States of Water

[Mysteryman]

Not long ago, I was in a conversation with an indivudal about the states of solids, liquids, and gases.

For the most part, when talking about certain objects of substance. We found no disagreements with things such gas, which when compressed and become a liquid. Or solids, such as coal or wood, which is a solid, which can only become a gas. Which means that it has only two states 1. a solid 2. a gas. Just like gas , which has two states 1. a gas 2. a liquid.

Where we finally came into a disagreement, was when we talked about water. :yes

I porceeded to ask this individual as to why water would be any different than a gas or a solid. And why did he think that water had more than two states. Well, to say the least, we could not come to an agreement.

Basically, what this converstaion boiled down too, was this. He claims, as many others do as well, that water is either a liquid, or a solid or a gas.

What I tried to explain to this indivdual, was that the defining statement is such that there is all kinds of confusion about this . It is said, that water has three forms or states 1. liquid 2. solid and 3. a gaseous state. Which btw those with a PHD uphold is true, that water is in three states. I told him how I disagree with this type of thinking/reasoning.

One molecule of water is still H2O and when warm or hot, it is still a liquid in a type of vapor. You no longer can see it with you physical eyes. But nonetheless, it is still a liquid.

On the other side of the picture, one molecule of water , still being H2O, when below freezing is fozen water or a solid, which we would call a crystal.

The individual I was talking with constantly kept to his belief. Which is fine for the most part. But here is where the confusion comes in. He would call water 1. liquid 2. solid and 3. a gas

Well, one molecule of water is not a gas. Never has been and never will be. It is still H2O a water molecule. Either in a liquid form or a frozen form.

I believe that this should be revised, in that water is not in a "gaseous state". The truth is, it is not. It is a vapor, that can not be seen with the physical eye. Certain circumstances proves this to be true. When you see a plane high up in the sky. That which you see is a trail of vapor. The heat of the engines condenses the vapor, making the vapor visible. The same hold true when you have a dehumidifier in your house. It condenses the vapor = water molecules , back into a visible form. Once you condense the water molecules. What you are doing is bringing them together into a larger more visible size. An example of this would be, if you take two drops of water, small drops, and put them on a surface that is flexible, and bring the two small drops so close to each other that they touch. The two then become one - Larger water drop. There are positive and negative charges in a water molecule, so they attrack to each other when condensed. The fuse to make bigger drops of H2O. They then become visible to the physical eye.

Anyone agree or disagree ? Or maybe someone would like to expand upon this maybe better than I have ?

Enjoy the reading, and I am looking forward to any and all comments.

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[stovebolts]

When you see a plane high up in the sky. That which you see is a trail of vapor.

I thought those were contrails :D :biglaugh Don't take that seriously

I'm trying to wrap my head around your thoghts... Let me see if I have this right. H20 remains H20 regardless of it's state (solid, liquid, gas) Am I right so far?

It would seem true then, that a gas could also become a liquid (propane for example) and if put in the right environment, could also become a solid relative to pressure and temperature.

Where I see issue, is when a solid turns into a liquid or a gas. Lets take a piece of wood for example. When it changes state, it changes chemistry right?

Of course, I'm not up on too much science in this area, but I find it facinating.
Let me know if I have this right, partially right, or completly wrong
Jeff

 

[TonyB]

Not long ago, I was in a conversation with an indivudal about the states of solids, liquids, and gases.

I'm confused. I thought solid, liquid, and gas were the states? Can solids have different states?

What I'm seeing in a quick search is that matter has 4 different states: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma.

So it's matter (water being a type of matter) that's in a specific state, not a state that's in a specific state. Right?

I do know water is different though, because typically when something is frozen, it becomes more dense, whereas water expands.

 

[Mysteryman]

When you see a plane high up in the sky. That which you see is a trail of vapor.

I thought those were contrails :D :biglaugh Don't take that seriously

I'm trying to wrap my head around your thoghts... Let me see if I have this right. H20 remains H20 regardless of it's state (solid, liquid, gas) Am I right so far?

It would seem true then, that a gas could also become a liquid (propane for example) and if put in the right environment, could also become a solid relative to pressure and temperature.

Where I see issue, is when a solid turns into a liquid or a gas. Lets take a piece of wood for example. When it changes state, it changes chemistry right?

Of course, I'm not up on too much science in this area, but I find it facinating.
Let me know if I have this right, partially right, or completly wrong
Jeff

Hi Jeff

Interesting , is it not ? LOL

Knowledge of something is very interesting, in that, the more the knowledge the more the understanding. For instance, you asked if when wood is burned does the chemistry change ? The answer is no, the chemistry does not change, it is released. The full make up of wood, once totally burned releases all of its chemistry back to a gas/gases.

You can compress the gas oxygen into a container. As long as the compression ratio is not greater than its ability to maintain a gas state, it remains a gas. However, if compressed with enough pressure, it then turns into a liquid.

Water under heat, evaporates, and becomes a vapor. Still in molecule state , being a liquid, because of the heat. I forget the exact temp. of heat that it would take, I think it is over 4000 degrees, at which point the chemistry of water H2O is released back to H - H - O, and no longer is water, but is these three gases - H - H - O.

Once the energy of any substance is released, for instance buring wood. The chemistry is released, and will not become wood again from that chemistry. The same with water, once the H - H - O is released.

Wood, say a fallen tree in the forest. It dies and decays and becomes fertilizer and can become a tree once again if a new growing seedling uses its energy from the decaying matter.

Liquid propane is another example of poor pronunciation of its charector. I use LP in my home. And inside of my tank is liquid, which turns to a gas ( Excuse me !! gaseous state) which is still a liquid. < See my point ? And its energy is not 'released' until it is burned. Some will say that it will evaporate and then it is gone. Not so ! Its energy is still within the atmosphere and its chemistry is still in tact.

Oxygen compressed is flamable. Oxygen just released is still oxygen. But if you burn it, the chemistry is released and can not be recovered back to its original state.

Water is such that it goes in cycles. This is why we get rain . Water is constantly on the move. Either being condenses or evaporated, then condensed once again, and the cycle goes on over and over. But not after you seperate the H - H - O. So water is not a gas, but only can be in a gaseous state < and I dislike the use of the phrase. It is just vapor. But man wanted to give it a picture perfect visual title to it, so they called it a gaseous state. Which is like saying, we can't see it but we know it is there.

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[Mysteryman]

Not long ago, I was in a conversation with an indivudal about the states of solids, liquids, and gases.

I'm confused. I thought solid, liquid, and gas were the states? Can solids have different states?

What I'm seeing in a quick search is that matter has 4 different states: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma.

So it's matter (water being a type of matter) that's in a specific state, not a state that's in a specific state. Right?

I do know water is different though, because typically when something is frozen, it becomes more dense, whereas water expands.

Hi Tony

It is my understanding that "plasma" is not a state. At least from a definintional POV. For instance, if you take gold and heat it to around 250,000 times the heat of the sun, then gold turns into a plasma, which means it is not gold anymore. Gold can only be a liquid or a solid in these two states and still be gold.

Yes, the three states are a liquid , solid, and a gas, of which in my research, can only be in two states of their own. Like oxygen, which can only be a gas or a liquid.

:yes

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[TonyB]

Yes, the three states are a liquid , solid, and a gas, of which in my research, can only be in two states of their own. Like oxygen, which can only be a gas or a liquid.

So, what are the two states of a liquid, for example?

 

[stovebolts]

That's very interesting MM.

I think you and my older brother would get along well. He's always tinkering and inventing stuff based on what you've just described.

Awhile back, he was explaining how a heat pump worked, and why some pumps are well over 300% efficient on what they return in relation to the energy used. For me, it was amazing that you could extract energy out of something frozen and utilize that energy to heat a home.

 

[Mysteryman]

Yes, the three states are a liquid , solid, and a gas, of which in my research, can only be in two states of their own. Like oxygen, which can only be a gas or a liquid.

So, what are the two states of a liquid, for example?

Liquids can be a liquid or a solid. But some liquids can be a liquid and a gas

For instance - using the simple one first -- water can be a liquid or a solid

A more difficult one would be liquid oxygen, which can be a liquid or a gas

 

[Mysteryman]

That's very interesting MM.

I think you and my older brother would get along well. He's always tinkering and inventing stuff based on what you've just described.

Awhile back, he was explaining how a heat pump worked, and why some pumps are well over 300% efficient on what they return in relation to the energy used. For me, it was amazing that you could extract energy out of something frozen and utilize that energy to heat a home.

Yes that is very interesting.

One example that comes to mind would be with our new technology. WE use conventional methods to heat our homes. Like wood, coal, fuel oil, or propane. We call these combustionables, which gives off heat.

Today, if I can explain this with any clarity, we have thermo conversion heating. Dig a deep well, and we use the consistant very cool water down at those depths, to convert energy back into heat through a conversion heating system, by using the water that is a constant 40 degrees. I wish I could explain it better than this. But basically, we use heat , such as fuel oil to burn and get heat from. Whereas we use very cool water to get the same results with in conversion. < This might be what your brother is basically talking about.

I was a dairy farmer most of my life. Milk from a cow is approx. 90 + degrees. And we need to store that milk and cool it down to approx 36 degrees for longer life before it starts to deterorate. WE used a conversion method for cooling our milk. In that our gas compressors would run and cool the milk. How this works, is that the gas is cool before the compressor comes on. The milk is warm. As the milk is cooled, it extracts the heat and makes the gas very hot. How this works , is that the warm milk is not making the gas hot. The gas within its cooling process produces alot of heat when in motion. This heat is then extracted by cooling fans that blows over the coils. During our very cold winters, this "heat" is a great source for heating our milkhouses. The milk is in a stainless steel tank. So two things are happening here. One, we are cooling the milk, and two we are generating heat for the milk house. Like killing two birds with one stone. :crazy

IN Christ - MM

 

[jasoncran]

plasma is the 4th state of matter, this happens each time lighting strikes the earth, or cloud.

plasma cutting cause steel to evaporate and turn into a gas. it doesnt really cut, it rathers heats to the state of evaporation

the physical states of matter, arent chemical changes.

 

[jasoncran]

link on that

http://pluto.space.swri.edu/image/glossary/plasma.html

water in the air as vapor is a gas not liquid other wise automotive radiators and ac consendors and evapators wouldnt work very well. especially the later, it takes the heat out of the water thus producing that water that is drained from the evaporator housing.

 

[Mysteryman]

link on that

http://pluto.space.swri.edu/image/glossary/plasma.html

water in the air as vapor is a gas not liquid other wise automotive radiators and ac consendors and evapators wouldnt work very well. especially the later, it takes the heat out of the water thus producing that water that is drained from the evaporator housing.

Thats the myth

Vapor is not a gas, it is vapor and that is all it is. Even as a vapor, even one molecule of water is still H2O = water. It is either a liquid or a crystal (solid). From the sky, from clouds, we either get rain, or snow, or freezing rain. Snow is a crystal form of a solid, as is also freezing rain , such as hail. Not to be mistaken, the definition of freezing rain is rain, and then freezes when it come in contact with a surface that is below freezing, and the air temp is also below freezing. The air temp above is above freezing with freezing rain, which is why it comes down as rain.

In a radiator, the water is kept condensed until it enters the radiator. It is cooled very quickly down below 160 or 170 degrees. This is why your car or truck has either 160 or 170 temp thermosates. It releases the water after thte temp reaches this temp. and goes directly to the radiator. Never allowing it to reach 212 degrees.

This is why there is so much dispute on this subject. Most of which is just misunderstanding.

IN Christ - MM

 

[jasoncran]

so are you saying that water doesnt steam? proof please,what state is that. steam. gas or solid or???

uh my ford ranger has a thermostat that runs the engine 192 degrees, not 160. my nissan has a 170
the thermostat is what regulates the temp, not the radiator.

you, my friend are confusing states of matter with chemical changes. in a gasous state water is still h20.btw several acids emit vapors.

h2so4,(hydrosulfuric acid), and then hcl(clorine,) and muriatic acid. those are vapors. look up the msds on those.

water by its nature of movement will shear off molecular bonds(H) and those will then reform. water is easy to use to get acids out of. electroylisis.

In a radiator, the water is kept condensed until it enters the radiator. It is cooled very quickly down below 160 or 170 degrees. This is why your car or truck has either 160 or 170 temp thermosates. It releases the water after thte temp reaches this temp. and goes directly to the radiator. Never allowing it to reach 212 degrees

you contradict yourself there, if water is condensed then it must be in a state of a gas.

 

[Mysteryman]

so are you saying that water doesnt steam? proof please,what state is that. steam. gas or solid or???

uh my ford ranger has a thermostat that runs the engine 192 degrees, not 160. my nissan has a 170
the thermostat is what regulates the temp, not the radiator.

you, my friend are confusing states of matter with chemical changes. in a gasous state water is still h20.btw several acids emit vapors.

h2so4,(hydrosulfuric acid), and then hcl(clorine,) and muriatic acid. those are vapors. look up the msds on those.

water by its nature of movement will shear off molecular bonds(H) and those will then reform. water is easy to use to get acids out of. electroylisis.

In a radiator, the water is kept condensed until it enters the radiator. It is cooled very quickly down below 160 or 170 degrees. This is why your car or truck has either 160 or 170 temp thermosates. It releases the water after thte temp reaches this temp. and goes directly to the radiator. Never allowing it to reach 212 degrees

you contradict yourself there, if water is condensed then it must be in a state of a gas.

Of course water steams - LOL -- But that occurs at over 212 degrees. It natually evaporates just sitting in a pan at room temp. also. The atmosphere acts like a spong, in that water will evaporate.

Your vehicle is still running below 212

No, condensing under low pressure will not turn water into a gaseous state. Within the engine it is a sealed area. Nowhere for the water to escape. Thus, what I mean by condense, is that water when heated wants to expand . Especially when heated to high temps, nearing 212 degrees. The system keeps it condensed, or keeps it from expanding. Only when it returns to the radiator is that possible. But , it cools down quickly, and especially with coolants that are added.

And that is my point ! Water can be in a gaseous state, but the fact remains, that it is not a gas, nor is it in a state. So the usage of the explanation is incorrect. But people constantly use it this way. Hence , just as you did, people make the mistake and tell others that water , when it becomes vapor , then becomes a gas. It is neither a gas, nor in any state.

The three states, are - gas, liquid, or a solid

Water is always water, and never is a gas until you seperate the H H O from one another. Then it is no longer water. It is only three forms of a gas - two of which are H and one which is O and they are not together anymore as one unit. And my research told me that water would have to be heated over 4000 degrees before the three gases seperate.

Water is still water, when it is in one of the two states -- either a 1. Liquid or 2. a Solid

There is no other state by which water can still be water. In a vapor, you loose sight of it. But it is still there. It still is H2O.

Enjoy the conversation

IN Christ - MM

 

[jasoncran]

a steam engine uses pressurised water to move the turbine , if its a liquid then it cant be pressurized.

liquids can have pressure exerted on them and they dont compress but they are under pressure.

hydraulics is a good example of this, pump exterts force to move the fluid in question via positive displacement. that puts pressure on the cylinders to move once the valve to move is opened

a steam engine doesn't operate like that, heat is used to created steam then the steam moves up to piping and its held to a pressure until it build up then its used to move the turbine. and controlled by venting the excessive steam.

automotive water pumps generally dont create pressure , they are vane pumps.

steam is h20, added energy doesnt change the chemistry. water is used to absorb heat, it is in the air and upon contact with a cooler mass it contracts,and you get condesation. the radiator and ac condensor work similiar, . the radiator lets it out. the condensor allows the freon to realease its heat and return to the state of a high pressure liquid. then the expansion valve causes it to change states

 

[jasoncran]

the pressure that is caused in the coolant system is caused by the pressure cap. the coolant does expand and it isnt allowed to evaporate but that is done so that system wont overheat. the cap is designed to help the engine to maintain the proper temp as if a cap is bad coolant will leak via evaporation. that's what you are refering to.

but the radiator will use the heat from the block to transfer to the air, how and what is accepting the heat, water for the most part. I live in Florida we get humidities as high 99.00% and no rain. this will cause a slightly higher temp on cars that are painted black. and also will affect the ac as the already hot air cant asbord as much heat.

i am ase certified in ac and cooling, this is taught to me in college.

 

[Mysteryman]

a steam engine uses pressurised water to move the turbine , if its a liquid then it cant be pressurized.

liquids can have pressure exerted on them and they dont compress but they are under pressure.

hydraulics is a good example of this, pump exterts force to move the fluid in question via positive displacement. that puts pressure on the cylinders to move once the valve to move is opened

a steam engine doesn't operate like that, heat is used to created steam then the steam moves up to piping and its held to a pressure until it build up then its used to move the turbine. and controlled by venting the excessive steam.

automotive water pumps generally dont create pressure , they are vane pumps.

steam is h20, added energy doesnt change the chemistry. water is used to absorb heat, it is in the air and upon contact with a cooler mass it contracts,and you get condesation. the radiator and ac condensor work similiar, . the radiator lets it out. the condensor allows the freon to realease its heat and return to the state of a high pressure liquid. then the expansion valve causes it to change states

For the most part, you are agreeing with me here.

The reason a steam engine works, is because the steam is held in a contained area. Steam wants to expand. Not allowing it to expand beyond the walls of its containment, it build up pressure. It is still a liquid though. In its expanded form. Heat does this to water, it expands . Condense it and it then becomes a more noticable liquid, not unnoticable.

Yes, I know how freon works. I was a dairy farmer , so I know how hydralic cylinders work and how freon works. Like freon, it is either a gas or a liquid, right ?

Why would you think that water is any different ?

Water at its high temp is a vapor which is still a liquid in its most minute form. Water when frozen, is condensed down to its least form. What makes ice seem to expand is that it is taking in air as it freezes. This is why it floats. Ice is not solid - solid. Ice has different densities. Less air, more dense. more air, less dense.

Water heated , the molecules are moving very quickly. Frozen the are slowed down tremdously.

It still "boils"down to the fact that was in not a gas in a vapor form. Its just vapor , or expanded liquid.

IN Christ - MM

 

[jasoncran]

no, it is a gas, freon evaporates at -22.7 C if you take it and and open the drum it comes out as a a gas and will expand further(it is a gas as it cant be put in the low side in a liquid state)or the hydrolocking of the compressor will occur.also freon will come out as a liquid and evaporate quickly those seen as a mist but it changes. that we agree
so when steam is rising is that gas or liquid rememer a cloud has water held in a gas and it condenses when the dust in the air causes it to condense large enough to become to heavy to drop the earth. it is a natural condensor in the atmosphere.

can you compresse a liquid, prove that one. that is where you are failing. hydraulics exert pressure on a liquid to transfer power, ie plancks law.

an air compressor compressed as gas into a tank much like the steam thing you describes in that tank until the air it cant expand anymore. ie the tank has a set pressure limit before it explodes and a valve shuts off the compressor via relieve pressure or killing the motor. that is exactly what you describe steam as putting a vapor in a tank that is holding the vapor(gas) until a pressure is obtained. you have defeated your self there

answer this does a liquid in an engine cause hydrolocking? if the water in the air is a liquid the why isnt the car engine hydrolocking?

 

[jasoncran]

define a gas and a liquid and a solid please?

 

[Mysteryman]

define a gas and a liquid and a solid please?

We need to have a starting point , agreed ?

Lets start with a liquid, since my OP was about water specifically.

One molecule of water, just one, is still H2O, which is the make up of water, agreed ?

And, you can not see with your physical eyes one molecule of water, agreed ?

One molecule of water H2O is not a gas, agreed ?

IN Christ - MM