"Symbol of Christianity?"

[Gabbylittleangel]

As I posted earler, my opinion, based on Scripture:
I see nothing wrong with a Christian wearing a gold Cross.
It makes no difference if a non Christian does.

To that I can only add:
It is wrong to worship your necklace.

With that, I am out of this thread.
Blessings.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes fran,

I not only equate love with worship but state that they ARE the SAME. And we are commanded to worship God ABOVE all else.

WOW :P

Love and worship are not the same thing. We worship God as our maker and provider - one who has give us every good gift. We love our neighbor because God made them and we are commanded to love them as God's creation. We don't mix the two. Or at least I am not aware of anyone who would, until you wrote your post...

You would most definitely call it 'strange'. For your belief would NOT allow such an understanding. For the CC to TEACH that LOVE = Worship would be to prove that they WORSHIP many things that we have been commanded NOT to worship.

I will leave it to YOU fran. Have you ever took the time to 'look up' what 'worship' IS?.

I am aware of what worship is. It is only to be given to the Creator of the universe. If I love my wife, where on earth is that called "worship" as per the Scriptures? Can you cite me ONE verse that describes idolatry as loving one's wife or children or neighbor as per God's commands???

Strange indeed... And you merely admit that God has contradicted Himself. Are you sure you have considered your position is logical insanity?

Those that live FOR the world worship those things OF this world, (the creature over the Creator). But if one can 'alter' in their minds and hearts WHAT worship IS, then they are able to DO so 'without' accepting the conviction in their hearts.

It is NOT worship of money that is stated in The Word, but the LOVE of.................. And I contend that if there be those that DO NOT recognize the 'meaning' of the word, then they are most certainly unable to understand the PRINCIPLE, (most elemental), of that offered by God and HIs Son.

Worship is putting something above God. However, we can still love others AND not worship them in the Biblical sense.

Perhaps we 'begin' to SEE why there are SO many that refute most EVERYthing that I offer. WOW, could this 'truly' BE? That there are so many that 'claim' understanding but don't understand even the 'basics' of the book that they 'claim' to be instructed by.

Yawn...Either you worship and love only God and no one else, or you need to re-define your definition.

I have NOT been exposed to a 'religion' that would discourage the reading of The Word.

Nor have I. Who are you talking about?

I, therefore have 'chosen' to read it.

I read the Bible every day. I wonder if you are reading the same book, because you seem to have a problem with assigning worship and love to the same plane of thought.

And not JUST for the sake of 'having something to read', but in an attempt to "UNDERSTAND" what has been offered in it's pages. That 'deeper meaning' that so many seem to have LOST INTEREST in.

Reading it and understanding it seems to be a problem if you think love and worship means the same thing.

But I will stop here, (for now). You do the 'good folks' out there a favor and explain to them WHAT 'worship' IS. I have offered my definition, you give em yours.

Worship is giving the honor to something or someone that is to be given only to God. No one or nothing else is to receive this honor or praise - regardless of the ritual assigned for this worship service. It is placing God above all else and not mixing the profane with the sacred. There is room - ney, EXPECTATION - that we are to love others AND worship God alone.

Quite simply, LOVE CANNOT EQAUL WORSHIP. You would have God contradicting Himself. The first commandment of the Decalogue and the second Commandment of the New Law would cancel each other out. :o

Despite your condescension that I cannot read the Bible, or the big bad pope prevents me from reading it garbage, a bit of common sense is in order here. And despite what you think, every thought that is transmitted out of that head of yours is not from the Holy Spirit...

Do we need anymore evidence then this? I OFFER you that because you might not be aware of it yourself. Self-delusion is quite simply very easy to come by.

 

[Imagican]

fran,

I guess you go by 'your own' dictionary. And YES, I will offer you scripture that PLAINLY shows that Love IS Worship.

And I offer that the 'form' of worship that you would insist IS the 'correct' method, is ONLY a tiny PART of what we have been instructed TO DO.

That your 'churches' have misguided you in an understanding of worship has no bearing on the truth. For the church would offer that there are 'different' kinds of worship. The only diffrerent kinds of worship are how they are offered. For to worship IS to adore.

I offer this; Christ was asked WHAT IS the MOST important commandment. One, period. He not only offered this; Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, but went one to offer MORE information than He had even been asked. His reply? And the second, much like the first, Love your neighbor as yourself. Didn't even stop here. For He continued with, 'And all the law and all the prophets hang on these two'.

Now, I don't understand how this has been misunderstood by so many. Christ has summed up, in these three statements, the ENTIRE relationship that God has struggled for since Creation.

Now, you can 'say' that worship is ONLY to be offered to God. And I'm quite sure that this is what your 'church' teaches. But, by teaching this, you have taken ALL other meaning from the word worship.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that worship of 'a god' or that GIVEN to God is distinct in that what we love and adore, (worship), physically is offered directly to an 'object' that is physical by nature. But I do not believe that one can even worship God PHYSICALLY. That is something that 'churches' teach and has no effect on a relationship with God. For that which is 'taught' about physical worship to a SPIRITUAL God could end up BEING nothing other than 'obligation'. NOTHING done for a 'reason' is acceptable to God. What IS acceptable is that which is done through the heart, (spiritual). This is WHY so many have difficulty understanding 'works'.

fran, you WILL disagree with most anything that I have to state so far as 'TRUTH' is concerned from my perspective. For you have chosen to follow a 'man-made' institution that has inserted it's OWN commandments in the place of those offered by God and His Son. You are 'bound' by the 'teachings' of your 'church' and pledge allegiance to this institution. So, in essence, you have 'chosen' to follow 'something different' than myself.

My allegiance is to God and His Son. I need no man to 'show me the truth' for the Spirit IS The TRUTH. Men are corruptable and back-bitters that have little in common with the TRUTH even when it stares them straight in the face.

I offer sacrifice MOST EVERY TIME I offer my love to my brothers and sisters. I offer sacrifice to God and HIs Son in worship as well. If you do not understand this, then I can explain it no better than I already have.

And here in lies MUCH of the problems in the Christian Community today. They are unaware of some of the basics that have been offered for their LOVE of ritual means more than a LOVE of God.

Your 'religion' would attempt to teach that God is some UNFATHONABLE DIETY that sits on high ruling with an iron fist. Only approachable through a 'select group of chosen men' that MUST make intercession for ME.

This sounds more like Zues or some mythological god than Our Father who LOVES us and wishes for us to understand that love and offer it in return.

fran, God IS Love. Period. There is NO love other than that 'given us' by our Creator. That we do or do NOT reflect that love IS our purpose. Not some silly ritual that has NO bearing on our hearts. Not some pagentry to try and 'prove' something to the feeble minds and hearts of men. That we DO that which has been offered US is ENOUGH.

I know, sounds too simply right? Wrong. I don't believe that there has been anything ever 'taught' that is 'HARDER' to understand than LOVE. For God has been trying for thousands of years and there are STILL few that will ever even TRY. Choosing instead to find 'other ways' to appease their consciences by 'creating' diverting ritual in it's stead.

God loves us. Period. ALL of us. Even those that will one day become 'separate'; He loves them. They ARE His children.

Your church would teach that those that follow IT are the 'lucky ones' and all others are to be despised by both the church and God. Please don't deny this for it is apparent that any church that would TEACH persecution of 'others' is EXACTLY what I have offered. And don't feel like the 'lone Ranger' here, for I speak of most EVERY church, not JUST the CC. But the CC Has and DOES 'ex-communicate' those that it deems unworthy. And simply denying that their teachings are TOTALLY TRUE is all it takes to 'become' unworthy. Nothing more than 'men' judging 'men'.

God IS the ONLY righteous judge. I know, the Bible states that one day we too will be judges. But fran, that day is NOT YET.

So, I mention these things in effort to 'show' that I understand very well how hard it would be for you to accept what I offer concerning worship. You practice a 'religion' that teaches that it's ok to bow to a 'carved' representation of an entity that the makers had NO IDEA of the TRUE appearance of and PRAY.

And just to show how askew those that 'claim' to be protestant are, they would do the SAME thing. Just NOT quite as OBVIOUS. For we discuss right this very minute the 'graven image' of the cross. And the majority here seem oblivious as to the significance.

I have NOT misled you in the past and will not attempt to now. I am NOT predjudiced towards the CC. I am against ANY church that chooses NOT to teach the TRUTH. And what I attempt to do MOST is offer understanding so that others are able to see this as well.

ANYTHING made by the 'hand of man' IS a 'graven image'. That would be 'money', cars, jewelry, safes, banks, WHATEVER is 'made' by the hand of man. This is most likely 'news' to some. But let us get past this to the obvious:

ANYTHING carved, (cast, molded, spun, painted, twisted, bent, blown, etc....), in the likeness of ANYTHING natural or supernatural IS a 'graven image'. Whether is be bugs, mamals, reptiles, fish, dinosaurs, pyramids, pentagrams, peace signs OR CROSSES, Angels, spirits, demons, devils, WHATEVER. These are ALL, if made by the hands of men, graven images. And it doesn't really matter if you LIKE them or NOT, they are still graven images.

But WATCH how 'easy' it IS for those that choose NOT to understand to 'say' I don't care, I still LIKE it ANYWAY. In other words, what has been offered is ONLY 'good' so long as it complies with what one is WILLING TO DO, or NOT do.

I have had people 'claim' that their BAD behavior IS a 'blessing from God'. That the money that they won and used to pay a protitute was a 'blessing'. Or the job that they received as a 'car salesman' was a 'gift from God'. While they were out lying and stealing from their customers, they were thanking God for the opportunity.

Is this NOT OBVIOUS as to the state of mankind? That these were not simply 'atheists' that claimed NO affiliation, these were those that 'claimed' to BE Christians.

The point: Maybe they were, maybe they were not. That is NOT what I am judging here. But they CERTAINLY were NOT living the example that we were offered through Christ. They were offering FURTHER example to those that 'didn't' claim Christ as their Savior that it's OK to BE a thief and still BE a Christian. That it's OK to LIE and BE a Christian. What a testimony that is for those that are skeptical to start with. What kind of example is that to offer those that are LOST; "Hey, get 'saved' and it's OK cause THEN you're forgiven". Rubbish. And ANY 'religion' that would teach or even condone such behvior is NOT teaching the TRUTH.

And WHAT does the 'cross' signify if the ONE WEARING it is STILL 'living IN sin'? Using vulgar language, commiting adultery, (or even thinking about it), drinking to drunkeness, lying, stealing, (to ANY degree), not offering their brothers and sisters love when they NEED it, I could go on and on here but I 'assume' that you ARE able to 'catch my drift'. It signifies that 'these Christians' are NO different than the REST of the WORLD. They they ARE able to LIVE for this World and STILL 'be' Christians. What a deception that is. And then are there truly those that 'believe' that they can BE of this world and BE Christians as well?

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

I guess you go by 'your own' dictionary. And YES, I will offer you scripture that PLAINLY shows that Love IS Worship.

I have plainly shown that love is not equal to worship, since God commands us to love others - and simultaneously commanding us to worship ONLY Him. I don't care what denomination you belong to or how much you claim to read the Bible. The fact is that you have God giving us a command that He later calls a sin...

Again, you offer a ridiculous statement based on YOUR reading of the bible. Does God command us to sin in other ways that you would like to point out???

That your 'churches' have misguided you in an understanding of worship has no bearing on the truth. For the church would offer that there are 'different' kinds of worship. The only diffrerent kinds of worship are how they are offered. For to worship IS to adore.

The word "adore" has different meanings. I can adore my wife - but that doesn't mean I consider her to be GOD! Is a human so mindless that they cannot make the distinction between a creature and a person? I do not pray to my wife, I do not offer sacrifice to her, I do not thank her for my existence. Is this another case of arguing the ridiculous? Can we not have common sense here?

I offer this; Christ was asked WHAT IS the MOST important commandment. One, period. He not only offered this; Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, but went one to offer MORE information than He had even been asked. His reply? And the second, much like the first, Love your neighbor as yourself. Didn't even stop here. For He continued with, 'And all the law and all the prophets hang on these two'.

Notice Christ said "LIKE IT". He didn't say they were the same thing. Thus, when we love our neighbor, we are not offering worship to them "with our entire hearts, mind, and body". It is you that makes the connection that doesn't exist.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that worship of 'a god' or that GIVEN to God is distinct in that what we love and adore, (worship), physically is offered directly to an 'object' that is physical by nature. But I do not believe that one can even worship God PHYSICALLY.

We are physical beings, so how are you going to obey the directive that YOU cite "with our WHOLE ...BODY" if God CANNOT be worshipped "physically? When I bend the knee as part of an act of worship towards God, I am utilizing my body in a physical manner in a sign of respect. My mind is directed towards God in a special way. I certainly do not worship ONLY with my body. However, since we are spirit AND material, and are TOLD to obey with our ENTIRE selves, it goes without saying that we are to worship God physically. Again, you have not really thought out your position very well - since YOU have provided the citation to worship God with our WHOLE self.

That is something that 'churches' teach and has no effect on a relationship with God.

Keep the tired cliches to yourself. You do not have a clue what you are talking about.

NOTHING done for a 'reason' is acceptable to God. What IS acceptable is that which is done through the heart, (spiritual). This is WHY so many have difficulty understanding 'works'.

If I do something, anything, it has a reason. If I desire to please God, that is a reason. Again, you are not making any sense. The problem of "works" is when they do not have correct motive. The act ITSELF is meaningless without the correct motive. Thus, the works of the Pharisees, almsgiving and fasting, for example, were not condemned, but the MOTIVES behind the acts. If you care to read Matthew 5-7, Jesus does not condemn the action, but the reason behind the action. Correct reasoning or motive is what God desires - He desires mercy and love, not lip service that people give, a la Mat 7:20-22.

fran, you WILL disagree with most anything that I have to state so far as 'TRUTH' is concerned from my perspective.

I also disagree with the "TRUTH" as concerned from the perspective of a Mormon. They are simply wrong, misguided. They believe their truth is correct. However, truth is not subjective on such matters. God is objective, outside of ourselves. You tend to think of God dwelling in you to such a point that every thought you have is attributed to God. Thus, any whim you have is the Holy Spirit speaking in you. Once you realize the fallacy of that position, the self-delusion that leads one into, you might come to the conclusion that your truth is incorrect. But as long as you think the Spirit speaks through you, all I can do is offer the logical pitfalls of your posts in the hope that you realize that everything you type is not inspired, nor are people "misguided" for not "understanding" the "truth".

For you have chosen to follow a 'man-made' institution that has inserted it's OWN commandments in the place of those offered by God and His Son. You are 'bound' by the 'teachings' of your 'church' and pledge allegiance to this institution. So, in essence, you have 'chosen' to follow 'something different' than myself.

I have chosen to follow and obey an institution that was formed by whom I believe (and millions before me) was/is God. I am normally a non-conformist. However, when I came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the work of the Messiah, I subject myself to their teachings, realizing that they are guided by the Holy Spirit. That is my intent - to follow what I believe is guided by God. I am not so arrogant to think that I MYSELF am so guided. I know that self-delusion is rife in this field. As such, I prefer an objective truth outside of myself that is not tainted by self-delusion. I have rigorously tested the "wild" claims of the Catholic Church, and find them reasonable and worthy of my obedience.

You choose to follow yourself and your mistaken-ridden opinions. I choose to follow something outside of myself that I believe is guided by God. So yes, I bind MYSELF to those teachings.

My allegiance is to God and His Son. I need no man to 'show me the truth' for the Spirit IS The TRUTH. Men are corruptable and back-bitters that have little in common with the TRUTH even when it stares them straight in the face.

I presume you are a man, as well, or at least human, and are subjectible to those same errors in interpreting the truth? Does God demand we be Scriptural scholars so we can figure out the original text's sense, the social backgrounds of the time, etc, all on our own, independently of anyone else, because "men are corruptible"? IF your allegiance is to God, you would follow what God Himself has established, not something YOU established.

I offer sacrifice MOST EVERY TIME I offer my love to my brothers and sisters. I offer sacrifice to God and HIs Son in worship as well. If you do not understand this, then I can explain it no better than I already have.

Well, I do understand that and do the same thing. I have no disagreement with that. But it is more worthwhile to join together in public worship and add our worship with the Body of Christ to God the Father in heaven. It is difficult to get away from the fact that God has enforced public liturgy on both the Jews and the Christians during their individual dispensations. Nothing wrong with private sacrifice, but God offers us to do more with public worship.

And here in lies MUCH of the problems in the Christian Community today. They are unaware of some of the basics that have been offered for their LOVE of ritual means more than a LOVE of God.

Generalizations. ALL liturgy does not lead to being unaware of the basics of what God offers THROUGH correct disposition that He intends when we are TOLD to "Do this in memory of me"...

I find it interesting that Jesus HIMSELF commanded us to "Do THIS in memory of Me". A public gathering to recall what Jesus did and a call to emulate that spirit of self-sacrifice.

Your 'religion' would attempt to teach that God is some UNFATHONABLE DIETY that sits on high ruling with an iron fist. Only approachable through a 'select group of chosen men' that MUST make intercession for ME.

I will continue to pray for you - and I am not a "select group of chosen men" - priest - I suppose you mean.

Oops, well, maybe I better not, the Pope might come to my house and kick my door down... :P

This sounds more like Zues or some mythological god than Our Father who LOVES us and wishes for us to understand that love and offer it in return.

The understanding of God has always gone through various ideas, swinging like a pendulum with the times and cultures of different people. The Jews also saw God in the same way, sometimes as a "terrifying" master, other times as a "one who loves more than any other mother". Your way is not the best way in the "correct" way. We should remember that God is BOTH, rather than emphasizing one and forgetting the other.

fran, God IS Love. Period. There is NO love other than that 'given us' by our Creator. That we do or do NOT reflect that love IS our purpose. Not some silly ritual that has NO bearing on our hearts. Not some pagentry to try and 'prove' something to the feeble minds and hearts of men. That we DO that which has been offered US is ENOUGH.

Yes, God is love. No, rituals are not silly, nor do they have "no" bearing on our hearts! Rituals are expressions of the heart - at least that is their intent. Do you think that there is someone in the Vatican flipping coins on whether we should kneel or stand during the "Lord's Prayer"??? If you actually studied Liturgy better, you would know that there is a reason behind EVERY act we do in ritual - they are expressions of the heart. It is up to people to educate themselves on why we do what we do.

I know, sounds too simply right? Wrong. I don't believe that there has been anything ever 'taught' that is 'HARDER' to understand than LOVE. For God has been trying for thousands of years and there are STILL few that will ever even TRY. Choosing instead to find 'other ways' to appease their consciences by 'creating' diverting ritual in it's stead.

People are always looking for shortcuts, to set themselves up as the almighty determiner of what is "correct" and what is not. How different are you by appeasing YOUR own conscience by your own "rituals"?

God loves us. Period. ALL of us. Even those that will one day become 'separate'; He loves them. They ARE His children.

That was never under question.

Your church would teach that those that follow IT are the 'lucky ones' and all others are to be despised by both the church and God. Please don't deny this for it is apparent that any church that would TEACH persecution of 'others' is EXACTLY what I have offered.

The Bible ITSELF "teaches" persecution of those who do not follow the teachings offered by God through the prophets and apostles. Clearly, you do not remember that the Bible has said quite a bit on such things - entire swaths of people wiped out by the Jews because God told them to. Even Christian evangelizers, Paul and John and Jude, condemn false teachers. They were ousted from the community. The Church has every right to remove people from its ranks, just as any other organization can expel members for particular reasons set down.

And don't feel like the 'lone Ranger' here, for I speak of most EVERY church, not JUST the CC. But the CC Has and DOES 'ex-communicate' those that it deems unworthy. And simply denying that their teachings are TOTALLY TRUE is all it takes to 'become' unworthy. Nothing more than 'men' judging 'men'.

So did Paul. Paul also tells us WHY people are excommunicated. Interestingly, the Church uses the same reasons - for disciplinary purposes in hope of bringing the person back to faith. The Bible is FULL of "men judging men". What sort of utopia are you imaging?

So, I mention these things in effort to 'show' that I understand very well how hard it would be for you to accept what I offer concerning worship. You practice a 'religion' that teaches that it's ok to bow to a 'carved' representation of an entity that the makers had NO IDEA of the TRUE appearance of and PRAY.

You have said a lot off topic, but you have not really shown me why God contradicts Himself IF love = worship. All you have done is rant about organized religion...

Wearing the cross is an excellent evangelization tool that expresses one's belief in the crucified Lord. We continue to evangelize Christ crucified, just as Paul did. You prefer that we don't. That is not surprising that you would hide the center piece of the Gospel. You have already made your stance well known that Jesus is not God. So why not hide what God did for us at the cross???

Your "truth" is not the Gospel.

 

[A-Christian]

MEC, i'm afraid you are losing credibility (if you have not already lost it). Maybe you could rethink some things and quit reading anti-this and anti-that liturature.

Peace

 

[Imagican]

A,

I don't read ANY anti-lierature, (unless the headline news on earthlinks homepage would be considered such). My religious study is 'confined to the Bible'. There have been times that I have followed shortcuts offered here on the forums, (in threads), in order to discuss particular subjects, but other than that, my understanding is NOT that of 'other men'.

I have NOT offered ANYTHING complicated. Just different.

The Jews were SUCH a 'hard headed people' that 'at times' God WAS a bit harsh on them. But even the valued Ten Commandments, the 'school master', taught ONLY TWO THINGS - Love God above all else, Love one's neighbor AS themselves. Read em with this in mind from the ONSET and one is perfectly able to understand WHAT the 'school master' was MEANT to 'teach'.

Let me offer this reply to both you and fran.

Fran, you attempt to put words into my posts which DO NOT exists. You choose to see only that which you desire and insert such limited understanding into your replies.

I have PLAINLY offered OVER AND OVER The Word. You would indicate that I have stated that when we love 'other things' that it is the SAME as Loving God. I have NOT offered this and have attempted to make it perfectly clear that we are to love NOTHING as or above God. That our Love for God IS to be ABOVE all else.

From your perspective God's love for us is 'different' than the LOVE that we 'understand'. I contend that there IS NO 'true' love that has NOT come FROM God.

Perhaps 'something' has been able to PREVENT you from the obtainment of the 'perfect understanding' that Paul has told us WE CAN have. Perhaps THAT is why you are unable to understand what I offer in these words here.

'Religions' have mostly chosen to 'create' their own definitions for things pertaining to 'religion'. The debate that we entertain this very minute 'reeks' of this situation. If the 'religion' doesn't 'agree' with something offered through scripture, the easiest way to 'ignore it' is to 'pretend' that it means 'something OTHER THAN' what is actually stated.

Case in point:

fran, pay attention here and 'see' if you ARE able to 'understand'.

WHO created the 'symbol' of the Cross? NO, I am not asking WHAT it sybolizes and who created THAT. What I am asking you is WHO 'manufactured' the FIRST 'cross' that was used to conotate ANYTHING pertaining to 'religion'? Was is God? Was it Christ? Or was is 'someone else'?

To offer further understanding; Who 'designed it'? I have 'seen' about a thousand 'different' cross designs. IF this is a valid symbol of Christianity, WHICH design IS the TRUE design of the cross? The crucifix? The Swastika? The 'plain ole rugged cross'? Which ONE is the REAL representation of the 'religion' of Christianity?

See, this is a tough one huh? The Catholics offer the crucifix. Hitlers 'form' of Christianity used the swastika, (yes, Hitler TOO 'claimed' to BE a 'Christian'. Was he?

I am NOT here to 'condemn' ANYONE for wearing a 'cross'. Just attempting to point out what MOST have already admitted; Wearing a symbol does NOT indicate ANYTHING other than their 'desire' to wear a 'particular' type of jewelry. Whether it be made from a 'stick', or an elaborately decorated piece of gold incrusted with jewels. It is NOTHING but a 'piece of jewelry'.

Now, if when WE become ONE with Christ He LIVES in us. That OUR bodies and HIS become ONE. Do you HONESTLY 'think' that HE would wear a 'cross' around His neck? Do you honestly 'believe' that the reminder of the pain and suffering He was subjected to AT OUR HANDS, is a 'thing' that He would 'relish'?

What died on the cross was SIN. Is this HOW we should 'remember our Savior'? I think NOT. What the lesson taught IS FREEDOM from sin. Not; to revel IN IT.

The CC is the institution that raised this 'emblem' to such a status that we find it in today. And this same church would encourage the carving and bowing to statues of people that the makers have NO idea of the persons that the statues represent ACTUAL appearance. These are NOTHING but 'representations' of individuals, hence, they have NO actual power or purpose EXEPT to be offered as 'idols'. For these ARE graven images, (created by the hands of men), in the LIKENESS of 'something' physical.

I would offer this: the Jews were well versed in the idea of idols. Whether is be a 'golden calf' or some 'other' representation of the 'physical'. Study their understanding of symbolism and it becomes perfectly clear WHAT an 'idol' IS.

Would you simply 'ignore' thier past understanding simply because MOST were not able to accept the Christ? Heck guys, ALL the apostles were Jewish. Do we have a SINGLE instance of instruction where we are TOLD that EVEN one apostle used a 'man made emblem' to represent ANYTHING? Did Paul wear a 'cross'? Peter? John? Did they 'teach us' to wear a 'cross'? What is the ONLY teaching that we HAVE concerning 'graven images'.

Now, I have offered NOTHING other than 'simple understanding'. That it goes AGAINST The 'wishes' of many only shows that the 'flesh' often desires that which DOES NOT PERTAIN to Spirit. But, when we 'begin' to understand, then we ARE able to 'recognize' that ALL things ARE spiritual.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

This keeps 'nagging at me'. It seems that I have been unable to comminicate the significance.

Let me 'try' harder;

How MANY commandments were given to mankind through Moses? Ten? Hardly. There were MANY. I have heard different numbers offered by different people and have NEVER actually attempted to number them myself. But REGARDLESS of the 'actual number', there were MANY MANY more than ten, (unless of course your understanding is limited to a 'movie' or 'story' of some sort).

Now, Christ was asked WHICH is the MOST important. And out of ALL the commandments offered to men, HE plainly stated an answer to this question. And folks, this IS important. Perhaps one of the MOST important statements recorded of Christ. For in this 'answer' LIES the KEY to the 'perfect understanding' that Paul offered as well. And we ARE able to come to a 'perfect understanding' of WHAT God wants from us. Perfect in sin? No way. But PERFECT in 'understanding'? Absolutely!!!!

And in this statement of Christ is the SUMMATION of EVERYTHING ever offered to us BY God. So simple in fact and so pure that MANY seem oblivious as it's significance. What Christ offered IS an 'understanding of LOVE and it's IMPORTANCE.

Let's break it down:

Love God above all else. Love one's neighbor AS themselves. Of these two statements the COMMON denominator is LOVE.

We have been offered the DIRECT statement that God IS Love.

Now add these two principles into the final summation of what Christ offered: ALL the LAW and ALL the PROPHETS HANG on these TWO.

The end result is that ALL that God IS has been GIVEN to us. And the ONLY way in which we can acknowledge this and BE 'what' God intended is to UNDERSTAND this ONE 'thing'. LOVE.

So, we could conclude that the ENTIRE 'work' that God has performed IS for ONE REASON. Not only The written Word, (the Bible), but EVERYTHING He has offered and given is for ONE purpose: To TEACH us WHAT He IS and what WE are to BE. Don't forget, we ARE 'created' in HIS IMAGE. Since we KNOW that this image is NOT physical, what do you suppose that this 'image' IS? I have the answer and I guess it's just TOO simple. The answer IS LOVE.

EVERYTHING that God has offered IS a 'piece of God' EVERYTHING. And EVERYTHING God has offered IS worthy of WORSHIP. But He DID command that we 'worship' Him 'ABOVE' all else. That so far as God is concerned, we worship NOTHING other than HIM 'as God'.

Worship is to 'place honor upon', to 'bow in honor of', 'to acknowledge through WHAT we offer our love TO' and this I offer IS LOVE. For Christ when ASKED did NOT tell us to WORSHIP God above all else, He TOLD us to LOVE God above all else. And went further to tell us to offer this SAME love to each other. For WHEN we are able to COME to a 'perfect understanding' then we WILL realize that we are ALL a 'part of the SAME family', (body), with God AS Our Father.

And what is the GLUE that makes a family A functional FAMILY? LOVE, pure and simple. And THAT my friends IS the 'simplicity that IS Christ Jesus'. A pure and simple offering of Love by Our Father. Offering His Son in sacrifice for our lives. Done through ONE purpose; To SHOW us HIS LOVE. And we in turn have been GIVEN this example for ONE purpose: To learn. To learn to follow this SAME example; LOVE.

And HOW do we SHOW this love? How is it MANIFEST in our lives? There is ONLY one way, my friends, we SHOW our love through that which we 'worship'. And YES, my wife is worthy of my worship AS MY WIFE. AS the GIFT that was offered to me BY God through HIS love. NO, I do NOT worship my wife AS God. For this 'worship' is reserved for HIM ALONE. For He IS my Father.

So, God, (the Father), and His Son are ONE, as I and Christ ARE one, as my wife and I ARE one. That is the example that we have been given to follow and understand. But this CANNOT be understood WITHOUT 'true love' being the GLUE that holds it ALL together.

And you choose to 'believe' that what I offer is 'mine' OWN? That these words that I 'give' to you are MY OWN PERSONAL understanding? Whew. This understanding is SO alien to my limited understanding, (so far as FLESH is concerned), that this understanding is BEYOND even my complete comprehension. But the words that I offer ARE TRUTH. And this is confirmed NOT ONLY in The Word, but in The Spirit as well.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Fran, you attempt to put words into my posts which DO NOT exists. You choose to see only that which you desire and insert such limited understanding into your replies.

Did you or did you not write the following on Saturday?

For we WORSHIP that which we ADORE. And to ADORE it to LOVE. That which we LOVE, IS that which we WORSHIP.

I have not "put words into your mouth".

I even gave you a chance to recant, to say that I misunderstood you. What did you say to my first post that questioned your "train of logic"?

I not only equate love with worship but state that they ARE the SAME.

Then, you go on to your usual off-topic rants, condemning the Catholic Church from keeping the Word from the people, from creating rituals that apparently are meaningless, etc., ad nauseum...

Don't accuse me of such nonsense when it is quite obvious what you wrote...

I gave you PLENTY of opportunities to state "Fran, you misunderstand me" or "Fran, I mistated - here is what I mean". No, you write that worship and love are the same thing, even after I spell out for you in colors the ridiculous logic where your thinking leads us. Anyone who desires to follow this discussion can quite easily find that you are now singing another song...

I have PLAINLY offered OVER AND OVER The Word.

You have plainly offered YOUR word, not THE Word. Let's try working on making that distinction.

From your perspective God's love for us is 'different' than the LOVE that we 'understand'. I contend that there IS NO 'true' love that has NOT come FROM God.

That was never in contention. God IS love. When one loves, it is from God. But how does that have anything to do with your statement that love = worship???

Perhaps 'something' has been able to PREVENT you from the obtainment of the 'perfect understanding' that Paul has told us WE CAN have. Perhaps THAT is why you are unable to understand what I offer in these words here.

Perhaps that "something" is common sense... Perhaps that "something" is presuming that God does not contradict Himself - breaking His Own command to worship ONLY Him, and yet love all. How can love = worship then? But you clearly state this is so?

:P

'Religions' have mostly chosen to 'create' their own definitions for things pertaining to 'religion'. The debate that we entertain this very minute 'reeks' of this situation. If the 'religion' doesn't 'agree' with something offered through scripture, the easiest way to 'ignore it' is to 'pretend' that it means 'something OTHER THAN' what is actually stated.

Do you know what "religion" means? It means "bind oneself to God". Do you have a problem with that? Is there a problem with binding oneself to God with people of like mind?

Case in point:

fran, pay attention here and 'see' if you ARE able to 'understand'.

I'll try... :P

WHO created the 'symbol' of the Cross? NO, I am not asking WHAT it sybolizes and who created THAT. What I am asking you is WHO 'manufactured' the FIRST 'cross' that was used to conotate ANYTHING pertaining to 'religion'? Was is God? Was it Christ? Or was is 'someone else'?

We preach Christ crucified... It is the touchstone of our faith. It calls to mind the core of our beliefs. No doubt, you have problems with what the bible teaches - that Christ was crucified - thus, you disaprove of someone many years ago making a golden cross to hang around one's neck. Why is that?

To offer further understanding; Who 'designed it'? I have 'seen' about a thousand 'different' cross designs. IF this is a valid symbol of Christianity, WHICH design IS the TRUE design of the cross? The crucifix? The Swastika? The 'plain ole rugged cross'? Which ONE is the REAL representation of the 'religion' of Christianity?

Such designs are effected by cultural, as well. That is why the Catholic Church has many different "rites". Rituals have different meanings to different cultures. Surely, you are aware that shaking one's hand does not mean the same thing to people all over the world? The idea is the same. The cross is readily identifiable by people of a particular culture, calling to mind the sacrifice of Jesus and the depths God went through to save us - since we have been bought at a GREAT price.

See, this is a tough one huh? The Catholics offer the crucifix. Hitlers 'form' of Christianity used the swastika, (yes, Hitler TOO 'claimed' to BE a 'Christian'. Was he?

Another common mistake made by anti-Chrisitans. Hitler was NOT Christian. Sure, he was born Christian, but he actively persecuted the Church and killed millions. Apostates are not Christians. He had no "form" of Christianity recognizable by any other Christian. And then again, maybe he had the "TRUTH" since he could read the bible on his own without the Church...

I am NOT here to 'condemn' ANYONE for wearing a 'cross'. Just attempting to point out what MOST have already admitted; Wearing a symbol does NOT indicate ANYTHING other than their 'desire' to wear a 'particular' type of jewelry. Whether it be made from a 'stick', or an elaborately decorated piece of gold incrusted with jewels. It is NOTHING but a 'piece of jewelry'.

Wrong. You have said that wearing a cross is worship. While it is true that many people who wear a cross have no affinity with Christianity, it doesn't follow that ALL people wear a cross just because it looks pretty. Some people actually go out and buy a cross to show off their love of what God has done to the rest of the world. Have you not read Matthew 28:20? We preach the Gospel to the world - Christ crucified.

Now, if when WE become ONE with Christ He LIVES in us. That OUR bodies and HIS become ONE. Do you HONESTLY 'think' that HE would wear a 'cross' around His neck? Do you honestly 'believe' that the reminder of the pain and suffering He was subjected to AT OUR HANDS, is a 'thing' that He would 'relish'?

Do you honestly think He would be ashamed to wear a cross?

What died on the cross was SIN. Is this HOW we should 'remember our Savior'? I think NOT. What the lesson taught IS FREEDOM from sin. Not; to revel IN IT.

Then what was Paul thinking about preaching Christ crucified? Why was he "reveling in sin"?

The CC is the institution that raised this 'emblem' to such a status that we find it in today.

Thank you for the compliment. We DO continue to preach Christ crucified. However, in reality, the Catholic Church doesn't force anyone to wear a crucifix. That is a pious decision that the individual makes on their own. The Church doesn't condemn people for doing it, as it is a display of our faith.

And this same church would encourage the carving and bowing to statues of people that the makers have NO idea of the persons that the statues represent ACTUAL appearance.

Who cares what the person ACTUALLY looked like. Have you noticed that very few people are described in such detail to make the physical appearance clearly known? Why? Because it is not important. The bible concentrates on God's Word, theology. As long as we know WHO it is supposed to represent, it doesn't matter if the statue maker got the color of hair correct. WHY are you focusing on such inane stuff?

These are NOTHING but 'representations' of individuals, hence, they have NO actual power...

True..

or purpose EXEPT to be offered as 'idols'. For these ARE graven images, (created by the hands of men), in the LIKENESS of 'something' physical.

False. We don't "worship" the statue or the representation, unless it is representative of the Incarnate God.

I would offer this: the Jews were well versed in the idea of idols. Whether is be a 'golden calf' or some 'other' representation of the 'physical'. Study their understanding of symbolism and it becomes perfectly clear WHAT an 'idol' IS.

The Jews did not nor currently believe that God became man. Christians do believe that God became man. Thus, our understandings of statues are slightly different.

Would you simply 'ignore' thier past understanding simply because MOST were not able to accept the Christ? Heck guys, ALL the apostles were Jewish. Do we have a SINGLE instance of instruction where we are TOLD that EVEN one apostle used a 'man made emblem' to represent ANYTHING? Did Paul wear a 'cross'? Peter? John? Did they 'teach us' to wear a 'cross'? What is the ONLY teaching that we HAVE concerning 'graven images'.

How dare those apostles use material things to call to mind what God has done and continues to do in the world! Things like handkerchiefs and even the shadow of Peter healed people. GASP!

God works through the material world. As you may know, the New Testament says nothing about wearing crosses or NOT wearing crosses. Thus, as Paul would say, we are free. St. Augustine says we are free to do all, done in love. Paul would not have been ashamed to preach Christ crucified by wearing jewelry of the God-Man on the cross, in my opinion.

Now, I have offered NOTHING other than 'simple understanding'. That it goes AGAINST The 'wishes' of many only shows that the 'flesh' often desires that which DOES NOT PERTAIN to Spirit. But, when we 'begin' to understand, then we ARE able to 'recognize' that ALL things ARE spiritual.

All things are spiritual? Wow... What "word" have you been reading?

 

[Imagican]

fran,

You have chosen to 'pick and choose' my statements which you 'quote', OUT of 'context'. While I have stated that worship IS love, I have offered a PLAIN distinction to that which we offer to each other and that which is RESERVED for God ALONE.

Will address the REST of your post directly.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

My comments will be in BLUE;

fran,

Once again you would 'attempt' to alter not only my words but those of God Himself. Let us see if this is not an accurate statement.

Fran, you attempt to put words into my posts which DO NOT exists. You choose to see only that which you desire and insert such limited understanding into your replies.

Did you or did you not write the following on Saturday?

For we WORSHIP that which we ADORE. And to ADORE it to LOVE. That which we LOVE, IS that which we WORSHIP.

There is NOTHING offered here that is NOT TRUTH. What we Love IS that which we worship, (or it SHOULD BE).

I have not "put words into your mouth".

I even gave you a chance to recant, to say that I misunderstood you. What did you say to my first post that questioned your "train of logic"?

I not only equate love with worship but state that they ARE the SAME.

And I STILL maintain that this TOO, is TRUTH. And I HAVE offered over and over that you OBVIOULSY 'misunderstand' not ONLY my words, but that which has been offered IN The Word.

Then, you go on to your usual off-topic rants, condemning the Catholic Church from keeping the Word from the people, from creating rituals that apparently are meaningless, etc., ad nauseum...

Don't accuse me of such nonsense when it is quite obvious what you wrote...

I gave you PLENTY of opportunities to state "Fran, you misunderstand me" or "Fran, I mistated - here is what I mean". No, you write that worship and love are the same thing, even after I spell out for you in colors the ridiculous logic where your thinking leads us. Anyone who desires to follow this discussion can quite easily find that you are now singing another song...

I have NOT altered what I have to offer in the LEAST. I HAVE attempted to offer it in more detailed replies, but the 'gist' of what I have offered has NOT vered in the LEAST from my original statements. You simply 'choose' to 'see' them in this manner for they contradict that which you have been taught, (or learned).

I have PLAINLY offered OVER AND OVER The Word.

You have plainly offered YOUR word, not THE Word. Let's try working on making that distinction.

Ok, I will completely agree that my 'understanding of The Word MOST definitely differs than yours.

From your perspective God's love for us is 'different' than the LOVE that we 'understand'. I contend that there IS NO 'true' love that has NOT come FROM God.

That was never in contention. God IS love. When one loves, it is from God. But how does that have anything to do with your statement that love = worship???

fran, you 'wouldn't' understand OR accept what I offer for it would DESTROY that which you have accepted 'as your belief system'. The church that you follow would have NONE of what I offer for to accept my words would utterly destroy the pagentry and idolotry involved with your 'faith'. Not surprising.

Perhaps 'something' has been able to PREVENT you from the obtainment of the 'perfect understanding' that Paul has told us WE CAN have. Perhaps THAT is why you are unable to understand what I offer in these words here.

Perhaps that "something" is common sense... Perhaps that "something" is presuming that God does not contradict Himself - breaking His Own command to worship ONLY Him, and yet love all. How can love = worship then? But you clearly state this is so?

You can call it 'worldly wisdom', common sense, man's understanding, you can call it whatever you choose but what I offer is NOT 'wisdom' created by the feeble understanding of man, it IS what has been offered through scripture and Spirit. I will openly 'back up' anything that I offer with scripture. That there are those that are unable to comprehend what scripture offers is NOT something that I am able to alter.

:P

'Religions' have mostly chosen to 'create' their own definitions for things pertaining to 'religion'. The debate that we entertain this very minute 'reeks' of this situation. If the 'religion' doesn't 'agree' with something offered through scripture, the easiest way to 'ignore it' is to 'pretend' that it means 'something OTHER THAN' what is actually stated.

Do you know what "religion" means? It means "bind oneself to God". Do you have a problem with that? Is there a problem with binding oneself to God with people of like mind?

Yes I do and what I KNOW certainly doesn't conform to what you offer in definition. I will ask you this: You speak of 'common sense'. I question whether you even understand the significance of this distinction in knowlede. But I'll let YOU decide the answer to that yourself.

Would it NOT be 'common sense' to assume that words offered in The Word would be offered in numbers BY their significance? In other words, wouldn't it be 'common sense' to assume that since the word LOVE is used MUCH more than HATE that the simple overwhelming use of love over hate plainly offers the significance of IMPORTANCE of one over the other?

Now, with this in mind, tell me; How many times is the word religion or religious USED in The Word?

Now, religion is NOTHING other than a set of beliefs. Whether your 'religion' is SMOKING DOPE, killing people, or belief in gods or A God. Religion IS this set of 'beliefs'. Your pitiful attempt to label religion just ISN'T so. YOUR understanding of religion may well BE what you offered. But it has MUCH more significance that the simple statement that you offer.

Case in point:

fran, pay attention here and 'see' if you ARE able to 'understand'.

I'll try... :P

WHO created the 'symbol' of the Cross? NO, I am not asking WHAT it sybolizes and who created THAT. What I am asking you is WHO 'manufactured' the FIRST 'cross' that was used to conotate ANYTHING pertaining to 'religion'? Was is God? Was it Christ? Or was is 'someone else'?

We preach Christ crucified... It is the touchstone of our faith. It calls to mind the core of our beliefs. No doubt, you have problems with what the bible teaches - that Christ was crucified - thus, you disaprove of someone many years ago making a golden cross to hang around one's neck. Why is that?

Because it DIRECTLY offers opposition to that which we have BEEN COMMANDED. We were NOT told to 'make CERTAIN' images, we were told not to MAKE ANY. I propose that you have failed to even READ the commandments, much less, understand or accept them. The next thing you'll be telling me is that they DON'T really MEAN what they state.

And WHAT does preaching Christ crucified have to do with 'graven images'?
Here's a 'good one' that I once heard a 'commedian offer'. Follow with me here:
A guy decided that; "hey, let's boil some eggs and color them to celibrate Christ's death and ressurection". The other guy says, "What do boiled colored eggs have to do with Christ?" and the first guy says, "Well.............ah............we'll then,,,,, we can HIDE EM".

The point, the first statement makes no more sense than the last. To 'start' with a 'false premiss' means that the end result MUST be as 'wrong' as the 'beginning'.

To offer further understanding; Who 'designed it'? I have 'seen' about a thousand 'different' cross designs. IF this is a valid symbol of Christianity, WHICH design IS the TRUE design of the cross? The crucifix? The Swastika? The 'plain ole rugged cross'? Which ONE is the REAL representation of the 'religion' of Christianity?

Such designs are effected by cultural, as well. That is why the Catholic Church has many different "rites". Rituals have different meanings to different cultures. Surely, you are aware that shaking one's hand does not mean the same thing to people all over the world? The idea is the same. The cross is readily identifiable by people of a particular culture, calling to mind the sacrifice of Jesus and the depths God went through to save us - since we have been bought at a GREAT price.

Wrong answer. For SOME ONE was the FIRST to use such a 'symbol'. It was NOT created by a 'group'. Perpetuated perhaps, but NOT created.

And I contend that the sign of the cross worn as adornment is MORE of a message of separation than a 'calling to mind'. It is MORE of a 'statement' than a 'rememberance'.

See, this is a tough one huh? The Catholics offer the crucifix. Hitlers 'form' of Christianity used the swastika, (yes, Hitler TOO 'claimed' to BE a 'Christian'. Was he?

Another common mistake made by anti-Chrisitans. Hitler was NOT Christian. Sure, he was born Christian, but he actively persecuted the Church and killed millions. Apostates are not Christians. He had no "form" of Christianity recognizable by any other Christian. And then again, maybe he had the "TRUTH" since he could read the bible on his own without the Church...

And there is MUCH evidence that MUCH of the CC went ALONG with Hitler. Sure, there were a few bishops that sacrificed themselves or their safety to 'help' others, (I have continually offered the understanding that there were CERTAINLY those 'within' the CC that DID follow God), but the MAJORITY of the 'clergy' were Hitler's BUDDIES.

Hitler professed to BE a 'Christian'. AHHHH, you begin to SEE the TRUTH. Just BECAUSE someone SAYS that they are a Christian does NOT make it so, or does it? So, in the same respect, just because someone is wearing a 'cross' does NOT mean they wear it to 'bring into rememberance'.

Would you say that Hitler was a 'good' representative of the Christian faith? What do you suppose his 'claim' of Christianity DID to the 'reputation' of Christianity, (The WORD 'Christianity' or Christian)?

I am NOT here to 'condemn' ANYONE for wearing a 'cross'. Just attempting to point out what MOST have already admitted; Wearing a symbol does NOT indicate ANYTHING other than their 'desire' to wear a 'particular' type of jewelry. Whether it be made from a 'stick', or an elaborately decorated piece of gold incrusted with jewels. It is NOTHING but a 'piece of jewelry'.

Wrong. You have said that wearing a cross is worship. While it is true that many people who wear a cross have no affinity with Christianity, it doesn't follow that ALL people wear a cross just because it looks pretty. Some people actually go out and buy a cross to show off their love of what God has done to the rest of the world. Have you not read Matthew 28:20? We preach the Gospel to the world - Christ crucified.

And WHAT does preaching have to DO with jewelry? Our BIGGEST and most influencial MEANS of preaching, fran, is NOT what we say or wear, it's what WE DO. It's the EXAMPLE that we offer to those around us. When we forgive our enemies, when we love our enemies, when we offer the EXACT love as offered us example BY Our Father and His Son.

Now, if when WE become ONE with Christ He LIVES in us. That OUR bodies and HIS become ONE. Do you HONESTLY 'think' that HE would wear a 'cross' around His neck? Do you honestly 'believe' that the reminder of the pain and suffering He was subjected to AT OUR HANDS, is a 'thing' that He would 'relish'?

Do you honestly think He would be ashamed to wear a cross?

No, not ashamed, disgusted at the mere THOUGHT of wearing ANY 'graven image'. For to DO SO would be to go AGAINST that which was commanded of His Father.

What died on the cross was SIN. Is this HOW we should 'remember our Savior'? I think NOT. What the lesson taught IS FREEDOM from sin. Not; to revel IN IT.

Then what was Paul thinking about preaching Christ crucified? Why was he "reveling in sin"?

NOT at all. What Christ Crucified MEAN is that He died FOR our sins. NOT SO we could sin. Teaching Christ crucified is NOT the EXTENT of Paul's teachings. It is a reference to the Death and LIFE of Christ. For Paul did NOT ONLY teach that Christ 'died on a cross', but MUCH more important WHY Christ died on the cross.

The CC is the institution that raised this 'emblem' to such a status that we find it in today.

Thank you for the compliment. We DO continue to preach Christ crucified. However, in reality, the Catholic Church doesn't force anyone to wear a crucifix. That is a pious decision that the individual makes on their own. The Church doesn't condemn people for doing it, as it is a display of our faith.

No they don't. They 'created' the practice so they most certainly wouldn't condemn ANY for 'doing it'. They also introduced 'statues' into Christianity and taught that it was OK to bow to THEM as well. And it has already been established that wearing a 'cross' is NOT a 'statement of faith', only to those that 'choose' this worldy attempt at a 'label'. For there are MANY that use this symbol to MOCK our Savior. How many do you suppose wear this symbol on their necks while committing adultery? Murdering their brothers and sisters? So, IF this sybol is a 'credible' means of sending a 'message', WHAT message do you propose that it SENDS?

And this same church would encourage the carving and bowing to statues of people that the makers have NO idea of the persons that the statues represent ACTUAL appearance.

Who cares what the person ACTUALLY looked like. Have you noticed that very few people are described in such detail to make the physical appearance clearly known? Why? Because it is not important. The bible concentrates on God's Word, theology. As long as we know WHO it is supposed to represent, it doesn't matter if the statue maker got the color of hair correct. WHY are you focusing on such inane stuff?

And here your logic is askew again, (you were the one that introduced this word into the conversation and just LOOK at how you would offer it), for the simple FACT that we DON'T know is PURE indication that we SHOULDN'T DO IT. NO graven image REMEMBER.

I would feel utterly foolish discussing such issues with those that I would HAVE to OFFER the commandments to. Fran, have you READ the commandments?

It really DOESN'T matter that they don't LOOK like those that they represent. That WASN'T my point. the POINT is that we are told NOT TO carve ANYTHING and bow to it. The REASON that I pointed out that they didn't even KNOW what the persons LOOKED like was to show JUST how basic an understanding was LOST upon those that COMMMTED such acts.

These are NOTHING but 'representations' of individuals, hence, they have NO actual power...

True..

or purpose EXEPT to be offered as 'idols'. For these ARE graven images, (created by the hands of men), in the LIKENESS of 'something' physical.

False. We don't "worship" the statue or the representation, unless it is representative of the Incarnate God.

".....in heaven or on earth........." "You shall not bow down to them or worship them.........." Do you DENY that the CC TEACHES to 'bow' and PRAY to these statues? Beware of what you state here. For I have PERSONALLY witnessed this behavior IN The CC. And it becomes apparent WHY they don't understand 'worship'. For the CC reserves it's OWN understanding of the word. You have openly stated, "unless it is representative of the Incarnate God", yet we are told NOT to do what you state is OK, REGARDLESS. Regardless of the Word that offers NOT TO DO IT PERIOD. There ARE No 'exceptions offered'. PERIOD.

I would offer this: the Jews were well versed in the idea of idols. Whether is be a 'golden calf' or some 'other' representation of the 'physical'. Study their understanding of symbolism and it becomes perfectly clear WHAT an 'idol' IS.

The Jews did not nor currently believe that God became man. Christians do believe that God became man. Thus, our understandings of statues are slightly different.

I agree with what YOU offer. And that is WHAT I warn OTHERS against. YOUR understanding IS different than those WHO originally UNDERSTOOD the TRUTH that I offer here. And YOU ARE WRONG. SOME Jews didn't nor do they accept Christ into their hearts. BUT MANY did and if not for this FACT you would NOT have even EVER heard of Christ. For ALL the apostles WERE JEWS.

Would you simply 'ignore' thier past understanding simply because MOST were not able to accept the Christ? Heck guys, ALL the apostles were Jewish. Do we have a SINGLE instance of instruction where we are TOLD that EVEN one apostle used a 'man made emblem' to represent ANYTHING? Did Paul wear a 'cross'? Peter? John? Did they 'teach us' to wear a 'cross'? What is the ONLY teaching that we HAVE concerning 'graven images'.

How dare those apostles use material things to call to mind what God has done and continues to do in the world! Things like handkerchiefs and even the shadow of Peter healed people. GASP!

EXACTLY. You poke fun of YOUR own rituals and don't even realize the signifcance of such. And you would worship other idols in this manner as well; Bones, cloth, fingernails, hair, my gosh, (Gasp), if these are NOT 'images' then I don't know how to further explain this 'unBiblical' practice.

God works through the material world. NO, God does NOT work THROUGH the material world. His work is offered IN the material world by those that FOLLOW His will, but God can ONLY be accepted SPIRITUALLY. As you may know, the New Testament says nothing about wearing crosses or NOT wearing crosses. NO IT DOESN'T. It doesn't NEED to. For the OT had already offered God's wishes for us so far as 'behavior' and adornment is concerned with regards to 'graven images'.. Thus, as Paul would say, we are free. Funny you would offer this statement. For YOUR understanding insist that "I" am NOT Free. That, according to the organization that YOU follow, I MUST conform to the teachings of YOUR understanding or I CANNOT know God or His Son. St. Augustine says we are free to do all, done in love. Paul would not have been ashamed to preach Christ crucified by wearing jewelry of the God-Man on the cross, in my opinion. Your opinion is duly noted. But I can assure you that IF they had, it would have at least been MENTIONED if it was a TRUE form of edification. There is NO record of 'crosses' signifying ANYTHING. This was a 'man-made' attempt at 'pleasing themselves' and has NO place in The Church. No place of significance that is UNLESS it is 'worshiped'.

Now, I have offered NOTHING other than 'simple understanding'. That it goes AGAINST The 'wishes' of many only shows that the 'flesh' often desires that which DOES NOT PERTAIN to Spirit. But, when we 'begin' to understand, then we ARE able to 'recognize' that ALL things ARE spiritual.

All things are spiritual? Wow... What "word" have you been reading?

And, once again, fran, I do NOT fault you for your beliefs. I simply KNOW that they are fraught with an 'understanding' that was created by MEN. Inserting their WILL over that of the Father. For we battle NOT with the physical THINGS of this world, but principalities and powers that ARE NOT physical but SPIRITUAL. So, when I offer that ALL 'things' are spiritual, I speak as to The Spirit or spirit that we discuss here, (NO, rats are NOT spiritual, unless you choose to make a graven image of them and worship them).
So the material is insignificant in comparison to that which IS Sprirtual, (or spiritual).

I would suggest to any that follow this conversation to GO BACK and read EXACTLY what we were commanded to DO or NOT DO. NO, we are NO longer BOUND to these commandments as we WERE, (and the gentiles were NEVER bound to commandments to begin with), but these commandmets WERE given for our instruction. That what was offered within them was HOW we were to offer our love to God and to our brothers and sisters. We are NOT bound by 'death' TO the commandments, but you WILL be 'hard-pressed' PLEASE God without an adherance TO THEM.

MEC

 

[Devekut]

Imagican said:

There is NOTHING offered here that is NOT TRUTH. What we Love IS that which we worship, (or it SHOULD BE).

I really think its time to clarify here. Are there persons that you love besides God? I think you stand basically alone in equating "love" with "worship". A clear explaination of what Jesus meant when he said "love they neighbour" would be great. Does God basically say "worship thy neighbour?"


Lastly, with all your anti-"religion" sentiments, you might be surprised to know that the word "religion" has not been around all that long in its current definition as "a set of beliefs". Religion originates from the word "religio" originally meaning "piety". The ancient, medieval and even Renasaisance world did not have a concept of "religion", not unlike how the Japanse lacked a word for it in their language until recently. The so called "religion" was simply a basic fact of the social makeup truly inseparable from other spheres of life (as so I think it should be).

A dichotomy between "religion" and "the Word" or "Christianity" is truly division arising from a modern concept of what we call "religion" and certainly not the kind of distinction we would have seen in ancient times.

 

[A-Christian]

(NO, rats are NOT spiritual, unless you choose to make a graven image of them and worship them).

Are you comparing a graven image of a rat with a beautiful painting of a biblical event, a simple cross worn around the neck, and a crucifix hanging on a wall? There is much beauty in Christianity and Chritians generally do a fine job of expressing that beauty. I don't worship a painting of Christ or Mary anymore than I worship a picture of my wife, children, or parents. These things which you detest MEC, are not the graven images of rats and bulls. I'm suprised you cannot see the difference.

Here is an analogy offered by Susan Cushman:
My father died in 1998. For forty-nine years my parents shared a strong Christian faithâ€â€an adoration of Godâ€â€and a strong love and respect for one another. During the last few years of their marriage, they developed a morning ritual. Upon waking, they would greet each other with the Psalmist’s words, “This is the day the Lord has made,†and the response, “Let us rejoice and be glad in it.†After my father’s death, my mother continued the tradition, greeting instead his photographâ€â€an image of her husbandâ€â€often with a kiss, and would say both the greeting and response they once shared. The love and veneration she shows to the image is passed on to the prototype, in this case her husband, whom she sees as being very much alive and waiting for her in heaven.

So it is with the veneration of icons. A worshipper enters the church and approaches an icon. Maybe it’s the icon of the saint who is commemorated on that particular day, or of Jesus or the Mother of God. Making the sign of the cross, followed by a metania, a bow from the waist, the person then kisses the icon, passing on her love and veneration to the prototype it represents. She is not worshipping the image, any more than my mother worships a photograph of my father.

Peace

 

[francisdesales]

I not only equate love with worship but state that they ARE the SAME.

And I STILL maintain that this TOO, is TRUTH. And I HAVE offered over and over that you OBVIOULSY 'misunderstand' not ONLY my words, but that which has been offered IN The Word.

I have nothing more to say! Out of your mouth you contine to condemn yourself.

Your "offering" of the "word" notwithstanding, I have yet to see you offer one Scriptural citation that shows that love = worship, nor have you addressed how God would command us to worship ONLY Him and Love EVERYONE. Make up your mind!

If God ALONE is to worshipped, how can God simultaneously command us to Love (worship) everyone???

This is common sense. You merely are adding more words and words without realizing your contradiction. You offer contradiction. I rest my case - I have nothing more to say.

 

[Imagican]

I not only equate love with worship but state that they ARE the SAME.

And I STILL maintain that this TOO, is TRUTH. And I HAVE offered over and over that you OBVIOULSY 'misunderstand' not ONLY my words, but that which has been offered IN The Word.

I have nothing more to say! Out of your mouth you contine to condemn yourself.

Your "offering" of the "word" notwithstanding, I have yet to see you offer one Scriptural citation that shows that love = worship, nor have you addressed how God would command us to worship ONLY Him and Love EVERYONE. Make up your mind!

If God ALONE is to worshipped, how can God simultaneously command us to Love (worship) everyone???

This is common sense. You merely are adding more words and words without realizing your contradiction. You offer contradiction. I rest my case - I have nothing more to say.

NO Fran, it is YOU that has refused to even offer the truth in the statement above. For The Word does NOT state that were are to ONLY worship God. It plainly states that we are to worship NOTHING BUT God AS God. A very 'different offering' than that you offer above.

And to show how askew this 'teaching IS': HOW are we to 'worship'? What IS worship? Your pitiful explanation earlier in these posts ISN' T 'all' you have to offer concerning this concept is it?

MEC

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And A,

THIS is EXACTLY what you have been 'TAUGHT' is RIGHTEOUS behavior BY 'your church'.

NEVER were these practices OFFERED 'through' The Word.

I have YET to 'state't that one CANNOT 'recieve' Salvation by following 'traditions' created by MEN. What I HAVE stated is that we HAVE been given information that makes it POSSIBLE to 'further our walk' and that to 'go against' these teachings WILL most CERTAINLY hender one's progression towards that which MOST proclaim to desire.

I have ALREADY done what I said would be 'silly'. I have gone back and offered the commandments, (or the pertinent pieces), that PLAINLY state that we are to BOW to NOTHING made by the hands of men. This commandment did NOT offer 'conditions' where it IS OK. We were 'simply' told NOT TO DO IT.

And you have offer an 'excuse' of WHY you 'choose' to follow such practices. Even in LIGHT of the scriptures offered that 'deny' the legitimacy of such behavior, you STILL choose to practice and defend this behavior.

So A, there is little that I can offer that hasn't already BEEN offered. NOT BY ME. But by the scriptures themselves. I can offer prophecy concerning such but I can convince NO ONE that chooses to defy The Spirit.

I can clearly 'see' even more NOW than when this conversation first started the detriment of the teachings that you follow. For NOW I can clearly see HOW it IS that you are UNABLE to equate worship WITH love.

Christ did NOT tell us that we WORSHIP God above all else, He TOLD us to LOVE God above all else. If this is NOT a pure indication of LOVE being on an equal basis to the 'word' worship, then I am most certainly confused as to Christ's offering concerning WHAT is MOST important.

We were COMMANDED to 'separate ourselves' from the practices of those that DO NOT KNOW or ACCEPT that offered from God. THAT is what distinguishes us from them. That is HOW we show our love for God and allow it to reflect TO others so that they too may be 'touched' by The Spirit.

Many 'religions' are rife with tradition of idol worship, (the love that they show to their icons and idols). We were MEANT to offer a 'difference' in understanding so that these are ABLE to come to the TRUTH as well. So that these too can "CONFORM" to the image of the invisible God. NO, we cannot BE God, but He most certainly wants us to CONFORM to the image that we were created of.

A, Fran, suffice is to say that our understanding of certain DOCTRINAL issues varies by degrees as VAST as this universe itself. NO doubt about this in the least.

But it is amusing to SEE 'where' they converge and become similar.

I offer NO 'ritual'. Beware even of the communion, is what I would teach. This 'being' a bogus ritual? HARDLY. For we have been warned that many now SLEEP by participating in this ritual unrighteously. So it is NOT the ritual itself that brings understanding, but the adherance to TRUTH.

But praying to statues and the creating of symbols is a 'far stretch' in liberty. Especially when we have been WARNED against this very behavior.

The MOST important thing, (light years by comparison in TRUTH), is NOT ritual, pagenty, tradition, or ANYTHING that has been 'created by men', but IS understanding. For one cannot even BEGIN to follow Christ and PLEASE God without IT first. And faulty understanding can only lead to a faulty tradition that can only lead to a 'faulty religion'. We were meant to be CLOSER to God, not bring into His offerings that which would lead us AWAY from HIm and His LOVE.

You offer enticing words that certainly appeal to the flesh. If I were inclined to follow that which 'tastes good' or 'feels good' or 'sounds good', then your words would hold MUCH truth. But what you offer are mearly MEANT to appease the Flesh and of no consequence in the order of God's will. For you openly admit that you defy God's will and are PROUD Of it. Indicating that you ARE aware of His commandments and openly defying them and offer encouragement to others to DO THE SAME.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

NO Fran, it is YOU that has refused to even offer the truth in the statement above. For The Word does NOT state that were are to ONLY worship God. It plainly states that we are to worship NOTHING BUT God AS God. A very 'different offering' than that you offer above.

Can you give me a citation from the Bible that says worship is given to ANYONE other than God or gods? Do a word search. The context of "worship" is ALWAYS given in reference to an Almighty Being OR given to a false god whom people think has supernatural power. Worship is thus always in a supernatural context. Love, on the other hand, is not. Again, your "offerings" are confused bits and pieces of truth and error.

And to show how askew this 'teaching IS': HOW are we to 'worship'? What IS worship? Your pitiful explanation earlier in these posts ISN' T 'all' you have to offer concerning this concept is it?

I hadn't realized you wanted a full exposition of Sacred Liturgy. It bears very little on our discussion on "love = worship", so I only gave you a very general definition. I apologize for my "pitiful" definition that is off-topic... If you would like, I can give you links that will give you more to read than you could finish in a month...

I do not enjoy reading very long posts, so forgive me if I do not reciprocate when you post them.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

I will attempt to offer a 'short post' then.

Anyone that 'thinks' that they can please God by following 'ritual' is confused. For ALL ritual that was EVER offered was a 'teacher'. Hoping that THROUGH sacrifice, through the LAW, through the example offered, (and perhaps even through that offered in the BEGINNING of the CC), that ALL who LOVED God COULD come to a perfect understanding of WHAT He wished would be TAUGHT.

This is NOT some superficial 'acts' of worship. What the LESSON was and IS, is SIMPLE; LOVE.

Without an understanding of the LESSON it is virtually impossible, NO MATTER HOW MUCH ritual one practices, to LEARN the TRUTH.

We HAVE the example of this in Christ Jesus. That we ARE to emulate the CORE of His example. And that 'core IS LOVE'. Learning to GIVE and NOT just TAKE. Learning to CARE about our neighbors AS OURSELVES. Learning that without GOD, none of this is even possible.

So what you seek is ALMOST impossible to find if you insist upon following 'ritual'. That is what the JEWS attempted in their MISUNDERSTANDING of the TEACHER. They followed RITUAL through OBLIGATION, (law), unable to COME to the TRUTH of the TEAHER'S LESSON, (LOVE).

I have offered the STATEMENT of Christ OVER AND OVER again and you insist upon a myopic view that 'blinds' you from understanding. You are unable to understand the 'meaning of worship' for what you have accepted in your heart is what YOU BELIEVE is pleasing to God. When in reality it takes MUCH LESS than you have been LED to believe. It's NOT what you DO but WHY YoU DO IT. That IS the lesson that ALL ritual was MEANT to TEACH. And this cannot be 'faked' through ritual or obligation for it to have ANY valid 'meaning'.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

I will attempt to offer a 'short post' then.

Anyone that 'thinks' that they can please God by following 'ritual' is confused. For ALL ritual that was EVER offered was a 'teacher'. Hoping that THROUGH sacrifice, through the LAW, through the example offered, (and perhaps even through that offered in the BEGINNING of the CC), that ALL who LOVED God COULD come to a perfect understanding of WHAT He wished would be TAUGHT.

This is NOT some superficial 'acts' of worship. What the LESSON was and IS, is SIMPLE; LOVE.

Without an understanding of the LESSON it is virtually impossible, NO MATTER HOW MUCH ritual one practices, to LEARN the TRUTH.

We HAVE the example of this in Christ Jesus. That we ARE to emulate the CORE of His example. And that 'core IS LOVE'. Learning to GIVE and NOT just TAKE. Learning to CARE about our neighbors AS OURSELVES. Learning that without GOD, none of this is even possible.

So what you seek is ALMOST impossible to find if you insist upon following 'ritual'. That is what the JEWS attempted in their MISUNDERSTANDING of the TEACHER. They followed RITUAL through OBLIGATION, (law), unable to COME to the TRUTH of the TEAHER'S LESSON, (LOVE).

I have offered the STATEMENT of Christ OVER AND OVER again and you insist upon a myopic view that 'blinds' you from understanding. You are unable to understand the 'meaning of worship' for what you have accepted in your heart is what YOU BELIEVE is pleasing to God. When in reality it takes MUCH LESS than you have been LED to believe. It's NOT what you DO but WHY YoU DO IT. That IS the lesson that ALL ritual was MEANT to TEACH. And this cannot be 'faked' through ritual or obligation for it to have ANY valid 'meaning'.

MEC

Another off-topic rant...

What does ANY of that have to do with "love = worship"? Where are the Scriptural citations I asked for? Can you give something other than your own stated direct linkage with God Himself?

Don't take it personally, but I am skeptical on your claim of that.

I have spoken with you long enough to recognize this is your mode of operation. The fallacy of argument from authority - MEC's word = God's Word. Smoke and mirrors by ranting on something that has nothing to do with the topic when you are called to task to PROVE your "offerings".

Smoke and mirrors. Some "truth".

 

[Imagican]

fran,

If you are looking for me to produce scripture that 'states' "worship your neighbor as you worship yourself" you're certainly not going to get 'that'. Define the 'means' of worship and what it STANDS for, and THEN one is CLEARLY able to SEE.

You will also not find scripture that 'states' "Satan IS the owner of this planet". But I 'believe' that ANYONE that has 'understanding' KNOWS this without the DIRECT statement.

But both these are able to BE discerned through The Word.

You state that Jesus Christ IS The Word. And His words DO offer what I have stated.

Of all the 'law', Jesus PLAINLY offers what I have stated. You just refuse to 'see' it.

If we were to 'sum up' all the law, we would find that almost EVERY bit of it can be summerized in TWO categories. Other than 'cleanliness' law, these two categories are WHAT Christ stated when He PLAINLY offered the TWO MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

If we narrow the field down to the TEN Commandments, ALL this can be defined BY these TWO categories;

The FIRST group was given to TEACH Love of God. The second was given to TEACH Love of our NEIGHBORS. Read them for yourself and if this wasn't OBVIOUS before, it will CERTAINLY become apparent NOW that you have been directed in the proper direction.

And, when we consider that you have offered a 'misdirected' interpretation of the commandments themselves, it is easy to see HOW this MEANING has been lost in translation. Allow me to demonstrate:

Exodus 20
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

WHY did God DO this?

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

WHY?

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Part ONE of the offerings on 'idolotry'.^

Note here was is ACTUALLY offered: There is NO statement here of anything other than NOT to DO it PERIOD. ANY, IS there anyone that doesn't understand the MEANING of 'ANY'?

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Please note what is offered here. If you LOVE me and keep my commandments. Now HOW and what method would you USE to keep these commandments? In other words, WHY would you DO IT and what would BE your INSPIRATION?

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Let us stop here for a second. These above concern ONLY how we are to offer DEVOTION to God and ONLY God AS GOD. In order to SHOW that we UNDERSTAND 'who' God IS, He offers these to follow. This in order to SEPARATE Him from ANY OTHER THING that could be 'considered to BE' a god.

Now I ask HOW would following these commandments be accomplished? How do you THING these SHOULD be followed by those that were given these commandments in ORDER TO PLEASE GOD? Let me offer a little hint as to the answer to these questions: Do you believe that these commandments were to be DONE through OBLIGATION?

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

These of the second half are STRICTLY how we are to 'treat' others, (Parents, neighbors, brothers and sisters, however you want to label mankind).

Now, if one reads these AS they are WRITTEN. There is NO statement confining worship to God. ONLY worshiping any 'thing', (so far as 'graven images'), AS God.

So, I propose that it is LIMITED understanding that would allow one to be UNABLE to 'see' what is offered here in TRUTH. I am relatively unconcerned with 'someone's' altered interpretation of what these words state, what MATTERS, is WHAT they STATE. In other words, that a 'church' or the CC, or the Baptist church, has decided to 're-interpret' what has 'already been offered' makes little difference in the TRUTH offered in these statements of commandments.

And the only REASONS that I can see that they are so 'diificult' to understand IS this 'teaching' that has been offered by 'man-made' churches, or the simple desire to follow one's OWN understanding than that offered by God in HIS Word.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Imagican said:

There is NOTHING offered here that is NOT TRUTH. What we Love IS that which we worship, (or it SHOULD BE).

I really think its time to clarify here. Are there persons that you love besides God? I think you stand basically alone in equating "love" with "worship". A clear explaination of what Jesus meant when he said "love they neighbour" would be great. Does God basically say "worship thy neighbour?"


Lastly, with all your anti-"religion" sentiments, you might be surprised to know that the word "religion" has not been around all that long in its current definition as "a set of beliefs". Religion originates from the word "religio" originally meaning "piety". The ancient, medieval and even Renasaisance world did not have a concept of "religion", not unlike how the Japanse lacked a word for it in their language until recently. The so called "religion" was simply a basic fact of the social makeup truly inseparable from other spheres of life (as so I think it should be).

A dichotomy between "religion" and "the Word" or "Christianity" is truly division arising from a modern concept of what we call "religion" and certainly not the kind of distinction we would have seen in ancient times.

The information that you offer WOULD be 'news' to me if it were as accurate as you offer it. But in fact, the word religion and religious IS used in The Word. I am NOT a 'proponent' of 'organized religion', for, as you offer, that IS a 'relatively recent' introduction into our societies. But as can well be SEEN, 'religion' IS simply a set of 'beliefs'. Even NOT having a 'particular SET of beliefs ITSELF, would be considered a 'religion'. Anti-religion would in FACT 'be' the religion of one who practiced such.

Now, as far as worship is concerned. I will ask this of ANYONE that doesn't understand what I am offering here: WHAT is worship? I am NOT asking for WORDS about 'concepts', I am simply ASKING what it is that MAKES worship WORSHIP? If you CAN'T answer this, then you OBVOUSLY don't even understand WHAT it IS.

And don't take my words personally. I refuse to take criticism personally so expect the SAME of others. This IS a debate of sorts and by 'dicussing' such issues is NOTHING other than agreement or disagreement. And that I may offer disagreement does NOT mean that I have offered disrespect by ANY MEANS, (or at least I have not MEANT disprespect).

And, If offer that one has a 'lack' of understanding, we are most certainly dealing with issues that have NO difinitive answers EXCEPT in the minds and hearts of those that 'choose' to even THINK about them. So PLEASE, don't take it 'personal'. If those with whom I debate are SECURE in their understanding and on solid foundation, then there is NO reason that ANYTHING that I can or could say that should offer ANY 'personal' wrath.

We are ALL answerable to that which we believe and even MORE SO what we TEACH. I am WELL aware of this FACT. So, while many here take my 'differing views' as being SINGULAR thinking, I assure you that there is MUCH MORE to it than that. For I have NOT attempted to conform to that which MAY 'please' those with whom I converse. I have simply been led to understanding and knowledge that is BEYOND my NEED for other to accept me, or to simply FIT IN. For it has been CLEARLY shown that to 'fit in' for the simple idea of 'not rocking the boat' has NEVER been the WAY that God has offered TRUTH to those that He loves. And WHAT prophet has NOT been ridiculed and spat upon for their beliefs being DIFFERENT than those that the hears have CHOSEN to follow? Hmmmmmm.

MEC