Sunday School/Small Group

[Jethro Bodine]

Boy, that's some scary thinking. It's even worse than any church I ever attended. The Preacher is supposed to own and dictate what goes on in the church ????

How many times was Paul told by the church what to do? Why would we even expect him to have listened to the church over and above what God told him to do?

Because he and any pastor would/should be listening to God rather than his babes in Christ for guidance in leading the church, his overall success or failure will be the confirmation of his calling. I think any pastor who gets to the Judgment with as few as 30-40 people he successfully pastored in this life does not have to worry about the day when he will give an account for what God commissioned him to do. But the pastor who gathered 2000 people around himself by bowing to their every whim and desire and insulating them from the hard truths and ways of the gospel should prolly be a little more than just concerned about the day he gives an account for his stewardship. Here's Paul's thoughts on the subject:

"1Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. 3But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. 5Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God." (1 Corinthians 4:1-5 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have known of "deacon boards" that called meeting with the pastor to instruct him on what to preach, what to avoid, how long the sermon should be and when to have "singings" to bolster church attendance.

I have no problem with a pastor meeting with his elders to discern the will of God in a matter. In fact, I would expect the pastor to do that even if only to a small extent. But surely, it is not appropriate for the elders to flat out tell the pastor what he is to be doing and saying. If an elder disagrees with the pastor to no possible resolution he should leave.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When a class is large, this is not practiced.

Then I suggest the class is too large.
How do we know that?
Because it's not possible to follow Paul's guidance in such circumstances.

 

[civilwarbuff]

How many times was Paul told by the church what to do? Why would we even expect him to have listened to the church over and above what God told him to do?

I don't think you can compare Paul who was teaching Christ to many who had not even heard His name to modern churches where you have people who have been Christians longer than pastors have been alive.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't think you can compare Paul who was teaching Christ to many who had not even heard His name to modern churches where you have people who have been Christians longer than pastors have been alive.

If you're referring to the 1 Corinthians 4:1-5 NASB passage I quoted, Paul wrote it well after the time he presented the simple teaching of the gospel to the Corinthians. He's addressing them in regard to growing up in Christ.

Actually, what you can not do is compare modern pastors to Paul in several ways because we do not have a Paul. (Please standby until the Catholic's applause subsides). That's why there is so much resistance to what I'm saying in this thread. In regard to this topic of who's going to control the pastor (God, or the congregation), it's obvious that God should be doing that.

Anybody who has this ache inside of them compelling them to demand the pastor do what he wants them to do is not going to find a home in the open church Jethro attends. He should move along. If the departing soul is correct in his opinion of the pastor's modus operandi the pastor's eventual failure will be the proof of that.

It is this very thing operating in the hearts of so many Christians that has convinced Jethro that the open church model Paul himself says we are to have won't happen to any large degree because Christians believe with all their hearts that they own the church. That one single belief may be the biggest source of all the contentions and hatred that have made the Christian church look like a joke. We're no better than the twelve tribes of Israel during the time of Micah when they had no king (Judges 17-19). The parallels are truly amazing, and equally as shocking.

 

[ezra]

hello ezra, dirtfarmer here

I don't even think they know where home plate is.

I have known of "deacon boards" that called meeting with the pastor to instruct him on what to preach, what to avoid, how long the sermon should be and when to have "singings" to bolster church attendance. Most churches today are divided into several social clubs. One group talks about football, one about auto racing, and group about business opportunities, and if you don't belong to their club you had better not try talking to them after service.

the office of deacon has gone from being a spiritual leader / servant making sure the members if the flock are took care of. check on the widows who have no family at close by.. go to the hospital make a few visits . most of all make sure the pastor has time to read and study. yes a pastor needs check on his flock. the deacon and pastor should have a working relationship .

 

[Nathan]

the office of deacon has gone from being a spiritual leader / servant making sure the members if the flock are took care of. check on the widows who have no family at close by.. go to the hospital make a few visits . most of all make sure the pastor has time to read and study. yes a pastor needs check on his flock. the deacon and pastor should have a working relationship .

This is a good point. I know many 'deacons', and while they are super nice guys, and willing to do whatever service there is to be done, definitely believers, a lot of them are not spiritually discerning.

Then you have the 'pastors' who are so because they just got out of seminary. Again, not having a deep root. While I do not discount a pastor for his youth, there is a point where young in the faith(which doesn't mean when the pastor said a prayer or was baptized) is just too immature to lead.

This all matters not, because things are the way they are now. But if I am going to respect a pastor or deacon, to the point of following them in spiritual matters(I always respect an older man as I would my own father), then they are going to have to show themselves as men full of the Spirit.

Unfortunately, I have come across very few of both.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then you have the 'pastors' who are so because they just got out of seminary. Again, not having a deep root. While I do not discount a pastor for his youth, there is a point where young in the faith(which doesn't mean when the pastor said a prayer or was baptized) is just too immature to lead.

If we have to wait until every pastor grows up in the ministry before he's any good to the ministry then we have a problem.
I think that's where the baptism in the Holy Spirit comes in:

"I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline." (2 Timothy 1:6-7 NASB)

" 12Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. 13Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. 14Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery." (1 Timothy 4:12-14 NASB)

The baptism in the Holy Spirit for a pastor propels him beyond the normal learning curve of age and experience. But, since the church has pretty well abandoned any notion of there being a baptism in the Holy Spirit, we won't have many effective ministers, young or old:

they are going to have to show themselves as men full of the Spirit.

Unfortunately, I have come across very few of both.

 

[Nathan]

If we have to wait until every pastor grows up in the ministry before he's any good to the ministry then we have a problem.
I think that's where the baptism in the Holy Spirit comes in:

"I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline." (2 Timothy 1:6-7 NASB)

" 12Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. 13Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. 14Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery." (1 Timothy 4:12-14 NASB)

The baptism in the Holy Spirit for a pastor propels him beyond the normal learning curve of age and experience. But, since the church has pretty well abandoned any notion of there being a baptism in the Holy Spirit, we won't have many effective ministers, young or old:

I agree, I don't care about a personal physical age or how long they have 'been' a Christian. To me it's all about spiritual maturity, which can be quick of lifelong.

When a person is fully baptized in the Spirit then it is obvious, to me at least, that they are submitted to doing and saying what God wants. I can definitely get behind a person like that.

 

[Willie T]

If you're referring to the 1 Corinthians 4:1-5 NASB passage I quoted, Paul wrote it well after the time he presented the simple teaching of the gospel to the Corinthians. He's addressing them in regard to growing up in Christ.

Actually, what you can not do is compare modern pastors to Paul in several ways because we do not have a Paul. (Please standby until the Catholic's applause subsides). That's why there is so much resistance to what I'm saying in this thread. In regard to this topic of who's going to control the pastor (God, or the congregation), it's obvious that God should be doing that.

Anybody who has this ache inside of them compelling them to demand the pastor do what he wants them to do is not going to find a home in the open church Jethro attends. He should move along. If the departing soul is correct in his opinion of the pastor's modus operandi the pastor's eventual failure will be the proof of that.

It is this very thing operating in the hearts of so many Christians that has convinced Jethro that the open church model Paul himself says we are to have won't happen to any large degree because Christians believe with all their hearts that they own the church. That one single belief may be the biggest source of all the contentions and hatred that have made the Christian church look like a joke. We're no better than the twelve tribes of Israel during the time of Micah when they had no king (Judges 17-19). The parallels are truly amazing, and equally as shocking.

You're not making a lot of sense. On the one hand, you are saying that the pastor should be followed as the ruling and commanding king of "his" church...... and then you go and type a paragraph like that one highlighted above...... all the while, saying either or both the preacher and the congregants should pack up and leave if they are unhappy.

 

[Free]

I have no problem with a pastor meeting with his elders to discern the will of God in a matter. In fact, I would expect the pastor to do that even if only to a small extent. But surely, it is not appropriate for the elders to flat out tell the pastor what he is to be doing and saying. If an elder disagrees with the pastor to no possible resolution he should leave.

It is very appropriate for elders to question a pastor's teachings if they don't line up with Scripture. If a pastor won't listen and continues to preach error, then he should be asked to leave.

In regard to this topic of who's going to control the pastor (God, or the congregation), it's obvious that God should be doing that.

And just how does God "control the pastor"?

It is this very thing operating in the hearts of so many Christians that has convinced Jethro that the open church model Paul himself says we are to have

What exactly is the "open church model," and where exactly does Paul say that we are to have that?

 

[Nathan]

The open church model is where all members of the body use their gifts. The normal church meetings we attend are called 'services' for a reason. They are meant to provide something from a few to a many.

Open church meetings are not services, they are fellowships, where all the members contribute.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is very appropriate for elders to question a pastor's teachings if they don't line up with Scripture.

Yes sir, it is. That's part of their job.

If a pastor won't listen and continues to preach error, then he should be asked to leave.

No, the elder(s) who can not come to an agreement with the pastor should leave, not the pastor. It's his church. It's his responsibility, not theirs. If the pastor truly is errant, let him fade away on his own.....or leave him to go entirely rouge and turn his church into another 'First Church of the Ear Tickling'. True believers won't attend that kind of church. Not for long anyway.

And just how does God "control the pastor"?

Yeah, I know.....imagine that...God controls the pastor?
But that's exactly the kind of question we often have to ask in this time in church history because of the lack of appointed and anointed and Spirit baptized pastors leading the church.

A pastor is expected to be the spiritual leader because he has the spiritual inside to God by virtue of a special calling, gifting, and empowerment by God through the Holy Spirit. That's how God controls the pastor. But, yeah, I get it how we don't get that in this time in church history when the Baptism of the Holy Spirit has been relegated to an early church phenomenon only, and your pastor is simply the one who borrowed $100,000.00 to go to seminary and become a pastor/ lecturer.

What exactly is the "open church model," and where exactly does Paul say that we are to have that?

1 Corinthians 14:26-39 NASB

"When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. 36Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?

37If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. 38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

39Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.40But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner."

Of course, there is the usual criticisms that usually get thrown out whenever this passage comes up in discussion. Let's talk about 'em.

You can either agree or disagree with it, but it's Paul's plain counsel to the church.
Once a person has seen and experienced the value of it and how it really does work so incredibly well at edifying and building up the church, as opposed to abusing and robbing the church by making it sit patiently through mindless, powerless ritual and rhetoric through force of conscience, they'll see how truly 'of God' it really is. You won't go back. That is if that person is truly seeking God and not just looking to check the 'Went to Church today' box on his imaginary 'What Christians Are Supposed To Do' card.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Open church meetings are not services, they are fellowships, where all the members contribute.

Or more to the point....CAN contribute. Even it it's only by asking a question that inspires the congregation to actually learn something and which can be edifying to the group.

 

[Free]

I agree, I don't care about a personal physical age or how long they have 'been' a Christian. To me it's all about spiritual maturity, which can be quick...

Not necessarily:

1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. (ESV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

On the one hand, you are saying that the pastor should be followed as the ruling and commanding king of "his" church...... and then you go and type a paragraph like that one highlighted above......

The paragraph I wrote is exactly congruent with what I've been saying here. In the Protestant Church, the congregation, mostly by default perhaps, thinks it is free to do whatever it's wants to do, even to the point of over ruling the pastor of their church.

.... all the while, saying either or both the preacher and the congregants should pack up and leave if they are unhappy.

NO! The pastor does not leave. The disgruntled, potentially trouble making congregant should leave. Even if the congregant is right! Leave the rouge pastor whom God is not in control of to die on his own if you or I are convinced he's not following God! Then it will be evident who is right. The pastor who really is following God won't shrivel up and die, and he most certainly will get rid of a potential trouble maker. If the pastor is not following God his ministry will die it's deserved death when the congregation leaves him to his devices. Or he'll rise to the ranks of a popular and high paid false teacher and prophet in the church, supported and acclaimed by the false in the church.

Yes, there is a very severe problem that there aren't very many true, God controlled pastors in the church to then turn to when you leave a former (errant, unmovable) pastor to fend for himself, but that hardly means we are to then act like the twelve tribes of Israel, biting and devouring each other. But that is exactly what we do. We hang around in the church, thinking we own it, and we beat up and devour each other in our struggle for control of it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not necessarily:

1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. (ESV)

One year.
That's all.

 

[Edward]

91 posts, and exactly four of them mention anything about the Holy Spirit, or receiving guidance, or anything about church being led by anyone other than men. A little discouraging.

And just how does God "control the pastor"?

We are to be led of the Spirit, and this includes Pastors. It's also an unanswerable question. The Lord speaks to people in different ways and this is not something that can be reduced to doctrine, because it is God's actions and not mans.

The church has a program. You can see it most everywhere. Worship first, two slow hymns, two fast hymns, Preach the Word, Pass the plate, Altar call, then release them. If the Holy Spirit visits the service and does most anything, the church is dumbfounded and don't know what to do, so they'll slip back into the program. It's all they know.

Pre-prepared sermons are part of the program. I know of two Pastors who do not pre-prepare messages, one says he will not, because everything is to be done of faith or it is sin. So he prays on the way to the speaking engagement and asks what to talk about. I suppose that the exception to this would be, if a congregant asks a question or for a particular study.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

91 posts, and exactly four of them mention anything about the Holy Spirit, or receiving guidance, or anything about church being led by anyone other than men. A little discouraging.

A little?
I say A LOT.

If the Holy Spirit visits the service and does most anything, the church is dumbfounded and don't know what to do

Oh, they know what to do, alright.......call it heresy.

I know of two Pastors who do not pre-prepare messages, one says he will not, because everything is to be done of faith or it is sin.

I think he's misunderstanding that passage in Romans 14, but, hey, if it works for him and he knows the Bible that well that he can spout sermons at will through a little mental, prayerful preparation and not miss a beat....God bless him!

So he prays on the way to the speaking engagement and asks what to talk about. I suppose that the exception to this would be, if a congregant asks a question or for a particular study.

I'm guessing he would be more inclined to be a closed meeting kind of pastor. But if he's not, and he can think in the Spirit on his feet, he would be a GREAT pastor.

I'm not a pastor, and I'm not a lecturer, but I can say that the few times I've led studies I've learned you can NOT be a programmed, methodological presenter if you hope to inspire the group to their own learning in the Holy Spirit. He (the H.S.) does his best work when the hearer can provide feedback to the speaker and the speaker is equipped, spiritually, to handle the feedback outside of his prepared material. That's what open church is ALL about.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Open church is really just opening up the spigot so God can pour forth his riches of understanding and ministry. It operates on the concept of inspiration. I've seen pastors who know this but who are trapped in their church's denominational meeting model. I feel for them. They know their greatest work in the Spirit happens when they can engage the congregation. Even Paul knew this. I think that's what he was getting at when he said this:

"11For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established; 12that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other’s faith, both yours and mine." (Romans 1:11 NASB)

We should only be feeding off of each other in the sense that we inspire each other to whatever greatness and glory we are capable of in the particular gift we have been given. Like I say, I've met pastors where I can sense they know this--that they thrive best on the input of the congregation--but who know they can not do that because of the bullies in the church who insist that he is their pawn to be controlled and will not allow anything outside of the traditions of the church to be performed. My pastor in Hudson, FL who operated his open church there called them 'clergy birds'. The church he had there in his retirement was a dream he had had for a long time.