Supporting Our Churchs

[doozie]

One of the brilliant reponses

Thanks.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is one thing that really gets my goat (I don't really have a goat.) And it's another reason that a church shouldn't be so focused on what you give. How do they know how much you give to the Lord? Should they know?

Next time someone asks you if you tithe say, "Yes...and it was delicious."

"6...bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts... 7 There, in the presence of the LORD your God, you and your families shall eat and shall rejoice..." (Deut. 12:6-7 NIV1984)

I'm conscious of the financial needs of my church, and it's the first place I give because I believe in its ministry, but it's not the only place I do.

“The worker deserves his wages.” (1 Timothy 5:18 NIV1984)

6 Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor." (Galatians 6:6 NIV1984)

The implication being here that if the worker fails to feed the sheep he doesn't deserve his wages(?) I, too, along with you, don't feel any obligation to support a church or ministry that I don't believe is doing an effective, spiritual work for the Lord.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And, for_his_glory, just so you know, I give lots of room for sheep to not recognize and appreciate a good meal delivered up by a master chef when they see it. It seems many people in the church are simply not ready to eat meat, let alone support a ministry that serves it up.

 

[highlife]

I wonder if some of has to do with the fact that there are no legal mechanisms in place for a sort if church ownership. Like if I have a house and pay into a mortgage mortgage I am buying ownership into the house and have legal rights to said property. If church leadership makes some decision and you disagree you have no real recourse as an interest owner to force an issue you are also subject to being kicked out without financial compensation.

For instance let's say I donate 100$ to this site and build up too many infractions and get banned ...... Then what I have no legal recourse to recover my money as an interest owner like I would as a formal owner in a company or at the very least a share holder where I would be entitled to compensation in the form of buying out my shares. One would hope that you would not be asked to leave church or be pressured out by shunning but one has no real legal recourse.

Also the govt takes out a significant chunk of money which handicaps people from giving we have far too many taxes and other liabilities in this nation let's say some one has compulsory child support on top of high taxes I doubt they will tithe as they are already in the hole before they even get their check, I would have much rather had Jewish tithe than our outrageous liabilities in the USA on top of church badgering people to give

 

[Mike]

I wonder if some of has to do with the fact that there are no legal mechanisms in place for a sort if church ownership. Like if I have a house and pay into a mortgage mortgage I am buying ownership into the house and have legal rights to said property. If church leadership makes some decision and you disagree you have no real recourse as an interest owner to force an issue you are also subject to being kicked out without financial compensation.

For instance let's say I donate 100$ to this site and build up too many infractions and get banned ...... Then what I have no legal recourse to recover my money as an interest owner like I would as a formal owner in a company or at the very least a share holder where I would be entitled to compensation in the form of buying out my shares. One would hope that you would not be asked to leave church or be pressured out by shunning but one has no real legal recourse.

Also the govt takes out a significant chunk of money which handicaps people from giving we have far too many taxes and other liabilities in this nation let's say some one has compulsory child support on top of high taxes I doubt they will tithe as they are already in the hole before they even get their check, I would have much rather had Jewish tithe than our outrageous liabilities in the USA on top of church badgering people to give

Again, I urge you to check the condition of your heart. Paying forced taxes is no substitute for releasing the grip on your Blessings. Jesus said to Give Caesar what is Caesar's; give God what is God's. He didn't say we give to God by giving to Caesar. He Calls us to give our time, talents and treasures, and we as the redeemed respond out of gratitude; not obligation. He doesn't want our offerings if they are given begrudgingly, so it's true that this would be worthless with your attitude, but you need to consider your attitude toward money. It's all His. Paying anything that is forced is not a replacement for an honest offering. No blessings in that.

We can stop giving to any organization that isn't being a good steward, and we will have learned from it. But offering a donation never makes you part owner. You're not buying stock shares with voting power. That is a misguided motivation to give to the Lord.

 

[highlife]

Again, I urge you to check the condition of your heart. Paying forced taxes is no substitute for releasing the grip on your Blessings. Jesus said to Give Caesar what is Caesar's; give God what is God's. He didn't say we give to God by giving to Caesar. He Calls us to give our time, talents and treasures, and we as the redeemed respond out of gratitude; not obligation. He doesn't want our offerings if they are given begrudgingly, so it's true that this would be worthless with your attitude, but you need to consider your attitude toward money. It's all His. Paying anything that is forced is not a replacement for an honest offering. No blessings in that.

We can stop giving to any organization that isn't being a good steward, and we will have learned from it. But offering a donation never makes you part owner. You're not buying stock shares with voting power. That is a misguided motivation to give to the Lord.

Maybe but I like having legal rights where my money is concerned. true you can stop giving to a cause if you dont like something they do, but you have no mechanism to recover your sunk costs. I see giving a donation such as to the salvation army as being different than giving to a church in which you are a member of, that should come with some legal power. Everybody knows when you give to a bell ringer that is a pure donation but there is an assumed give and take in the church in which you are a member so one is leaving them exposed to some serious exploitation if they are giving with no legal powers in return.

It really has nothing to do with giving to the lord but wanting to protect yourself from other humans, church is more than just a donation station, its a social setting where time is spent, etc so if things go sour the least I need to be able to do is get my money back as the time spent is a sunk cost I cant recover.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe but I like having legal rights where my money is concerned. true you can stop giving to a cause if you dont like something they do, but you have no mechanism to recover your sunk costs. I see giving a donation such as to the salvation army as being different than giving to a church in which you are a member of, that should come with some legal power. Everybody knows when you give to a bell ringer that is a pure donation but there is an assumed give and take in the church in which you are a member so one is leaving them exposed to some serious exploitation if they are giving with no legal powers in return.

It really has nothing to do with giving to the lord but wanting to protect yourself from other humans, church is more than just a donation station, its a social setting where time is spent, etc so if things go sour the least I need to be able to do is get my money back as the time spent is a sunk cost I cant recover.

I was talking to another person about this recently. All the messiness of church splits and problems result when the congregates think they own the church. People get hurt and the work of God ceases and the church looks stupid in the eyes of the world. The best thing you can do is leave a church quietly that you think is not serving the purposes of God properly with your donations.

 

[highlife]

I was talking to another person about this recently. All the messiness of church splits and problems result when the congregates think they own the church. People get hurt and the work of God ceases and the church looks stupid in the eyes of the world. The best thing you can do is leave a church quietly that you think is not serving the purposes of God properly with your donations.

The problem with that is you have no mechanism to recover the investments you already made so why would you give them in the first place, unless you wanted to just make a pure donation like you would a bell ringer. Of course then the church would be getting bell ringer quantities of money. People want some sense of ownership if they are going to invest significant amounts of money.

I could see leaving quietly if they said here is your share of the organization back and you go in peace. But thats not what goes down. The messieness is valid and there for a reason, just as if I were a share holder of an organization and I did not like something that was going on, im going to cause a stink as I have rights within that organization if I am a share holder and if they want me out they have to buy me out.

Thats the way it should be. I am pretty sure that the Jews in the society had certian rights attached to their giving and the trades men that worked on the tabernacle were paid. I notice that modern church likes to cherry pick the things out of the bible that suits their needs but like to say that oh thats OT stuff that does not apply anymore when its an aspect of the OT they dont like.

 

[Mike]

The problem with that is you have no mechanism to recover the investments you already made so why would you give them in the first place, unless you wanted to just make a pure donation like you would a bell ringer. Of course then the church would be getting bell ringer quantities of money. People want some sense of ownership if they are going to invest significant amounts of money.

I could see leaving quietly if they said here is your share of the organization back and you go in peace. But thats not what goes down. The messieness is valid and there for a reason, just as if I were a share holder of an organization and I did not like something that was going on, im going to cause a stink as I have rights within that organization if I am a share holder and if they want me out they have to buy me out.

Thats the way it should be. I am pretty sure that the Jews in the society had certian rights attached to their giving and the trades men that worked on the tabernacle were paid. I notice that modern church likes to cherry pick the things out of the bible that suits their needs but like to say that oh thats OT stuff that does not apply anymore when its an aspect of the OT they dont like.

I would love to hear your testimony to learn what actually changed in your heart when you were brought to faith. Investment? Ownership? This might be your motivation in giving, but it's not Biblical or representative of honest Christians. Do the riches of His Kingdom mean anything to you? Have you ever given without wanting and expecting something in exchange?

A church shouldn't pressure X amount of money from its members. On the same note, Christians should be responding to Christ's Sacrifice from the heart. In all my time here, I've never met someone who claims Christ so contrary to the faith. I'm searching for His Fruits here, highlife, but I'm not seeing anything.

 

[highlife]

I would love to hear your testimony to learn what actually changed in your heart when you were brought to faith. Investment? Ownership? This might be your motivation in giving, but it's not Biblical or representative of honest Christians. Do the riches of His Kingdom mean anything to you? Have you ever given without wanting and expecting something in exchange?

A church shouldn't pressure X amount of money from its members. On the same note, Christians should be responding to Christ's Sacrifice from the heart. In all my time here, I've never met someone who claims Christ so contrary to the faith. I'm searching for His Fruits here, highlife, but I'm not seeing anything.

Its more an issue of protecting yourself from other people than christs sacrafice. I am very particular what I expose myself and my wife to.

 

[WIP]

M't:6:3: But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: KJV

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The problem with that is you have no mechanism to recover the investments you already made so why would you give them in the first place, unless you wanted to just make a pure donation like you would a bell ringer. Of course then the church would be getting bell ringer quantities of money. People want some sense of ownership if they are going to invest significant amounts of money.

Ownership and reward is simply not the reason why we as Christians should be giving to the ministry. One of my favorite passages of scripture:

"13 ...when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.†(Luke 14:13-14 NIV1984)

When we give money without thought of fair compensation or return on our material investment we are giving as God intends. In the end no one will not be repaid for what they gave in this life time...even if it did unknowingly fall into the hands of unworthy ministries.

I could see leaving quietly if they said here is your share of the organization back and you go in peace. But thats not what goes down. The messieness is valid and there for a reason, just as if I were a share holder of an organization and I did not like something that was going on, im going to cause a stink as I have rights within that organization if I am a share holder and if they want me out they have to buy me out.

Count me out, lol. I couldn't endure a business meeting in a church like that.

I notice that modern church likes to cherry pick the things out of the bible that suits their needs but like to say that oh thats OT stuff that does not apply anymore when its an aspect of the OT they dont like.

I'm amused by that too.

At least under the law there was little question as to God's will regarding the mission of the Temple and it's maintenance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

M't:6:3: But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: KJV

Good one! Here's more of it:

3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (Matt. 6:3 NIV1984)

 

[highlife]

Ownership and reward is simply not the reason why we as Christians should be giving to the ministry. One of my favorite passages of scripture:

"13 ...when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.†(Luke 14:13-14 NIV1984)

When we give money without thought of fair compensation or return on our material investment we are giving as God intends. In the end no one will not be repaid for what they gave in this life time...even if it did unknowingly fall into the hands of unworthy ministries.




Count me out, lol. I couldn't endure a business meeting in a church like that.



I'm amused by that too.

At least under the law there was little question as to God's will regarding the mission of the Temple and it's maintenance.

I have invited friends in that were down on their luck with no expectation of anything in return. The difference is when you are giving to a entity like a church there is an enviornment for exploitation. When I let people stay in MY home and eat MY food I still retain ownership of that property. There is not a group of people living in my home that can invent scriptural inturpretation and if I dont comply vote me off the island. Its bad enough that most of us are exposed to being voted off the island at our jobs I dont need that at church too.

 

[highlife]

Good one! Here's more of it:

3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (Matt. 6:3 NIV1984)

I totally agree but thats not what im talking about, true the church may give to the needy but the social element can not be ignored, why would I want to give to a group with no rights when they could turn to have contempt for me and I have no recourse but to leave. Alot of that money that is given is for lights, pastor salery, building maintnece all of which I have no claim too even if I give alot of money. I am pretty sure in OT time the tabernacle was a public place and no jew could be voted off the island so to speak they had rights (other than the area god designated only for the high preist).