Stupid Question

[Oats]

How can freewill and predestination both exist?
I have some clue...

 

[ORwarriOR]

Hrm! I believe we have a certain amount of free will. And that free will usually leads to either consequences or rewards. But I believe that when we start to stray from our destiny the holy spirit intervenes to keep everything on track.

Either way, whether or not we actually have free will it certainly feels like it, and that's good enough for me.

 

[Danus]

There is no such thing as "could have", "should have", to determine what is or what will be .....there is only what was, what is, and what will be.

Free will is what was and what is. Predestination is what will be. We only know what was....We do not know what will be, but we can shape it only by what is.

 

[DrFrank]

Re: Unsettled Question

Not stupid at all,in fact it's so profound that theologians through the ages have never sorted it out.Jesus periodically made references to people such as His Disciples who God chose for salvation but it makes no sense to me to believe that the only persons who can be saved are those whom God has already selected.While predestination seems to be limited,free will is not;even the chosen can reject God anytime they wish and walk away from Him as far as they wish.This type of free will fulfills God's plan to test all of us to determine our willingness to obey Him and live in peace and forgiveness with others.

He doesn't want to have to live with a bunch of Sabbath day football fans for all of eternity!

 

[HisSheep]

Re: Unsettled Question

Oats!

As one of the Calvinists here, I’ll take a stab at this one. As DrFrank said, this is not a stupid question at all. Typically, we think of a stupid question as one to which everyone knows the answer. This question is one of the great theological paradoxes. There are perfectly honest Christians on either side of this heated debate that has raged on for centuries. I don’t know you, but I’m pretty sure you’re asking this question for one of two reasons. Either you detest the doctrine of election and hope to challenge it for sheer amusement, or you’re actually curious. Either way, I’ll honor your question as one of noble intentions.

In a nutshell: We have free will to act as we like on Earth, but we cannot affect our final destination.

We (the truly faithful) are children of God and we cannot change that; it is beyond the ability of our will. We didn’t choose to have faith in the first place; no one does. God chooses His people; he always has. One cannot choose a God one doesn’t believe exists. No one would choose to reject the powerful pleasures of this world unless they are fully convinced of the promise of salvation. You may choose to go to church, but only God can give you a new heart and a new spirit:

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. (Ezekiel 36)

This new spirit, which we cannot command, compels us to choose God. So we do actually “choose God†in a manner of speaking. But we would not do so, unless moved by the Spirit. Calvinists believe that the Spirit cannot be denied. Theologians call this “effectual callingâ€. One of the verses that supports this view is found in Romans 8:

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

Under the New Covenant, God is not determining who His children are… He already knows that. He knows everything, because He has planned everything, absolutely everything from the beginning. See Psalm 139 for confirmation of this, and here is what God told Isaiah to tell us about it:

10I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: my purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11 From the East I summon a bird of prey; from a far off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do. (Isaiah 46)

Rather than determining who His sons are, He is revealing them:

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. (Romans 8:19)

In this life, God is raising up His adopted children to be like his only begotten Son, Jesus. During this maturation process (sanctification) we have free will. When our will (which is free) deviates from the will of God, we are chastened:

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? (Heb 12:7)

I am raising two daughters. They have free will; trust me on this. They may lie. They may steal. When they do, I chasten them because I love them. No matter how badly they choose to behave, they cannot choose not to be my daughters. That is beyond the power of their will because my love for them is unconditional. That they are my daughters was determined before they were born.

God’s purpose under the New Covenant is to conform our will to His will. He does not want to replace our will with His (He could if He thought it best), but to teach us that His will is superior to ours. Soon enough, our own free will begins to look more like God’s will. This is spiritual maturity. To facilitate this, He gives us a new heart and His Spirit (spiritual rebirth). This Spirit compels His chosen people to move in a Godward direction. (My own term – just made it up. Whadaya think?) Without the prodding of the Spirit, our corrupt will will lead us to make the wrong decisions all day long. It is a path that leads to destruction. Therefore, without the intervention of the Spirit, we are surely damned. God doesn’t give faith and the attendant Spirit to everyone. In this way He chooses whom He will save.

We learn from practice and guidance from the Spirit that our will is flawed. It is childish, unbridled, vain, and invariably leads to dissatisfaction and misery. Much like my daughters would find themselves if left to their own devices for even a few hours. They might enjoy themselves for a time, but where would they be in ten years? There is no real fulfillment in worldly pursuits whatsoever. Read the book ofEcclesiastes for confirmation of this truth.

The Old Testament prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, and Zechariah all used sheep as an analogy for God’s people whom God is going to gather and bring to the Promised Land. The Pharisees Jesus was addressing in John 10 knew the Old Testament well. It was no mistake or coincidence that Jesus referred to Himself as the Good Shepherd. He is gathering His sheep as we speak. Sheep have a will. They stray. They tack. They stop to graze. But under the guidance of a good shepherd, none are lost and they all arrive safely at the intended destination. The sheep do not determine the destination; it is simply not within their will.

So, you may choose to go to the strip club. You may choose to fornicate. You may choose to steal. You may cherish your idols. But if the Spirit of God is within you, you will learn to hate those things. You will begin to find them unfulfilling:

Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. (Ezekiel 36:31)

You will choose to purify yourself, and ultimately, you will end up in Heaven.

Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. (1John 3:3)

That’s how God does what he does because:

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6)

I hope I’ve made some sense of it for you.

In Christ,

-HisSheep

 

[Teach]

How can freewill and predestination both exist?
I have some clue...

The majority of verses in God's Word that mention predestination or intimate on the same are found within the context of Christ's work on the cross.

In other words, God can state that all those who believe in Christ have been predestined in Christ, and this not from the time of calvary but from before the foundation of the world, when the lamb was slain.

God is in no need of playing games with peoples lives, sending some to hell and some to heaven. God desired a relationship with other beings and in order for this to be genuine, free will must exist. However,free will also involves the possibility that we, like a third of the angels, decide to follow ourselves and our own selfish ways and thus reject God. Therefore God, as a rigtheous judge, must make accommodation (hell) for the rebellious in order to enjoy His relationship with the humble, the willing and the obedient.

Predestination is in Christ alone and cannot be preset or predetermined without Christ if not you can throw free will out the window and call yourself R2D2 and pray your not predetermined to go to hell. But then your prayers wouldn't mean anything, or change anything because it's all preset anyway.

Hope this helps.

Teach

 

[Oats]

Yeah...thanks it helps.
However it felt a bit condescending...I forgive you. I mean no sarcasm

I had some thoughts myself....I was just getting the opinion of others. I look at it like this....

Human Freewill = Finite
God's will along with predestination = Eternal

If you think along those lines then you'll get that...no mater what you do in the realm of time...God's eternal will always surpasses it.

Your freewill trumps your daughters to certain limit....so some of your choices might make her's null and void...much like with an animal.
Not that blessed children are animals...

So God being limitless...his will has no limits...predestination is within his will.

God Bless

 

[HisSheep]

Sorry Oats,

I meant no condescension. I don’t know how familiar you are with this topic, so I just served up the whole platter. I tend to be verbose anyway. I really don’t mean anything by it. A lot of the time, I am fleshing out my beliefs by posting on the forum. I learn a lot this way. I write a lot apart from the forum too. It gives me cause to dig into the Word, and writing helps me refine and retain the concepts I find there.

Plus, I don’t know how I sound when I type. Maybe I give the wrong impression? Maybe I should just shut up?

Anyway, I think you’re right on target. I wish you were a bit more verbose. Funny how that works…

-HisSheep

 

[Oats]

Sure...whatever you say

 

[HisSheep]

 

[Oats]

I'm sorry okay...just asking a question. I mean no disrespect.
Thanks

 

[ORwarriOR]

I've heard a few interesting universal reconciliation theories which line up with destinies and such; personally I'm starting to wonder if we're all destined for heaven, and hades is just the realm of the dead (which had been mistranslated as hell), in which the righteous are rewarded until judgment day and the wicked are punished to purge them from sin and to repent from all actions with remorse; take into consideration the parable of lazerus and the rich man here and notice the greek word of hell is translated from hades. lala I'll keep myself from delving into it here since it's off topic. But I think if you want to believe in predestination of any kind you have to take the whole package. I strongly believe in destiny and that all roads of life intertwine, and ultimately we might just end up in the same place.

I pray for the salvation of everyone; as should everyone else, regardless of whether or not you want to believe it. For Christ did say "Ask and you shall receive."

 

[LaMont Cranston]

I have a good friend who is a pastor with the United Church of Christ, and we have breakfast together twice a month. Whenever we get together, we talk about questions and issues related to interpreting the Bible.

Awhile back, I asked him about his take on free will, and he came back with a very interesting answer that works pretty well for me. He said that we have free will most of the time, but God has sort of a "wild card" that he can play. He said that would explain what happened to Saul of Tarses/Paul on the road to Damascus to torture more Christians.

If my friend is correct in his interpretation, it would mean that we do have free will, but God also has the capacity to intervene in our lives. It reminds me of that line from Hamlet, "There's a divinity that shapes our ends." If that's the way it is, that we have free will most of the time, and God is also there, I'm very grateful and happy for that arrangement!

 

[Teach]

Awhile back, I asked him about his take on free will, and he came back with a very interesting answer that works pretty well for me. He said that we have free will most of the time, but God has sort of a "wild card" that he can play. He said that would explain what happened to Saul of Tarses/Paul on the road to Damascus to torture more Christians.

I really this point of view, it allows for the free will of man, yet does not deny the Sovereignty of God. I still think that no matter what God does to attract us towards Him, there remains that one time millisecond moment when we must decide to turn towards Him or remain stubborn in our way and continue on without Him.

I must say that this understanding sits better with me than that of the Calvinist's T.U.L.I.P theory.

This new spirit, which we cannot command, compels us to choose God. So we do actually “choose God†in a manner of speaking. But we would not do so, unless moved by the Spirit. Calvinists believe that the Spirit cannot be denied. Theologians call this “effectual callingâ€.

This quote from HisSheep is what I'm talking about. It's the type of thinking I used to espouse which never really made sense. God "compels" us to choose yet we actually choose God in a manner of speaking.

You don't have free will yet you do but really in a manner speaking you don't. This type of rhetoric is meant not to offend the listener while still pressing its point. Instead of outrightly saying: "You have no free will." period. Calvinists say: You don't, but you do, but then you don't. It's wishy washy and makes no sense.

Another couple of things that really incense me about the T.U.L.I.P. theology of Calvinism is L. and P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

Limited Atonement is in direct contradiction with John (3:16) and makes it a farce for those who perish. It makes God a respecter of persons when really He is NOT, He is a respecter of Character.

Perseverance of the Saints OSAS is a lie of to devil to lull Christians into a false sense of assurance. Works and Obedience are important in our lives; they are the fruits of Repentance. Some Christians will be very surprised, after healing the sick and casting out devils, to find themselves before Jesus who will tell them to be removed because He never knew them. Very sobering thought unlike OSAS.
We can change our whole lives for God and be disobedient in one area, maybe we can’t give up the Internet Porn or we can’t forgive the individual who hurts us so badly or we constantly cheat on our taxes, WHATEVER, disobedience is rebellion against what God is asking us to do and that is as the sin of witchcraft. Furthermore, you will never get intimately close to the Father with sin in your life because to access God in the Holy of Holies of our hearts one must worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH. The truth is you can’t fool God. Intimacy is predicated on Truth with yourself and with God. How can we know Him when we are in rebellion? We end up knowing about Him. Satan knows about Him.

I could go on but I’ll leave it at that.
Hope this helps.

Teach

 

[HisSheep]

However,free will also involves the possibility that we, like a third of the angels, decide to follow ourselves and our own selfish ways and thus reject God.

The Bible is pretty clear about this, Teach. We are all entirely bad. We all fully deserve Hell. There is no one that does good, no one who seeks God. Nope, not one. Paul reiterated these OT points in Romans 3:

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

No one chooses God unless they are first enabled by the Father. (John 6:65) This aptitude for faith is solely the work of God the Father. In this way faith is the “free gift of Godâ€. (Eph 2:8) We have no role in our justification: It is the sole work of Christ. Our work doesn’t begin until our sanctification begins, immediately following our justification. Once we believe, then we want righteousness; but not until then.

Predestination is in Christ alone and cannot be preset or predetermined without Christ if not you can throw free will out the window and call yourself R2D2 and pray your not predetermined to go to hell. But then your prayers wouldn't mean anything, or change anything because it's all preset anyway.

… another “robot†analogy to try to discredit the doctrine of grace… Besides, those bound for destruction won’t pray. They don’t want salvation. They don’t fear God.

This new spirit, which we cannot command, compels us to choose God. So we do actually “choose God†in a manner of speaking. But we would not do so, unless moved by the Spirit. Calvinists believe that the Spirit cannot be denied. Theologians call this “effectual callingâ€.

This quote from HisSheep is what I'm talking about. It's the type of thinking I used to espouse which never really made sense. God "compels" us to choose yet we actually choose God in a manner of speaking.

It makes perfect sense. We are so corrupt that we can not choose Christ. Once we believe, our will will improve, but in order to begin that work in us, Christ chooses us.

Isaiah 64:
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and made us waste away because of our sins.

Ask yourself, which came first, your choice or your faith? Really... Think about it. Which came first? You must be taking some credit for your own salvation if you think you had anything to do with it. Apparently, Jesus gave you a hand up. Me, He saved. In my case, He did all the work and I give Him all the glory. He didn’t just give me an opportunity to save myself. He didn’t merely extend a hand that I could grab if I wanted to. He rescued me from certain destruction and I owe Him my life. By claiming a role in your salvation you are diminishing the grace of God:

Ephesians 2
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

He made us alive. God does the work of justification.

You don't have free will yet you do but really in a manner speaking you don't. This type of rhetoric is meant not to offend the listener while still pressing its point. Instead of outrightly saying: "You have no free will." period. Calvinists say: You don't, but you do, but then you don't. It's wishy washy and makes no sense.

There’s nothing wishy-washy here. Calvin wasn’t wishy washy either. You should really read his “Institutes.†You should refrain from commenting on his work until you have read it. Calvinists don’t believe that people have no free will. They believe that the human will is entirely bad (the Adam nature). Our will can be improved, but only by the intervention of God. To do this, the Spirit takes up residence within a man, and compels him to believe. Regeneration has begun. The rest of the believer’s life is like a training program in which our (free) will is conformed to that of God.

Philippians 2:

13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

The first step must be taken by God. That’s all. Otherwise, God would be our elect, instead of us being His elect.

For the record, I disagree with Calvin on infant baptism.

-HisSheep

 

[Teach]

However,free will also involves the possibility that we, like a third of the angels, decide to follow ourselves and our own selfish ways and thus reject God.

The Bible is pretty clear about this, Teach. We are all entirely bad. We all fully deserve Hell. There is no one that does good, no one who seeks God. Nope, not one. Paul reiterated these OT points in Romans 3:

I didn't say we were not sinners. I said we used the free will that God gave us to choose sin, like some angels did. Two thirds of the angels chose not to sin. Are you saying that God created two thirds to be good and on third to be bad? For what possible reason would He ever do such a thing, especially since God is good and in Him is no evil, neither can He create evil. Can both sweet and bitter water come from the same fount?

No one chooses God unless they are first enabled by the Father. (John 6:65) This aptitude for faith is solely the work of God the Father. In this way faith is the “free gift of Godâ€. (Eph 2:8) We have no role in our justification: It is the sole work of Christ. Our work doesn’t begin until our sanctification begins, immediately following our justification. Once we believe, then we want righteousness; but not until then.

I totally agree. But we are not talking about faith are we? We are talking about Free Will.

… another “robot†analogy to try to discredit the doctrine of grace… Besides, those bound for destruction won’t pray. They don’t want salvation. They don’t fear God.

Yeah I know the robot analogy is difficult to refute. Matter of fact can we refute it. When you do not have a choice or free will, then what are you?

Ask yourself, which came first, your choice or your faith? Really... Think about it. Which came first? You must be taking some credit for your own salvation if you think you had anything to do with it. Apparently, Jesus gave you a hand up. Me, He saved. In my case, He did all the work and I give Him all the glory. He didn’t just give me an opportunity to save myself. He didn’t merely extend a hand that I could grab if I wanted to. He rescued me from certain destruction and I owe Him my life. By claiming a role in your salvation you are diminishing the grace of God:

I've thought about it. When God creates anybody He gives them a Free will, the faculty of choice. He then also gives them enough faith to choose Him if they want to. He doesn't force our hand because if He did then there would be no need for free will.
I don't claim a role in my salvation I claim a choice in it. Even you had to open the door so that He could come in and sup with you. That wasn't a role, it was a choice to open the door. I just exercised the free will God gave me.

There’s nothing wishy-washy here. Calvin wasn’t wishy washy either. You should really read his “Institutes.†You should refrain from commenting on his work until you have read it. Calvinists don’t believe that people have no free will. They believe that the human will is entirely bad (the Adam nature). Our will can be improved, but only by the intervention of God. To do this, the Spirit takes up residence within a man, and compels him to believe. Regeneration has begun. The rest of the believer’s life is like a training program in which our (free) will is conformed to that of God.

That is the problem. Free will , the act of choosing towards good or bad is not in itself good or bad. It is a choice. Free will doesn't have a virtue (good) attached to it, nor does it have a non-virtue (evil) attached to it (evil).

If Free will was bad, even when saved it would be bad. Yet it chooses sometimes good or bad. Free will may be tempted to sin, but the act of choosing is not right or wrong. It just makes a selection and bears the consequences of it. That’s why God has always warned man of the consequences so that when he chooses he is not caught by surprise and is fully responsible for his choice.

The first step must be taken by God. That’s all. Otherwise, God would be our elect, instead of us being His elect.
For the record, I disagree with Calvin on infant baptism.

You're right, God did everything first. He gave free will, enough faith, orchestrated circumstances to woo me, created a universe that declares his Glory and so much more. Then He also knocked on the door of my heart, (He didn't beat down the door) and I let Him in. I take absolutely no credit for it. He just gave me the free will to do it. Had He not created me and given that free will I would be nothing.

For the record, infant baptism is not the only doctrine where Calvin went wrong. :rolling

 

[LaMont Cranston]

I have some serious issues with some of the things that HisSheep wrote, particularly what he said about how we are all entirely bad, we all fully deserve Hell and there is no one who does good. I get it that we are all entitled to whatever set of beliefs that we come up with based on our life experiences and whatever other sources we can find. What's also true is that the Bible is subject to a certain amount of interpretation, and I have a considerably different take on what has been said to us.

For starters, what about how we are created in God's image? What we know to be true is that we have been given many gifts, and we have the capacity to use them. Among those gifts are such things as love, compassion, gratitude, forgiveness, joy and so on. How we utilize our capacity to manifest these gifts in our lives is on us.

From what I can tell, God wants us to love Him, love ourselves and love others. I don't see that there is any inherent conflicts in doing those things. In fact, when we love God, ourselves and others, we are doing God's will and our own.

 

[Oats]

I agree Lamont

 

[HisSheep]

I have some serious issues with some of the things that HisSheep wrote, particularly what he said about how we are all entirely bad, we all fully deserve Hell and there is no one who does good.

Dude, it wasn't me who wrote that stuff; it was Paul the Apostle… I’ll highlight a few points:

Romans 3:
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

Now, I’m an easy fellow to disagree with – I am a disagreeable sort. Argue with me all you like, but I would advise you to agree with Paul.

Here is another Biblical proof of the sinful nature of man and his fate if Christ does not intervene:

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In a sentence, these verses alone say, “We have all sinned and are no less guilty than the worst of men; without the gift of faith in Jesus Christ we are doomed.â€

Anyway, that’s not the topic. We’re discussing if men play a role in salvation. I say no. We are saved. We are rescued.

We have free will indeed, but it is so corrupt (before our rebirth) we can choose nothing good; we are dead – until the Holy Spirit moves us to faith. Only then does our will become transformed in the progression called sanctification. We are then “made alive in Christâ€. Here our will is imperfect, but we learn to choose good.

So really… I guess I’m saying that the one decision we don’t make of our own free will is the “decision†to believe. I don’t think we decide that at all. Instead, God reveals Himself to a man, and the man cannot deny Him, though he may try - for a time. He only reveals Himself to the elect.

This is confirmed by Jesus’ words in Luke 10:22

"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Who are the people “in the know†in this verse? That’s right, God, Jesus, and those whom Jesus chooses.

Don’t tell me you â€have some serious issues†with that verse, too!!!

-HisSheep

 

[LaMont Cranston]

HisSheep, Dude, it's highly unlikely I'm going to be impressed with how disagreeable you can be, and I'm quite clear that I didn't join this forum to do battle with people. From what I can tell, the issue before us is not whether or not I disagree with Paul, it's about whether or not you disagree with God and Jesus.
While the impact that Paul had on the world is undeniable, he had that impact because of the experience he had from a much more powerful source while he was on the way to Damascus to torture Christians.

Let's consider the word of God. We are told, in Genesis, that God created everything, and God said that it was all good. God didn't say that it was all good, with the exception of you, me and other human beings; he said it was ALL good. We are also told that we are created in God's image.

Or, let's consider some of the words of Jesus. In The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow, they neither toil nor do they spin..." What these words mean to me is that we are created in love and beauty, but it is upon us to utilize our capacity to know that love and beauty in our own lives.

The idea that we are all garbage who are doomed to a miserable existence in this life is not what Jesus was talking about. What Jesus offered is the very real possibility of a more glorious and joyful existence in our own lifetimes and beyond, a life that is enhanced and elevated by his teachings.

You can exercise your ability to argue and be disagreeable all that you want, but, in fact, you are attempting to argue with those who are much greater than myself.