Tasted Death for every Man !

[GodsGrace]

Premise 1: God tasted death for everyone without exception
Premise 2: Psalm 5:5b You hate all who do evil. Deut. 25:16b everyone who acts unjustly is utterly repulsive to the Lord your God.
Premise 3: Christ knows who will believe salvificly and who will not believe
Conclusion: Christ knowingly died for many people that He hates and was/is repulsed by

Premise one:
Either the O.T. is correct
OR
The NT is correct.

Because you have presented a conflict in your above statement.
brightfame52 does the same: He presents many conflicts, and when I present them to either of you, there is never a reply.


So, either the bible is full of conflicts
OR
There must be another explanation.

 

[GodsGrace]

[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Isn't believing a "good work"? If so, then it is Christ who began it and continues it.

Good morning Roger,
Above is an example of why it's almost impossible to have a REAL conversation with another believer.
I posted some verses to reply to something you said...and what do you do?
Instead of answering to my verses, you post new ones.
So it becomes a verse game.

Let's try to do this the right way?

We were discussing your number 2 in post no. 583.
You said the WHOEVER in John 3:16 is generic.
I asked you what you mean by that. To me and all other mainline Christians WHOEVER, means WHOEVER.
If you think it means something different, could you please say what and why?

I had posted:
Acts 16:30-31 What must we do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus. (salvation comes FIRST).
Please explain how it does not. Please give scripture.

Hebrews 11:6 Whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him.
Please explain how the above does NOT give the ordo salutis as:
Believe God exists
Draw near to Him
He rewards those who seek Him --- so God must be sought.

John 6:35 Whoever comes to Christ shall not hunger...whoever believes shall not thirst.

JESUS said that a person must GO TO HIM
and believe in Him
Please explain how that does not say that WE must go to GOD.

John 20:29 JESUS said some believed because they saw Him.
First we see Jesus
THEN we beleive.
Please explain how Jesus did NOT mean this.


Above you bring up a totally different topic: Is believing a good work? In reference to Philippians 1:6
I'll love to answer this....but when we get past what we were discussing.
Please make a note.

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Those who come to belief in Christ can only do so because that belief had first been given to them. Is Phi 1:29 not
biblical?

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Rom 10:10 KJV] 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Just to mouth words of belief doesn't count. One must FIRST truly have that belief in the heart - it has to be real. Any true confession must originate from that -- and God alone places it there. Then, the desire to speak of it will not /cannot be denied

The above do not mean what you think
But again, please make a note of this and we'll discuss at a later time.
Please do not derail our conversation by bringing up new topics.
Please reply to the topic at hand.
Thanks.

See Phi 1:29 above


No, they saw because they believed. But... that believe was first placed into their hearts by God. Please see below

JESUS said they believed because they saw.
Please list the verse and explain how Jesus was wrong in what He thought.

My reply above will be to every point you make regarding faith/belief. To have true faith, God must first instill it into one's heart, otherwise, because the heart of natural man is "deceitful above all things" (see Jer 17:9)
it would be impossible for the heart to give faith to itself.

Jeremiah. Sure. The OT again.
Is there something wrong with the NT?
Why does Jesus teach what the OT does not? Jesus said we are to love even our enemies.
Which one is wrong?

The question underlying pretty much all of your points, but which you haven't yet addressed, is how does one
come to faith?

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

If the "heart is desperately wicked" as the Bible tells us it is, how then is it possible that it would give us true belief?

Actually, I've listed many verses that explain HOW one comes to faith.
It seems to me that YOU are changing the topic at hand.
Please reply to what I write so that this conversation could continue.

You forgot to include verse 9:
9: But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak

Accompany, not cause.

Verse 9 of what? Please give the entire verse.
You mean Hebrews 6:9-10
9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.

I was referring to God being Just. You could have posted some verses that say that God is not just.
Instead you change the subject...so here goes:

Paul is speaking about producing good fruit. See verse 7 about the farmer.
He states that if land keeps producing thorns and thistles it is of no use and will be burned.
Verse 9: Paul states that he does NOT mean this about the Hebrews to whom he is writing. He knows there are better things for them...better works than thorns and thistles...the good works that accompany salvation....even though he is speaking in this way (about land not producing good crop).

What do YOU believe Hebrews 6:9 means?
Good works do not save a person. Paul's audience is ALREADY saved.

The below clearly tells us who the "whosoever(s)" are: those alone whom the Father draws.

[Jhn 6:44, 45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 6:45 KJV]
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

[Jhn 6:66 KJV] 66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

John 6:44 The father draws those that go to Christ.
This is right. Romans 1:19-20 tells us that from the beginning of time God made Himself evident to man from His creation so that man will be without excuse at the time of judgement. Mankind has always had the opportunity of saying YES to God.
Those that learn from the Father are entrusted to the sacrifice of Christ..FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME...this is why Jesus died for EVERYONE...for all those that chose to be entrusted to Him...whoever it might be.

We have to be careful about this since
John 12:32 says that Christ will draw all men to Himself.
. 32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Those who know Jesus and understand the sacrifice He made for them...will be drawn to Him.
Let's remember that it is always God that draws and makes the first move. It is God that reveals Himself to mankind.0


As to Johh 6:66....He was explaining how His body must be eaten, and the word in Greek is literal, many heard t his and thought it was too difficult to accept...they left. Some left because they were gnostic in nature....

Jesus explains this in Luke 8:13
Some accept the word with joy and believe FOR A WHILE ...but when trouble comes, they abandon God.


Now, to reply to MY comment, could you please explain how a person is responsible for their sin IF God is the one choosing who will be saved and who will not? A person is only responsible for their action when it is an action of free will...IF God predetermines an action...how is the person responsible? And yet John admonishes us NOT TO SIN....more conflicts when predestination is assumed to be correct.


part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

rogerg

part 2 of 2

If that is true (and I don't believe for a second it is), then everyone MUST be saved, because, as you say, He died for everyone. Therefore, there can be no sin remaining for which anyone can be judged .... unless, that is, it wasn't intended for everyone. It would be a total contradiction in logic to conclude otherwise - both can't be correct or true at the same time. Just like the "whosoever(s)"

It's useless to explain the above again.
It's rather a deep idea.
Think about it...you seem to be very intelligent.

we are brought under God's judgment because of the transgression of Adam and Eve. Their transgression still hangs over mankind and mankind remains under it. It hasn't gone away.

[1Co 15:21-22 KJV]
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Adam's and Eve's transgression brought to life the law of sin and death which governs this current world.
Everyone born is under it. By it, is God justified to judge mankind because all eagerly participate in it.

Agreed.
All have the sin nature.

Pertains to the next world, not this one

What does?

[Phl
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You said that we are saved by our faith, not Christ's. If that's true, then our faith is of the law and a work.
Per 2:16 : "not justified by the works of the law". But you say our faith is what justifies us. So, it either has to be
by the "faith of Christ", or by our faith, which faith, is a work of the law. It has to be one or the other. Further, and as importantly, it goes on to inform us that Christ's faith is what causes our faith (if given).

Philippians 3:7-11
7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Where, in the verses above, which you have posted, does it state that we are saved by the faith of Jesus?
I don't see it.

And right, we are NOT justified by our works of the law, but by our FAITH IN GOD/JESUS.
WHERE does it state we are saved by Jesus' faith?

Please see
Ephesisans 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Clearly it tells us we are saved by the grace of God through the instrument of faith and that this is a free gift of God. (salvation).

 

[rogerg]

We were discussing your number 2 in post no. 583.
You said the WHOEVER in John 3:16 is generic.
I asked you what you mean by that. To me and all other mainline Christians WHOEVER, means WHOEVER.
If you think it means something different, could you please say what and why?

Good morning wondering,
I answer in verses because they're the gold standard. All other discussion should be a reflection/ restatement of that. I'm extremely surprised that you'd even object to it being a Christian. Biblical verses communicate it better than we ever could - and I'll have to use them to reply to your other questions - hope that's ok

I won't provide a verse right now (I'd like to but I won't) to answer your question. The answer is:
those, and only those, of the "whosoever(s)" that will truly respond from the heart, are those whom God chose and whose names were written into the Lamb's book of life, or, said another way, the Elect.

Please explain how the above does NOT give the ordo salutis as:
Believe God exists
Draw near to Him
He rewards those who seek Him --- so God must be sought.

Simple, (and I think we've addressed this before), to truly do the things you mention, it must first have been given them by God, that is, they are part of the Elect. Gotta supply a verse here:

[Jhn 6:44 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

First we see Jesus
THEN we beleive.
Please explain how Jesus did NOT mean this.

Because as natural man (and woman), we are completely incapable of doing so of ourselves
I don't think the sequence you provide is what the Bible teaches.

The above do not mean what you think
But again, please make a note of this and we'll discuss at a later time.
Please do not derail our conversation by bringing up new topics.
Please reply to the topic at hand.
Thanks.

New topic? Sorry, don't understand? The verse informs us that NO ONE can do ANYTHING related to salvation, unless they were first drawn by God to it, and only those of the Elect will be drawn by God. Make sense, or did I misunderstand your question?

JESUS said they believed because they saw.
Please list the verse and explain how Jesus was wrong in what He thought.

"Please list"? I'm starting to feel like a student taking their final exam - are you a teacher? Anyway, not sure what you're referring to here? It seems to me that if I referenced Phl 1:29, then that's what I thought answered your question. But... that verse actually covers a lot of territory. It is saying that in order to have true faith, it must first be "given", not acquired by us. Pretty powerful stuff, wouldn't you say?

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

eremiah. Sure. The OT again.
Is there something wrong with the NT?
Why does Jesus teach what the OT does not? Jesus said we are to love even our enemies.
Which one is wrong?

Huh? Of course He does. The Bible is one integrated book. So, if God, through Jeremiah, informs us the heart is wicked, then, well, then it's wicked (spiritually speaking from God's perspective) - OT or NT. Why would you then think otherwise? Knowing the heart is wicked is important because it defines for us a starting point to assess our spiritual condition vis-a-vie biblical verses pertaining to the salvation process.

Not sure what you mean by the "love our enemies" comment.

Actually, I've listed many verses that explain HOW one comes to faith.
It seems to me that YOU are changing the topic at hand.
Please reply to what I write so that this conversation could continue.

If the heart is completely wicked, how can it heal itself? Something external to the heart must occur for it to change. That's one of the things becoming born-again by the Holy Spirit does, but only for those to whom "it has been given".

What do YOU believe Hebrews 6:9 means?
Good works do not save a person. Paul's audience is ALREADY saved.

It means the things he said in 6:6 don't apply to those truly saved. Is that your question?
BTW, the term "thorns and briers" is symbolic of the unsaved

[Heb 6:6 KJV]
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.[Heb 6:8-9 KJV]
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

I was referring to God being Just. You could have posted some verses that say that God is not just.

That's a head-scratcher. I never implied nor have I said God is unjust, have I? Have no idea why you'd say that

John 6:44 The father draws those that go to Christ.
This is right. Romans 1:19-20 tells us that from the beginning of time God made Himself evident to man from His creation so that man will be without excuse at the time of judgement. Mankind has always had the opportunity of saying YES to God.
Those that learn from the Father are entrusted to the sacrifice of Christ..FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME...this is why Jesus died for EVERYONE...for all those that chose to be entrusted to Him...whoever it might be.

John 6:44 is saying that those who are drawn to Christ are drawn by God - God's action, not ours, and not the reverse (if that's what you mean)

Depends what you mean by "opportunity". The point is, if someone thinks they have become saved through their own efforts or choice by accepting Christ (in other words, self initiated), It is then a work of their own and not consistent with a Gospel of salvation through grace.

Those who know Jesus and understand the sacrifice He made for them...will be drawn to Him.

Those who have been drawn to Him will know Jesus and His sacrifice. Think you have it reversed.

Now, to reply to MY comment, could you please explain how a person is responsible for their sin IF God is the one choosing who will be saved and who will not? A person is only responsible for their action when it is an action of free will...IF God predetermines an action...how is the person responsible? And yet John admonishes us NOT TO SIN....more conflicts when predestination is assumed to be correct.

Gladly. We all are responsible for it because we (every one of us, except for Christ), were born under, and contributes to, the law of sin and death, effectuated by Satan through Adam and Eve. Their transgression was responsible for the judgement of mankind and the death (spiritual) of many. That God's chose to save some is miraculous in itself, as no one deserves it. Now, what's interesting, is what the sin is. The sin, I believe, is to work for one's salvation. I believe this is so because the antithesis of work is Christ. Said in the reverse, those who are in Christ do not work for their salvation because they know He accomplished everything needed for it -- EVERYTHING. But... only those whom God has drawn will have faith in that and cease working.

[1Co 15:21 KJV] 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

I think what would make our discussion easier, is to understand what the title "Savior" comprises to each of us.
So, I'll begin and then you can include yours:
My belief is simple: that for someone to be the Savior, they had to do all the saving. That is, everything fully and completely, with not one iota of work remaining, nada. If someone doesn't believe that of Christ, then, logically speaking, they don't believe that He is the Savior, right? He can't at the same time be the Savior, and not be the one who saves. If Christ died for everyone but even one task still remains to be accomplished to activate salvation, no matter how small or insignificant it may be, and we do it, then we would have saved ourselves.

 

[rogerg]

It's useless to explain the above again.
It's rather a deep idea.
Think about it...you seem to be very intelligent.

Sorry - not that intelligent - just ask my wife.

Where, in the verses above, which you have posted, does it state that we are saved by the faith of Jesus?
I don't see it.

And right, we are NOT justified by our works of the law, but by our FAITH IN GOD/JESUS.
WHERE does it state we are saved by Jesus' faith?

In 3:9 ?
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Clearly it tells us we are saved by the grace of God through the instrument of faith and that this is a free gift of God. (salvation).

Christ's faith, not our own. He alone was fully faithful to the Father's will. Please observe:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

For clarity, please only read the parts bolded. To paraphrase: due to Jesus Christ's faith, we believe.

That seems like it to me. Did I miss anything?

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry - not that intelligent - just ask my wife.


In 3:9 ?
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


Christ's faith, not our own. He alone was fully faithful to the Father's will. Please observe:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

For clarity, please only read the parts bolded. To paraphrase: due to Jesus Christ's faith, we believe.

That seems like it to me. Did I miss anything?

LOL
I doubt u missed anything!
See you after dinner.

 

[rogerg]

See you after dinner.

OK

 

[jaybo]

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Because as natural man (and woman), we are completely incapable of doing so of ourselves

My Bible says (in context) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me."

Your translation says "no man can come to me..." yet you say "Because as natural man (and woman)..." So, which is it? "Man" or "man (and woman)". If your addition to Scripture is correct, then the Bible you're using is wrong.

 

[rogerg]

Your translation says "no man can come to me..." yet you say "Because as natural man (and woman)..." So, which is it? "Man" or "man (and woman)". If your addition to Scripture is correct, then the Bible you're using is wrong.

You lost me. I wasn't adding to the Bible, I think I was commenting

 

[jaybo]

You lost me. I wasn't adding to the Bible, I think I was commenting

But your Bible -- the KJV -- says "no man can come to me..." It doesn't say "man and woman", your interpretation. Are you adding your words to Scripture or is the KJV wrong?

As was posted by someone else in another forum, "Be careful that you share what is actually written in God’s word. If everyone were to just “make up” whatever they wanted from the scriptures, then the scriptures would soon lose any real credibility of being God’s word."

 

[theMadJW]

Heh! So did he DIE those 3 days, or remain ALIVE?

 

[rogerg]

As was posted by someone else in another forum, "Be careful that you share what is actually written in God’s word. If everyone were to just “make up” whatever they wanted from the scriptures, then the scriptures would soon lose any real credibility of being God’s word."

"Because as natural man (and woman), we are completely incapable of doing so of ourselves" That comment?
It wasn't written to be understood as Scripture - not even close
It was a comment. It did NOT come from, nor was intended as modification to the Bible.
I guess I still don't get your point - sorry

 

[theMadJW]

Churchianity defiles the mind.

 

[jaybo]

"Because as natural man (and woman), we are completely incapable of doing so of ourselves" That comment?
It wasn't written to be understood as Scripture - not even close
It was a comment. It did NOT come from, nor was intended as modification to the Bible.
I guess I still don't get your point - sorry

My point is that the translation that your citing -- the KJV -- is sexist to our modern Western minds. "Man" does not mean "man or woman". We should all be using a translation that is written in our normal, modern language.

The KJV says, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Here is that verse from the NIV, as an example: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." Or from the NRSV, "No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day."

 

[Butch5]

Here is a big issue among Christians.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good morning wondering,
I answer in verses because they're the gold standard. All other discussion should be a reflection/ restatement of that. I'm extremely surprised that you'd even object to it being a Christian. Biblical verses communicate it better than we ever could - and I'll have to use them to reply to your other questions - hope that's ok

I won't provide a verse right now (I'd like to but I won't) to answer your question. The answer is:
those, and only those, of the "whosoever(s)" that will truly respond from the heart, are those whom God chose and whose names were written into the Lamb's book of life, or, said another way, the Elect.

Oh my....I never meant that you're not to use scripture! How else could we know our faith??
I meant that if I post a verse you should please tell me what you think it means if you don't agree with my assessment of it.
If you notice, either above or under each verse I post I also include what it means.
I do this for the verses YOU post too. This is because I give scripture a lot of importance.

The ELECT just means the chosen ones. The way you describe it above, I'd be able to agree with you.
The problem is that what YOU mean by CHOSE and what I mean by chose is entirely different.

If you mean that God KNEW beforehand who would respond to His call and He chose them because of this...
then I agree. Let's leave the book of life out of this discussion because it only confuses ideas. I showed you in Revelation where names can be erased from the Book of Life. (Rev 3:5).

What say you?

Simple, (and I think we've addressed this before), to truly do the things you mention, it must first have been given them by God, that is, they are part of the Elect. Gotta supply a verse here:

[Jhn 6:44 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Because as natural man (and woman), we are completely incapable of doing so of ourselves
I don't think the sequence you provide is what the Bible teaches.

I showed by verses how the sequence is what the bible teaches.
If you don't agree, you'll have to show verses with a different sequence.
It's very clear how salvation comes about if we just read the NT simply.
Where does it say, anywhere, that God has to give to us everything I mentioned:
The drawing near to Him
The seeking Him --- The OT and NT are chock full of verses about how we are to seek God.

As to John 6:44 I've answered to this. If we repeat, we'll be posting forever about the same verse!
Romans 1:19-20 God has revealed Himself to all men (women are included...)
It is up to man to respond. He can respond NO --- this is why man will have no excuse at the time of judgement if his response was NO.

Paul told the jailer (Acts 16:30-31) that to be saved the jailer had to believe.
So

1. God reveals Himself
2. Man must believe to be saved

There is no other order for salvation as is taught in the New Testament.

If you think there is, please supply the verses that state it is God that has to give us everything to be saved and show THAT order of salvation.

New topic? Sorry, don't understand? The verse informs us that NO ONE can do ANYTHING related to salvation, unless they were first drawn by God to it, and only those of the Elect will be drawn by God. Make sense, or did I misunderstand your question?

You asked if belief is a work. Another topic for another day. We have enough going on here.
EVERYONE is drawn by God.
Romans 1:19-20 is pivotal to understanding salvation.

John 20:31 states something important to understand:
31but these [signs] have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

John, the Apostle, states that he wrote his gospel so that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ,
and that BY BELIEVING we may have life in His name.

John wrote so that we may believe.
So that we may have life.

If God does the choosing,,,,,why would John have written this?
Why write a gospel to convince people reading it that Jesus is the Christ and to believe...
IF the believing is useless because God chooses who will be saved??

"Please list"? I'm starting to feel like a student taking their final exam - are you a teacher? Anyway, not sure what you're referring to here? It seems to me that if I referenced Phl 1:29, then that's what I thought answered your question. But... that verse actually covers a lot of territory. It is saying that in order to have true faith, it must first be "given", not acquired by us. Pretty powerful stuff, wouldn't you say?

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

No Roger....Philippians does not say what you think it says.
The difference is extremely important.
Try some different versions since the KJV is not easy to understand due to the language. (sorry 'bout that).

Philippians 1:29 different versions

New International Version
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

New Living Translation
For you have been given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for him.

English Standard Version
For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Berean Study Bible
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him,

Berean Literal Bible
For it has been granted to you concerning Christ, not only to believe in Him but also to suffer concerning Him,

King James Bible
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

New King James Version
For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

New American Standard Bible
For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer on His behalf,

NASB 1995
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

NASB 1977
For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Amplified Bible
For you have been granted [the privilege] for Christ’s sake, not only to believe and confidently trust in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Christian Standard Bible
For it has been granted to you on Christ’s behalf not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For it has been given to you on Christ's behalf not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him,

American Standard Version
because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And this is given to you from God, that not only should you believe in The Messiah, but that you also will suffer for his sake.

Contemporary English Version
and he has blessed you. Not only do you have faith in Christ, but you suffer for him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For unto you it is given for Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him.

English Revised Version
because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:

Good News Translation
For you have been given the privilege of serving Christ, not only by believing in him, but also by suffering for him.

************************************************************************

The above does not mean that we are saved by Christ's faith....
But that we are granted salvation by faith in Him.
Please read carefully.

part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

rogerg

part 2 of 2

Huh? Of course He does. The Bible is one integrated book. So, if God, through Jeremiah, informs us the heart is wicked, then, well, then it's wicked (spiritually speaking from God's perspective) - OT or NT. Why would you then think otherwise? Knowing the heart is wicked is important because it defines for us a starting point to assess our spiritual condition vis-a-vie biblical verses pertaining to the salvation process.

Not sure what you mean by the "love our enemies" comment.

Jesus said that the Jews had heard that they were to hate their enemies and love their neighbor, BUT HE SAID to also love the enemy...
Matthew 5:43
This might be something that was being taught in OT times and Jesus was changing this teaching.

I'd say that the heart is sick, some versions say wicked. This will be referring to our sin nature...
I agree with you about this.

If the heart is completely wicked, how can it heal itself? Something external to the heart must occur for it to change. That's one of the things becoming born-again by the Holy Spirit does, but only for those to whom "it has been given".

I agree that the heart is changed only when one is born again.
The question is: HOW is one born again?
You say that it has been given....where does it say this?

I did ask for a list of the ordo salutis, but you didn't supply it.
Please post some verses that state that God chooses us (and we have nothing to do with His choice).

It means the things he said in 6:6 don't apply to those truly saved. Is that your question?
BTW, the term "thorns and briers" is symbolic of the unsaved

[Heb 6:6 KJV]
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.[Heb 6:8-9 KJV]
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

I was showing you that your interpretation of this verse is incorrect.
of course thorns and thistles refers to non believers.
We were discussing what BETTER THINGS OF YOU means....
Could you state what that means to you?

That's a head-scratcher. I never implied nor have I said God is unjust, have I? Have no idea why you'd say that

God is unjust if your belief is correct.
Why?
Because if God sends those that He passes over to hell, for no reason at all...
THIS would make Him be an unjust God.
And God is NOT unjust.
This was my point.
How is God not unjust (per you) if He sends persons to hell that do not deserve to be there?

John 6:44 is saying that those who are drawn to Christ are drawn by God - God's action, not ours, and not the reverse (if that's what you mean)

Agreed. Except that EVERYONE is drawn to God.
Then one can decide to believe or be an atheist, etc.
I did say that God makes the first move.....God draws man.
Man responds by believing or not believing.
John 3:16
Acts 16:30-31
Romans 10:10

Depends what you mean by "opportunity". The point is, if someone thinks they have become saved through their own efforts or choice by accepting Christ (in other words, self initiated), It is then a work of their own and not consistent with a Gospel of salvation through grace.

We are not saved by our own efforts. I point you again to Ephesians 2:8
We DO, however, have to make the decision to accept or reject Christ.
This does not deny the grace of God because it is by God's grace that we are saved.

We could want to be saved, however, if God does not love humanity and gives humanity grace,,,
we STILL would not be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1-12 explains this well.

I like 1 Corinthians 15:11...it states "so we preached and so you believed".
By preaching a person HEARS the gospel and THEN believes.

Romans 10:17
17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ...NOT because God chose some lucky few.

Gladly. We all are responsible for it because we (every one of us, except for Christ), were born under, and contributes to, the law of sin and death, effectuated by Satan through Adam and Eve. Their transgression was responsible for the judgement of mankind and the death (spiritual) of many. That God's chose to save some is miraculous in itself, as no one deserves it. Now, what's interesting, is what the sin is. The sin, I believe, is to work for one's salvation. I believe this is so because the antithesis of work is Christ. Said in the reverse, those who are in Christ do not work for their salvation because they know He accomplished everything needed for it -- EVERYTHING. But... only those whom God has drawn will have faith in that and cease working.

We do not work for our salvation...
However, God does expect us to work once we are saved.
Galatians 6:9
9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

James 2:26
26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Colossians 3:17
17And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Hebrews 10:24
24And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Works are necessary for our continued salvation.

[1Co 15:21 KJV] 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

I think what would make our discussion easier, is to understand what the title "Savior" comprises to each of us.
So, I'll begin and then you can include yours:
My belief is simple: that for someone to be the Savior, they had to do all the saving. That is, everything fully and completely, with not one iota of work remaining, nada. If someone doesn't believe that of Christ, then, logically speaking, they don't believe that He is the Savior, right? He can't at the same time be the Savior, and not be the one who saves. If Christ died for everyone but even one task still remains to be accomplished to activate salvation, no matter how small or insignificant it may be, and we do it, then we would have saved ourselves.

I agree.
Jesus did everything He had to do to offer to man salvation.
Savior..the one that saves.

BUT...Jesus did HIS part in our salvation...
Do WE have a part in it?
After salvation we have to obey...Jesus left commands and we must abide by these commands, which we are able
to do with the help of the Holy Spirit, sent by Jesus.
John 16:7
7“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness"

Notice verse 8....why would the Holy Spirit have to convict the world of anything, IF it is God that desires who will be saved?

 

[Butch5]

Heh! So did he DIE those 3 days, or remain ALIVE?

He died.

 

[rogerg]

My point is that the translation that your citing -- the KJV -- is sexist to our modern Western minds. "Man" does not mean "man or woman". We should all be using a translation that is written in our normal, modern language.

The KJV says, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Here is that verse from the NIV, as an example: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." Or from the NRSV, "No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day."

Read "man" and imagine it says "man and woman"

 

[jaybo]

Read "man" and imagine it says "man and woman"

Sorry, but I don't agree. The KJV clearly says "man". Again, my point is that the translation that your citing -- the KJV -- is sexist to our modern Western minds. "Man" does not mean "man or woman". We should all be using a translation that is written in our normal, modern language. You should never have to re-translate in your own mind.

The KJV leads to all kinds of misinterpretations because it isn't written in the language we all think , speak, and hear. It is rife with opportunities to read, re-translate, and induce error. That is all I will say on this secondary subject, as it has no relevance to the OP.