Stoned to death

[JLB]

Jesus said not to stone the adulteress woman.
Then has God changed??
NO!

No, God has not changed, the law changed, because the Priesthood changed.

We are not under the Levitical priesthood.


Our High Priest is Jesus Christ, Who is after the order of Melchizedek.


For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12


We are not governed by the law of Moses, but by the law of Christ.


Now, we are held to a higher standard, because we have been given more than them; The Spirit of Christ in us.



Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29




JLB

 

[JLB]

Wondering, I noticed that you use the pronoun "we" when speaking of OT law.

Yes the law of Moses was for the natural descendants of Abraham, who dwelled in the promised land; The land that the Lord swore to Abraham, to give his descendants.


This law governed their lives in that land.

This law was a dividing wall between Jew and Gentile.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I’m about to add another section to this Forum called:

The Law verses The Covenant.

In this section we will discuss the law of Moses and The Covenant of Abraham and how the Abrahamic Covenant was renewed and became the New Covenant.


I believe clarity in this subject is much needed in the body of Christ today.


God bless you.



JLB

 

[Susannah]

What first attracted me to Jesus was the fact that he practiced the "spirit of the law," not the "letter of the law." He put love first. This is very important to me. This doctrine restores my faith in a God I almost rejected. Praise the Lord.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering, I noticed that you use the pronoun "we" when speaking of OT law. Wasn't the Mosaic law given to one special group of people, God's chosen, Israel? And, when Jesus came, was that law not fulfilled in Him, therefore, we who are in Christ are not held captive by that law?

Yes, the Mosaic Law was given to a specific set of people.
It depends what you mean by fulfilled...
If you mean the 603 laws,,,yes.
If you mean the 10 commandments...No...in the sense that ALL was fulfilled by Jesus because He perfectly fulfilled God's requirements...
However, all the laws were abolished except the 10.

As to the we....
Let me take a look....

Here's what I said:

In the Mosaic Covenant we ...meaning the 1 receive the 10 commandments,,plus there are other laws which total 613 in total.
God gave the Israelites these laws because they had been in slavery for almost 400 years and no longer had a sense of community.

We say that these laws were necessary to show that man is a sinner and indeed they were. But they were also necessary to teach these freed persons how to live a normal life again and to know that rules had to be followed.

There's a whole number of rules in Numbers that truly makes one wonder if they are God-inspired....This is not my concept but one that many theologians accept.

I am not a fundamental christian and allow for errors in the bible, contradictions, and I understand that not every word is directly from God. This does not affect my belief in God or my trust in Him...it actually has helped me to clear up many problems.
We do not even know for sure who wrote the Torah. This creates no problem for me since it's really difficult to know who wrote something 4 thousand years ago...But I also acknowledge that the O.T. is the most proven book of all time.

So the Mosaic Covenant did not work although God always poured out His grace on persons and they were always saved through faith.

In the New Covenant what changes is that obedience to God and having a new heart to serve Him becomes POSSIBLE through Jesus and the on-going help from the Holy Spirit.

I really would rather not get into this too much as I do not want to discourage anyone who may be new at Christianity...however, this understanding of the O.T. does answer many questions that come up when studying.

I hope JLB also sees this.

Jesus revealed God Father.
A God of love, mercy and justice.

Jesus said not to stone the adulteress woman.
Then has God changed??
NO!

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering, I noticed that you use the pronoun "we" when speaking of OT law. Wasn't the Mosaic law given to one special group of people, God's chosen, Israel? And, when Jesus came, was that law not fulfilled in Him, therefore, we who are in Christ are not held captive by that law?

Yes, the Mosaic Law was given to a specific set of people.
It depends what you mean by fulfilled...
If you mean the 603 laws,,,yes.
If you mean the 10 commandments...No...in the sense that ALL was fulfilled by Jesus because He perfectly fulfilled God's requirements...
However, all the laws were abolished except the 10.

As to the we....
Let me take a look....

Here's what I said:

In the Mosaic Covenant we ...meaning the 10 commandments, which are for all of us even today. receive the 10 commandments,,plus there are other laws which total 613 in total.
God gave the Israelites these laws because they had been in slavery for almost 400 years and no longer had a sense of community.

We ....meaning what we Christians understand the reason for the laws at Sinai. say that these laws were necessary to show that man is a sinner and indeed they were. But they were also necessary to teach these freed persons how to live a normal life again and to know that rules had to be followed.

There's a whole number of rules in Numbers that truly makes one wonder if they are God-inspired....This is not my concept but one that many theologians accept.

I am not a fundamental christian and allow for errors in the bible, contradictions, and I understand that not every word is directly from God. This does not affect my belief in God or my trust in Him...it actually has helped me to clear up many problems.
We do not even know for sure who wrote the Torah. This creates no problem for me since it's really difficult to know who wrote something 4 thousand years ago...But I also acknowledge that the O.T. is the most proven book of all time.

So the Mosaic Covenant did not work although God always poured out His grace on persons and they were always saved through faith.

In the New Covenant what changes is that obedience to God and having a new heart to serve Him becomes POSSIBLE through Jesus and the on-going help from the Holy Spirit.

I really would rather not get into this too much as I do not want to discourage anyone who may be new at Christianity...however, this understanding of the O.T. does answer many questions that come up when studying.

I hope JLB also sees this.

Jesus revealed God Father.
A God of love, mercy and justice.

Jesus said not to stone the adulteress woman.
Then has God changed??
NO!


I think that explains the we's....

 

[GodsGrace]

No, God has not changed, the law changed, because the Priesthood changed.

We are not under the Levitical priesthood.


Our High Priest is Jesus Christ, Who is after the order of Melchizedek.


For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12


We are not governed by the law of Moses, but by the law of Christ.


Now, we are held to a higher standard, because we have been given more than them; The Spirit of Christ in us.



Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29




JLB

If you call it the Law of Moses....
You won't get any argument from me !

 

[Susannah]

"I understand that not every word is directly from God. . ."

Thank your for this. I thought I was alone out there on a branch that was about to break. I have been looking for a Christian home where they were open minded about such things since I left when I was 12.

 

[GodsGrace]

What first attracted me to Jesus was the fact that he practiced the "spirit of the law," not the "letter of the law." He put love first. This is very important to me. This doctrine restores my faith in a God I almost rejected. Praise the Lord.

The letter of the law kills us.
2 Corinthians 3:6
6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


It makes us labor with no inner force to deal with what we must do ... whatever that may be. We lack the spirit of God necessary...

The spirit of the Law give life because we do what we must with the spirit we have that is in tune with the spirit of God and this is what gives us the inner force to forge ahead and face life.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’m about to add another section to this Forum called:

The Law verses The Covenant.

In this section we will discuss the law of Moses and The Covenant of Abraham and how the Abrahamic Covenant was renewed and became the New Covenant.


I believe clarity in this subject is much needed in the body of Christ today.


God bless you.



JLB

Just remember that the law was a covenant.

 

[Susannah]

I look forward to the new thread . . .

When I was being prepared for my Baptism, my pastor said this. Is he right?

The Bible says "the wages of sin is death." So there is a cause and effect. A law that has to be fulfilled. So to balance the scale Christ died in our place for our sins. Then we were forgiven by his sacrifice and get a second chance.

Is this the New Covenant? I sure need forgiveness. I am, indeed, a sinner.

 

[GodsGrace]

I look forward to the new thread . . .

When I was being prepared for my Baptism, my pastor said this. Is he right?

The Bible says "the wages of sin is death." So there is a cause and effect. A law that has to be fulfilled. So to balance the scale Christ died in our place for our sins. Then we were forgiven by his sacrifice and get a second chance.

Is this the New Covenant? I sure need forgiveness. I am, indeed, a sinner.

Christ dying in our place for our sins is a theory of atonement.
There are different Atonement theories.
This one that you mentioned is called the Penal Substitution Theory.

For a concise and good explanation of about 7...
see:

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

It's easy and good reading and you'll learn a lot quickly.
You'll find that each theory has some element of truth.
I don't know of one that includes ALL truth.

 

[WIP]

However, all the laws were abolished except the 10.

Not abolished, fulfilled.
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."
Matthew 5:17 NKJV

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Matthew 22:37-40 NKJV

I wonder if these above two laws were also fulfilled in Jesus for the above reference was His answer to the lawyer who asked what the greatest commandment in the law was and then He said all the law and the prophets hang on these two laws. But Jesus also said He came to fulfill the law.

So now He issued a new commandment to his disciples.
34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 13:34-35 NKJV

 

[GodsGrace]

Not abolished, fulfilled.
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."
Matthew 5:17 NKJV

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Matthew 22:37-40 NKJV

I wonder if these above two laws were also fulfilled in Jesus for the above reference was His answer to the lawyer who asked what the greatest commandment in the law was and then He said all the law and the prophets hang on these two laws. But Jesus also said He came to fulfill the law.

So now He issued a new commandment to his disciples.
34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 13:34-35 NKJV

Right,,,as I clarified in my post to you, Jesus fulfilled all the law by being perfectly obedient to God ... only He was able to do this and so HE is our propitiation or atonement.

However, some of the law WAS abolished.
The ceremonial law was abolished.
The civil law was abolished.

These laws no longer exist.

ONLY the Moral Law is still in effect...this would be the 10 commandments.

As to the 2 Great Commandments...
On these hangs the law because, as you well know, if we follow these two commandments, all of the 10 are being obeyed.

And Jesus did stress love....
Love covers a multitude of sins.
1 Peter 4:8

If we all just really loved each other...
there would be no need for any law.

I do believe Jesus worked in His ministry to accomplish this goal by preaching and teaching the Kingdom of God (here).
Matthew 4:17

 

[WIP]

Right,,,as I clarified in my post to you, Jesus fulfilled all the law by being perfectly obedient to God ... only He was able to do this and so HE is our propitiation or atonement.

However, some of the law WAS abolished.
The ceremonial law was abolished.
The civil law was abolished.

These laws no longer exist.

ONLY the Moral Law is still in effect...this would be the 10 commandments.

As to the 2 Great Commandments...
On these hangs the law because, as you well know, if we follow these two commandments, all of the 10 are being obeyed.

And Jesus did stress love....
Love covers a multitude of sins.
1 Peter 4:8

If we all just really loved each other...
there would be no need for any law.

I do believe Jesus worked in His ministry to accomplish this goal by preaching and teaching the Kingdom of God (here).
Matthew 4:17

The way I understand Jesus' words, He didn't come to destroy any of the law but to fulfill the law. The law required sacrifice and Jesus fulfilled or made complete that sacrifice once and for all, therefore, the purposes of the law are no longer required for those in Christ have been redeemed.

 

[for_his_glory]

Being stoned to death by the laws written in the Torah is similar to capitol punishment today, especially that of the crime of murder that God establish in Genesis 9:6. The only thing is today many have become desensitized to what is right or wrong by their unaware acts of evil and try to justify sin by man's standards and laws, but yet forsake God's commands.

IMO since I can not find any scripture that stoning to death has ended. All I can think of is that under the better covenant of God's grace through Christ Jesus and the greatest commandment of love now fulfills the law of stoning one to death. Romans 13:10.

This does not mean that crimes should not be punished against the malice and forethought of the motive of a person as the only laws that have been fulfilled by Christ are those that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah , Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. The moral laws have never changed in how we are to be obedient to God's commands within the moral laws.

 

[Susannah]

Amen!

 

[OzSpen]

I don't understand Numbers 35:31 then:
New American Standard Bible
'Moreover, you shall not take ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death."

Doesn't the above say that we CANNOT take a ransom??

As to the two covenants:
I have to assume that we're talking about the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

In the Mosaic Covenant we receive the 10 commandments,,plus there are other laws which total 613 in total.
God gave the Israelites these laws because they had been in slavery for almost 400 years and no longer had a sense of community.

We say that these laws were necessary to show that man is a sinner and indeed they were. But they were also necessary to teach these freed persons how to live a normal life again and to know that rules had to be followed.

There's a whole number of rules in Numbers that truly makes one wonder if they are God-inspired....This is not my concept but one that many theologians accept.

I am not a fundamental christian and allow for errors in the bible, contradictions, and I understand that not every word is directly from God. This does not affect my belief in God or my trust in Him...it actually has helped me to clear up many problems.
We do not even know for sure who wrote the Torah. This creates no problem for me since it's really difficult to know who wrote something 4 thousand years ago...But I also acknowledge that the O.T. is the most proven book of all time.

So the Mosaic Covenant did not work although God always poured out His grace on persons and they were always saved through faith.

In the New Covenant what changes is that obedience to God and having a new heart to serve Him becomes POSSIBLE through Jesus and the on-going help from the Holy Spirit.

I really would rather not get into this too much as I do not want to discourage anyone who may be new at Christianity...however, this understanding of the O.T. does answer many questions that come up when studying.

I hope JLB also sees this.

Jesus revealed God Father.
A God of love, mercy and justice.

Jesus said not to stone the adulteress woman.
Then has God changed??
NO!

wondering,

I think the NIV rendering helps clear it up for me:

30 ‘“Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

​

31 ‘“Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. They are to be put to death (Num 35:30-31 NIV).​

​

The punishment for a murderer, based on testimonies of more than one witness, was capital punishment, for which no ransom could be accepted. The permanent punishment was the death of the murderer.

There's a whole number of rules in Numbers that truly makes one wonder if they are God-inspired....This is not my concept but one that many theologians accept.

This generic 'many theologians' is not helpful in a discussion. Please quote them by name and give references so I can follow them up.

There is a good discussion of some of the difficulties in the Book of Numbers in Gleason Archer, Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (online), pp. 129-134.

We do not even know for sure who wrote the Torah. This creates no problem for me since it's really difficult to know who wrote something 4 thousand years ago

That is not my conclusion after studying this for decades. See my response to the JEDP authorship of the Pentateuch in: JEDP Documentary Hypothesis refuted

Jesus said not to stone the adulteress woman.
Then has God changed??
NO!

This is a demonstration of the change from the 'rules' of the Old Covenant to the 'rules' of the New Covenant. It has nothing to do with God changing, but with God's dispensation changing as we move to the climax of history and Jesus' Second Coming.

Oz

 

[Christ the King]

Thanks

 

[Christ_empowered]

hi. me, the recovering gay dude...who would have qualified for the death penalty under Leviticus. --Grace-- , my friends, --Grace-- .

The OT laws were imperfect. Remember Jesus, talking about divorce? He laid down --God's rules-- and pointed out that the OT law was crafted taking into account '...the hardness of their hearts... ,' or something to that effect. and so...

with His Crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, THE LORD fulfilled OT law, and all those who come to truly believe upon Him need not fear being stoned for sodomy or adultery or finding themselves set aside to make way for a newer, younger bride...

because God reveals His --true nature-- in God made Flesh, THE LORD. lowly and poor, also...God...miracle worker, killed by those He came to save...

all part of the plan, it seems.