Talk about the Trinity.

[Sparkey]

St. Patrick explains the Trinity.

Since this is the lounge, I'm assuming Donall and Conall are acceptable.

Where did the snakes go? They are in our walls. And if anybody tries to tear our walls down, or if anybody even so much as looks like they are gonna? WATCH OUT. Yer gonna get snake bit. But that's okay too. We are praying and we can shake vipers off into the fire. Continue in love, brothers! In agape, not just LUV!

He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him.

[Ecc 10:8 HNV] 8 He who digs a pit may fall into it; and whoever breaks through a wall may be bitten by a snake.

Continue in the Peace that passeth all understanding. Deny flesh. Deny self. Obey the King, take up your cross daily and follow after HIM who say, "I AM NOT WILLING!" (that any should perish). Fight the good fight, but know that we are to become One in Him! Let it all be done for edification and the building of our Most Holy Faith. I call upon Him for this, on His Name! And I command it, from my heart into yours!
View attachment 7297 Bedouin
Say that AMEN! It's to His agape, not mine. Just saying that we are to share salt, and to break bread -- to take that oath of eternal love and we can die for each other. Lay your hand on my center tent-post and Like any good Bedouin, I am sworn to protect you with my very life... and this bird has razor sharp talons for that... so know that I will not attack, but rather, I will become a dove. AND will calm myself and speak peace-able.

SEE:
Manners And Customs of Bible Lands by Fred H. Wight Copyright @ 1953 CHAPTER SEVEN - The Sacred Duty of Hospitality -- it's Public Domain now, friends. But I won't post it. Just hyperlink. For you. Read, please, please, please?

 

[smaller]

Here's the "shortlist" from CARM:

"Heresies

• Adoptionism - God granted Jesus powers and then adopted him as a Son.
• Albigenses - Reincarnation and two gods: one good and other evil.
• Apollinarianism - Jesus' divine will overshadowed and replaced the human.
• Arianism - Jesus was a lesser, created being.
• Docetism - Jesus was divine but only seemed to be human.
• Donatism - Validity of sacraments depends on character of the minister.
• Gnosticism - Dualism of good and bad and special knowledge for salvation.
• Kenosis - Jesus gave up some divine attributes while on earth.
• Marcionism - An evil God of the O.T., good God of the N.T. 11, books in the Canon
• Modalism - God is one person in three modes.
• Monarchianism - God is one person.
• Monophysitism - Jesus had only one nature: divine.
• Nestorianism - Jesus was two persons.
• Patripassionism - The Father suffered on the cross.
• Pelagianism - Man is unaffected by the fall and can keep all of God's laws.
• Semi-Pelagianism - Man and God cooperate to achieve man's salvation.
• Socinianism - Denial of the Trinity. Jesus is a deified man.
• Subordinationism - The Son is lesser than the Father in essence and or attributes.
• Tritheism - The Trinity is really three separate gods."

When you get good at this, you can smell them in just a sentence or 2, just like donall and conall

 

[Sparkey]

Thanks smaller

I don't know how to be any of that. I'm just a little bird. One that is so well loved tat I don't fear that big ol' puddy-tat. But I'm not trying to slander (or revile) what I don't understand in a Jude 1:10 way ether... just saying that too many times we argue because we're afraid, afraid that we don't know as well as we pretend we do. But it's okay to see through a glass, darkly. We're peaking through the mirror, a darkened mirror - and that's like looking inside to see what's outside. It works, we do have His Spirit in us. But looking through a glass, darkly, is just the way it is.

View attachment 7298​

"Aren't sparrows sold for next to nothing (five for two assarions)?
And not one of them has been forgotten by God. Why, every hair on your head has been counted!
Away with fear; you are worth more than many sparrows."​

I'm a bird. The puddy-cat is that which causes falling out between brothers and sixters, in the Body of Christ, who is the Adversary! Take care. Be blessed in your innermost parts!

And We all know that the Adversary, the devil, the Accuser of the brethren, is not Sylvester, the puddy-tat but instead is more like a LION, of the 1Peter 5:8 kind. And I'm not a tweety-bird either. I'm just sparrow. That's why we have to take great care when we speak to each other about these things which are so close to our hearts.

Way too easy to misunderstand because our "I LUV you!" (almost flippant remark sometomes, yes, the Bible is a tome) mistranslates the command to Love each other, to agape each other into more worldly speech. Have a nice day! And all that. Why which (witch) me that? It's a free wish, isn't it? As long as it's Free wish me two nice days, right? Have a nice Day-x (where x is a variable, you may write your own blank check) --> BooYah!

Ask, and ye shall receive. Pray that our understanding widens and broadens and gets deeper and deeper and better as we go with our hand in His! even as the tiny little snowball (which is us) rolls downhill, getting bigger and gathering more snow and momentum on the way!

Expand your vision! Magnify God with me. Magnify Him.

 

[smaller]

I figure if God wanted us to see Perfectly and Identically, then it would in fact take GOD to make it so.

SO, this again led me along the trails of figuring out "why not?" And, in that, I see that there are in fact "other things" going on, past and present, upon the earth. I bow to what God has going on. Nothing I can really do about it anyway. I ain't God.

 

[Brother Mike]

As far as I can find, only the KJV and NKJV support such a translation.

Jud 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Jud 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (NASB)

Jud 1:4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord--Jesus Christ--denying, (YLT)

Paul clearly implies that Jesus has always existed. The only logical conclusion then, since there is only one God, is that Paul is implying that Jesus is also God. No NT writer, including Paul, needs to say "Jesus is God," in order to get the idea across.


Monotheism is a foundational belief of Judaism because that is precisely what God revealed to them, as I have shown. Monotheism is a foundational belief in Christianity because that is precisely what God reveals to us throughout the entire Scriptures.

If God says in Scripture that he is the only God, and he clearly does, and that he knows of no other God, and he clearly does, and that there will never be another God, and clearly does, then that means there is no difference from the OT to the NT regarding this matter. If God says there will never be another and suddenly in the NT there is another, as you claim, then God is a liar.


Again, Lord God and God are one and the same, and the Bible clearly teaches that the Father is God and the Son is God, yet they are distinct.

You say there is one Saviour. Who is it?


Of course there isn't and I have done no such thing. In fact, if you go back and read what I posted, it is very clear that the doctrine of the Trinity does no such thing either.

Let's try to shorten this down to what Scriptures we don't interpret the same. For sake of everyone else. We have been through this before, others my not have.

We both Believe there is only One Lord God, None like him, None before Him. We believe there is only one Savior. We agree on this.

The Issue I have free is that there is also a Lord Jesus Christ, who Called God his Father, but is not His Father. You said in your post they are two distinct persons. I agree. At no time does Scripture combine them as ONE. Trinity does that, and calls it a Mystery.

You said you see only One God, they are both the Same, and believe Paul meant that. Problem is Free, Trinity does not even say that. Trinity says there are 3 also, and they don't become one until you add the Mystery. So there is Two (Holy Spirit added 381ad) all through scripture until the Mystery occurs.

The Father is the Savior, He crucified the His only begotten Son. That is Two Free, and it's always been Two in scripture. In fact, Trinity never said different, your saying different. They don't become ONE until the Mystery of the Christian faith kicks in.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
(Isa 53:10)

The issue I am having here Free is the fact there are always two mentioned in scriptures, and there are Two mentioned in the actual Trinity Creed. They never become just One God in Scriptures, Trinity Never used Scriptures to make them One God. The Catholic Church has already declared this Twice, in two different Encyclopedia's. Rome made the Doctrine, so they ought to know.

They only Become ONE Free in the Creed itself. It's why I am confused as to why your fighting to say there is One when Two are mentioned over and over in scripture.

That leaves me to believe, your not Trinitarian, your something else, calling it Trinitarian.
I am going by what the Creed said, what Rome publicly printed, now if you want to change their doctrine, that is your choice, but it's no longer Trinity, it's Free's Doctrine, on how Free wants to believe it.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) “The Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(Col 1:12-13)

A Father, who translated us into the Kingdom of His Son................... TWO and I have lots more.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

I find it difficult to ascertain your position, but it certainly appears you do not agree with the "mainstream" Trinity concept that many (most?) people who would self-identify as Christians hold. In the statement above, you appear to draw a stronger distinction between who Jesus is and who "God the Father" is than I believe the Bible supports. I certainly think your last statement - "There is nothing in scripture that tells you to erase Jesus, to combine them into some god system, NOTHING" is demonstrably incorrect. Perhaps later today, I can provide the relevant argument in full but for now I will summarize:

The book of Luke contains a long narrative capturing Jesus' return to Jerusalem. When that narrative is carefully studied specifically in light of an Old Testament-based promise that the God who had disappeared from the Temple would ultimately return to His people, a strong case can be made Jesus very intentionally sets out to enact that very promised return through his trip to Jerusalem. In so doing - through the powerful language of symbolic action - Jesus is saying powerfully, albeit indirectly, "I am God, returning to my people".

The Battle is not over Jesus being God. In Fact, The Holy Spirit was in Jesus, and We are also Told God is in us. It's the same concept, and we are As Jesus is, as His body on this earth.

The battle comes from the Mystery part of the Trinity Doctrine that Jesus suddenly is no Longer the Son, and God no longer the Father, but there is only ONE GOD left. Scriptures do not say that, or even hint at that.

John says it was Jesus Christ (The Son) that came in the Flesh, Not the Lord God of Israel. Trinity tries to jump hoops by saying there are 3 distinct beings, and Scripture shows that, but then Trinity turns around and says it's a Mystery that they are ONE According to the Athanasian Creed. That is the issue I have with the Doctrine.

 

[Sparkey]

Kenosis - Jesus gave up some divine attributes while on earth.

Like, "My peace I leave to you, not as man gives, give I unto you," ?? *which is sparrow paraphrase of John 14:27

Probably not. But that's what the word "Kenosis" reminded me of. :biggrin

I just know he became a little lower than the angels for us -- and that we are called to come to a place where we will judge angels. But I don't know about all them fancy-Nancy words. Well, okay. I do, but that's not from God. It's from my habit of reading dictionaries for fun, because I'm a GEEK, is why.​

 

[Brother Mike]

Here's the "shortlist" from CARM:

"Heresies

• Adoptionism - God granted Jesus powers and then adopted him as a Son.
• Albigenses - Reincarnation and two gods: one good and other evil.
• Apollinarianism - Jesus' divine will overshadowed and replaced the human.
• Arianism - Jesus was a lesser, created being.
• Docetism - Jesus was divine but only seemed to be human.
• Donatism - Validity of sacraments depends on character of the minister.
• Gnosticism - Dualism of good and bad and special knowledge for salvation.
• Kenosis - Jesus gave up some divine attributes while on earth.
• Marcionism - An evil God of the O.T., good God of the N.T. 11, books in the Canon
• Modalism - God is one person in three modes.
• Monarchianism - God is one person.
• Monophysitism - Jesus had only one nature: divine.
• Nestorianism - Jesus was two persons.
• Patripassionism - The Father suffered on the cross.
• Pelagianism - Man is unaffected by the fall and can keep all of God's laws.
• Semi-Pelagianism - Man and God cooperate to achieve man's salvation.
• Socinianism - Denial of the Trinity. Jesus is a deified man.
• Subordinationism - The Son is lesser than the Father in essence and or attributes.
• Tritheism - The Trinity is really three separate gods."

When you get good at this, you can smell them in just a sentence or 2, just like donall and conall

Certainly a whole lot of ideas out there not covered in the thread here. I wonder how many we take bits and pieces out of and believe?

 

[Sparkey]

we are As Jesus is

Unto Him was the Ruach HaKodesh poured out without measure, but read more about it in John 3:34 - pick an easy to read version if you like, like this one, it's the one I like to read (among others):

John 3:34 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
"God sent him, and he tells people what God says. God gives him the Spirit fully." (underline emphasis mine)

Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Copyright © 2006 by World Bible Translation Center​

Upon Jesus was the Holy Spirit poured out without measure, infinitely. Without limit. We have a foretaste, an earnest of our inheritance. A measure. Eph 1:14, 2Cor 1:22 -- a deposit guarantee like you put down on a house you want to buy. Hmmmm... maybe exactly like that. No, not exactly. We have already been bought. The price has already been paid. How's that for goodness and Earnest? And His Spirit is precious, beyond compare. More than worth any old pearl, but please don't hear me trying to trample your sacred secrets, Brother Mike, that's the furthest from the case. I love your pearls too, but sometimes I just gotta put my two cents in is all... if we are both toiling in the earthy soil that is our hearts? I'm a fellow farmer, is all. A ditch digger, like you.

The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Holiness (of being completely and utterly apart from all sin - for He is truly Holy, Holy, Holy) was not and is not poured out upon us like it was upon Him (meaning, not in an identical way, yet). There is still difference; we have not yet departed sin, utterly, either. There is still work to do in us. We are under construction. So while today is still called today, do all that you are given to do and seed ye Him with all your might. But also know ye this, that it is not by might, not by strength, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD. And I know you already know this. But sometimes we don't say things as well as we might, right? (it's sparrow paraphrase, if I don't cite but then, you know that too, by now, don't 'cha? Huh?)

how many we take bits and pieces out of and believe

If we are all epistles, known and read of men, and if the Word of Truth is written in the hearts of men, then we would have to be very wise to be able to surgically remove the scattered bits and pieces from all them harts (even if they were only roes or other clean means, having been cleansed by Him) -- but why even try? We have a more sure word of prophecy, do we not?

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. (ps 119:105)
Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us (luke 1:78)
2 Cor 4:6; Gen 1:3;

And the ones that I'm talking about would be the last to think I had them in mind for truly, "God makes the sun to shine on both good and evil alike" well, according to Mt 5:45, that is.

 

[smaller]

Certainly a whole lot of ideas out there not covered in the thread here. I wonder how many we take bits and pieces out of and believe?

I have no idea how it might benefit either you or free to disagree on "how" God in Christ or the Trinity "must" be, as it should be somewhat mysterious in both of your eyes. I don't think either of you are proposing polytheism, or at least free isn't.

Great religious "christian" men of extremely high intelligence stumbled themselves between the RCC and the EO over 4 little words, and multiple millions of their respective proponents, likewise..

One might think that if they are all so smart they could manage to get over themselves and move on. But no. Rather than just submitting to The Mystery, they will destroy themselves over their respectively man built God boxes. To me, these people are religious idiots of the lowest order as is anyone who damns anyone else over 4 LITTLE WORDS! You just have to be kidding me. If that is what any 'man's' religion comes down to, then woe be upon them all, at least until they see better.

 

[Free]

We both Believe there is only One Lord God, None like him, None before Him. We believe there is only one Savior. We agree on this.
.....
The Father is the Savior, He crucified the His only begotten Son.

Some interesting verses from Titus:

Tit 1:3 (and He manifested in proper times His word,) in preaching, which I was entrusted with, according to a charge of God our Saviour,
Tit 1:4 to Titus--true child according to a common faith: Grace, kindness, peace, from God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour!

Tit 2:10 not purloining, but showing all good stedfastness, that the teaching of God our Saviour they may adorn in all things.
Tit 2:11 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,
Tit 2:12 teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age,
Tit 2:13 waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

Tit 3:4 and when the kindness and the love to men of God our Saviour did appear
Tit 3:5 (not by works that are in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 which He poured upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour, (YLT)

Both parallelism and repetition are used to enforce what is being said in Scripture. It is quite fascinating then that all three chapters of Titus say "God our Saviour," and then parallel that with "Jesus Christ our Saviour."

Can you provide passages which state that the Father is the Saviour?

The Issue I have free is that there is also a Lord Jesus Christ, who Called God his Father, but is not His Father. You said in your post they are two distinct persons. I agree. At no time does Scripture combine them as ONE. Trinity does that, and calls it a Mystery.

They "combine" on the simple and clear fact from Scripture that there is only one being that is God--the Son is God and the Father is God (and the Holy Spirit is God). Yet there are three distinct persons within that one being that is God. I find that to be quite the mystery.

That is Two Free, and it's always been Two in scripture. In fact, Trinity never said different, your saying different. They don't become ONE until the Mystery of the Christian faith kicks in.
....
The issue I am having here Free is the fact there are always two mentioned in scriptures, and there are Two mentioned in the actual Trinity Creed. They never become just One God in Scriptures, Trinity Never used Scriptures to make them One God.

They only Become ONE Free in the Creed itself. It's why I am confused as to why your fighting to say there is One when Two are mentioned over and over in scripture.

You keep saying "two" but two what? There was, is, and always will be one God, as I have clearly and adequately shown with Scripture. Anyone who disagrees that there is only one God has an issue with Scripture, not my interpretation of it.

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(Col 1:12-13)

This in no way disagrees with the Trinity.

A Father, who translated us into the Kingdom of His Son................... TWO and I have lots more.

I don't doubt that you have lots more but the important question here is: Two what?

 

[Drew]

The battle comes from the Mystery part of the Trinity Doctrine that Jesus suddenly is no Longer the Son, and God no longer the Father....

I agree but I believe the "mainstream" expression of the doctrine of the Trinity does not entail this part of what you have posted.

 

[Sparkey]

Okay, every single contributor here:
Not_Now.Soon Blake WIP Brother Mike Free reba (too, thanks for moving - that's work, I know) antipasta JLB smaller Drew

Each one! Has contributed bits and pieces of their understandings, has "WORKED" in this thread. None excluded. We've all contribute our work to this. Let us now guard our work. So that this does not fall to the wayside and become the typical knock-down, drag-out battle that happens all too often, not only here but in every Christian circle where the subject comes up.

Let us, here and now, call to our King of Peace and ask for His 'amen' as we again commit to keeping our peace, when it's time to keep our peace, to gathering stones when it time (not now) and to ...

What was that song? Beach boys, right? No. Not Beach boys... how could a sparrow be so dense?!?

THE BYRDS! Gotta love 'em, right?

Paul asked, "For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and joy." (1 Thess 2:19) Rather than being some kind of "Lone Ranger," Paul always (sometimes) worked together with other Christians, indeed with more and more of his God-given associates as time went on. And he was not only welcoming, his ministry was the very model of evangelism. Remember how he was all slick with the Romans and talked to them about the One True God under the guise of explaining the "Forgotten God" of their polytheism? He wasn't about correctin' or sweating the small stuff -- he wanted to tell the gospel and deliver the pure milk of the Word of Truth undiluted by him! Yea! He wanted to prophecy and speak out the Word as it bubbled up from his inner party - oops, from his belly, his inner parts.

We are crowns, I am yours and you are mine and the banner over us is LOVE! And we get to toss our crowns at our Savior's feet. I'm hoping that I'll be tossed because I owe each one of youse guys a debt greater than I may repay. I ask God, from the depths of my heart, to repay my debt to youse guys!

Yeah, you're "youse guys" to me. Like "wise guys" of old, it's a northeast phrase (often used by jersey girls and long islanders, but they don't mean it the old way, like I'm using it) meaning you guys. But it means more than that. It means family. Like Mafia (kind of). It means friends to die for. My Jesus died for you and that's the Spirit we are called by. That's the mind being formed in us. Our agape love mind. Let that catch fire in your heart! I dare you! I double-down (vegas) double dog-dare you. Or in other (more familiar) words, "Taste and see that the Lord is Good."

But just don't stop there, is what I say. Just don't stop.

 

[Free]

I have no idea how it might benefit either you or free to disagree on "how" God in Christ or the Trinity "must" be, as it should be somewhat mysterious in both of your eyes. I don't think either of you are proposing polytheism, or at least free isn't.

Great religious "christian" men of extremely high intelligence stumbled themselves between the RCC and the EO over 4 little words, and multiple millions of their respective proponents, likewise..

One might think that if they are all so smart they could manage to get over themselves and move on. But no. Rather than just submitting to The Mystery, they will destroy themselves over their respectively man built God boxes. To me, these people are religious idiots of the lowest order as is anyone who damns anyone else over 4 LITTLE WORDS! You just have to be kidding me. If that is what any 'man's' religion comes down to, then woe be upon them all, at least until they see better.

The Trinity is a mystery. Those three foundations I gave earlier the Bible makes clear. We cannot say more than that, at least not much more. Much of the disagreements between trinitarians are about the inner workings of the Trinity and how three persons can be one being. That I refuse to go into and instead leave as mystery. I am trying to keep it as simple as I can based on what the Bible reveals.

The main issue here is that we cannot make Jesus out to be something or someone that he is not.

 

[smaller]

The Trinity is a mystery. Those three foundations I gave earlier the Bible makes clear. We cannot say more than that, at least not much more. Much of the disagreements between trinitarians are about the inner workings of the Trinity and how three persons can be one being. That I refuse to go into and instead leave as mystery. I am trying to keep it as simple as I can based on what the Bible reveals.

The main issue here is that we cannot make Jesus out to be something or someone that he is not.

The "orthodox" understanding is helpful when assessing alternative proposals, which, under Mystery, aren't entirely solvable anyway.

Very early after salvation I was working in another city, away from home, and sought fellowship with charismatics, as they were my "base" folk, and ran into a Oneness Pentacostal sect i.e. attended a service. The pastor took me to his house afterwards and spent an inordinate amount of time on the Jesus Only doctrine they have. It was my first glimpse into the eyes of damnation over this issue, and it was revolting to me.

 

[Drew]

.....What was that song? Beach boys, right? No. Not Beach boys... how could a sparrow be so dense?!?......

You have a very interesting way of expressing yourself - you remind me of someone I grew up with. Your first name is not, perchance, Eric, and you are not of Scandinavian extraction are you? .

 

[Sparkey]

You are a cold and refreshing glass of water (to me) especially as I drink from the oasis that is you, in the Presence of the Lord. And I call Him to bless me through you, I support you in prayer, my prayer to the Most High God, even as I read. You are like a refreshing glass, a tall, refreshing glass of water and I am a water offering, in a parched place, being poured out, even now, before your eyes. It's what I love from the moment that I understood what a desert water offering was...

"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. "And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."(Mt 10:42)​

So no, I'm not a prophet dude or dudette, but if God made me to become one? I would not hesitate, because that just means that I can purr out His word with greater authority, from that Prophetic Place -- but I am not this, and no, I am not Eric the Scandinavian, but I Do hear the truth that we are to agape each other even as HE does. We are to be Jesus to each ohter. I am to be Christ to you (to say it more literal like) and you to me, for Christ (the Spirit Holy) testifies to us of Him, of Himself, even when this is found in each other. So you get the witness in your spirit that I too am like you.

amen!

 

[Drew]

The Trinity is a mystery....

I certainly agree. One thing, though, I think can be Biblically established without having to deal with the rather obvious conceptual challenges of the notion of the Trinity. And that is that Jesus, at least in some senses, should be understood as being "God": as participating in, being part of, or belonging to, the "object" (I know this seems flippant, but that is not my intent) we attach the label "God" to.

 

[Sparkey]

Make no mistake. Jesus came in the FLESH and was man. He was born of the Spirit and that's a mystery because that birthing process is not yet completed in us, the adopted, yet. And we are Children of the Promise, because it is by FAITH (by God-Trust) that we are saved.

Right after his water baptism God baptized that man in the Spirit Holy! And that's when John (whom we also know as the spirit of Elijah himself, the friend of the bridegroom) saw that Dove... and others saw and heard and ... and... behold(!) (look at this, BEHOLD!) a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."


And that's not the only time that the Voice from Heaven Himself spoke in the hearing of men, but not all could hear, for some were not yet ready...

But we do have the testimony and that word is true, and we also have our own testimony, that even though we have never seen Him, never heard His voice nor felt His touch, he is HERE right now, among us.

Now that's the good news right there. Or, in other word, and like you see flashing in NEON above homeless shelters everywhere:

JESUS SAVES​

You have heard that in the end times it shall be as a woman in travail? Like a baby being born? Like the pangs are getting more frequent and also greater in intensity? Know this, know it well. I'm here to tell you that same thing that the apostles said, nothing new: The dawning of a new day is upon us. As that morning light is seen, getting brighter and brighter in each of us and as we learn to yield more and more to Him? So also will that birthing get us closer to that time, spoken of from the beginning for truly that blessing was given to the seed of the woman, in deed! And God knows the plans that He has made. Even the plans that He made for you! Read about that as it came through the Prophet, Jeremiah, if you wanna.... you know how to find it. I know you. I know you do.


Just hover your mouse over this: Jeremiah 29:11-13 The BibleTag Ref will work for you. *Poof* like magic, which is what they (worldly people say) when we talk about the work that the Holy Spirit is given to do in us. He's here to join us together, and I'm here to suggest that we begin cooperating more and more with Him, in all things so that the very mind of Christ is seen by all as being formed even right now, by God, in us, for all to see.

GLORY to G-d (right)
O! Magnify the Lord, O my soul.

Or as I lvoe to sing (yes, I lvoe -- > it's bettter than LUV)

Heart o' mine? I command you!
Heart o' mine? I am Captain and Commander, listen to this, my song!
Heart o' mine? I command you:

Love Him. Love Him with all you got! And get Him with all your getting.
Be Zealous, like as if you were the very temple of God Himself....

And heart o' mine? I command you.
Not for you, do this. Not for me.
Do this for ye, for thee... for all who come in the Name

Heart O' mine?
This is your Commander. The one that has been given all authority.
To command you for you are mine and mine alone...
Given by Him, to me. Heart o' mine?
WE command you!
Both He and me...
. Love others like He does. Not just like you love you. Like HIM.
For He alone is your God, not me.

Now be silent.
Wait.
Listen
Hear what He say by His Spirit
Listen, then speak. Shush now, child. Be still.​

 

[Brother Mike]

Some interesting verses from Titus:

Tit 1:3 (and He manifested in proper times His word,) in preaching, which I was entrusted with, according to a charge of God our Saviour,
Tit 1:4 to Titus--true child according to a common faith: Grace, kindness, peace, from God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour!

Tit 2:10 not purloining, but showing all good stedfastness, that the teaching of God our Saviour they may adorn in all things.
Tit 2:11 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,
Tit 2:12 teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age,
Tit 2:13 waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

Tit 3:4 and when the kindness and the love to men of God our Saviour did appear
Tit 3:5 (not by works that are in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 which He poured upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour, (YLT)

Both parallelism and repetition are used to enforce what is being said in Scripture. It is quite fascinating then that all three chapters of Titus say "God our Saviour," and then parallel that with "Jesus Christ our Saviour."

Can you provide passages which state that the Father is the Saviour?

You just provided some, and I gave you the One It pleased the Father to crucify the Son. It was God that Loved the World, and He gave his son, OUR SAVIOR, which backs up the scriptures you posted.

I don't understand the point, unless you somehow think God our savior is the Lord Jesus Christ in some strange way. If that is the case, then that is Modalism, as the Father is the First Person in the Godhead by whom all things consist, Jesus the 2nd person in the Godhead by whom all things are in.

I really don't think you know your own doctrine very well Free, and that is what makes it hard to discuss this. They never become ONE until the Mystery part.

And two, means there is a Father and Son, mentioned in 52 different scriptures the Father is always called God.
John Called Jesus God once, saying the true God
Thomas did Once saying, My God
And God the Father Himself called His son God.

It's almost like you learned your Trinity Doctrine somewhere else outside of the Roman Catholic Church. It appears they taught you wrong, just like most Western Churchs who take part of someone else work, Copy cat it, and add what they want.

There is NO ONE GOD until you Add the Mystery Part Free, It's not in scripture. Tell me what you believe, we will talk about that. It's not Trinity though.

Mike.