Talk about the Trinity.

[Brother Mike]

I agree but I believe the "mainstream" expression of the doctrine of the Trinity does not entail this part of what you have posted.

I understand, but the Mainstream does, it's the Western Culture who have their own versions of the Trinity Doctrine as they Stole it from Rome and twisted it. I am Quoting the Mainstream Work of the Athanasian Creed and it's presentation of 1600's. If there is another one like it, it's a forgery, and a shame to steal something from Rome.

And Free is going back and forth on something he claims is a Mystery, which don't make a whole lot of sense. Trinity has always kept the Father and Son separate, Two God's. It's not in scripture, anywhere there is ONE, Rome already told us that.

It's faith in the Creed itself that they use as the Authority to prove Trinity. It's in their Encyclopedia's, and Writings.

The Original Trinity Doctrine did not come to the conclusion of One God. It came to the conclusion that Jesus is just as much God as His Father.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

Okay, every single contributor here:
Not_Now.Soon Blake WIP Brother Mike Free reba (too, thanks for moving - that's work, I know) antipasta JLB smaller Drew

Each one! Has contributed bits and pieces of their understandings, has "WORKED" in this thread. None excluded. We've all contribute our work to this. Let us now guard our work. So that this does not fall to the wayside and become the typical knock-down, drag-out battle that happens all too often, not only here but in every Christian circle where the subject comes up.

Let us, here and now, call to our King of Peace and ask for His 'amen' as we again commit to keeping our peace, when it's time to keep our peace, to gathering stones when it time (not now) and to ...

What was that song? Beach boys, right? No. Not Beach boys... how could a sparrow be so dense?!?

THE BYRDS! Gotta love 'em, right?

Paul asked, "For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and joy." (1 Thess 2:19) Rather than being some kind of "Lone Ranger," Paul always (sometimes) worked together with other Christians, indeed with more and more of his God-given associates as time went on. And he was not only welcoming, his ministry was the very model of evangelism. Remember how he was all slick with the Romans and talked to them about the One True God under the guise of explaining the "Forgotten God" of their polytheism? He wasn't about correctin' or sweating the small stuff -- he wanted to tell the gospel and deliver the pure milk of the Word of Truth undiluted by him! Yea! He wanted to prophecy and speak out the Word as it bubbled up from his inner party - oops, from his belly, his inner parts.

We are crowns, I am yours and you are mine and the banner over us is LOVE! And we get to toss our crowns at our Savior's feet. I'm hoping that I'll be tossed because I owe each one of youse guys a debt greater than I may repay. I ask God, from the depths of my heart, to repay my debt to youse guys!

Free and I have done this Battle before years ago, and again, and again. I am not making Headway, Now Free says it's a Mystery, so That is right, but you can't talk about what's a Mystery.

Letting everyone contribute their thoughts is important and though I like to battle, I think it might be more important everyone get a chance to share and feel safe sharing.

I made my stance, I am not Willing to Lump Jesus into being some part of a god system, which is what Oneness does, but Just reverses the Order of 1 is 3, Not 3 is 1. The math comes to the same conclusion.

To Me, Jesus is Lord of Lords, Did an impossible thing coming to the Earth and having to save us in a flesh Body, Trust in the Father, Spoke only what he heard, and was Obedient until Death, being tempted in all ways, but without sin.

The creator can't be tempted, the Father is in a Class of His own. Trinty States that, as the Father is the 1st Person in the Godhead, but despite Trinity's efforts to keep both separate, I don't buy into the mystery.

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

Free and I have done this Battle before years ago

Are you surprised to hear that when I was co-Mod with Free in the now closed Christianity and Science forum, I used to read every single word he typed without exception? I used to co-Mod the A&T forum too, so I read every single word you posted there too, and because I fell in agape with you at first sight, Brother Mike I read your ever (EDIT: there's my signature typo again, I meant 'every') post. There is no need to remind me of your ongoing conversation or, as you say, your Battle. You're both Christ to me! Bang. Take that to the bank.

I don't think you understand the job of Mod. But I wish I could take you and others up to the Moderator Only Forum and show ya. They are all sweeties, every single one. No exceptions. Just some are more sweet than others, right AirDancer -- I agape you too! *winky-wink*

Quick Question (that you'll never guess)
What forum has more posts in it (historically and statistically) than any other here on Christian Forums ?? Answer: It's the Mod forum -- you know, the one where if you push the REPORT button, your complaint (and I'm not talking to you, Brother Mike, because I know you've never even once pressed that button, because to you, that's like talking behind the back of others) but your complaint goes to the Mod Only Forum and my point is that Mods discuss Members and their problems more than any single other forum in the whole place, hands down! There is no contest. No, I do not feel that good when I see the heatbreaks you embrace, you can take things in your stride that would break any normal man, but I tell this to Jesus too, but I do wish that for just one time, you could stand inside my shoes and me in yours. But then? I know that I would run away (maybe screaming?) not having rightly been prepared to see so clearly what you know so well...


Just like my fingers don't do everything well and sometimes I type (typo) things because my fingers do the walking and the talking and I type too fastedly ... so also do we, as we strive to speak the Truth in Kindness, mess up sometimes. We are the typo's of God. But we're not trying to twist things. Stuff happens. God knows. I thimk (that one was on porpoise) He smiles too or maybe they're neither, yeah. That's the ticket. They are neither but we can smile at them. In that way, typo's are similes and not smiles. And we're okay with that and so is Our Father in Heaven. He does understand. But in truth, not like we do, which is a crude and oftentimes rude approximation, dag-nab-it!

And here is the mystery (which is just a puzzle to be figured out, not outside of our reach) because when I'm talking about ye and moo? I'm talking about the unfolding revelation of God even in us, even as we speak, through the Holy Spirit whose job it is to reveal Christ. WE get to see him in us, as He ministers to me through you and the other way around.

Be still my heart. We are talking love and LUV and lvoe and most of all His agape for us. We get it done! As we yield to Him and continue to walk with our hands in his, but if I were to take my hand out of His hand to smack you in the face with a yummy fish? And then if I were to take every loaf of bread that the Mana from Heaven gave me? What then? Could it be that He would bless it and offer thanks and then feed 5,000? Okay, if He wants to, but all I wanted to do was smack you with a fish, my fish to your face. And if he thinks I'm that little boy offering all my food to you? WHO am I to argue? Huh?

 

[reba]

Brother Mike , The sites statement of belief is
We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Stating your contrary view is acceptable... pushing it is not. You are pushing it... Admin Reba

 

[Sparkey]

I didn't like reba's post because I like to see ppl get in trouble, not at all.
But it's the consistency of administration that I like. For instance, I really doubt that I'll get in trouble for saying that the very Nature of God is a mystery being revealed and nobody knows God as they will (if they continue) because I don't know Him any better than anybody else; the right (proper?) ways to say this concept is 'He knows me', not 'I knows Him' (which is bragging or a form of it, and it's false to (I meant to say too); no man knows God or can search him out, none save Jesus, and it is He who reveals the Father to us, without Him, without that man who became lower than angels for us, we'd be totally clueless and confused or worse, doomed as doomed can be *to quote Martin Short, as Ed Grimly from Sabbath Day live (or was that Saturday Night Live??) -- and we are to give ALL glory to God, right) ... But I'll tell the little legal eagle to shut up so you don't have to think of how to say it politely. It's okay.

But I can talk "trinity" all day because to me the mystery behind this concept is a code word for our growth in Him and being/knowing more and more of Who He is, of the ongoing, but as yet uncompleted, process; I just don't know how to segregate according to that belief.

It's not universal for me, meaning that this message isn't for everyone, not one bit. But it is truth enough for the bird, which is yet another code for my reference to the child-like God-trust (code for faith) given to me. And we get to do this together, as you work in me and me in you, but we know that if any work endures, it's not ours. We are just laborers in the field, our brother's fields? Yes, sometimes, for I am dark (swarthy) but lovely as are you. Or if you'd rather, as we are becoming... because I stand here in full out command, binding in power (what ye bind, is bound, bind on earth? Is bound in heaven!) and I stand in this each and ever moment that I type here. Binding you to the truth and the truth to you. Amen? Do thee this for me, too, please. And I promise that I won't go tattling to mommy like the two kids in the back seat in that commercial, "She's touching me, she's touching me..." All whom are of Him may touch my heart, I am touched by you. Every time. The silence of tongues, it is building! It will burst, we shall speak as one! To quote a new friend here, "Can you say me it?"

But can I worship in an assembly with others who are 100% Catholic, or Jehovah's Witness, or Mormons or Hindu or even a disturbed (did I mean distributed?) mix or whole mess of 'em? Yes, I may and can but just haven't yet, not all but some of those assemblies I have, yes. So then, if I can worship God from my heart, even if I am in a desolate place like the Arizona Desert? Then I may worship with all who come in the Name of Jesus, for they are blessed and I am learning to call blessed and happy in the innermost parts all whom come in blessed are all who the Name of the Lord! (Psalm 118:26)

But I ain't none of them "-ist" or "-ism" people that were posted previously by smaller. Me? I'm just a bird-brained fanatic but I prefer to be called a part of a peculiar people over bird-brained but it means about the same thing and I prefer zealot over fanatic, but then again, it's no big deal to me beause I am of God's own, who chases after His heart with all his strength, with every thought, word or deed, or that is who I want to be, anyway... one who loves God unabashedly, just like you. And I'm one salty ol' cracker, but shhhh... don't quote me out of context. I hate it when that happens *unless you throw in swear words and attribute them to me, then that's okay. I get that. No biggie there. That just means that you've read my uncopyright statement which I freely ripped off from other writers, greater than me, which is kind-of the point of the whole thing.

Spoiler: Sparrow's uncopyright Statement

All of my writings here are uncopyrighted (since June 2009).

That means I’ve put them in the public domain, and released my copyright on all these works.

There is no need to email me for permission — use my content however you want! Email it, share it, reprint it with or without credit. Change it around, put in a bunch of swear words and attribute them to me. It’s OK.

Attribution is appreciated but not required.


Why I’m releasing copyright
I’m not a big fan of copyright laws, especially as they’re being applied by corporations, used to crack down on the little guys so they can continue their large profits.

Copyrights are often said to protect the artist, but in most cases the artist gets very little while the corporations make most of the money. In the 4+ years I’ve done this experiment, releasing copyright has not hurt me, the creator of the content, a single bit.

I think, in most cases, the protectionism that is touted by “anti-piracy” campaigns and lawsuits and lobbying actually hurts the artist. Limiting distribution to protect profits isn’t a good thing.

The lack of copyright, and blatant copying by other artists and even businesses, never hurt Leonardo da Vinci when it comes to images such as the Mona Lisa, the Last Supper, or the Vitruvian Man. It’s never hurt Shakespeare. I doubt that it’s ever really hurt any artist (although I might just be ignorant here).

And while I’m certainly not da Vinci or Shakespeare, copyright hasn’t helped me, and uncopyright hasn’t hurt me. If someone feels like sharing my content on their blog, or in any other form for that matter, that’s a good thing for me (by my way of reckoning). If someone wanted to share my posts with 100 friends, I don’t see how that hurts me. My work is being spread to many more people than I could do myself. That’s something to celebrate, as I see it.

And if someone wants to take my work and improve upon it, as artists have been doing for centuries, I think that’s a wonderful thing. If they can take my favorite posts and make something funny or inspiring or thought-provoking or even sad … I say more power to them. The creative community only benefits from derivations and inspirations.

This isn’t a new concept, of course, and I’m freely ripping ideas off here. Which is kinda the point.

Counter arguments
There are a number of objects that will likely be brought up to this idea, and here are a few of my responses:

1. Google rank will go down. My understanding is that Google penalizes pages that have exact duplicates on other sites, when it comes to PageRank.

2. You’ll lose revenues. If people start to buy my writings and then distribute it to 20 people, and each of those distributes it to 20 more, and those to 20 more … I’ve lost a total of $0 in expected revenues. Perhaps. In this example, hundreds of people might be reading my work who wouldn’t have otherwise. That’s good for any content creator.

3. Who knows what people will do with your work? Someone could take my work, turn it into a piece of garbage, and put my name on it. They could translate it with all kinds of errors. They could … well, they could do just about anything. But that kind of thinking stems from a mind that wants to control content … while I am of the opinion that you can’t control it, and even if you can, it’s not a good thing. What if someone takes my work and turns it into something brilliant, and becomes the next major contributor to the world of ideas? Or more likely, what if they take the work and extend the concepts and make it even more useful, to even more people? Release control, and see what happens. People are wonderful, creative creatures. Let’s see what they can do.

4. What if someone publishes a book with all the content and makes a million dollars off it? I hope they at least give me credit. And my desire is that they give some of that money to a good cause. I also hope they didn't put in too many swear words, I don't think I'd like that, but I wouldn't object too harshly and certainly wouldn't sue them over it. After all, I've witness regrettable things coming from my mouth.

5. But … they’re stealing from you! You can’t steal what is given freely. I call this sharing, not piracy.

 

[Sparkey]

It's just dirt.
Dirt on the half-shell.
Swallow it down.

Don't ask for the sake of consciousness, it is offered in sweet and kind agape, or I'll give you antoher word for it too, because I am soooo good with words (and I can count that as dung too, like Moses, counting the riches of Egypt), but if you're offering me diamonds and rust? I've already got screen-filter installed, as you do... so no worries, it's called discernment of spirits, and that too is a gift but if you think I'm trying to say you don't have what I have? Then you do not have the same gift because I never said that and I'll deny it to the day I die, I never said that and I'll deny it, unless and of course, you throw in a bunch of swear words and attribute them to me, then I'll just *wink* knowingly and go my way... it's all okay to me, you have my permission, now don't 'cha? We have HIS PERMISSION to speak our hearts about Him too, we do, and who can stop us? None may. Just try to stop a person recently engaged, in the full blush of their first love... try to get them to shut up about their fiance, right? Ain't gonna happen... And, I'll snatch the diamonds from your hand and leave the rust, seemingly without skipping a beat, but it will all be happening in me, just unseen, just like it is in you, even now... it's all good to me. I love you too much, it breaks me. Again, and again, and again am I broken but that isn't me. It's His spirit in me, broken again and again because of me and my sin and I'm getting to a place that I've read about, where I detest sin, but not because I get hurt, but because it hurts and herts our hearts and that itself hurts Him.

So here I am, a puddle of typo's and I don't know what or who I is anymore, but that's fine too, not like I haven't been here before, now is it?

"Can you say me it?" I adked a post ago, right? O I can. I can say you it:
Here you go:

Godspeed. Each and every one.

Spoiler: Birdies LIKE spoilers, right?

I wish you Godspeed, because I too am commanded by your KING, the King of all the earth. And to us? "Godspeed" is yet another code, and coming from me? A literal flavor of Christian, that's code for loving others as self. May God bless and keep you always, may He make his face to shine upon you, may you climb up and down ladders to the stars, may your Grabber become God-Fighter, or He-Who-Prevailed-With EL, or G-d, as the case may be. AND may you grow and grow and grow up... Grow to be righteous, and true and stand upright and be strong and be stayed on the very Breath of the Lord for always... in Him and of Him and for Him and yes, also for me, because I need you. Me is a very needy kind. I need every one, every single one, as given to me by God. Needy birdie is me. Keep your hands busy in Him, so that your foundation is always strong even when the winds shift. Stay your heart on Him! Can you say me it? Stay you and me, ye and moo, on Him. Keep me like you were and are and have been called to be your brother's keeper for we are not of Cain but of Able of the PROMISE, but if we are Cain? Then I am a brother, born for the day of adversity, and the shortness of bread, I am b-b-born for it even though I used to stutter; I am that one who will pound on the door in the middle of the night and won't go away until we have been given water... the importuner

 

[Brother Mike]

If a member disagrees with a Moderator's action, they are not to take their dispute public. (see 1.3) signed , Admin Reba

 

[JLB]

unless you somehow think God our savior is the Lord Jesus Christ in some strange way

The Lord Jesus Christ is God our Savior, not in some strange way but in truth.

The Word became flesh, not the Father.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

I have more, but this is a good start.

Jesus is YHWH.

THE Lord God Almighty.

Not God the Father, but the Lord God, Son of God the Father.


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

You have a very interesting way of expressing yourself - you remind me of someone I grew up with.

Thank you, Drew. I've heard that a couple times before.... it's a clue for me to shut my beak, sometimes and I could say 'normally' but not here and not from you... From you, I just accept as if you were here in my head speaking with me. You are of Him whom we all love, I can tell. Stay that way. Grow. It's what we do. And if you criticize? I try to remember all the times I criticized myself in my own inimitable and jocular manner. Jocularity. Mash. Catch 22, but don't go there, Sparrow. You'll lose your audience. You're criticizing again, aren't you? *wink* Yes, that's true, Hawkeye, or should I call you Captain Benjamin Franklin "Hawkeye" Pierce?


The word soliloquy is derived from Latin word “solo” which means “to himself” and “loquor” meaning “I speak”, respectively. But I don't really even do that. Not really.

I am a creative writer (have been published more than once, but never paid cash for it and not gonna seek that either, well, probably not, that is) and have been for most of my life. Some have told me that I have that talent, like a God given talent. I'm not so sure about that. Because it sounds to me like they maybe are confused between talents that were given while we are being knitted in wth womb, which are in that way, God given for sure, but that's not the same as those talents that are given by the Holy Spirit after we are born-again like the ones that I think Jesus meant (in part) when he spoke the parable of the man with talents (but he was literally speaking of talents of silver too maybe?) Or talents that could be invested in a bank in any case, but don't think that I pretend He doesn't know His audience, as the HS revealed and reveals, because He said, "I have another flock" and I can sometimes hear him as if he is speaking directly to me as part of that "other flock", because He asked for us in a Psalms 2 way, or that's what I think, for what that's worth, that is.

I don't think that the man, The Christ, was omniscient. That would have been an impossible burden. If he knew the every thought of his mother, when He was growing up? How could He, in good conscious, say that He Honored and Obeyed her? He would not be fit for doing His Father's work at 12, because he would be omniscient and know his mom's every thought. The burden of obedience would have been impossible for one such as that. Honor your Father and your mother? Now there would be two he had to obey, and both flesh also, and both sinners and evil, because he said, "None is Good, save God." SO he knows that we are evil. I therefore conclude that he was flesh. Like us, tested in every way, same as us.

But I don't speak to myself. I'm familiar with the term (kind of --it's an ancient literary device) and what it refers to and what I have developed a knack for isn't really speaking to myself. I'm speaking out from that which bubbles up inside of me, unfiltered. Speaking the Word of truth, with the understanding that I'm trying to serve my Master, who is a Master Fisherman. I'm just part of the net. Not a big part either.

 

[Brother Mike]

The Lord Jesus Christ is God our Savior, not in some strange way but in truth.

The Word became flesh, not the Father.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

I have more, but this is a good start.

Jesus is YHWH.

THE Lord God Almighty.

Not God the Father, but the Lord God, Son of God the Father.


JLB

I am bailing out of the thread, Sorry.

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

Mike, sorry to see you go, but I do understand. It's very difficult to speak on such things, even when you are speaking under what you know of as the anointing. But we are all told to chase after spiritual (things). To run them down. That's Paul's prefatory statement at the very start of his first written address (normally called 1 Corinthians, chapter 14 and verse 1 <=== click it and see... but I don't think he named that epistle (letter) that either. Would you? 1Cor? ORLY? As in, "This is the thirteen upteenth time I've written you, and not the thirteen upteenth minus -1. ?!? --what? Huh? What? -- you've lost me right there. 1st letter to those in Corinth indeed. Speak English, man! Why don't you?

Jim, I'm giving it all she's got...

Okay, Scotty, beam me up! I'm outta here.

But, "I'll be back," saith the bird in his best imitation of the ex-governor Arnold "The-Black-or-Dark Mountain-Range-or-Ploughman maybe?" (( I know that on the Tonight Show several years ago when Johnny was still in charge, Schwarzenegger said that his name means "black plow man". And he has repeated that explanation in several other interviews but that's a stranger translation of part of his name, the 'egg' part, meaning farmer. Egge isn't a plough but a harrow. Think about all the BERGER names from place-names ending in -berg, and the -BURGER names from place-names ending in -burg, and so on.)) It's not me, it's not English either. <--- well, that's what Arnold said his name, 'Schwarzenegger', means, or maybe it's just what I thimk I heard he said, for whatever that's worth.

 

[Sinthesis]

Athanasian Creed - English translation

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

This is Schaff's emendation of the Book of Common Prayer translation. See Schaff (1877b, pp. 66–71)

 

[Sparkey]

This is Schaff's emendation of the Book of Common Prayer translation. See Schaff (1877b, pp. 66–71)

Mr. Google just told me:

In the year 1644, Gerard Voss, in his "De Tribus Symbolis", gave weighty probability to the opinion that St. Athanasius was not its author. His reasons may be reduced to the two following:

• firstly, no early writer of authority speaks of it as the work of this doctor; and
• secondly, its language and structure point to a Western, rather than to an Alexandrian, origin.

Most modern scholars agree in admitting the strength of these reasons, and hence this view is the one generally received today.

I highlighted the term "Athanasian Creed - English translation" then R-Click - Search Google for [insert highlighted term here]
View attachment 7309

Then I picked the 2nd one down and read that. Seemed reasonable to me. All I wanted was a quick-quote for something I've not properly heard of before. Nothing more. It sounded like Anglicanism to me. Hmmm.... how to say this better? You know music, yes? You've heard Stephen Foster tunes even if you don't know it.
See also: http://songwritershalloffame.org/songs/detailed/C10

He was a composer in the 19th century and he was and is very very famous. So there are lots of his songs that i could quote and you'd be able to sing along or at least hum along with me. Ubiquitous, is the term, if I make the vocab guess right.

So too are many of the words and phrases that are found in "The Book of Common Prayer" also found in common English parlance. They are just part of our language and heritage if you are free and white and your ancestors were in North America in the early days when your country was young. But if you were not free then? Or even if you were in Western Europe? Then in all likelyhood, Stephen Foster songs were also part of your heritage, but not a very complete part. Yours was richer if you were non-white or if you were abroad. Trust me, I did a paper on that very thing and my professor, Dr. Natalie graded it as A+ and she gave me an A in the overall course even without me taking the final... but that's beside the point.

The point is that much of what was found in the time of the Reformers has worked its way completely into our history and heritage and culture. That's the point. And it's also possible (maybe even likely) that the old title is not accurate.

Again, according to Mr. Google, quick search alone:
Quicunque Vult (also Quicumque Vult), is a Christian statement of belief focused on Trinitarian doctrine and Christology. The Latin name of the creed, Quicunque vult, is taken from the opening words, "Whosoever wishes". The creed has been used by Christian churches since the sixth century."
View attachment 7310​

Take note of the 2nd part: 'Christology'. It's very difficult to get it pure. Too difficult for me, anyway. It's possible that we (who are closer to the end because each day that passes brings us closer to the end, that's why) are also to be given more and more knowledge even if we don't talk funny like they used to way back then. Knowledge is being poured out upon the whole earth. We live in a very special time. I kinda-like the ToS and SoF version we have here. Simple. Not pretentious. Easy to follow. Maybe not the fullest revelation of the nature of God possible, but then, it does NOT try to be.

Spoiler: Statement of Faith for our FORUM

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

We believe that all humanity is lost and born with a sinful nature, and can only be saved by a personal faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any human merit or performance.

We believe in a personal devil, called Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will be punished.

We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ.

We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord.

We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Quick test/check of our ToS knowledge: What is rule 2.11 of the ToS?
Extra Credit: Why is it sparrow's favorite?

Warning: Nested Spoiler ahead! ​

Spoiler: ToS Rule 2.11 Spoiker

ToS rule #2.11: Do not post nonsense words and claim to be speaking in tongues.

Spoiler: ToS Rule 2.11 Spoiker

Question: Why is it sparrow's favorite?
Answer: It's obvious, isn't it?

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DISCLAIMER:
Your results may vary. Mr. Google is getting too intuitive for his britches these days, and I get cookies without my express permission, so your search results may vary even if you do use Chrome and Mr. Google like I just did.[/spoiler]

 

[Free]

I don't understand the point, unless you somehow think God our savior is the Lord Jesus Christ in some strange way.

Why would that be strange when the text strongly suggests that?

If that is the case, then that is Modalism,

Not necessarily. It simply would show that Jesus is God, which is consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity. You said that Paul never said Jesus is God but here he strongly implies it, as he does many times in his writings.

I really don't think you know your own doctrine very well Free, and that is what makes it hard to discuss this.

On the contrary, I know it well enough whereas you have contradicted yourself quite significantly which is perhaps why you won't answer my questions. Not to mention you continually compare Oneness and Modalism with the Trinity as though they are the same.

They never become ONE until the Mystery part.

As I have repeatedly stated, they are one because the Bible shows they are all fully God, yet distinct persons, and that there was, is, and ever will be only one God. The mystery is how that can be.

And two, means there is a Father and Son, mentioned in 52 different scriptures the Father is always called God.
John Called Jesus God once, saying the true God
Thomas did Once saying, My God
And God the Father Himself called His son God.

Two what? I asked you this previously but you did not answer. And, no, the Father is not always called God, he is also called Father.

It's almost like you learned your Trinity Doctrine somewhere else outside of the Roman Catholic Church.

If I'm not RC and never have been, why should it matter whether or not my doctrine aligns perfectly with theirs?

There is NO ONE GOD until you Add the Mystery Part Free, It's not in scripture.

I gave several passages of Scripture which clearly and irrefutably show that there was, is, and ever will be only one God.

Tell me what you believe, we will talk about that. It's not Trinity though.

It most certainly is the Trinity.

And Free is going back and forth on something he claims is a Mystery, which don't make a whole lot of sense.

Mysteries are called mysteries for a reason. I'm not sure what you mean by "going back and forth," but if you mean that I'm flip-flopping in beliefs, that is certainly not the case. If anything, I believe I have been consistent in what I have stated.

Trinity has always kept the Father and Son separate, Two God's. It's not in scripture, anywhere there is ONE, Rome already told us that.

I don't believe that is at all the case. You have never proven such and so it is just your opinion. On the other hand, I have given several passages of Scripture that clearly show there always was, is, and will be only one God.

The Original Trinity Doctrine did not come to the conclusion of One God. It came to the conclusion that Jesus is just as much God as His Father.

And that is what I have stated as well. That is what the doctrine of the Trinity takes into account.

Now Free says it's a Mystery, so That is right, but you can't talk about what's a Mystery.

I have never denied that there is a dimension of mystery to the Trinity. If you would read what I have clearly wrote, you would not only see this is the case, you would see as to what specifically I was referring to.

I am bailing out of the thread, Sorry.

Why not stay in and at least try and clear up the contradiction in what you've posted regarding your beliefs?

 

[smaller]

Two what? I asked you this previously but you did not answer. And, no, the Father is not always called God, he is also called Father.

Uh, yeah. I have the same question for Mike. Two what or Who's the Two Who's and even more, why are they presented as being "separate" when they are not, but are ONE and THE SAME.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

 

[Free]

I certainly agree. One thing, though, I think can be Biblically established without having to deal with the rather obvious conceptual challenges of the notion of the Trinity. And that is that Jesus, at least in some senses, should be understood as being "God": as participating in, being part of, or belonging to, the "object" (I know this seems flippant, but that is not my intent) we attach the label "God" to.

That is a very interesting thought. I cannot say that I disagree.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

....
To everyone involved in this discussion so far. I'm sorry for bringing up such a heated argument that has occured here. Though there has been a lot of good information shared because of this from the history of the early churches and the Trinity disputes, to different descriptions of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit's relationship together and being rejected and why. But still I'm sorry this sharing of knowledge can at the price of reigniting some ongoing debate.

 

[WIP]

If Jesus is not God, then we are making a grave error by praying in His name, giving credence to His name, using His name with reverence, and worshiping Him.

“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before Me.You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain."

 

[WIP]

....
To everyone involved in this discussion so far. I'm sorry for bringing up such a heated argument that has occured here. Though there has been a lot of good information shared because of this from the history of the early churches and the Trinity disputes, to different descriptions of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit's relationship together and being rejected and why. But still I'm sorry this sharing of knowledge can at the price of reigniting some ongoing debate.

The topic of the Trinity always brings about some strong debate. As also does OSAS vs NonOSAS, eternal conscious torment vs total annihilation, age of the earth, infant baptism vs adult baptism, and a few others.

But, if it's any consolation, this is not too heated yet. Spend some time in the A&T forum, Science forum, or End Times forum if you want to see heated debate.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

The topic of the Trinity always brings about some strong debate. As also does OSAS vs NonOSAS, eternal conscious torment vs total annihilation, age of the earth, infant baptism vs adult baptism, and a few others.

But, if it's any consolation, this is not too heated yet. Spend some time in the A&T forum, Science forum, or End Times forum if you want to see heated debate.

I appreciate what you've said WIP, but the truth is that in the past few years I've spent enough time in open debates to have my fill of them and still yearn for more. While in each one a person probabley feels like they are doing good defending the truth, justified in their actions sometimes harsh or sometimes stuck in an angry debate where the debaters only fuel the others anger, or even just get stuck in explainations that only lead to further debate and no resolution. Then by chance I've come to a realization and a focuse on some verses on arguing. And I think maybe God gave us wisdom to avoid these kinds of heated debates. One, because it takes out focus away from God, away from following Him and His teachings, and focuses it on the arguments. And Two, because it it feeds elements that are not good for those around us, or good for us either. I'm sure there's several verses to consider regarding the act of avoiding arguments that serve no reason, but 2 Timothy 2:14-26 sums it up pretty well.

2 Timothy 2:14-26 (NIV)

14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Thanks again.