Taking a look at the Statement of Faith

[MisterE]

Statement of Faith​

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ChristianForum's official Statement of Faith

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

The Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.(Matt Perman 2006).

More accurate to say there is one Godhead. For example, Jesus prayed to the Father that the believers in him would be one, as he and the Father are one, that would be millions of believers that are to be one, a unit.

We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally. They can be saved through repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (atonement) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation. For children and the mentally challenged, they are covered by Jesus’ teaching, 'The kingdom of heaven belongs to people like them" (Matt 19:14 NIRV). Furthermore, We believe children and those with mental incapabilities who have no knowledge of good and evil, being innocent in the eyes of God, will be with Him if they should die in this state. (Deuteronomy 1:39) Those who have not heard the gospel, 'have no excuse’ before God because they have not pursued the evidence for God in creation (Rom 1:18—24a NIRV).

No person is lost eternally due to sin. All sins have been paid for, and all sins have been imputed to Christ, not the person that commits . All unbelievers have been redeemed, but that does not mean they are saved. Salvation only comes from a person accepting God's offer of salvation.

The visible Body of Christ (The Church) is universal in nature and not specific to one denomination. It consists of all believers who have confessed Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and have been baptized.

The oldest and best NT manuscripts do not contain the second half of Chapter 16 in the Gospel of Mark. So, vs 16 is not in the inspired text. It was added later, much later. One might content that the baptism is a reference to Spiritual Baptism, the basis for Positional Truth, but I don't see that. The belief that physical baptism is required for salvation means that the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ was not sufficient to pay the price for our salvation. It also makes for a works based salvation.

We believe in a personal devil, Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell (the Lake of Fire). They seek to deceive people, defeat believers, and destroy the work of God. They can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of conscious torment where unbelievers will dwell.

After heaven and earth are burned up, heaven and earth will be where the renovated earth was.

We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the Body of Christ, the true Church, and sealed with the Holy Spirit.

We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord.

We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ by way of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[hawkman]

The visible Body of Christ (The Church) is universal in nature and not specific to one denomination. It consists of all believers who have confessed Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and have been baptized.

The oldest and best NT manuscripts do not contain the second half of Chapter 16 in the Gospel of Mark. So, vs 16 is not in the inspired text. It was added later, much later. One might content that the baptism is a reference to Spiritual Baptism, the basis for Positional Truth, but I don't see that. The belief that physical baptism is required for salvation means that the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ was not sufficient to pay the price for our salvation. It also makes for a works based salvation.

I have found the argument over baptism to be an odd one . If you are a born again Christian you should be baptized , it is an outward showing of your confession of faith before the world . If you want to skip being baptized in your walk with Christ I would ask why is that ? Required or not , I would not want to find myself not recommending being baptized . Do you recommend a new convert should be baptized MisterE ?
Matthew 28
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[MisterE]

I have found the argument over baptism to be an odd one . If you are a born again Christian you should be baptized , it is an outward showing of your confession of faith before the world . If you want to skip being baptized in your walk with Christ I would ask why is that ? Required or not , I would not want to find myself not recommending being baptized . Do you recommend a new convert should be baptized @MisterE ?

I too believe that a Christian should be baptized. All I wanted to say is that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. A new believer is instantly, eternally saved upon faith in Christ. He will remain saved his whole life even if he is never baptized or renounces Christ later in his life.

Salvation is a matter of faith in Christ plus nothing. Also, I didn't want someone to quote a verse to support his position using a verse that does not appear in the earliest manuscripts.

Every deathbed acceptance of God's offer of salvation is valid, despite not being baptized. I just think that bible students should get their Theology right, and stop selling a false Gospel.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is the Baptism of Christ for receiving the Holy Spirit that is different from John's baptism.


Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, (fire means empowerment)

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Seven works of the Holy Spirit in sanctification
1. Transforms us - Romans 12:1-2; 2Corinthians 3:18
2. Convicts us of sin - John 16:8-11
3. Guides us into all truths - John 14:26
4. Empowers us to proclaim Christ - Acts 1-8; Ephesians 1:13
5. Gives us Spiritual gifts - 1Corinthians 12
6. Empowers us to worship - Ephesians 3:14-19
7. Leads us - Galatians 5:25

We put on Jesus by the renewal of our mind, body and soul through Jesus life, death and resurrection by which we can reconcile ourselves back to Gods grace and mercy through His Salvation of Spiritual renewal and Spiritual rebirth of spirit. We now have the mind of Christ as joint heirs with Jesus as we walk in the path of Jesus and not our own path anymore. John 3:3-21

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.

Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Holy Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26. The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have repented and received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to learn all truths and to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.

After repentance and the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7, we are then baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire through that of Christ baptism according to Acts 2:38, 39, Matthew 3:11.

 

[Groovy]

Statement of Faith​

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ChristianForum's official Statement of Faith

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

The Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.(Matt Perman 2006).

More accurate to say there is one Godhead. For example, Jesus prayed to the Father that the believers in him would be one, as he and the Father are one, that would be millions of believers that are to be one, a unit.

We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally. They can be saved through repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (atonement) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation. For children and the mentally challenged, they are covered by Jesus’ teaching, 'The kingdom of heaven belongs to people like them" (Matt 19:14 NIRV). Furthermore, We believe children and those with mental incapabilities who have no knowledge of good and evil, being innocent in the eyes of God, will be with Him if they should die in this state. (Deuteronomy 1:39) Those who have not heard the gospel, 'have no excuse’ before God because they have not pursued the evidence for God in creation (Rom 1:18—24a NIRV).

No person is lost eternally due to sin. All sins have been paid for, and all sins have been imputed to Christ, not the person that commits . All unbelievers have been redeemed, but that does not mean they are saved. Salvation only comes from a person accepting God's offer of salvation.

The visible Body of Christ (The Church) is universal in nature and not specific to one denomination. It consists of all believers who have confessed Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and have been baptized.

The oldest and best NT manuscripts do not contain the second half of Chapter 16 in the Gospel of Mark. So, vs 16 is not in the inspired text. It was added later, much later. One might content that the baptism is a reference to Spiritual Baptism, the basis for Positional Truth, but I don't see that. The belief that physical baptism is required for salvation means that the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ was not sufficient to pay the price for our salvation. It also makes for a works based salvation.

We believe in a personal devil, Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell (the Lake of Fire). They seek to deceive people, defeat believers, and destroy the work of God. They can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of conscious torment where unbelievers will dwell.

After heaven and earth are burned up, heaven and earth will be where the renovated earth was.

We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the Body of Christ, the true Church, and sealed with the Holy Spirit.

We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord.

We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ by way of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I just joined this CF, and I have been concerned about the Christian creed for about fifty years, so please allow me to comment on your post about CF's official Statement of Faith without reading the rest of this thread.

1. "We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God." We should note that this statement is self-contradictory. What it might say is "We believe that the original Scriptural autographs are authoritative for Christian doctrine." It would also be nice to cite some Scripture regarding this tenet.

2. "We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him." This accords with Scripture, which should be cited.

3. "The Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person." Yes, and these persons are distinguished in the Bible by the roles they play in relating to humanity. (I can explain this later and cite Scripture if requested.)

4. "We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally. They can be saved through repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (atonement) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation." This is Scriptural, which should be cited, but the spiritual status of children is not part of the creed.

5. "Those who have not heard the gospel, 'have no excuse’ before God because they have not pursued the evidence for God in creation (Rom 1:18—24a NIRV)." This is a truth regarding general revelation that includes conscience, which should indeed by included when considering God's requirement for salvation (GRFS).

6. "We believe in a personal devil, Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell (the Lake of Fire). They seek to deceive people, defeat believers, and destroy the work of God. They can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord."
Scripture does not state that belief in the Devil is part of GRFS, so this topic should not be part of the creed.

7. "We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of conscious torment where unbelievers will dwell." Desire for heaven is the biblical reason for faith in God, but it is not described in detail beyond saying that it will be eternally joyful.

8. "We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the Body of Christ, the true Church, and sealed with the Holy Spirit." Yes, all true but needing citation of Scripture.

9. "We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord." Okay, but needs elaboration and Scripture.

10. "We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ by way of the baptism of the Holy Spirit." Yes, but this needs to be clarified and certified with Scripture.

I hope my comments are acceptable and fall within the intended guidelines of the CF SOF.

 

[MisterE]

4. "We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally.

I would never agree with such a statement! There is not one scripture that states people are eternally lost because of inherited sin. You need to read my Post on Condemnations: Temporary and Eternal. We are all born in temporary condemnation, not eternal. Also, nobody is Eternally Condemned because of sins. Sins do not condemn anyone, Christ paid for the sins of all unbelievers also (read 2 Pt 2.1 or 1 John 2.2). Nobody spends one second in the Lake of Fire for committing sins. Notice that at the judgments of God, the word "sin" is never mentioned. The Judgment Seat of Christ the word sin is never mentioned (by the way, it should be translated Rewards Ceremony). It is not for punishment.

 

[Groovy]

I would never agree with such a statement! There is not one scripture that states people are eternally lost because of inherited sin. You need to read my Post on Condemnations: Temporary and Eternal. We are all born in temporary condemnation, not eternal. Also, nobody is Eternally Condemned because of sins. Sins do not condemn anyone, Christ paid for the sins of all unbelievers also (read 2 Pt 2.1 or 1 John 2.2). Nobody spends one second in the Lake of Fire for committing sins. Notice that at the judgments of God, the word "sin" is never mentioned. The Judgment Seat of Christ the word sin is never mentioned (by the way, it should be translated Rewards Ceremony). It is not for punishment.

The best statement of the Christian creed that I have been able to compile from Scripture is the following, and I would appreciate any comments y'all would have:

The kerygma/GRFS (God's requirement for salvation) should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per Matt. 7:1&5, 2Cor. 13:5-8).

A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (Eph. 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. John 17:20-23, “May they be one…”), indicating that unity regarding the Gospel is more important than accuracy regarding doctrinal details.

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept/love Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

Over...

 

[MisterE]

Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept/love Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

I don't like the Reformed/Calvinistic word "persevering" when the subject is about spiritual salvation. Eternal life is given at the very moment of faith in God's offer of salvation. It is a one time event. People can no longer worship God after placing their faith in Christ and will still be saved. Take a look at the man in first Corinthians 5. He turned his back on God and lived in sin; in other words, this one was to be turned over to Satan, but as Paul says, he is still saved although by fire. This is a clear case of "not persevering" yet still being saved because nobody can remove them from God's hand.

 

[Groovy]

I don't like the Reformed/Calvinistic word "persevering" when the subject is about spiritual salvation. Eternal life is given at the very moment of faith in God's offer of salvation. It is a one time event. People can no longer worship God after placing their faith in Christ and will still be saved. Take a look at the man in first Corinthians 5. He turned his back on God and lived in sin; in other words, this one was to be turned over to Satan, but as Paul says, he is still saved although by fire. This is a clear case of "not persevering" yet still being saved because nobody can remove them from God's hand.

Well, as a Baptist I was taught OSAS, but while we may not like learning we were wrong, we should admit that perseverance is a very biblical word and concept taught or indicated in the following sixteen passages:

Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” [This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).]

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

 

[MisterE]

Well, as a Baptist I was taught OSAS, but while we may not like learning we were wrong, we should admit that perseverance is a very biblical word and concept taught or indicated in the following sixteen passages:

Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” [This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).]

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Tell me what commentaries you are consulting to arrive at your conclusion. Salvation has three phases: Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification. Many of the passages you mention above deal with Sanctification (which has no relation to Justification. Yes, we want to persevere in our faith, but our salvation is not contingent on whether or not we can hold on long enough to make it.

Christians on the earth today are said to be seated with him in the heavenly regions. Yes, as far as God is concerned, we are in heaven already (positionally in him, known as Positional Truth, one of the greatest doctrines found in the NT).

You quoted 2 Tim 2.12, but ready the next verse. You are, for some reason, pulling passages out of context, as if you have already come to a settled conclusion that a Christian can stop being a Christian.

Rom 8
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future (nothing that happens to us or by us in the future [which means to persevere), nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation (that includes us), will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: The visible Body of Christ (The Church) is universal in nature and not specific to one denomination. It consists of all believers who have confessed Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and have been baptized.

The oldest and best NT manuscripts do not contain the second half of Chapter 16 in the Gospel of Mark. So, vs 16 is not in the inspired text. It was added later, much later. One might content that the baptism is a reference to Spiritual Baptism, the basis for Positional Truth, but I don't see that. The belief that physical baptism is required for salvation means that the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ was not sufficient to pay the price for our salvation. It also makes for a works based salvation.

Agreed... good points

 

[Groovy]

Tell me what commentaries you are consulting to arrive at your conclusion. Salvation has three phases: Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification. Many of the passages you mention above deal with Sanctification (which has no relation to Justification. Yes, we want to persevere in our faith, but our salvation is not contingent on whether or not we can hold on long enough to make it.

Christians on the earth today are said to be seated with him in the heavenly regions. Yes, as far as God is concerned, we are in heaven already (positionally in him, known as Positional Truth, one of the greatest doctrines found in the NT).

You quoted 2 Tim 2.12, but ready the next verse. You are, for some reason, pulling passages out of context, as if you have already come to a settled conclusion that a Christian can stop being a Christian.

Rom 8
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future (nothing that happens to us or by us in the future [which means to persevere), nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation (that includes us), will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mr. E, I am unable to remember everything I have learned, so I posted much of it on a website that I offer to everyone for use as a resource: <truthseekersfellowship.com>, and although I am grateful to thousands of people for what I have learned during my 75 years, most of what I post is from our website.
I agree with the three phases of salvation you cited, but we should not divorce justification from sanctification,
because not only are we supposed to "hold on" but we also are supposed to grow and become morally mature.
I also agree with the doctrine of positional grace, but again this should not negate the need for spiritual growth.
I agree that 2Timothy 2:13 says, "If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself", but that should not be interpreted as contradicting the previous verse.
So yes, many passages of Scripture indicate that a Christian can stop being a Christian, so we can see the need to harmonize them with Romans 8:38-39.

Would you like to go first?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I just joined this CF, and I have been concerned about the Christian creed for about fifty years, so please allow me to comment on your post about CF's official Statement of Faith without reading the rest of this thread.

1. "We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God." We should note that this statement is self-contradictory. What it might say is "We believe that the original Scriptural autographs are authoritative for Christian doctrine." It would also be nice to cite some Scripture regarding this tenet.

2. "We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him." This accords with Scripture, which should be cited.

3. "The Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person." Yes, and these persons are distinguished in the Bible by the roles they play in relating to humanity. (I can explain this later and cite Scripture if requested.)

4. "We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally. They can be saved through repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (atonement) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation." This is Scriptural, which should be cited, but the spiritual status of children is not part of the creed.

5. "Those who have not heard the gospel, 'have no excuse’ before God because they have not pursued the evidence for God in creation (Rom 1:18—24a NIRV)." This is a truth regarding general revelation that includes conscience, which should indeed by included when considering God's requirement for salvation (GRFS).

6. "We believe in a personal devil, Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell (the Lake of Fire). They seek to deceive people, defeat believers, and destroy the work of God. They can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord."
Scripture does not state that belief in the Devil is part of GRFS, so this topic should not be part of the creed.

7. "We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of conscious torment where unbelievers will dwell." Desire for heaven is the biblical reason for faith in God, but it is not described in detail beyond saying that it will be eternally joyful.

8. "We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the Body of Christ, the true Church, and sealed with the Holy Spirit." Yes, all true but needing citation of Scripture.

9. "We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord." Okay, but needs elaboration and Scripture.

10. "We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ by way of the baptism of the Holy Spirit." Yes, but this needs to be clarified and certified with Scripture.

I hope my comments are acceptable and fall within the intended guidelines of the CF SOF.

Greetings, and welcome to CFN. Glad you joined.

Please keep in mind that the current Statement of Faith was written many years ago, during a time when the general philosophy was "Less is more." The ToS was much smaller as well, with only a handful of rules. That has been expanded in the last year or so, and needs to be addressed again, since we had a crash that wiped out the newest version and need to augment it with the additions again.

But since we may take a fresh look at things, why would you favor using the citations so much? I can understand it, but reading over it again, in some ways I like how clean it is (just my personal opinion, mind you).

Blessings, and welcome once again. Good having you as a contributor.
Hidden In Him

 

[Hidden In Him]

I too believe that a Christian should be baptized. All I wanted to say is that baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

Actually, I agree MisterE. However, water baptism was required of new believers during New Testament times whether their salvation was dependent upon it or not. Out of curiosity, how would you word things otherwise?

 

[Groovy]

Re: The visible Body of Christ (The Church) is universal in nature and not specific to one denomination. It consists of all believers who have confessed Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and have been baptized. of

Agreed... good points

Good if referring to Spirit baptism (SB), since Paul taught that this is what unites us with the body of Christ when we accept Jesus as Lord (Rom. 8:9, 1Cor. 12:13, Acts 16:31). I am aware that some folks focus on a few places where water baptism (WB) seems to be necessary, and I was WB in a Baptist church that taught it as symbolic of saving faith/SB rather than as a sacrament for reasons I think are valid.

 

[MisterE]

Actually, I agree MisterE. However, water baptism was required of new believers during New Testament times whether their salvation was dependent upon it or not. Out of curiosity, how would you word things otherwise?

It is like an "initiation" into the body of Christ (only believers were baptized, and ONLY AFTER they were saved). That is the first thing that came to mind. Like in the OT, a ritual teaches the believer a spiritual truth.

Keep in mind 1 Cor 1:14 where Paul says, "I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius..."
If baptism was "required" for spiritual salvation, I find it hard to believe that Paul would make a statement like this. It would be tantamount to saying that Paul didn't care to complete a believer's salvation. This just does not make any theological sense to me.