"Symbol of Christianity?"

[turnorburn]

Graven images can mean anything, dogs cats, mice, and rock stars etc.

If your Catholic then you already know that their Cathedrals are dripping of graven images.

you might want to remove your avatar.....looks like a graven image

 

[Imagican]

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

Now, what is it that you DON'T understand here? Is it the 'graven' part?

Context is absolutely critical in biblical interpretation. The second commandment is three verses long:

Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Exo 20:6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

I'm sure you would agree that the first four Commandments can be summed as: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" and the last six as "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The context is that of worship. We are not to create images in the form of any created thing for the purpose of worshiping creation instead of the Creator. We see the consequences of this in Romans 1:

Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

What these passages are not saying is that we can never create images in the form of something in creation. The very idea is absurd and goes against the fact that we, as created in the image of God, are creative beings. Indeed, God even has the Israelites created cherubim to sit on the Ark (Exodus 25:18-20).

The second commandment is not a prohibition against artistic expression or the use of images in worship; it is against the worship of the images.

Free,

I offer that your interpretation is tainted with the trappings of the World. WHY do you 'suppose' that we were WARNED against ANY graven images 'beging MADE'?

Let me see if I can make this MORE SIMPLE: 'What do you consider artistic expression? What is the NATURE of artistic expression? Is ALL 'artistic expression' RIGHTEOUS. What distinguishes the difference, in your opinion?

I propose that we were 'created' to perform ONE purpose. That IS love. NOT love of this 'world' or the 'things' in it. but GOD, (as you have pointed out), above ALL things, and our neighbors AS OURSELVES. Now WHERE is 'artistic expression' offered in the above?

All 'things' that 'take away' from the TWO commandments that you yourself have alluded to, 'take away' from these TWO. If you are spending your time 'making graven images', you are 'TAKING AWAY' time that would be BETTER spent offering your love to God and your neighbor.

Of what POSITIVE purpose could your 'graven images' serve? What 'good' could come from a statue or painting? If you are 'of the world' then you could certainly explain the nature, composition, and talent of the one that 'created' this 'work of art'. But WHAT does 'artistic expression' have to do with the love of God or one's neighbor?

Art is NOTHING more than a 'waste of one's time' that could be better spent offered in love of God or neighbor.

I know, you don't get it and probably WON'T. For the love of this world have superimposed itself OVER that of God. Not only to you and myself, but to the world in general. We have BECOME lovers of 'art' and 'entertainment' OVER that of God Himself. Choosing to be 'football fans' MORE than fans of God. Choosing to spend MORE of your wealth on 'arts' and 'entertainment' than on the welfare of our neighbors. Placing a 'higher emphasis on the MATERIAL than the SPIRITUAL.

Now, PLEASE, show me WHERE we were told to WASTE our time on 'art'. Show me where we were offered 'understanding' that it's OK to worship one's guitar or paintbrush. Show me HOW these 'works of art' are ABLE to bring ONE SHRED of TRUTH into that which pertains to God.

THAT, my friend, is WHY we were told NOT to dwell on 'graven images'. For they will most certainly 'take away' that which we have been instructed to DO; Love God and love our neighbors. Can't you SEE purely and utterly that 'art' is a disapline of THE WORLD. That the simple FACT that there are those that would pay tens of millions of dollars to own a 'graven image' created by a lunatic points PURELY to 'this world'.

We are a 'part' of this world Free, but we are to separate ourselves from it's TRAPPINGS. We are to AVOID the temptations of idleness and complacency. We are to find our pleasure in that which is pleasing to God NOT that which is pleasing to the senses. Self indulgence and decadence is NOT 'the way' in which those that LOVE God have been instructed. That is the 'nature of the world'. Carnality in it's finest.

Look WHO the 'artists' CAME from. What lineage produced those that would 'create' graven images and add importance to their 'character', in a sense, worshiping these 'creations'. If you don't know to what I refer, then a re-reading of Genisis may be in order. Cain's descendants were the ONLY one's that we actually HAVE the written word concerning the creation of works in brass and musical instruments and such. Let's see? So you believe that the descendants of Cain were doing so in order to 'honor God'? That these descendants were 'righteous' with God? Now, WHY do you 'think' that we were GIVEN this information? Of all the 'creations' of mankind, WHY do you 'think' that it was mentioned 'these things' of 'artistic expression'?

The ONLY way that one is able to come to an understanding of WHAT God wishes for US is to STOP, erase that which the 'world would teach you' and START OVER with a 'blank slate', if you will. And allow God NOT to 'overlap' that which the world has taught, but ERASE that 'mindset' of SELF. Self indulgence, self importance, SELF expression, etc...... Otherwise you are simply 'another member of the world' SPEAKING of Christ and His Father but LIVING for the World.

And the FIRST step is UNDERSTANDING and recognition. For without these two, everything else is perverted or demented so far as 'truth' is concerned.

No doubt, these are HARD WORDS to digest. NEVER have any of 'truth' been palatable to 'the world'. For the world sees things through a myopic lense focused on SELF. Being unable to come to an UNDERSTANDING of US; The Family of God.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And I propose that 'art' is MOST LIKELY an 'expression of self' created by those LACKING a 'communion with God'. Brought about by the 'separation' instilled in the 'spirit of Cain'. His descendants, being SEPARATED from God, found a 'spiritual NEED' of imortality. And the ONLY way in which they were ABLE to obtain this was through the 'leaving behind' some sort of 'impression' of their selves. NOT being offered the promise of a 'furthering' of life, they tried their best to 'live on' in their personal expressions of, what you would call; art.

For we can date 'art' back to pre-historic times. Times when there were gods MANY yet NONE able to offer a sense of 'truth' that was able to secure one's conviction of purpose. History is rife with examples of 'statues' of gods. Paintings of gods and demons. That we have been exposed to this for SO LONG that we have LOST the membrance of what 'brought it about' does NOT change the FACT that these images and idols WERE created to WORSHIP. Exposing ourselves to them visually on a day to day basis and offering; what you would call 'appreciation', now, being nothing more than the SAME adoration that was offered to them in times past as WORSHIP.

WHY Free, WHY would someone offer MILLIONS of dollars for a 'work of art'? Why would someone offer TWO CENTS for a 'piece of art'? We 'admire' the artist in the SAME sense that we are SUPPOSE to honor God: THE CREATOR. The MORE aritistically talented the 'creator', the MORE we value their 'creation'. WHY? Do you REALLY think that famous and wealthy artists are famous and rich 'as a blessing' from God? Or do you recognize that their 'power' comes from a 'different' source?

God will 'bless' those that please Him. Satan will 'bless' those that please Him. God will offer SPIRITUAL blessings that are EVERLASTING. Satan is ONLY able to offer blessings that pertain to the 'flesh'; material 'things'. Sex, drugs, money, power, prestige, self honor, self glory. Those SAME 'things' that caused his fall; those things that pertained to 'self'.

And have you ever noticed how this 'belief' in 'art' has been perpetuated in the 'guise' of being FROM God? That those that are given these riches and 'self importance' through our honor, almost invariably when interviewed, will offer 'thanks' to God for their talent? They ARE being sincere! The problem lies NOT in their words, but to WHOM they consider to BE their God.

For a 'rap artist' to sing of rape and murder and then 'thank God' for there 'blessings' could be NO MORE sacriligious than an outright offering of human sacrifice to Satan. For God CANNOT nor WILL NOT offer MONETARY blessings to those that 'teach' contradictory to His Word, (rarely would He 'make' ANY rich simply for the purpose of 'self indulgence'. The ONLY way that God would offer monetary riches would be to THOSE reponsible ENOUGH to be entrusted with doing the RIGHT THINGS with wealth). Monetary blessings are however offered by Satan for that IS his 'way' of seducing those that follow him.

So, I ask again WHAT 'HOLY Spiritual' benefit do 'you' belive is offered through 'artistic expression'? Painting pictures of 'man-made holy figures'? Painting pictures of Jesus that 'don't even look like Him'? Painting picutes of God portraying Him to be a 'man'? Casing crosses in gold and silver and worn about the necks of those that live 'for' this world? Hmmmmm.........

I stated before and I'll state it again; these are 'trappings' of THIS WORLD. Meant to be admired and the admiration to be placed on THEM in order to 'take away' the understanding of those that 'seek' righteousness or to bind them that be lost in an unhealthy worship of that created by man, (the creature), instead of the Creator.

For MOST do NOT have a 'healthy relationship' with God. And because of this they are EASILY led to follow what the world 'teaches' them. Choosing to 'fit in' rather than 'let go'. Choosing to BE A PART of this world instead of forsaking it for 'something' MUCH GREATER.

And I KNOW that this goes AGAINST EVERYTHING that the world would 'teach you'. No doubt about it. But the 'truth' is as though 'blindness' to the world. Choosing instead to follow and 'believe in' that which PLEASES the senses of 'himself' rather than a 'holy' adherance to that offered from above.

You will NEVER please God by spending your time with a 'paintbrush' in your hand. Nor will you please God by handing these same pictures in your home or business. These are 'trappings' of the world meant to appease the carnal senses and NOT offering ANYTHING holy in return. Self indulgence is ALL they can provide. A sense of 'pleasure' to the senses that offers NOTHING of The Spirit, but IN a 'spirit, of carnality that separates the 'truth' of this world from the TRUTH of God.

MEC

 

[Free]

Your have some serious problems with your reasoning and understanding of Scripture.

Now, PLEASE, show me WHERE we were told to WASTE our time on 'art'. Show me where we were offered 'understanding' that it's OK to worship one's guitar or paintbrush.

I will show you how art is not at all a waste of time if you tell me how you have come to the conclusion that creating art implies that an artist worships their guitar or their paintbrush.

So, I ask again WHAT 'HOLY Spiritual' benefit do 'you' belive is offered through 'artistic expression'? Painting pictures of 'man-made holy figures'? Painting pictures of Jesus that 'don't even look like Him'? Painting picutes of God portraying Him to be a 'man'? Casing crosses in gold and silver and worn about the necks of those that live 'for' this world? Hmmmmm.........

First, I cannot help but notice that in your tirade against art that you did not even address the verse I gave. So here I will give it again for all to see your response:

What these passages are not saying is that we can never create images in the form of something in creation. The very idea is absurd and goes against the fact that we, as created in the image of God, are creative beings. Indeed, God even has the Israelites created cherubim to sit on the ark (Exodus 25:18-20).

And that's not the end of it. Regarding the ark:

Exo 31:1 The LORD said to Moses,
Exo 31:2 "See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah,
Exo 31:3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship,
Exo 31:4 to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver, and bronze,
Exo 31:5 in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, to work in every craft.

Regarding the Temple:

1Ki 6:16 He built twenty cubits of the rear of the house with boards of cedar from the floor to the walls, and he built this within as an inner sanctuary, as the Most Holy Place.
1Ki 6:17 The house, that is, the nave in front of the inner sanctuary, was forty cubits long.
1Ki 6:18 The cedar within the house was carved in the form of gourds and open flowers. All was cedar; no stone was seen.
1Ki 6:19 The inner sanctuary he prepared in the innermost part of the house, to set there the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
1Ki 6:20 The inner sanctuary was twenty cubits long, twenty cubits wide, and twenty cubits high, and he overlaid it with pure gold. He also overlaid an altar of cedar.
1Ki 6:21 And Solomon overlaid the inside of the house with pure gold, and he drew chains of gold across, in front of the inner sanctuary, and overlaid it with gold.
1Ki 6:22 And he overlaid the whole house with gold, until all the house was finished. Also the whole altar that belonged to the inner sanctuary he overlaid with gold.
1Ki 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high.
1Ki 6:24 Five cubits was the length of one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the length of the other wing of the cherub; it was ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other.
1Ki 6:25 The other cherub also measured ten cubits; both cherubim had the same measure and the same form.
1Ki 6:26 The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was that of the other cherub.
1Ki 6:27 He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house. And the wings of the cherubim were spread out so that a wing of one touched the one wall, and a wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; their other wings touched each other in the middle of the house.
1Ki 6:28 And he overlaid the cherubim with gold.
1Ki 6:29 Around all the walls of the house he carved engraved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms.
1Ki 6:30 The floor of the house he overlaid with gold in the inner and outer rooms.

1Ki 6:32 He covered the two doors of olivewood with carvings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers. He overlaid them with gold and spread gold on the cherubim and on the palm trees.

1Ki 6:35 On them he carved cherubim and palm trees and open flowers, and he overlaid them with gold evenly applied on the carved work.

1Ki 7:18 Likewise he made pomegranates in two rows around the one latticework to cover the capital that was on the top of the pillar, and he did the same with the other capital.
1Ki 7:19 Now the capitals that were on the tops of the pillars in the vestibule were of lily-work, four cubits.
1Ki 7:20 The capitals were on the two pillars and also above the rounded projection which was beside the latticework. There were two hundred pomegranates in two rows all around, and so with the other capital.
1Ki 7:21 He set up the pillars at the vestibule of the temple. He set up the pillar on the south and called its name Jachin, and he set up the pillar on the north and called its name Boaz.
1Ki 7:22 And on the tops of the pillars was lily-work. Thus the work of the pillars was finished.

1Ki 7:24 Under its brim were gourds, for ten cubits, compassing the sea all around. The gourds were in two rows, cast with it when it was cast.
1Ki 7:25 It stood on twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east. The sea was set on them, and all their rear parts were inward.

1Ki 7:28 This was the construction of the stands: they had panels, and the panels were set in the frames,
1Ki 7:29 and on the panels that were set in the frames were lions, oxen, and cherubim. On the frames, both above and below the lions and oxen, there were wreaths of beveled work.

1Ki 7:36 And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths all around.
1Ki 7:37 After this manner he made the ten stands. All of them were cast alike, of the same measure and the same form.

And that was just a quick search. The ark and the Temple are works of art, commissioned by God.

Look WHO the 'artists' CAME from. What lineage produced those that would 'create' graven images and add importance to their 'character', in a sense, worshiping these 'creations'. If you don't know to what I refer, then a re-reading of Genisis may be in order. Cain's descendants were the ONLY one's that we actually HAVE the written word concerning the creation of works in brass and musical instruments and such. Let's see? So you believe that the descendants of Cain were doing so in order to 'honor God'? That these descendants were 'righteous' with God? Now, WHY do you 'think' that we were GIVEN this information? Of all the 'creations' of mankind, WHY do you 'think' that it was mentioned 'these things' of 'artistic expression'?

Have you not read of the worship given by the Israelites to God? Have you not read of David's worship with instruments? Do I really need to produce Scriptural support for this?

Do you ever thoroughly study a topic before making up your mind about it? These verses utterly demolish your arguments against art. And let it be known that it is not my reasoning or arguments but Holy Scripture which has proven you wrong. It is clearly seen that artistic ability is given by God, as one would expect since we are made in God's image, and that art is used in the worship of God.

And I propose that 'art' is MOST LIKELY an 'expression of self' created by those LACKING a 'communion with God'.

And I propose that most everything you post in these forums is MOST LIKELY an 'expression of self' created by someone LACKING a 'knowledge of the True God'--the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and God Incarnate, and the Holy Spirit. Your continued denial of the Trinity is why so much of your theology is anti-biblical.

 

[Imagican]

Free,

Sorry for the delayed response. Business you know. Gotta work sometimes.

I think we have had this discussion in the past, (I know I have discussed it and I 'think' that you were involved. It was over a year ago and my memory isn't what it use to be). Let me offer a 'brief' summary to what I refer:

Music IS 'spiritual'. PERIOD. It doesn't matter how simple or complex, it is ALL spiritual. The REASON that it is spiritual is that it was ORIGINALLY designed as a 'form of worship'. This has NOT changed in that it is STILL a 'form of worship'.

Yes, there IS Spiritual music. But that is limited in its scope, (and I believe), and has been all but abandoned. In it's place has substituted 'something else'. While STILL a 'form of worship', it has been directed AWAY from The Creator and focused in 'another direction'.

ALL of it? I question whether there is ANY Spiritual music left. What we have now is 'spiritual music' designed to satisfy the 'carnal' rather than 'holy'. Even that which so many 'Christians' BELIEVE to be 'holy' is actually JUST THE OPPOSITE.

What MAKES one decide that they WANT to become a 'musician'? Why does one 'decide' to devote themselves to an instrument or voice? You TELL ME this and you will answer EVERY QUESTION that I have raised in this discussion. From 'crosses' to 'guitars'. You answer this ONE question and you wil have EVERY answer you desire.

Satan LOVES music. Literally. ESPECIALLY that devoted to HIM. And ANY music that is carnal by nature IS HIS MUSIC.

Satan wants each and every one of us to believe that WE are our OWN gods. That we need NO OTHER god than ourselves. So, he rewards those that long for 'self' with the trappings that PLEASE 'self'. Respect, worship, money, honor, devotion, importance. ALL those things that BELONG to GOD, Satan offers to 'self'.

Music, other than wealth, is the MOST POWERFUL TOOL in Satan's possession. Through it he has managed to ALTER the 'spirituality' of mankind. Subtly at first, but NOW it has become outright and brazen in it's content. NOT ONLY in lyrics, but in the SOUNDS themselves.

There IS that which is PLEASING to God. And then there is that which MOCKS that which is pleasing to God. Simple alterations are able to change 'holy' music into UNHOLY music. The lyrics are secondary.

ANY music that makes one desire to 'copulate' IS UNHOLY. Any music that encourages one to DRINK or do DRUGS is unholy. And music that encourages CREATIVITY is 'UNHOLY'. You will undoubtably deny this and accuse ME of being 'crazy' for offering such profound statements. But Free, WHAT IS CREATIVITY? Answer this and you HAVE YOUR ANSWER. And I propose that IF YOU CAN'T, then it IS YOUR 'trinity' that HIDES this answer FROM YOU. For the sake of DESIRE, Satan would LOVE for you to be UNABLE to answer this question.

I'll stop for now. I have offered enough here to break the teeth of the 'average' "Christian". But WAIT until the answer is revealed.

MEC

 

[turnorburn]

Too many people want to simply

it "get this"
a Missionary went into Africa wife and two daughters with him, they were setting things up
when the girls wanted to listen to some music. Next they started the player and as soon as they did that a man in the village went running to the Missionary crying "Why are you playing that"
Did you not know its that same beat the witch doctors use when they call up evil spirits, Um. :o

Thanks for your post, is was excellent! and they still ignore it, even after I told them that story.
Almost all of your rock stars are known Satan worshipers, wow man that's bad..

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[Imagican]

Neat story. Never heard that one before.

but I can offer this;

The late Robert Palmer, Mick Fleetwood, Peter Gabriel, David Byrne, among others are KNOWN for visiting the islands and attending 'voodoo type' ritual in order to gain NEW 'beats' that they have incorporated into their music. Some of which are their most popular songs.

You're absolutely RIGHT. So many have become SO complacent that they not only WON'T listen, but will 'take offense' when words such as these are offered. Choosing that which is appeasing to the 'flesh' to the detriment of the soul REGARDLESS of 'fair warning' offered.

Music goes back to the beginning of time so far as man is concerned. From the study of ancient cultures we are able to see that music was used 'ritualisticly' in EVERY culture that we have encountered. From the American Indians to the tribes of Africa, we can STILL observe this today. And invariably their music and dance was a 'religious thing'.

I would be the LAST to offer that there is NOT 'holy music'. But we have veered SO FAR from The Spirit that it is UNLIKELY that we hear MUCH, if any at all in the present time in which we live.

MOST musicians, poets, writters, etc..........(artists in general), will often offer upon being asked, 'where did you find your inspiration'? They will answer with something of this sort: "I don't know, it JUST CAME TO ME. Or, it was something out of one of my dreams. It can even be as profound as 'voices in one's head', or simply; "I don't know".

People, don't you realize that NOTHING on this planet happens 'by mistake'? That EVERY word we utter, every breath we take, EVERYTHING is PURPOSE. Whether we choose to follow 'one' purpose or another, EVERY moment of our lives HAS PURPOSE.

If you really DON'T 'believe' in God and just like to 'say' that you're a 'Christian' then I guess it's relatively EASY to 'believe' that we are our OWN gods. That it is OUR ability to DO what we will that matters most. That success is based on what material possessions one owns and how well they can dress. How much money they have in the bank and whether they drive the nicest car in the parking lot.

But the TRUTH is that EACH of these things that I have listed, (and the list goes on and on), are NOTHING but 'symbols' of WHO we 'think' we ARE. And when it's ALL 'said and done', not a SINGLE one of us will have a SINGLE one of these items with us when we're gone. All the people that they could have helped, all the 'good' that they could have done with their wealth and NOT A BIT OF IT are they able to take with them when they are gone. Building treasure here on earth instead of in heaven to be waiting on them IF they are lucky enough to arrive.

And WHERE does this 'understanding' of 'things' come from? I don't know how every one on this forum worships. Not really sure which churches that they attend. But the one's that I have experienced the pastors do REAL well. And the ONLY way that this is POSSIBLE is for them to TEACH that it's OK to SPLURGE on oneself. That it's OK to have NICE jewelry and fancy cars. So long as the congregation is wiling to 'toss it on the plate'. they are willing to 'take it' and spend it.

And I can hear the replies already, "But OUR church has missionaries in five countries", "But we have a 'soup kitchen' that we operate five days a week". "But Look at the BEAUTIFUL church we've built. WE, WE, WE, WE. Never have I visited a church that did NOT offer their bragging of all the 'glorious things' that they were doing with God's money. Folks, it's ALL God's money unless you gained through allegiance to Satan.

And the neatest thing I've ever seen or heard is the churches that TEACH that the MORE we give the greater our 'return' will be. Funny, but it seems as though the ONLY people that are being taught this is the congregation. For the pastors don't seem to be 'giving a CENT'. Just taking and then crying cause 'that ain't enough'

I know, off topic right? Wrong. It all follows the same topic. Symbolism in Christianity. The churches 'created it' and of course there was a 'reason'. Just like the Israelites that INSISTED that
God as their KING' was NOT ENOUGH. They wanted their cake and to eat it too. The problem arose when they were BURDENED with a 'fleshly king'. Even though they had a 'couple' of 'good one's', MOST were ruthless and abusive of their power.

But it was the 'symbol' that mattered to the people. They wanted a 'SYMBOL' to serve. NOt being satisfied with an 'invisible God', they NEEDED a 'symbol'.

So, it goes back to the beginning of mankind; this NEED for symbols............

And Free, others, I haven't even TOUCHED on the POWER OF SYBOLS yet. I could go on for WEEKS on that subject. But I'm sure that you would just ridicule and deny what I have to offer on that topic as well.

But just a 'taste' of truth folks. SYMBOLS have POWER. Colors, shapes, composition, the materials that they are 'BUILT with'. There is POWER involved. Power that is OLDER than mankind itself. Power to 'make or break' 'build or destroy', 'enlighten or confuse'. POWER. And I mean REAL power...................

MEC

 

[Imagican]

"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosphy. Music is the electrical soil in which the spirit lives, thinks and invents." - Ludwig van Beethoven

 

[Free]

Seeing as how this relates to another thread, I'm going to bump it.

Imagican,

You still did not even addressed the Scriptures I gave.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Graven images can mean anything, dogs cats, mice, and rock stars etc.

If your Catholic then you already know that their Cathedrals are dripping of graven images.

you might want to remove your avatar.....looks like a graven image

The commandment about “graven images†is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.†Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made?

No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.â€Â

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image†referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... ongs=06459 ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

 

[turnorburn]

Say what you will, but I have a huge problem with your church leaving Jesus crucified
on your crosses. Does this have a special meaning, he is finished you know so why leave
him there. I'm sure he would like an explanation as well.

 

[Imagican]

Graven images can mean anything, dogs cats, mice, and rock stars etc.

you might want to remove your avatar.....looks like a graven image

[/quote]
The commandment about “graven images†is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.†Here, God is commanding that images be made!

And THESE were commissioned DIRECTLY from God Himself. There IS a 'difference'.

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made?

NO. There is NO 'contradiction'. We are NOT to make 'graven images' UNTO ourselves. WhatEVER God commands is done so for a 'purpose'. We are NOT 'our Own Gods. It is NOT UP TO US to decide God's WILL.

No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.â€Â

And you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. They have chosen to interpret it 'in their OWN way'. Choosing to IGNORE what was offered in favor of SELF.

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image†referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... ongs=06459 ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

And 'Strong's Concordance' is NOTHING other than 'personal interpretation'. Interpretation influenced by a couple of thousand years of Catholic baggage.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

It BECOMES a 'false God' when someone 'creates' something in the 'likeness' of something that CANNOT be accurately DONE. Like 'creating' the Birth date of Christ. Making a 'likeness' that has NO resemblance to TRUTH IS 'making a false God'. What this 'creates' is NO different than the Jews INSISTING that an 'invisible God' WASN'T 'enough'. The CC has created the SAME rebelious sense in that 'an invisible God' ISN'T 'enough' for them so they decided to create 'their OWN Gods' in the form of statuary and paintings. Images that they bow to and pray to. Worshiping these 'graven images' as IF they were REAL.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.[/quote]

Now SHOW ME that your statement IS Biblical. This is NOT offered in The Word. This is a 'made up' statement that has NO authoritive backing WHATSOEVER. Nothing other than 'opinion'.

Now I ask this: What if the painting or artwork was of Satan 'raping' Mary? From your perspective, so long as it is a 'beautiful work' then there is NOTHING 'wrong with it'. I couldn't disagree MORE.

And the point that I've already made in the past: what if the INTENT in the heart of the 'creator' WAS to 'create' a FALSE God. What if that is EXACTLY what was IN HIS HEART at the MOMENT of the inspiration of their ART? What THEN, my friend. It is in the 'guise' of something HOLY, but the intent is UN-HOLY. What then? Is it OK for us to admire this 'work' and even 'bow to it' or 'pray to it'?

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Say what you will, but I have a huge problem with your church leaving Jesus crucified
on your crosses. Does this have a special meaning, he is finished you know so why leave
him there. I'm sure he would like an explanation as well.

There are two reason:

1) A Catholic Mass is a re-presentation of Calvary. In a mystical way we cannot fully fathom, the once for all sacrafice of Christ, which is ever-present before the Faither (because God is "outside" of time) is made present for us, "in time". So, at the Mass, we are at Calvary. All the imagery at a Catholic Mass symbolizes the heavenly liturgy, and Christ on the cross reminds us of where we are when the great mystical event is taking place. It is one of the beautiful things about the Mass that few people stop to think about.

2) There is no resurrection without the cross. We Catholics know that, while we may look forward to the resurrection, we must also suffer with him in this life. This is an aspect of Christianity many modern Christians like to ignore. He who does not pick up his cross daily is not worthy to follow Christ. Suffering has a redemptive quality. The crucifix reminds us of this humbling truth.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...And 'Strong's Concordance' is NOTHING other than 'personal interpretation'....

As is yours. You would do well to remember that.

 

[Vic C.]

2) There is no resurrection without the cross. We Catholics know that, while we may look forward to the resurrection, we must also suffer with him in this life. This is an aspect of Christianity many modern Christians like to ignore. He who does not pick up his cross daily is not worthy to follow Christ. Suffering has a redemptive quality. The crucifix reminds us of this humbling truth.

While I can agree to a point (as my siggy conforms) there is the flipside of the cross reflected in this and many other passages:

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The barren Cross is my symbol of hope, redemption and eternal life. Without the resurrection, there is no hope.

Both the crucifixion and barren cross have validity in a Christian's life. It's all a matter of perspective; you choose a suffering Jesus; we choose a Jesus who has defeated Satan and death and has resurrected and is alive at the right hand of the Father.

Everything changed at the Cross. We live on the Light side of the Cross. We are no longer in it's shadow. The veil has been torn!

He is risen; He is risen indeed!

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The barren Cross is my symbol of hope, redemption and eternal life.

Without the resurrection, there is no hope.

And without the suffering, there is no resurrection:

Colossians 1:24: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions."

Or as the nuns say when you stub your toe: "Offer it up to God". Lot of wisdom there. :D

 

[Vic C.]

... Or as the nuns say when you stub your toe: "Offer it up to God". Lot of wisdom there. :D

But I need all my toes; don't I? 8-) Can I offer up the sister's toe instead? :-D

 

[Imagican]

Hey guys, name me a SINGLE piece of 'religious art' that depicts THE TRUTH. Either in it's representation of Christ or God or ANY of the figures of the Bible. NAME ME ONE that is an ACTUAL depiction of ANYTHING REAL. Heck, for that matter we DON'T even KNOW what 'form' of CROSS Christ was sacrificed upon.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Hey guys, name me a SINGLE piece of 'religious art' that depicts THE TRUTH.....

Homer Simpson goes to confession:

LOL. Gotta learn how to lighten up man.

 

[Imagican]

and NEXT you'll be promoting 'South Park'?

MEC