Talk to a JW: Idolatry/crosses/saints

[Mohrb]

We were in a large thread that had many different topics going, so this is my attempt to try to organize things.

Another conversation that started a few times, but kept getting pushed aside is the JW perspective of idolatry. We don't care what shape of stake Jesus died on. Whether it was a straight stake or if it had a crossbeam at the top or midway or anywhere else, we see it as just a tool. Not something to be used as a holy symbol. And for a JW, we believe that SOME people get far too close to idolatry (bowing before crosses, drawing a cross on their chest as they enter the church, putting crosses on their bibles/clothes, using icons to advertise how holy they are, etc. Of course, not all Christians do so, but we just find it an unnecessary risk, and chose to remember Jesus' sacrifice for what "Jesus" did... not what his stake/cross did.)

Unfortunately, these conversations kept getting buried, so... here's a place to discuss it if you feel like comparing this perspective with a JW.

... and... have at it!

 

[Tina]

.

Are you a J W ? ... Don't you regard Jesus as a mere angel (Michael) ?? Is your belief any better ???

Nothing wrong with having crosses. I have crosses in my house. Problem starts only if they are turned into idols. I never bow before crosses or draw a cross on my chest. The Bible says we are to worship God in Spirit and in Truth (John 4:23-24), .... not man-made crosses !



:amen

 

[Nick]

Yes Tina, Mohrb is a JW. For the general JW thread, see here.

Now, as to the topic...

I think most Christians who emphasise the cross do so so that they keep remembering the corss, which is generally considered the symbol of Jesus' death and resurrection. I see nothing wrong with doing this to keep this in our heads. The problem comes of course when the cross itself becomes the item of worship.

 

[jasoncran]

the jw's assume that the cross itself is an idol.
they worship something themselves, it's called the tract society as reading the bible for yourself is discouraged. unless it has changed.

 

[Mike]

Chris, it's good that you started all these individual threads, but you really seem to be setting yourself up for a second full time job If you found it hard to keep up with several people on the large thread that Nick references, you really will be pulled around now. Chris, the part-time aero-mechanic, full-time blogger. ;)

I know that JW's feel strongly that the cross was an evil pagan symbol, and that we are using this for our purpose, which is offensive to JW's. As Nick said, we use the cross to remind us of the pain, torture and death Jesus took on our behalf. More so than that, it is reminds us of the Resurrection. But in wearing this around our necks or hanging it on the wall, it is not the evil of the cross, it is the ultimate Good that came from that evil. Of course you know the word "crucifixion" comes from the word "excruciating" in referring to the most wicked, painful death that the Romans perfected. And Jesus subjected Himself to that most painful form of death, only to have Victory over it in His Resurrection! :amen

Mike

 

[jasoncran]

crux, actually means to purify.

the apotheacry crux is used to mix pharmecuticals.

 

[Nick]

:amen Mike!

 

[Cheyenne K]

I fail to see how wearing a cross is idoltry unless you start to pray to the cross, worship it, etc. Personally, I myself wear a cross. However, it's to remember the sacrifice Jesus made for humanity. On the cross, He experianced ultimate suffering both physical and spiritual. The cross is to remember what happened to Him so that I (and many others) could have hope of salvation. When I pray, it's to God; not the cross.

 

[Mysteryman]

I fail to see how wearing a cross is idoltry unless you start to pray to the cross, worship it, etc. Personally, I myself wear a cross. However, it's to remember the sacrifice Jesus made for humanity. On the cross, He experianced ultimate suffering both physical and spiritual. The cross is to remember what happened to Him so that I (and many others) could have hope of salvation. When I pray, it's to God; not the cross.

Hi

The cross that Christ died upon, represents the curse of the Law. "Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree"

Crosses, even though one does not pray to or through the symbol. Actually still can be idolatry , in the sense , that it replaces one's faith. I have seen people praying while rubbing and handling and looking at the cross. Their minds actually are upon the sacrifice(d), instead of the promise. The promise that we can ask anything in his name, and his Father will give it to us. This is what subtilty is all about. It is like saying one thing while do the other. Only that paticular person knows. But in appearance, it gives an outward appearance that the cross is of more significance than one is saying/expressing.

 

[Mohrb]

Are you a J W ? ... Don't you regard Jesus as a mere angel (Michael) ?? Is your belief any better ???

Nothing wrong with having crosses. I have crosses in my house. Problem starts only if they are turned into idols. I never bow before crosses or draw a cross on my chest. The Bible says we are to worship God in Spirit and in Truth (John 4:23-24), .... not man-made crosses !

"just an angel?" no. Per Hebrews 1:9 "That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners." We believe that unlike his God, he has angelic peers... but he was "anointed with the oil of exultation more than [his] partners/peers." Above any of his angelic peers, but still a servant of God. That's why the idea that "Michael the archangel" as another name for Jesus is a common opinion. Beyond the common descriptions (such as both being said to be the one to defeat satan), it stands to reason that Jesus, being above any angel would be described as the "archangel." Of course, that's not really the topic of this thread.

As for how you described Crosses... I agree. MOST Christians use them as a reminder for what Jesus accomplished when he was sacrificed. However, I unfortunately agree that SOME Christians definitely flirt with idolatry in their use of the image.

 

[Mohrb]

Chris, it's good that you started all these individual threads, but you really seem to be setting yourself up for a second full time job If you found it hard to keep up with several people on the large thread that Nick references, you really will be pulled around now. Chris, the part-time aero-mechanic, full-time blogger. ;)

What more fun could a guy have on a weekend night?

I know that JW's feel strongly that the cross was an evil pagan symbol, and that we are using this for our purpose, which is offensive to JW's. As Nick said, we use the cross to remind us of the pain, torture and death Jesus took on our behalf.

Crosses have been USED as pagan symbols, but I don't think it's fair to say that we would call what you would use "evil." We recognize that most people have purely innocent uses for the cross. However, we think it's inappropriate how most people are so obsessed with the cross shape itself. The possibility of a crossbeam all the way at the top, let alone no crossbeam at all would be considered blasphemous by many Christians. The obsession with a detail that isn't there is what we find dangerous.

Could a person use an upright stake (without a crossbeam) to remind themselves of Jesus' sacrifice? If so, it's less likely that this person would be focusing on the idol itself, but what it represents. However, wouldn't you agree that there certainly are people who demand that it must be the "lower case t" shaped cross, and that any other symbol is simply unacceptable? In that case, it seems that more emphasis is being put on the symbol than what it symbolizes.

 

[Mike]

Could a person use an upright stake (without a crossbeam) to remind themselves of Jesus' sacrifice? If so, it's less likely that this person would be focusing on the idol itself, but what it represents. However, wouldn't you agree that there certainly are people who demand that it must be the "lower case t" shaped cross, and that any other symbol is simply unacceptable? In that case, it seems that more emphasis is being put on the symbol than what it symbolizes.

Chris, it seems obvious that it's the JW's who make such an issue out of it. How would a person using a stake be less likely to focus on that as an idol? I don't follow your logic. If the JW's said "we believe it was a stake" and didn't force the issue as a stumbling block, we could chalk it up to differences in archeological/historical understandings. The Church has believed He was crucified on a cross (and better yet, defeated it) for almost two thousand years. For the JW's to come along in the 1870's and reject it as heresy makes my point.

 

[Mohrb]

Chris, it seems obvious that it's the JW's who make such an issue out of it. How would a person using a stake be less likely to focus on that as an idol? I don't follow your logic. If the JW's said "we believe it was a stake" and didn't force the issue as a stumbling block, we could chalk it up to differences in archeological/historical understandings. The Church has believed He was crucified on a cross (and better yet, defeated it) for almost two thousand years. For the JW's to come along in the 1870's and reject it as heresy makes my point.

It's certainly not that "a stake is better than a cross." ... for all we know there MAY have been a crossbeam. The point is the shape of the stake he died on doesn't matter. The reason why I suggested that it's less likely to be idolatry if people were open to the idea of the cross not being shaped as the stereotypical images suggest is because it would indicate that the person is more interested in the story than the actual shape.

The JWs didn't just "decide to call it a stake" one day... the fact is, the word translated as "cross" is "Stauros" ... which means stake or pale. It has no implications of a crossbeam (although crossbeams have been used in various ways on stakes). The point is that it's unnecessary to change the word in the bible (properly translated as "stake") to a shape that's already been holy symbols from pagan religions for centuries (Celts, Egyptians, and Babylonians all used crosses as idols in their worship just like modern day Christians. They didn't worship the cross itself... but what the cross represented.)

 

[Mohrb]

Btw, most people know that egyptian crosses (Ankhs) were used as the symbol of the immortality of many egyptian gods. Many people also understand how Babylonians used it as a symbol of Tammuz... but most don't actually know what the irish crosses symbolized. Here's a couple good web sites for that study showing very modern looking crosses, which were carved long before Christ as symbols of sun worship:

http://www.fantasy-ireland.com/Celtic-crosses.html
http://www.celtarts.com/celtic.htm

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote mohrb: "The point is the shape of the stake he died on doesn't matter."


Hi

Actually, it does matter what shape it was. It is simply the difference between truth and error. And if we are to worship God in Spirit and in truth. Even as insignificant as it might seem, the so called cross and its shape should be understood.

Jesus Christ was not hung on a hewed out piece of lumber in the shape of an +


On the contrary, he was hung of a cut down piece of a green tree - Luke 23:31 which looked like the letter -- Y

There is a reason and purpose for this. One being, that the prophesies of the scriptures tell us , that he had no place to rest his head. And secondly, a green tree represents the lowest of the lowest of criminal. And thirdly, the phrase - "cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree", which also represented Jesus taking the curse of the Law upon him at his crucifixion.

 

[Nick]

The reason why I suggested that it's less likely to be idolatry if people were open to the idea of the cross not being shaped as the stereotypical images suggest is because it would indicate that the person is more interested in the story than the actual shape.

I'm sorry, but I can't see that if you change the shape then people are less likely to make it an idol. It will eventually happen.

I also don't get that you seem to insist that it was a stake, and that if the cross was changed to a stake then people would be less likely to make it an idol, but then you say that what Jesus was crucified on doesn't matter.

 

[Mohrb]

The reason why I suggested that it's less likely to be idolatry if people were open to the idea of the cross not being shaped as the stereotypical images suggest is because it would indicate that the person is more interested in the story than the actual shape.

I'm sorry, but I can't see that if you change the shape then people are less likely to make it an idol. It will eventually happen.

I also don't get that you seem to insist that it was a stake, and that if the cross was changed to a stake then people would be less likely to make it an idol, but then you say that what Jesus was crucified on doesn't matter.

True, Insisting that it MUST be a straight stake is no less idolatrous than insisting that it MUST be a celtic cross shaped cross or that it MUST be a Y shaped tree (as MysteryMan pointed out). If a person declares that "this shape itself is holy and that this shape should be used as part of our worship, while any other possible shape is blasphemy because this chosen shape itself is holy".... then yes, either way, it's idolatry.

My point is if wearing a cross is just a reminder of what was done on it, then I'd be less likely to call it idolatry if such a person were open to the possibility that the stake may have looked like something other than the celtic cross. Then it wouldn't seem so much like it was the shape itself people thought to be holy (thus, an idol).

If what it reminds you of is what's important, it shouldn't matter if you're reminded by a straight or Y shaped stake or a lower or upper case t shaped cross. The point is obsessing that it must be one chosen shape because the shape itself is holy... makes it an idol.

 

[Nick]

The reason why I suggested that it's less likely to be idolatry if people were open to the idea of the cross not being shaped as the stereotypical images suggest is because it would indicate that the person is more interested in the story than the actual shape.

I'm sorry, but I can't see that if you change the shape then people are less likely to make it an idol. It will eventually happen.

I also don't get that you seem to insist that it was a stake, and that if the cross was changed to a stake then people would be less likely to make it an idol, but then you say that what Jesus was crucified on doesn't matter.

True, Insisting that it MUST be a straight stake is no less idolatrous than insisting that it MUST be a celtic cross shaped cross or that it MUST be a Y shaped tree (as MysteryMan pointed out). If a person declares that "this shape itself is holy and that this shape should be used as part of our worship, while any other possible shape is blasphemy because this chosen shape itself is holy".... then yes, either way, it's idolatry.

My point is if wearing a cross is just a reminder of what was done on it, then I'd be less likely to call it idolatry if such a person were open to the possibility that the stake may have looked like something other than the celtic cross. Then it wouldn't seem so much like it was the shape itself people thought to be holy (thus, an idol).

If what it reminds you of is what's important, it shouldn't matter if you're reminded by a straight or Y shaped stake or a lower or upper case t shaped cross. The point is obsessing that it must be one chosen shape because the shape itself is holy... makes it an idol.

Ok. I do agree with most of what you're saying, but I do feel that it is important to determine what the object actually is - whether it be a cross, a Y-shaped tree or a stake etc. But I think it's more important to make sure that the object itself does not become an idol.

 

[Mysteryman]

The shape of the cross is only important when it comes to a more full understanding of scripture.

But in like manner, so is the picture of how many were crucified with Christ. It was not two others and Christ in the middle.

It was four others and Christ in the midst. Total - 5 -- (++ Y ++)

The same with the pictures of the wise men, and how many wise men there were. There were not three wise men either !

Notice this ! +++ < Three crucified --- Many will want this picture in your mind, because of the trinity.

The same holds true with as to how many wise men there were. The pictures of the three wise men, is for the same purpose --- the trinity.

There could have been as many as ten wise men, or as few as only two wise men. So pictures play a role in deception . Truth does not seem to be the norm. Rather, traditions of men is more the norm.

If someone wears a cross around their neck ,just as a reminder. These people must have a very short memory indeed. Why not wear a stone around you neck ? The stone that was rolled away after his resurrection from the dead !

 

[Nick]

MM,

Good point about the stone. But then someone could say, well if you wear a stone, then how about a cross (or a Y, whatever you want to call it). I don't see a problem with either if they're not idolised.

I thought scripture clearly stated that there were two others apart from Jesus who were crucified. I have never heard of the 5. Can you provide scripture to support this?