Talk to a JW: What defines "Christianity?"

[mamre]

So one that professes to follow Jesus Christ's teachings, is a Christian by definition, regardless of his/her interpretation of who is He.

This type of thinking is deeply flawed. To profess to follow Christ's teachings presumes that one actually understands what he says, and this includes everything he says of himself.

To profess to belong to Christ one must also believe in his name, that is, everything who he is. One cannot separate belief or faith in Christ from belief about Christ, like you are trying to do. That is impossible. Who Jesus is is absolutely central to salvation and the gospel message, and as such, in determining those who truly are his followers and those who are not.

Free,

Here it is the definition of the term profess.

To profess:
To affirm belief in: (for example profess Catholicism.)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com

Now to affirm belief in something doesn't require necessarily that that something is true or that agrees with your interpretation. So the reasoning you give is beside the point. Anyone has the freedom to profess a belief. And anyone has the freedom to profess a belief in Christ, and be called Christian, you don't have that monopoly.

If the belief he/she professes is in accordance with your interpretation or not doesn't have any bear whatsoever in his professing to be a Christian.

In other words, you interpret Jesus teachings and the Christ in one way, and that person may interpret Christ in a different way. It really doesn't matter, it is only two different interpretations.

Now you may say yours is the correct interpretation. That is subject to proof. Who is to say your interpretation has precedence over the other person's?

The fact remains however, that regardless of your protest, a profession of belief doesn't depend on the veracity of the object of belief and it doesn't need to agree with yours or anyone's interpretation.

Anyone in this world has the right and the freedom to call him/herself Christian regardless of your protests and your interpretation of what is to be a Christian. You don't have the monopoly on who should call themselves Christian and who shouldn't.

For you or anyone else that says that only those that agree with your interpretations of the Bible should be called Christian is just another evidence of sectarianism, Jesus followers are not sectarians.


Have a great day,
mamre

 

[Mysteryman]

Going around and telling our brethren that they are not a christian because ------ is just wrong !

No, it's not wrong, It's the truth. If you believe that Jesus Christ is a created being who is only a mere angel, you are not fallowing the true Christ but a Lie created by man & Satan. If you believe in a Jesus who was only a prophet & never died on a cross nor resurrected, you are not fallowing the true Christ but a Lie created by man & Satan, If you believe in a Jesus Christ who was one of many Hindu Avatars who were once humans than reached full enlightenment, you are not fallowing the true Christ but a Lie created by man & Satan etc. Therefore you are not fallowing the true Christ, but a lie, therefore you are not a Christian, because a Christian is a follower of the true Jesus Christ & not a lie.

It's not wrong or condemning or judging to tell someone who believes in a false Christ that they are not Christian, then preach the true gospel of Christ to them, thats what we are called to do.

Let us not put them down and make them feel like they are following the anti-christ, when they indeed are not doing so !

Yes we are to be kind & gentle when preaching the word of Christ...

"The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will" (2 Timothy 2:24-26)

"but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence"
(1 Peter 3:15)

But the truth is if you are believing in a lie created by Satan, and are deceiving others to believe that lie, you are doing the work of Satan & man, not God. It's not mean, it's just the Biblical truth.

Let us not forget, that there will be false brethren among us, and we just have to accept this truth. We need to stop grouping ourselves according to our doctrines and seperating others as if they do not love God. They do love God, but I believe they need some help in a fuller understanding.

Like I said earlier, they are believing in a lie created by Satan. They do not believe in the true God but a false God. And especially religions such as Mormonism, Jehovah Wittiness, & Islam are built on doctrine witch is completely blasphemous against God & his Holy Name. They are not brethren in Christ but lost soul, deceived by Satan & the doctrine of men, who need to be saved. They have no love for God, because they don't even know God. And if we don't do our jobs as Christian to preach to these people who are just as we were before, they will be the ones God will say to on judgment day.

"...I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME..." (Matthew 7:23)

Hi Kevin

If I came to you with the notion that you do not believe as I do pertaining to Jesus Christ. And I went about telling you as well as others, that you are not a Christian, because you believe in a false Christ. Would this cause envy and strife, and division ? Or would it cause unity of the Spirit and peace ?

The answer is simple: It would cause envy and strife and division. The very opposite of the gospel message .

We are to draw people towards Christ and the truth. Not make them feel like a cast away. You will never draw anyone towards Christ and the truth with your approach. I will gaurantee it !

Your explanation that you just gave me , grouped non believers in with believers. You grouped them in such a manner, that only you Kevin are a christian on this site, and no one else. Oh, and those whom you will allow to be a christian according to "your" standards ! This makes you the pinnacle person to go and see, and ask permission to become a christian. God then is no longer part of the equation according to your standards. Because it is you that has claimed who is and who is not a christian. Now we would end up with Kevinism.

Many believe lies Kevin, and I would bet my whole eternal inheritance, that you also believe a lie pertaining to some part of your knowledge. And if you do, and I know that you do, then according to your own standards, this makes you not a christian. Does it not feel good to be judged by your own standard Kevin ?

Jesus said that he had two folds, not one. Two groups of sheep that hear his voice. The same sheep that the Father has given him. One of those folds, is the body of Christ. The other pertains to those who are followers. Both are christians by definition. One fold are brethren, the other fold are brothers and sisters in the Lord. What you have done, like Mike, is to reject one of the folds. Your rejection of one of the folds is not acceptable in the eyes of the Lord our God.

You want to classify all christians by your doctrinal standards. As much as the doctrine of the Word is important. The doctrine of scripture only confirms the truth. Reading and believing what your bible says, does not make you a christian. It only affirms what you believe. This is why Romans 8:9 -17 is so critical. You can walk around by a doctrine all day and night, and it will not make you a christian. Only God can make anyone a christian, by putting the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying Abba, Father. Beyond that, you can quote scripture to me all day long, and you can tell me what you believe in a 100 page thesis. It would be nothing but head knowledge, if you do not have the Spirit of His Son in your heart. And only God can place it there, period !

And even though they are followers , which we call brethren, who do not have the Spirit of His Son in their hearts, crying Abba Father. They indeed are still christians by being followers. Because they are of the other fold.

Jesus Christ said, that he did not come to do his own will, but the will of the Father who sent him. The two folds, are also sheep that his Father gave him, and that he should not loose one of them. And he will not loose one of them.

There is way too much self righteousness going on within christendom it is not funny. In fact it is down right irresponsible.

Now, is there a false Christ ? Yes indeed there is. Are there false brethren ? Again, yes indeed there are. Are there false teachers ? Again, yes indeed there are. And only correct teachings will expose false teachings. Truth will expose untruth as a lie. But it is God who opens up the eyes of our understanding. Truth can be taught, but if God does not open up the eyes of one's understanding. Then truth will only go just so far. This is why Paul has stated more than once in his epistles. For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, let them hear.

It would be better for one to be totally blind physically, and yet have perfect spiritual insight pertaining to the things of God. Than it would to have 20/20 physical vision, and be totally blind spiritually.

The world is totally blind Kevin. But our SDA and JW's brethren are not totally blind. We must allow God to continue to open the eyes of all of our understanding. And help each other grow spiritually, and let God be God, and let God do what He is responsible for, and let us do what we are responsible for. We are suppose to be God's ambassador's for Christ, reconcilling the world towards God. We are not suppose to be a stumbling stone that prevents our brothers and or brethren from coming closer to the Lord.

Bless

 

[Mysteryman]

So, Hervey, let me ask you this. At some point, I have to believe even you would say a person is not a Christian. Let's take the extreme obvious. An atheist is not a Christian. I hope (and assume) you'd agree. A devout Buddhist? Yes, I'm using extremes. What about a person who thinks that there is a higher intelligence and that Jesus was a "good teacher"? I know you believe Jesus was specially sent, but what about the person who believes He was nothing more than a mere man with noble moral lessons? Let's take someone who worships the Father devoutly, who practices as an Orthodox Jew. Not that they would, but could they claim Christianity without an argument from you? If each of these people declared that they were a Christian, would you agree to "encourage them"? If you would, then I would submit that the name doesn't mean much to you. The name of Christianity has no value.

If you would say they are not, then I would ask what a person on a very basic level should hold to call himself a Christian. You've never answered the question of this topic yourself, that I can recall.

So, if you believe everyone can say they are a Christian, then there is nothing special about the name. But, if you don't, then you too draw a line somewhere yourself. In this case, we simply have different criteria. I know you love the Lord. And, while I don't understand how you can have someone who isn't God live in your heart, I know you are passionate about Him too. You have as much passion for Him as anyone I've met here or in person. And you are fierce with your faith. This has never been a question to me. I just believe a person who does not hold that Jesus is and was God in the flesh would go by a different name. In saying this, I don't think I'm throwing you into the Lake of Fire.

Mike

Hi MIke

Yes there is a criteria, no doubt. But I keep it to myself . I do not go around telling people who they are not. Rather I tell people who they can become like, or follow.

Let me give you an example using scripture. Jesus had disciples whom he chose, correct ? And one of them was a false disciple, correct ? We know him by the name Judas Iscariot, correct ?

Yet, we also know that Peter denied the Lord. Does the denial of the Lord by Peter, make him a false brethren/brother ? But we also know that he wept bitterly because of his denial of the Lord, correct ? This same Peter , also did not hold forth the gospel of Christ uprightly, and the Apostle Paul told him that he was to blame - Galatians chapter 2. In fact what Peter did, caused Barnabas to leave Paul's side and he also was carried away with their dissimulation, correct ?

Now I know this does not paint a very good picture of Peter. However, Peter was not a false disciple of Christ, nor was he a false teacher of the gospel of Christ. But in both cases he did fall from his responsibility as a disciple and an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Correct ?

Now it would be easy to paint this man Peter, as a false disciple as well as a false teacher of the gospel of Christ, correct ? Now let me ask you, could this also be true of others who were called out by Jesus to be a disciple as well as an Apostle of Jesus Christ ? If it happened to Peter, it could very well happen to another, correct ?

Even though Peter was wrong in both accounts, as I mentioned here, neither is Peter a false disciple nor a false Apostle of Jesus Christ. He was influenced and fearful and persuaded by those around him. Peter sometimes had very high highs, but he also had very low lows in his walk. This lead him to do and say things that were not true. The Lord put the Apostle John with Peter for good reason. John was not one who would waver such as Peter did. The Apostle Paul didn't waver either, and it was the Apostle Paul who corrected Peter for not walking uprightly. But Peter would not be correct so quickly, as we notice that Barnabas was also carried away with this dissimulation that Peter agreed with.

Many influences have gone out into the world, and false teachings also. There are many false doctrines out there. These false doctrines have been rooted within christendom for centuries now. These traditions have been made to simulate truth, when in fact they are untruth and lies. Yet, many cling to them as if they are the truth.

In our walk, we are to walk with the Lord in the Spirit, so that we teach the truth, and not a half truth or an out and out lie. We must do so, in order that God will open up the eyes of their understanding. Light dispells darkness, not the other way around. Christians are suppose to be the lights of the world, not the darkness of the world. We are to shine as lights of meekness and truth. We are not suppose to go around and segregate ourselves . Teach truth, but do not make any false claims along the way.

A Christian is a son of God, one who has the Spirit of Christ in them, who walks after the Spirit, and is led by the Spirit of God. Romans 8:9 - 17

Anyone can claim Romans 8:9 - 17. But the Word tells us, that we shall know them by their fruit. Not by their doctrines ! You or Kevin can telll me time and time again, that I am not a Christian according to your doctrine. And I will just smile , and move along, praying that God will open up the eyes of both your understanding.

Bless

 

[Free]

This type of thinking is deeply flawed. To profess to follow Christ's teachings presumes that one actually understands what he says, and this includes everything he says of himself.

To profess to belong to Christ one must also believe in his name, that is, everything who he is. One cannot separate belief or faith in Christ from belief about Christ, like you are trying to do. That is impossible. Who Jesus is is absolutely central to salvation and the gospel message, and as such, in determining those who truly are his followers and those who are not.

Now to affirm belief in something doesn't require necessarily that that something is true or that agrees with your interpretation. So the reasoning you give is beside the point. Anyone has the freedom to profess a belief. And anyone has the freedom to profess a belief in Christ, and be called Christian, you don't have that monopoly.

And yet, my point is that merely professing to be a Christian does not make one a Christian, so my reasoning is very much on the point. Right belief is very closely tied with salvation and those who are actual followers of Christ must have right belief.

If the belief he/she professes is in accordance with your interpretation or not doesn't have any bear whatsoever in his professing to be a Christian.

In other words, you interpret Jesus teachings and the Christ in one way, and that person may interpret Christ in a different way. It really doesn't matter, it is only two different interpretations.

It does matter. I strongly suggest you leave your relativistic, post-modern thinking behind. Truth matters.

Now you may say yours is the correct interpretation. That is subject to proof. Who is to say your interpretation has precedence over the other person's?

My interpretation is more-or-less in line with historic, orthodox Christianity.

The fact remains however, that regardless of your protest, a profession of belief doesn't depend on the veracity of the object of belief and it doesn't need to agree with yours or anyone's interpretation.

That's silly talk. Why profess belief in something if it is unknown whether or not it is truthful? And it certainly should agree with what is already accepted as correct belief by the Church for the last 2000 years.

Anyone in this world has the right and the freedom to call him/herself Christian regardless of your protests and your interpretation of what is to be a Christian. You don't have the monopoly on who should call themselves Christian and who shouldn't.

As I stated earlier, calling oneself a Christian does not make one a Christian. And, given the biblical mandate for Christians to speak out against false teachers, those who are Christian should certainly be doing just that.

For you or anyone else that says that only those that agree with your interpretations of the Bible should be called Christian is just another evidence of sectarianism, Jesus followers are not sectarians.

No? Do you know why the early Church was persecuted by Rome? Do you know why John wrote against those claiming to be Christian but were Gnostic? What about those who preach a false gospel that Paul writes about, those who claim to be Christian but preach another Christ? Etc.

 

[Mohrb]

1: Even satan professes that Jesus and his Father exist. The difference is he intentionally doesn't follow their teachings.

2: Anyone who -honestly attempts- to follow the teachings God inspired in the bible through Jesus and the apostles/prophets/etc. is a Christian. Some may not follow the bible very well, and thus not everyone does an equally "good job" at being a Christian. But the honest attempt still makes one a Christian.

3: Obviously we can't say that "if you don't believe EXACTLY like me you aren't doing it right, therefore you aren't a Christian at all" ... because that assumes that our understanding is perfect. And no human does a perfect job imitating Christ. No one is a "perfect" Christian. Everyone falls short to one extent or another.

What would you guys object to in the following definition of Christianity?: "Doing your best to follow Christ's teachings."

one more note: Some people (Born againers) tend to make the biggest deal about all a person has to do is say a specific incantation that permanently makes a person Christian and saved regardless of any action they take afterward. However: (Matthew 7:21) "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will."

 

[Mike]

3: Obviously we can't say that "if you don't believe EXACTLY like me you aren't doing it right, therefore you aren't a Christian at all" ... because that assumes that our understanding is perfect. And no human does a perfect job imitating Christ. No one is a "perfect" Christian. Everyone falls short to one extent or another.

What would you guys object to in the following definition of Christianity?: "Doing your best to follow Christ's teachings."

Hi Chris. Not many people believe someone has to believe EXACTLY what they believe. I certainly don't, which is why I have no problem including various denominations and non-denominational believers. In not acknowledging the True Christian God in His fullness is where I'm afraid that a core tenet has been breached. And as I've said, this isn't to speak to salvation, but to what people infer when someone says "I'm a Christian." With that statement, I don't want any uncertainty of who they believe Jesus is. And that addresses your question posed. What happens on Judgment Day is of God's Providence. I do pray that you will come to know Jesus in all His fullness. I know you deeply love Him and follow Him faithfully, but in looking past His Godhood, you are missing His full Glory and the fullness of His sacrifice for us.

one more note: Some people (Born againers) tend to make the biggest deal about all a person has to do is say a specific incantation that permanently makes a person Christian and saved regardless of any action they take afterward. However: (Matthew 7:21) "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will."

No doubt! And the difference between you and them is theirs IS a salvation issue. Someone who claims to know Jesus, but has no heart for Him, is on the road to destruction. OSAS theology is a horrible lie! If I tell my wife I don't need to show her any love, because I already said I love her at our wedding, how can I have a relationship with her? Our love has to be a daily walk of obedience that is naturally inspired by our faith in Him. So, I agree with your point here.

 

[Mohrb]

OSAS theology is a horrible lie! If I tell my wife I don't need to show her any love, because I already said I love her at our wedding, how can I have a relationship with her? Our love has to be a daily walk of obedience that is naturally inspired by our faith in Him. So, I agree with your point here.

Very powerful illustration!

(I'm a

of illustrations)

GET IT!??!?!?!

 

[Mike]

OSAS theology is a horrible lie! If I tell my wife I don't need to show her any love, because I already said I love her at our wedding, how can I have a relationship with her? Our love has to be a daily walk of obedience that is naturally inspired by our faith in Him. So, I agree with your point here.

Very powerful illustration!

(I'm a

of illustrations)

GET IT!??!?!?!

 

[Mohrb]

... cuz ... it's a big fan. :amen

 

[Mike]

... cuz ... it's a big fan. :amen

I got it! No need to explain!

 

[mamre]

And yet, my point is that merely professing to be a Christian does not make one a Christian, so my reasoning is very much on the point. Right belief is very closely tied with salvation and those who are actual followers of Christ must have right belief.
It does matter. I strongly suggest you leave your relativistic, post-modern thinking behind. Truth matters.

While I agree that there is a huge difference between being a true disciple of Christ and someone that merely call him/herself a Christian because he/she says follows Christ, the fact still remains that it is not really the point. Anyone can call him/herself a Christian.

We should not have any problem with that. Because Christ Himself didn't. Read Luke 9:49,50 "And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is afor us."

Anyone can call him/herself a Christian no matter what interpretation of the Bible they happen to have. Or, no matter if they are a true disciple of Christ or not (like the scripture above). As long as they profess to follow Christ, by definition, they are Christians. And you, or anyone else, are not the guardian of who is a Christian and who is not.

My interpretation is more-or-less in line with historic, orthodox Christianity.

Historic and orthodox Christianity is not the same as the word that comes out of the mouth of God. We have no correct knowledge of what happened after the Apostles were killed. There were lots of sects popping up and one prevailed. However, there was no new Apostle called to replace the ones gone, therefore the authority was gone from earth.

In view of the fact that the authority was gone with the Apostles, what you are saying is that a Christian is one the follows the traditions of men that you subscribe to. And, as you may well know, traditions don't translate into truth. Anyone can start a tradition and assert that his/her tradition is the word of God.

Also more-or-less doesn't fit the bill. You either know who God and Jesus are and follow every word that come from their mouth or you don't. More-or-less is the same as being lukewarm. It will not get you into the Kingdom of God, much less the traditions of men will. Jesus Christ said that if we are "lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:16

One either follow traditions, history, orthodoxy or follow the true word that comes out of the mouth of God. A true Christian by any measure is the one that follow every word that comes out of the mouth of God.

That's silly talk. Why profess belief in something if it is unknown whether or not it is truthful? And it certainly should agree with what is already accepted as correct belief by the Church for the last 2000 years.

Lots of people, in fact, the vast majority of this earth profess a belief in things that are not true at all. Just look at the number of churches, sects, philosophies, and their followers around you. It is not silly, it is a real and sad thing. People are following others' beliefs and traditions thinking they are following the truth, look around, and consider your own traditions.

Besides, something accepted as correct belief in no way validates that belief as the true doctrine that comes out of the mouth of God. Accepted as correct is NOT synonym with truth. Also, it truly doesn't matter how long that belief is being followed, it doesn't make it true just for being old. If that was the case the Hindus would have the truth, as theirs are, probably, the most ancient, historic traditions.

As I stated earlier, calling oneself a Christian does not make one a Christian. And, given the biblical mandate for Christians to speak out against false teachers, those who are Christian should certainly be doing just that.
No? Do you know why the early Church was persecuted by Rome? Do you know why John wrote against those claiming to be Christian but were Gnostic? What about those who preach a false gospel that Paul writes about, those who claim to be Christian but preach another Christ? Etc.

How can one speak against false teachers if one doesn't even know where his/her traditions come from. Who is to say that the traditions you follow are not at least partially false? Did you ever check the history against the word that comes out of the mouth of God? Or, you just take what ministers and preachers tell you to follow, at face value? Did you ever prayed to Father in Heaven to reveal the truth about the traditions you follow for Him to confirm whether they are true?

Have a great day,
mamre

 

[HisSheep]

Alright. I have to chime in…

OSAS theology is a horrible lie! If I tell my wife I don't need to show her any love, because I already said I love her at our wedding, how can I have a relationship with her? Our love has to be a daily walk of obedience that is naturally inspired by our faith in Him. So, I agree with your point here. (emphasis added)

First off, what does this have to do with discussing the definition of the term “Christian†with a JW? I have an opinion on the matter too: In my experience, only Arminians use the term “OSASâ€, and they usually need to overlook much scripture to maintain their view. The analogy you offer is a poor one. Regarding the wife in the analogy; It is not enough to merely say you love her… you must actually love her.

And even I agree that Arminians are Christians.

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

And getting back to the JW aspect... When the JW’s come to my door, which they’ve been doing less and less, I point them to a bit of scripture that points out that Jesus is indeed God. The Watchtower Society apparently neglected to scrub this passage, cause it’s in their NWT bible too:

Revelation 1
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

When did God die? ….Hmmm….?

Sorry if I sound testy, the Calvinist bashing gets my goat…

Earlier in the thread, someone, I forgot who, sorry… was alluding to Christians as being those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is as straight up as it gets. This is what is sometimes called “The Invisible Churchâ€. Faith in Jesus’ death and resurrection brings about salvation. That salvation is characterized by the Holy Spirit changing the recipient of the faith. This passage sums it up beautifully:

1 John 2:
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

-HisSheep

 

[Free]

While I agree that there is a huge difference between being a true disciple of Christ and someone that merely call him/herself a Christian because he/she says follows Christ, the fact still remains that it is not really the point. Anyone can call him/herself a Christian.

Yes, that is the point. The point is that the Church has the biblical precedent and command to differentiate those who merely profess affinity with Christ from those who are truly his followers.

We should not have any problem with that. Because Christ Himself didn't. Read Luke 9:49,50 "And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is afor us."

Anyone can call him/herself a Christian no matter what interpretation of the Bible they happen to have. Or, no matter if they are a true disciple of Christ or not (like the scripture above). As long as they profess to follow Christ, by definition, they are Christians. And you, or anyone else, are not the guardian of who is a Christian and who is not.

You are misapplying the Scripture. Merely professing to follow Christ does not in any way mean that one is a Christian.

My interpretation is more-or-less in line with historic, orthodox Christianity.

Historic and orthodox Christianity is not the same as the word that comes out of the mouth of God. We have no correct knowledge of what happened after the Apostles were killed. There were lots of sects popping up and one prevailed. However, there was no new Apostle called to replace the ones gone, therefore the authority was gone from earth.

In view of the fact that the authority was gone with the Apostles, what you are saying is that a Christian is one the follows the traditions of men that you subscribe to. And, as you may well know, traditions don't translate into truth. Anyone can start a tradition and assert that his/her tradition is the word of God.

Do some historical study and see what the Church has believed and why God instituted the Church, then get back to me.

One either follow traditions, history, orthodoxy or follow the true word that comes out of the mouth of God.

False dilemma.

A true Christian by any measure is the one that follow every word that comes out of the mouth of God.

Which is very much a part of the reason why merely professing Christ doesn't make one a Christian.

That's silly talk. Why profess belief in something if it is unknown whether or not it is truthful? And it certainly should agree with what is already accepted as correct belief by the Church for the last 2000 years.

Lots of people, in fact, the vast majority of this earth profess a belief in things that are not true at all. Just look at the number of churches, sects, philosophies, and their followers around you. It is not silly, it is a real and sad thing. People are following others' beliefs and traditions thinking they are following the truth, look around, and consider your own traditions.

And that is the whole point I and others are making. People think they are following Christ and his teachings, professing to be Christians, when in fact they are not.

Besides, something accepted as correct belief in no way validates that belief as the true doctrine that comes out of the mouth of God. Accepted as correct is NOT synonym with truth. Also, it truly doesn't matter how long that belief is being followed, it doesn't make it true just for being old. If that was the case the Hindus would have the truth, as theirs are, probably, the most ancient, historic traditions.

And the Hindu would probably do well to believe their oldest traditions if they are going to remain Hindu. I am not saying that older is better, period. I am saying that within the Christian tradition, the older one goes, the closer they get to the source of the truth and the better the likelihood of finding it. If it is a belief that has held up through 2000 years of Christian history, it stands a very good chance of being true.

As I stated earlier, calling oneself a Christian does not make one a Christian. And, given the biblical mandate for Christians to speak out against false teachers, those who are Christian should certainly be doing just that.
No? Do you know why the early Church was persecuted by Rome? Do you know why John wrote against those claiming to be Christian but were Gnostic? What about those who preach a false gospel that Paul writes about, those who claim to be Christian but preach another Christ? Etc.

How can one speak against false teachers if one doesn't even know where his/her traditions come from. Who is to say that the traditions you follow are not at least partially false? Did you ever check the history against the word that comes out of the mouth of God? Or, you just take what ministers and preachers tell you to follow, at face value? Did you ever prayed to Father in Heaven to reveal the truth about the traditions you follow for Him to confirm whether they are true?

Please answer my questions and address my point.

 

[Mohrb]

And getting back to the JW aspect... When the JW’s come to my door, which they’ve been doing less and less, I point them to a bit of scripture that points out that Jesus is indeed God. The Watchtower Society apparently neglected to scrub this passage, cause it’s in their NWT bible too:

Revelation 1
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

When did God die? ….Hmmm….?

1: I'd appreciate it if you toned down the emotion a notch or 4. You're welcome to respectfully disagree with JWs as we respectfully disagree with OSAS believers, however insinuating that we don't come around because we're afraid of you "exposing" a verse that someone forgot to "scrub" ... What sort of conversation do you think that sets the tone for? If JWs are "coming to your house less" because of this argument, it's certainly not because we're "afraid of some scripture we've never seen before" ... it's because there are some people we could spend hours debating with who have no interest in listening to anyone's opinion but there own... or we could keep talking to people and likely have at least a couple constructive, up-building conversations.
2: Yes, Rev 1:17 seems to be Jesus speaking, and he says he was dead but has been resurrected to eternal life. He was the first and last sacrifice needed to attain salvation for all. This has no suggestion of Jesus "being God." In fact, the simple fact that he states "I was dead" shows that he can not be the Almighty, infinite God.

The only way you could view that as a statement of "being God" is if you read "first and last" as a title that can mean NOTHING under ANY context except "Ton Theon." However, this is entirely circular reasoning. "Jesus must be God because he uses the phrase 'First and Last', and I know 'First and Last' can only be God because only the Father and Son use it." ... this only works with the presupposition that the two are already one for one to assume that such a description can not be applied to anyone else under any context. However, it's a bit simpler to see that such a phrase being used to describe two different beings in two different contexts, perhaps it simply can be used to describe two different beings in two different contexts.

1 John 2:
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Indeed... like JWs believe, salvation IS a free gift to those exercising faith. However, one cannot claim to have a legitimate faith in Jesus and ignore what he taught.


(James 2:14-26) 14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, 16 yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,†but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? 17 Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself. 18 Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.†19 You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is inactive? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by [his] works [his] faith was perfected, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,†and he came to be called “Jehovah’s friend.†24 YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner was not also Ra?hab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[mamre]

Free,
I think we agree that a true follower of Christ lives by every word that comes out of the mouth of God.

We should agree also that living only by the words that come out of the mouth God is not the same as living by any orthodoxy, historic traditions, or any philosophies invented by men no matter how old. Therefore, if you find a group of people that is living by the words that come out of the mouth of God as opposed to traditions of men, than they are the true followers of Christ.

If one lives by some orthodoxy, traditions or an "accepted belief," no matter how old they are, that truly doesn't make them a true follower of Christ. They may claim to be Christian for believing that those traditions are from Christ. But that is not necessarily true.

Do you see the difference? I am talking about the true word that comes out of the mouth of God versus the word of the traditions or "accepted beliefs."


Claiming to be a Christian is something that anyone can and have the right to do regardless of their doctrine being true or not.

You claim your group is the only Christians because you believe in some old traditions that date back to Roman times. Others claim they are Christians because they believe in some doctrine invented by some minister or preacher. Others claim to be Christian because they say they follow the Bible and don't affiliate to any denomination. Others yet claim to be Christian because they interpret the same traditions you follow in a different way. Others re-translated the Bible and claim they are Christian because they claim to have the correct translation now. And so one, and so forth.

The point is: Claiming to be Christian because you follow some historic or orthodox tradition, or some "accepted belief," doesn't make you a true follower of Christ. What if those traditions, in spite of being so old and accepted, didn't come from Christ? Following a tradition back in time to its origins doesn't guarantee that they will lead you to Christ, either. That is a risky and elaborate proposition that may lead you to a dead end.

You are trying to say that those that follow what you follow are the true Christians. But, you seem to have stated yourself that you don't follow all the words that come from the mouth of God. Rather you say you, more-or-less follow some traditions, some orthodoxy of some group's "accepted beliefs." What if that group was a break away from the true doctrine of Christ that prevailed? What guarantee do you have?

Anyone can make such a claim. What makes you think your group is the only Christians at the exclusion of all the others? That is deeply sectarian. A true follower of Christ is not a sectarian. Jesus was not sectarian. He said that those that are not against Him are for Him, leave them be. But you are trying to make the argument that all the other Christian sects are not true because yours is the only one that follow the "accepted beliefs" established by some group ages ago.

We should always remember that history is always written by the conquerors. So, it behooves us to find out if in fact the conquerors were the true followers of Christ.

What do you want to be, a true follower of Christ or a sectarian Christian?

I have a testimony that the only way you can find the true Church of Jesus Christ is by going directly to the Father and ask Him in humility and sincerity. That is the only source you can trust because He is the only source of truth, period. Not some "accepted belief" established by some group no matter how mainstream and well intentioned they may be.

See, it is that simple, you don't need to sift through history to find the truth, all you have to do is to exercise your faith and ask God Himself, after all He is the one the established His true Church long ago. There is no need to trust in the "historic or accepted" arm of flesh.

mamre

 

[Mike]

Alright. I have to chime in…

OSAS theology is a horrible lie! If I tell my wife I don't need to show her any love, because I already said I love her at our wedding, how can I have a relationship with her? Our love has to be a daily walk of obedience that is naturally inspired by our faith in Him. So, I agree with your point here. (emphasis added)

First off, what does this have to do with discussing the definition of the term “Christian†with a JW? I have an opinion on the matter too: In my experience, only Arminians use the term “OSASâ€, and they usually need to overlook much scripture to maintain their view. The analogy you offer is a poor one. Regarding the wife in the analogy; It is not enough to merely say you love her… you must actually love her.

And even I agree that Arminians are Christians.

-HisSheep

HisSheep, the only reason I mentioned OSAS is that I was asked by Chris, who is a JW, about Christians who accept Christ, and then go on to live unGodly lives. If you look at my post where I made my statement, you'll see I was responding to him. I wouldn't say that this is a deal-breaker in and of itself, but if someone doesn't apply their faith to their life, they have some soul searching to do with the Lord.

I don't see how my analogy fell short with you. Perhaps I didn't make it clear that someone needs to show his wife AND actually love her, and not rely on the day he gave his vows. To me, this is a very good analogy, but with every "earthly" analogy, it pales in comparison to matters of the Lord. But in the context of our limited view, it demonstrates the need to be constantly kindling a relationship and investing in it. We can no more say "I Do" and live as "I Don't" than we can accept Jesus and live as though we don't.

 

[HisSheep]

HisSheep, the only reason I mentioned OSAS is that I was asked by Chris, who is a JW, about Christians who accept Christ, and then go on to live unGodly lives. If you look at my post where I made my statement, you'll see I was responding to him. I wouldn't say that this is a deal-breaker in and of itself, but if someone doesn't apply their faith to their life, they have some soul searching to do with the Lord.

Those with genuine faith DO apply it to their lives. That is God’s purpose for our having faith in the first place:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I don't see how my analogy fell short with you. Perhaps I didn't make it clear that someone needs to show his wife AND actually love her, and not rely on the day he gave his vows. To me, this is a very good analogy, but with every "earthly" analogy, it pales in comparison to matters of the Lord. But in the context of our limited view, it demonstrates the need to be constantly kindling a relationship and investing in it. We can no more say "I Do" and live as "I Don't" than we can accept Jesus and live as though we don't.

I think I see what you’re saying better than I did last night, but really, this analogy better describes the relationship between baptism and salvation. The ceremony itself doesn’t do the saving, just as saying wedding vows doesn’t make a solid marriage.

The doctrine of sovereign election is not like this analogy at all… adherents like me would maintain that the Holy Spirit compels the elect to pursue righteousness, and that only the elect receive this compulsion. Those who aren’t pursuing righteousness simply aren’t in Christ. That’s why I cited:

1 John 2:
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

John is telling us that we can be sure that God is working within us when we are able to do His will. When a man comes to true faith in Christ, he is able to overcome sinfulness that he was previously powerless against: just like the walls of Jericho. We can recognize this change in others as well.

It’s very similar to what Jesus said:

Matt 12:33
“Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.

I get tired of all the predestination bashing that goes on in Christian circles. I am sorry to all of you folks for my being too testy. I know it is the wrong way to react. Your “OSAS theology is a horrible lie!†comment really got under my skin. I just get so much of that… it’s hard to keep calm, but I’ll try to be more civil. In the future, you might try calling it the “doctrine of sovereign electionâ€, instead of te grossly biased “OSASâ€.

-HisSheep

 

[Mike]

HisSheep, you raise an interesting point, but I think it deserves its own topic, instead of trailing off from topic here. I'm going to start a new topic on this in the Theology forum. But, in closing here, please don't misinterpret what I am saying. From what I've read in your posts, you have incredible faith, and I wouldn't think about saying you aren't a Christian because you hold to predestination. We disagree here, but it's an understanding of scripture that is different. I have terrific respect and admiration for your faith. We share something in common (I think) in that we were both brought to faith in a very radical (shot out of a canon) way. God blew me away one evening about 20 years ago, and I my world was turned upside down. :amen

Please look for my new thread, and I look forward to your input. But understand, I disagree on OSAS and predestination, but I in no way am saying that you are not a Christian. I believe He foreknew, but I don't believe some people were created to fulfill their destiny of destruction. Christ died for everyone. But we can discuss elsewhere, and let this get back to the topic. Much love to you, brother!