Summing up “the soul of man”

[freewill]

To cause or allow any suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety of creation would be as offensive to God as it would be alien to reason and love. None are so lost as those who cannot and will not freely acknowledge this.

 

[smaller]

To cause or allow any suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety of creation would be as offensive to God as it would be alien to reason and love. None are so lost as those who cannot and will not freely acknowledge this.

Do you have a problem with Satan being tormented for ever and ever? Rev. 20:10.

There are other sights to be had other than the one trick pony above. FOR example, what really is the "nature" of an ANTI-CHRIST spirit anyway? Do we really have any conception of what kind of 'being' or 'state of being' that really is?

Why don't you ask yourself some more difficult questions?

 

[atpollard]

To cause or allow any suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety of creation would be as offensive to God as it would be alien to reason and love. None are so lost as those who cannot and will not freely acknowledge this.

With this being the Apologetics & Theology section and all, a verse or verses supporting these bold claims would be nice.

 

[atpollard]

An arbitrary statement is not proof. I've asked you to address the discrepancy created by this statement several times now and you haven't. Jesus said the wicked go into Gehenna, John said they go into the Lake of Fire. If they are not the same who is right?

Both. Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors, so he used Gehenna (a real place, the valley where children were once sacrificed to Molech and in Jesus day, where animal and criminal corpses were burned for disposal ... a real, burning trash heap of all things unclean) as a symbolic reference to the coming Lake of Fire that John describes as the 'real' counterpart to the Earthly symbol. It is essentially a parallel relationship to the Temple in Jerusalem being a representation of the 'real' temple of God in Heaven.

Thus Gehenna WILL be redeemed (along with the rest of the Earth), while the Lake of Fire is free to burn eternally.
(Let me know if you want scriptures and other references to support this.)

 

[WIP]

Both. Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors, so he used Gehenna (a real place, the valley where children were once sacrificed to Molech and in Jesus day, where animal and criminal corpses were burned for disposal ... a real, burning trash heap of all things unclean) as a symbolic reference to the coming Lake of Fire that John describes as the 'real' counterpart to the Earthly symbol. It is essentially a parallel relationship to the Temple in Jerusalem being a representation of the 'real' temple of God in Heaven.

Thus Gehenna WILL be redeemed (along with the rest of the Earth), while the Lake of Fire is free to burn eternally.
(Let me know if you want scriptures and other references to support this.)

Yes we do per the rules of this forum.

 

[atpollard]

Yes we do per the rules of this forum.

I just didn't want to be the only one.

An arbitrary statement is not proof. I've asked you to address the discrepancy created by this statement several times now and you haven't. Jesus said the wicked go into Gehenna, John said they go into the Lake of Fire. If they are not the same who is right?

Both. Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors,

Luke 8:10 He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, “ ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’ [NIV]

so he used Gehenna (a real place, the valley where children were once sacrificed to Molech and in Jesus day, where animal and criminal corpses were burned for disposal ... a real, burning trash heap of all things unclean)

from BlueLetterBible.org
"Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction."

Strong's (G1067):
γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.

2 Kings 23:10 He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molek. [NIV]

2 Chronicles 28:3 He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his children in the fire, engaging in the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites. [NIV]

2 Chronicles 33:6 He sacrificed his children in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced divination and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, arousing his anger. [NIV]

Jeremiah 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. [NIV]

Jeremiah 7:32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. [NIV]

as a symbolic reference to the coming Lake of Fire that John describes as the 'real' counterpart to the Earthly symbol.

Matthew 5:29 'But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna. [YLT]

Matthew 5:30 'And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna. [YLT]

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. [NIV]

It is essentially a parallel relationship to the Temple in Jerusalem being a representation of the 'real' temple of God in Heaven.

Hebrews 8:1-6
1 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. [NIV]

Thus Gehenna WILL be redeemed (along with the rest of the Earth), while the Lake of Fire is free to burn eternally.

2 Peter 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. [NIV]

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. [NIV]

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [NIV]

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [NIV]

 

[Jim Parker]

you must still believe that even the least knowledgeable and least offensive of condemned souls, even the most backward or least intelligent of them will be kept alive forever writhing in endless agony and despair in a fire of terror and torment also.

It is not a necessity to believe that exact description of "hell" or the "second death" since scripture does not provide extensive detail.
Here's yet another opinion:
Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.


"I say," writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, "that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it" (Homily 84).


God is love. If we really believe this truth, we know that God never hates, never punishes, never takes vengeance. As Abba Ammonas says, "Love never hates anyone, never reproves anyone, never condemns anyone, never grieves anyone, never abhors anyone, neither faithful nor infidel nor stranger nor sinner nor fornicator, nor anyone impure, but instead it is precisely sinners, and weak and negligent souls that it loves more, and feels pain for them and grieves and laments, and it feels sympathy for the wicked and sinners, more than for the good, imitating Christ Who called sinners, and ate and drank with them. For this reason, showing what real love is, He taught saying, 'Become good and merciful like your Father in Heaven,' and as He rains on bad and good and makes the sun to rise on just and unjust alike, so also is the one who has real love, and has compassion, and prays for all."

Now if anyone is perplexed and does not understand how it is possible for God's love to render anyone pitifully wretched and miserable and even burning as it were in flames, let him consider the elder brother of the prodigal son. Was he not in his father's estate? Did not everything in it belong to him? Did he not have his father's love? Did his father not come himself to entreat and beseech him to come and take part in the joyous banquet? What rendered him miserable and burned him with inner bitterness and hate? Who refused him anything? Why was he not joyous at his brother's return? Why did he not have love either toward his father or toward his brother? Was it not because of his wicked, inner disposition? Did he not remain in hell because of that? And what was this hell? Was it any separate place? Were there any instruments of torture? Did he not continue to live in his father's house? What separated him from all the joyous people in the house if not his own hate and his own bitterness? Did his father, or even his brother, stop loving him? Was it not precisely this very love which hardened his heart more and more? Was it not the joy that made him sad? Was not hatred burning in his heart, hatred for his father and his brother, hatred for the love of his father toward his brother and for the love of his brother toward his father? This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one's heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned. They are all dearly loved. They are all invited to the joyous banquet. They are all living in God's Kingdom, in the New Earth and the New Heavens. No one expels them. Even if they wanted to go away they could not flee from God's New Creation, nor hide from God's tenderly loving omnipresence. Their only alternative would be, perhaps, to go away from their brothers and search for a bitter isolation from them, but they could never depart from God and His love. And what is more terrible is that in this eternal life, in this New Creation, God is everything to His creatures. As Saint Gregory of Nyssa says, "In the present life the things we have relations with are numerous, for instance: time, air, locality, food and drink, clothing, sunlight, lamplight, and other necessities of life, none of which, many though they be, are God; that blessed state which we hope for is in need of none of these things, but the Divine Being will become all, and in the stead of all to us, distributing Himself proportionately to every need of that existence. It is plain, too, from the Holy Scriptures that God becomes to those who deserve it, locality and home and clothing and food and drink and light and riches and kingdom, and everything that can be thought of and named that goes to make our life happy" (On the Soul and the Resurrection).


In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!


Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting inner fire of hatred," saith the Lord, because I was thirsty for your love and you did not give it to Me, I was hungry for your blessedness and you did not offer it to Me, I was imprisoned in My human nature and you did not come to visit Me in My church; you are free to go where your wicked desire wishes, away from Me, in the torturing hatred of your hearts which is foreign to My loving heart which knows no hatred for anyone. Depart freely from love to the everlasting torture of hate, unknown and foreign to Me and to those who are with Me, but prepared by freedom for the devil, from the days I created My free, rational creatures. But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you are and you will eternally continue to be, My children.
From: "THE RIVER OF FIRE" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[freewill]

To cause or allow any suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety of creation would be as offensive to God as it would be alien to reason and love. None are so lost as those who cannot and will not freely acknowledge this.

With this being the Apologetics & Theology section and all, a verse or verses supporting these bold claims would be nice.

I started posting this here over 3 months ago https://0testsite00.wordpress.com/2016/09/01/immortality-vs-mortality/.

If only the diehard traditionalists here would take the time to read it all and read it carefully. If only those who claimed to have read it and have since condemned it would have questioned me and discussed with me what they actually disagreed with before they condemned it...

On this web-page I have given a long list of all the main moral and scriptural reasons why I now believe God created man mortal and that only if He so wills immortality is given. If you then would care to start at the beginning and read carefully through all those reasons in the same order as I have written them down, then I think it will be made clear to you there isn't a single good reason to believe the omnipotent God of pure and perfect love will forever torture the least offensive of lost souls who were born to die offending the good they never knew. If you read it carefully then I feel confident it will be made clear to you there isn't a single good reason to believe that the God of love, mercy and compassion who knew what the future would bring made men with immortal souls so that even the least knowledgeable and least offensive of the condemned, even the most backward or least intelligent of them must be kept alive forever writhing in endless agony and despair.

If after you have read it all and you still find there are some things I have written there that you cannot agree with then please copy and paste here the very first sentence or paragraph that you could not agree with and then carefully explain to me your reasons why, and then let us discuss them. If you are truly willing to discuss and reveal the truth then we can follow this process through to it's logical conclusion by dealing with each offending statement that you find, one at a time in the order they were written down until the last one has been dealt with. The truth concerning God's love, mercy and justice will then I am sure be revealed a little more.

What are you waiting for?

 

[smaller]

It is not a necessity to believe that exact description of "hell" or the "second death" since scripture does not provide extensive detail.
Here's yet another opinion:
Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels;

I'm quite familiar with the above posture. Don't think it's necessarily TRUE whatsoever. I can see how some people might get to that understanding, but the sight does have some serious and non resolvable scriptural flaws as well.

For example, IF God is Omnipresent, that does not mean that hell transpires where heaven also is. Technically speaking everything transpires within Omnipresence, but that does not put "every thing" within Omnipresence in the same locale, as "things" perceive locale. As exampled in:

Matthew 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

To say that outer darkness and the weeping/gnashing of teeth is actually "in heaven" would be an extreme misnomer. No one in their right mind would enjoy heaven much if their own loved ones were being openly tortured before their eyes and neither party could do a thing about it.

Seems rather a lame sight, void of alternatives.

 

[atpollard]

What are you waiting for?

Fair enough (although I wasn't even a member 3 months ago).
I disagreed with your unsupported claims, and your link provides ample 'support' ... so we are good on that account.
I am at work and have a project to finish, so let me read that wall of text when I have more time, and get back to you.

 

[smaller]

If only the diehard traditionalists here would take the time to read it all and read it carefully. If only those who claimed to have read it and have since condemned it would have questioned me and discussed with me what they actually disagreed with before they condemned it...

Read it. Disagree. Provided critique.

Choosing not to engage doesn't mean your position "wins."

Your position is not better than "other believers" on the basis that God eternally kills people, as if that's a kinder gentler more merciful God.

The fact that people are raised unto judgment is beyond dispute. That SHOULD put to rest any notions about the "continuation of the soul" of man.

The fatal flaw in your reasoning over the LoF is found with non understanding that there are anti-Christ spirits, eph. spirits, involved with the matter.

The base question of the entirety regarding the antiChrist spirit(s) is this: Can and did God Himself make these spirits and can God thusly dispose of them via eternal torment? And Rev. 20:10 addresses that fact, quite directly and succinctly.

And IF that standard is then held to the antiChrist spirit(s), the math on the balance falls quickly into place, that NO, your position is not as solid as you suppose, nor does it make your sight supportable or any better.

Can God be eternally against sin, evil and death? We might "eternally" think that is the case. Temporal creations/allowances/toleration of God notwithstanding.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And we know the summation of that event, from vs. 15, same chapter. IF we carry on the narrative, to the FINAL chapter of Rev. here is what we find. And it's NOT termination:

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

IF these no longer existed, as you propose, there would be nothing there to be observed, as in "without ARE."

Your proposal is that after judgment, which has already transpired in Rev. 20, that there is termination.

Rev. 22:15 does NOT confirm your message.

IF your claims are as secure as you propose, you'd stand up to these criticisms. IF not I'm happy to reiterate as often as it pleases, to show the scriptural voids in your proposals.

It's NOT like you're the only believer who's considered the alternatives, including the one you are proposing. And found it wanting and short. A nice idea for some, granted.

But not scripturally supportable.

 

[freewill]

Fair enough (although I wasn't even a member 3 months ago).
I disagreed with your unsupported claims, and your link provides ample 'support' ... so we are good on that account.
I am at work and have a project to finish, so let me read that wall of text when I have more time, and get back to you.

Thank you atpollard, I look forward to having a free, open and friendly discussion with you. May reason and truth prevail.

 

[Bick]

Both. Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors, so he used Gehenna (a real place, the valley where children were once sacrificed to Molech and in Jesus day, where animal and criminal corpses were burned for disposal ... a real, burning trash heap of all things unclean) as a symbolic reference to the coming Lake of Fire that John describes as the 'real' counterpart to the Earthly symbol. It is essentially a parallel relationship to the Temple in Jerusalem being a representation of the 'real' temple of God in Heaven.

Thus Gehenna WILL be redeemed (along with the rest of the Earth), while the Lake of Fire is free to burn eternally.
(Let me know if you want scriptures and other references to support this.)

Do you have a problem with Satan being tormented for ever and ever? Rev. 20:10.

There are other sights to be had other than the one trick pony above. FOR example, what really is the "nature" of an ANTI-CHRIST spirit anyway? Do we really have any conception of what kind of 'being' or 'state of being' that really is?

Why don't you ask yourself some more difficult questions?

 

[Chopper]

Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

First of all, I commend my friend smaller for his defense on the Truth of eternal separation from our almighty God in a place called the "Lake of Fire". Actually no one really knows what that is, and how each non-believer in Christ Jesus is treated there. So, I find these conversations that disregard a place of outer darkness, separated from our holy Elohim, not only a waste of time, but an attack on our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. To somehow argue that any torment for all eternity in the lake of fire does not exist is disregarding plain Scripture that my good Theologian smaller has listed so patiently and truthfully.

I think personally, everyone should try and picture in our minds the awful ungodly event that happened in the Garden of Eden. For the godhead (Elohim) was forced to arrive at a solution to justly reverse original sin. Our loving God was not about to allow His enemy Satan to destroy what He, His Son and the Holy Spirit created for the pleasure of man's fellowship, like it was before the "fall".

If I picture this in my mind, I see tears in Heaven over the decision that God's Son Jesus must incarnate, live for 33 years and then die such a cruel torturous death on a stinking shameful cross.

As I study the Old Covenant and see the long suffering of Elohim with this unfaithful, stiff necked, and rebellious Nation of Israel for those forty years of wilderness journey, I scratch my head. Talk about love? That's where I see it.

Now we have the crucifixion of God's only Son, a part of the holy, loving Trinity, by the very Nation that was the apple of God's eye. That must have grieved our God so deep in His Being, that for all men who continually turn their backs on the Gospel's only way to undo original sin, and be joined to Elohim for all eternity, certainly deserve to be united with the prince of rebellion, and his demon forces for all eternity.

IMO, the only way to make this conversation come up with a logical explanation, is to declare God's Sovereign acts, and to view all the events explained in this thread through God's own eyes and heart.

 

[Jim Parker]

It is not a necessity to believe that exact description of "hell" or the "second death" since scripture does not provide extensive detail.
Here's yet another opinion:
Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.


"I say," writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, "that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it" (Homily 84).


God is love. If we really believe this truth, we know that God never hates, never punishes, never takes vengeance. As Abba Ammonas says, "Love never hates anyone, never reproves anyone, never condemns anyone, never grieves anyone, never abhors anyone, neither faithful nor infidel nor stranger nor sinner nor fornicator, nor anyone impure, but instead it is precisely sinners, and weak and negligent souls that it loves more, and feels pain for them and grieves and laments, and it feels sympathy for the wicked and sinners, more than for the good, imitating Christ Who called sinners, and ate and drank with them. For this reason, showing what real love is, He taught saying, 'Become good and merciful like your Father in Heaven,' and as He rains on bad and good and makes the sun to rise on just and unjust alike, so also is the one who has real love, and has compassion, and prays for all."

Now if anyone is perplexed and does not understand how it is possible for God's love to render anyone pitifully wretched and miserable and even burning as it were in flames, let him consider the elder brother of the prodigal son. Was he not in his father's estate? Did not everything in it belong to him? Did he not have his father's love? Did his father not come himself to entreat and beseech him to come and take part in the joyous banquet? What rendered him miserable and burned him with inner bitterness and hate? Who refused him anything? Why was he not joyous at his brother's return? Why did he not have love either toward his father or toward his brother? Was it not because of his wicked, inner disposition? Did he not remain in hell because of that? And what was this hell? Was it any separate place? Were there any instruments of torture? Did he not continue to live in his father's house? What separated him from all the joyous people in the house if not his own hate and his own bitterness? Did his father, or even his brother, stop loving him? Was it not precisely this very love which hardened his heart more and more? Was it not the joy that made him sad? Was not hatred burning in his heart, hatred for his father and his brother, hatred for the love of his father toward his brother and for the love of his brother toward his father? This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one's heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned. They are all dearly loved. They are all invited to the joyous banquet. They are all living in God's Kingdom, in the New Earth and the New Heavens. No one expels them. Even if they wanted to go away they could not flee from God's New Creation, nor hide from God's tenderly loving omnipresence. Their only alternative would be, perhaps, to go away from their brothers and search for a bitter isolation from them, but they could never depart from God and His love. And what is more terrible is that in this eternal life, in this New Creation, God is everything to His creatures. As Saint Gregory of Nyssa says, "In the present life the things we have relations with are numerous, for instance: time, air, locality, food and drink, clothing, sunlight, lamplight, and other necessities of life, none of which, many though they be, are God; that blessed state which we hope for is in need of none of these things, but the Divine Being will become all, and in the stead of all to us, distributing Himself proportionately to every need of that existence. It is plain, too, from the Holy Scriptures that God becomes to those who deserve it, locality and home and clothing and food and drink and light and riches and kingdom, and everything that can be thought of and named that goes to make our life happy" (On the Soul and the Resurrection).


In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!


Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting inner fire of hatred," saith the Lord, because I was thirsty for your love and you did not give it to Me, I was hungry for your blessedness and you did not offer it to Me, I was imprisoned in My human nature and you did not come to visit Me in My church; you are free to go where your wicked desire wishes, away from Me, in the torturing hatred of your hearts which is foreign to My loving heart which knows no hatred for anyone. Depart freely from love to the everlasting torture of hate, unknown and foreign to Me and to those who are with Me, but prepared by freedom for the devil, from the days I created My free, rational creatures. But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you are and you will eternally continue to be, My children.
From: "THE RIVER OF FIRE" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

and nobody even read it..........

 

[Chopper]

and nobody even read it..........

I read it all Jim, and your disclaimer. It struck me as just one of the many who can't reckon with a literal lake of fire. I have read some very good Theologians who simply point out that in reality, we really don't know much about the "fire" and what really will go on in the place of the damned.

What I saw in your post was a great love of our Heavenly Father toward all His created beings. That's why He demonstrated such great love to His people whether Israel or the Gentiles. The point is that those who reject His love, by the sacrifice of His Son Jesus, will forfeit His love, and God will refuse to let the rejectors mingle with the ones who received by faith and believed on God's Son.

 

[smaller]

and nobody even read it..........

I read when you posted it and read it before in order to understand the E.O. posture on the subject matter. Do I think it's possible? Yes, but only as a MAYBE. Which includes also a MAYBE NOT. The general E.O. position is that God Himself is the LoF. And that posture is a bit shaky and definitely subject to alternative critique. For example, knowing from Matt. 25:41 that the "FIRE" was prepared for the devil and his messengers. This does not speak to the LoF being God, to my sight.

But, as Chopper notes, there really isn't much information, specifically, about the LoF to go on. Put it this way, there is a LOT more speculation than is necessary that amounts to nothing more than a lot of guesswork in the arena. IF we want to get technical about the subject matter there is not, factually, one named person in the entire Bible said to be either in the LoF or heading there. Now, in light of this fact, ask me how much outright speculation there is and I'd have to honestly say A BOATLOAD.

Most of the better Christian theologians understand that they could not, with hard line certainty, avoid the possibility of Gods Overwhelming Grace in Christ to all people. That, in my sight, remains a hard line fact of POSSIBILITY and we'd all do ourselves much better if we kept that in mind/heart rather than leaping headlong into conclusions that actually do not exist as a hard line fact.

I think the E.O's posture is in LINE with the above sight, in my last paragraph. And most of orthodoxy has various hat tips to a similar posture, at least at a potential. But hardliners stretch things to their own liking rather than just sticking with the facts that we really DO NOT KNOW.

What we do know for a hard line certainty is that the devil and his messengers will be in the LoF, beyond any doubt. Beyond that people are just guessing.

 

[Chopper]

I totally agree with Smaller thinking. Especially this....

That, in my sight, remains a hard line fact of POSSIBILITY and we'd all do ourselves much better if we kept that in mind/heart rather than leaping headlong into conclusions that actually do not exist as a hard line fact.

Very well said my friend. I don't know how many times I've studied Revelation. To know absolutely what is in store for the unsaved is not clearly made known. There are statements that give folk a rich imagination, and many ideas float around. The Truth? Only God knows what's going to happen. This I do know, the unsaved will be judged by their "works."....

Revelation 20:11 "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[smaller]

Very well said my friend. I don't know how many times I've studied Revelation. To know absolutely what is in store for the unsaved is not clearly made known.

Very true. Studied it for decades now and I still do not have all that much of a solid sight on what will transpire other than I do know this, that the time of the devil and his messengers will have an ending. OF this much I am quite entirely certain. That ending for them will be eternal and it will be torture. Rev. 20:10. But even in this sight, I have had to take into considerations that I do not have a very solid handle on what exactly an anti-Christ spirit really is, NOR do I really want to know NOR do I think it's required to know. For all I know the LoF to an antiChrist spirit may be an inverse form of paradise, to them. These are not easy subjects. If we let our own minds trap us, it's not a good thing. I remain OPEN to what the Spirit shows me and I have changed a lot from where my studies began i.e. having had to extract my mind from certain propositions that certain camps made and that I bought into early in my faith, such as the various pre/mid/post trib postures, all of which I'd consider quite entirely LACKING today.

I actually have a far greater hope from Revelation and end time studies today than from where I started. See Rev. 5:12-13 combined with Isa. 11:9, Hab. 2:14 and Heb. 11:8 for pictures of my personal HOPE, which has grown quite strong in that direction. The days of Noah that Jesus speaks of in Matt. 24 for example is actually shown also by Isa. 54:8-10, and is a reflection of this same HOPE. But, just as those Waters of Gods Word are meant for OUR COMFORT, they are DESTRUCTION to Gods enemies, whom the devil and his messengers ARE. The Words of Gods Mercy are actually messages of DESTRUCTION to their ears. Do you catch the 'inverse drift' here? He's quite fascinating, this Living Word of ours. Far more than meets the surface analysis.

There are statements that give folk a rich imagination, and many ideas float around. The Truth? Only God knows what's going to happen. This I do know, the unsaved will be judged by their "works."....

Again, agreed. I think all of us would concur that we ourselves have some losses to be incurred in judgment as well. And, I suspect we will be quite entirely happy about those losses. For example, I'm quite sure that Paul looked forward to ditching the evil present with him and this sin indwelling his own flesh. Romans 7:17-21. I am quite certain Paul looked forward to ditching the contrariness of his own flesh to the Spirit, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 3:13-14, Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15 etc. Get the picture of JUDGMENT here? I certainly do.

How this might play into the end time narratives, I can not say, other THAN I believe that to be 'caught up' in the flesh, IF we are still here, may not be all that pleasant of an experience with us, considering the above, but, on the other side of that polishing/firing it is likely we'll all see much better, tears along the way, notwithstanding. Do we really have any idea of being translated from mortality into immortality, 1 Cor. 15:42 to end of chapter? I simply can not imagine what that really entails. It's quite beyond my mind/experience presently, other than the occasional tastes I've received along the way of this present life to keep me going.

We also know that we won't be harmed by the second death, Rev. 2:11, Rev. 20:6, BUT to me that doesn't preclude some amount of "exposure" to same. Rev. 14:10-11 shows this "torture" to transpire in the "presence of the Lamb," so, yeah, do the math. IF we are in/with the Lamb, it may be very much as the E.O. describes. I do not discount their sights. I do discount "exclusive" arrogance of avoidance postured by any sect at the expenses of other believers.

 

[Jim Parker]

It struck me as just one of the many who can't reckon with a literal lake of fire.

The lake of fire is described only by John in his highly symbolic rendering into human language the ecstatic visions he was given. To consider such ecstatic, apocalyptic visions as "literal" seems to me to be highly prone to error. Indeed, some very strange teachings have arisen from various theologians who, IMO, improperly based their view of Christian doctrine on the apocalyptic, ecstatic visions of John and Daniel et. al. It seems to me to be a form of Gnosticism to be the possessor "special knowledge" (gnosis) which enables on to reveal the hidden meanings of apocalyptic literature. So, no , I don't buy it.

The point is that those who reject His love, by the sacrifice of His Son Jesus, will forfeit His love, and God will refuse to let the rejectors mingle with the ones who received by faith and believed on God's Son.

That seems accurate to me.
Those who reject His love will not be blessed by His love.
But, God IS love and I believe He will never stop loving His creation even if they refuse to return that love and choose the anguish of the second death over perfect peace and intimacy with the One Who is perfect, infinite love.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


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