Tasted Death for every Man !

[rogerg]

Hi wondering,
I may have missed some of your questions or got them out of sequence. If so, or if you have any confusion, please let me know. Matter of fact I'm sure I have replied accidentally to two of your posts, but that's what you get when you deal with someone who is typing challenged. Just let me know what you'd like me to reply to or clarify- sorry

I did ask for a list of the ordo salutis, but you didn't supply it.
Please post some verses that state that God chooses us (and we have nothing to do with His choice).

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I was showing you that your interpretation of this verse is incorrect.
of course thorns and thistles refers to non believers.
We were discussing what BETTER THINGS OF YOU means....
Could you state what that means to you?

Saying those who are truly saved wouldn't fall away.
[Heb 6:6 KJV] 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

God is unjust if your belief is correct.

I would say the same about your belief

Because if God sends those that He passes over to hell, for no reason at all...
THIS would make Him be an unjust God.
And God is NOT unjust.
This was my point.
How is God not unjust (per you) if He sends persons to hell that do not deserve to be there?

We all deserve hell. The amazing part is that even some are rescued by God- no one deserves it. God is under no obligation whatsoever for salvation. We are all guilty under the auspices of the law of sin and death. Which law was brought to fruition by Adam's and Eve's transgression of God's commandment. We were all born under it and are accomplices and co-conspirators with them in it because we, as natural man, desire, in our heart-of-hearts, to work for salvation, and wrongly perceive those works - the works of law - as righteousness instead of sin. So, for those who place their trust in law, they will be judged fully and completely by the law. Adam and Eve that placed mankind into this predicament.
So to sum it up, no one deserves salvation so there is no injustice in giving it to just a few. Think about it, were it the way you believe it to be, how would it be fair or just for those who are unable to have faith, for whatever reason, and go to hell, You then have the dilemma of manufacturing exceptions to the verdict, or exceptions to the punishment. But God, as creator or mankind, has the right to save those He so chooses to save:

[Rom 9:18-21 KJV]
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

We do not work for our salvation...
However, God does expect us to work once we are saved.

Totally and completely agree with you on this

Works are necessary for our continued salvation.

Totally and completely disagree with you on this

Salvation is eternal in nature. Since it is eternal, it can never by lost nor taken back, once granted.
Were that possible, then Christ's offering would have been insufficient. Working to keep salvation mischaracterizes and misunderstands the essence of salvation

[Heb 7:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Do WE have a part in it?
After salvation we have to obey...Jesus left commands and we must abide by these commands, which we are able
to do with the help of the Holy Spirit, sent by Jesus.

No, there is no part for us in the salvation process, unless you call not doing something, doing something.
Wait -- I've just confused myself.
Anyway, everything we may do after salvation is a byproduct of salvation. We can then become able ministers because we know, and have faith in, the true Gospel
Regarding works after salvation, we most definitely are commanded to good works. What are those works? Chief among them(I think) is to share the true Gospel, the Gospel of God's mercy and grace through Christ with others. The Holy Spirit helping us, especially by teaching us and by ministering , through the Bible, of what is the good and perfect will of God
But again, none of that can invoke salvation.

Notice verse 8....why would the Holy Spirit have to convict the world of anything, IF it is God that desires who will be saved?

Because those are the charges levied against the world for future judgment. And just to be clear, He doesn't just
"desires who will be save", He actually saves them

[Jhn 16:8 KJV]
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
[Jhn 16:9-11 KJV]
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Notice that the sin of which the world will be convicted, is that of not believing on Christ. None do, until it is given them. And as it seems, no other sin is included. Interesting, huh.

Agreed. Except that EVERYONE is drawn to God.
Then one can decide to believe or be an atheist, etc.
I did say that God makes the first move.....God draws man.
Man responds by believing or not believing.

If you believe everyone is drawn to Christ then you must believe that everyone will also come to Christ and I think we both know that will not happen

[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We are not saved by our own efforts. I point you again to Ephesians 2:8
We DO, however, have to make the decision to accept or reject Christ.
This does not deny the grace of God because it is by God's grace that we are saved.

We could want to be saved, however, if God does not love humanity and gives humanity grace,,,
we STILL would not be saved.

Again, if we truly believe that our decision is what invoked salvation for us, then IMHO, we've missed it because we've turned it into our work.

I like 1 Corinthians 15:11...it states "so we preached and so you believed".
By preaching a person HEARS the gospel and THEN believes.

I don't think that's the "hearing" God is speaking of - the hearing you mention is physical hearing. I think the
hearing He has in mind is spiritual hearing. Only God can give us ears that hear. Many hear physically few respond.

[Mat 11:15 KJV] 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

We DO, however, have to make the decision to accept or reject Christ.

In which case we have saved ourselves so we've become our own savior.

We could want to be saved, however, if God does not love humanity and gives humanity grace,,,
we STILL would not be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1-12 explains this well.

I don't find anything in 1Corinthians 15 1:12 that contradicts what I've said. Maybe I'm missing it?

Romans 10:17
17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ...NOT because God chose some lucky few.

The hearing in view is spiritual hearing, not physical hearing. To be able to hear spiritually, one must have first been given by God spiritual ears that can hear

 

[GodsGrace]

Good morning rogerg


I'm going to reply to the above right now....
but I'm feeling like we have lotsa spaghetti on our plate...

Maybe we could take one idea at a time?
I'd like to do this because you bring up one point I've never even heard of before.
The other ideas you have I'm familiar with.
That might be a better way to go....
One idea at a time.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering,
I may have missed some of your questions or got them out of sequence. If so, or if you have any confusion, please let me know. Matter of fact I'm sure I have replied accidentally to two of your posts, but that's what you get when you deal with someone who is typing challenged. Just let me know what you'd like me to reply to or clarify- sorry

No problem. Looks to me like we have enough going on anyway.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before

We've already covered this. We're not going to change each other's minds...but think of it like this and see if it makes sense to you:

Ephesians 1:4
God has chosen us (the elect, saved) IN HIM.....
God has chosen to save us by the power of Christ - before the foundation of the world.

God has decided, before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him IF we chose to be IN CHRIST.

The reason we can't agree is because you either are reformed in faith, or you have tendencies toward predestination. This will color everything you read in the bible.

Now, you may say that I have same problem except for this:
This "problem" did not exist before 1,500 AD when it was taught by the reformers,,,the most famous being John Calvin.
Why didn't the theologians before him teach this? Were they all dumb until 1,500 AD?

1 Clement 7:5 Let us review all the generations in turn, and learn how from generation to generation the Master hath given a place for repentance unto them that desire to turn to Him.

For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey His commandments. 2 Clement 6:7

It is therefore in the power of every one, since man has been made possessed of free-will, whether he shall hear us to life, or the demons to destruction.

He who is good by his own choice is really good; but he who is made good by another under necessity is not really good, because he is not what he is by his own choice…

For no other reason does God punish the sinner either in the present or in the future world, except because He knows that the sinner was able to conquer but neglected to gain the victory.

I was going to post some other ECFs (early church fathers, but it would behoove you to read for yourself the entire article, which I just found this morning and find it to be excellent (having read some of what the early fathers wrote).
Hope you take the time to run through it.

They were taught by the Apostles, so if they don't know what salvation is all about...I don't know who does.

They also put together the bible we read, BTW.

Saying those who are truly saved wouldn't fall away.
[Heb 6:6 KJV] 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Yes,,,I hear this argument...that those that fall away were never really saved to begin with.
I have OSAS as one of the points we could cover....
just quick regarding Hebrews 6:6....WHAT have they FALLEN AWAY from?
In order to fall away from something, you have to have had it.

We all deserve hell. The amazing part is that even some are rescued by God- no one deserves it.

Ah,,,but if God is a JUST God,,,why would He save only some?
This is not justice.
It IS justice if God leaves it up to us, individually, as to whether we wish to be saved or not...
to take advantage of Christ's sacrifice or not.

God is under no obligation whatsoever for salvation. We are all guilty under the auspices of the law of sin and death. Which law was brought to fruition by Adam's and Eve's transgression of God's commandment. We were all born under it and are accomplices and co-conspirators with them in it because we, as natural man, desire, in our heart-of-hearts, to work for salvation, and wrongly perceive those works - the works of law - as righteousness instead of sin. So, for those who place their trust in law, they will be judged fully and completely by the law. Adam and Eve that placed mankind into this predicament.

Agreed.
God is under no obligation. Agreed.
This is what grace is all about....God saves us anyway.
As to the Law....right.
The 613 commands given to Moses will not save us...that is what the Law is.
But we do need to obey Jesus' commands...this is not Law but obedience of faith.
Romans 1:5
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,

Romans 16:26
26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

Because we have faith, we obey. Paul teaches how we are to live in each of his epistles.
This obedience is necessary for salvation. This is our part of the New Covenant.

So to sum it up, no one deserves salvation so there is no injustice in giving it to just a few. Think about it, were it the way you believe it to be, how would it be fair or just for those who are unable to have faith, for whatever reason, and go to hell, You then have the dilemma of manufacturing exceptions to the verdict, or exceptions to the punishment. But God, as creator or mankind, has the right to save those He so chooses to save:

How is one unable to have faith?
One could come to believe in God in two different ways:
1. By sheer determination and will. By studying the bible. By coming to love God as a man in an arranged marriage would come to love his bride.

2. By a personal experience in the spiritual realm, which many Christians have experienced.

IF God chooses to save....how are those going to hell experiencing justice?
They are not.

JESUS Himself tells us on whom the wrath of God resides:
John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

IF God predestined everything, why would Jesus give us the OPTION of obeying?
Jesus says many statement like this,,,showing plainly that it is up to US to obey Him and be taught by Him.
It is not automatic and predestined.


5 men are drowning.
God saves 2 and lets the other 3 die.
If He were just, He would have let all die...
OR
He would have thrown down 5 ropes and given each one the option to hold on or not.
Choosing 2 of them at random is NOT justice.

[Rom 9:18-21 KJV]
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

We could discuss Romans 9,,,but not now.
I will say that it's referring to Jeremiah 18: The Potter and the Clay.
God is speaking about nations. In Romans Paul is recounting God's handling of the Jews and of the Gentiles.
Jeremiah 18:10
10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.

Romans 9, 10 and 11 are about corporate salvation.
Paul is saying that God can allow the Gentiles to come into His Kingdom..even though they were vessels of dishonor.

I could add this to our list....
Just ask yourself this: Does Romans 9 match anything else Paul has stated in any other letter?
You'll find that it does not...it's a totally different subject.

part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

rogerg

part 2 of 2

Totally and completely disagree with you on this

Salvation is eternal in nature. Since it is eternal, it can never by lost nor taken back, once granted.
Were that possible, then Christ's offering would have been insufficient. Working to keep salvation mischaracterizes and misunderstands the essence of salvation

[Heb 7:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 25 says that Jesus is able to make constant intercession for us,,,as you've stated above.
Why would constant intercession be necessary if salvation is eternal?
What if I no longer want Jesus' intercession?

The problem here is that you don't believe in free will.
I guess the above could fall under OSAS,,,which is not a biblical belief.
Jesus will intercede for me, when necessary, for as long as I want Him to...
for as long as I abide in Him. Some stop believing...Luke 8:13 Jesus' own words.

No, there is no part for us in the salvation process, unless you call not doing something, doing something.
Wait -- I've just confused myself.
Anyway, everything we may do after salvation is a byproduct of salvation. We can then become able ministers because we know, and have faith in, the true Gospel
Regarding works after salvation, we most definitely are commanded to good works. What are those works? Chief among them(I think) is to share the true Gospel, the Gospel of God's mercy and grace through Christ with others. The Holy Spirit helping us, especially by teaching us and by ministering , through the Bible, of what is the good and perfect will of God
But again, none of that can invoke salvation.

I agree. I DID say that the good deeds/works come AFTER salvation.
BTW,,,what's the use of preaching the gospel if it is God that decides who will be saved?
He's so sovereign, but He needs the gospel to be preached?

The gospel needs to be preached because it is by HEARING the good news that one can accept to be saved...
otherwise it makes no common sense.
Faith come by hearing the world of God.
Romans 10:17

Because those are the charges levied against the world for future judgment. And just to be clear, He doesn't just
"desires who will be save", He actually saves them

God desires all to be saved....
But we have free will to not want to be saved...

[Jhn 16:8 KJV]
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
[Jhn 16:9-11 KJV]
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Notice that the sin of which the world will be convicted, is that of not believing on Christ. None do, until it is given them. And as it seems, no other sin is included. Interesting, huh.

If we don't believe and have faith...nothing else will save us.
If we don't believe, we are already condemned - so sinning becomes irrelevant (except for the effect on society).
Again we notice that it is believing that saves us....not God choosing us.

If you believe everyone is drawn to Christ then you must believe that everyone will also come to Christ and I think we both know that will not happen

[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Again, if we truly believe that our decision is what invoked salvation for us, then IMHO, we've missed it because we've turned it into our work.


I don't think that's the "hearing" God is speaking of - the hearing you mention is physical hearing. I think the
hearing He has in mind is spiritual hearing. Only God can give us ears that hear. Many hear physically few respond.

[Mat 11:15 KJV] 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


In which case we have saved ourselves so we've become our own savior.



I don't find anything in 1Corinthians 15 1:12 that contradicts what I've said. Maybe I'm missing it?


The hearing in view is spiritual hearing, not physical hearing. To be able to hear spiritually, one must have first been given by God spiritual ears that can hear

God/Jesus will draw all men.
That does not mean all will accept.
We've been through this.

Hearing is physical....correct.
It is those that transfer the information from their head to their heart that will be saved.
For with the heart we believe and with the mouth we confess.
Romans 10:10

The problem here is that of the idea of total depravity.
No where in the N.T. does it state that we are SO depraved, that we cannot chose.
We are born lost and with a sin nature (the proclivity toward sin),,,but nowhere does it state we are
so depraved that we cannot choose salvation.
Can you think of a verse that states this? I can't.

If you want to switch to concentrating on one idea at a time...
we could start with this idea that we are saved by the faith of Christ and not our faith.
I've never heard this and find it interesting.

 

[JLB]

If you want to switch to concentrating on one idea at a time...
we could start with this idea that we are saved by the faith of Christ and not our faith.
I've never heard this and find it interesting.

Faith comes from Christ to us when we hear Him.


It is now our faith, and if we obey what we hear, then the faith we received comes alive, is activated to accomplish what God sent it to do.


If we don’t obey what we hear then the faith we received remains dormant, dead and inactive, being incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete.



For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


Contextually, “works” refers to the action of obedience to the word from God by which we received faith.



And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

The action of obedience was for her to go forward to touch the hem of His garment. When she did, she was healed.


When we receive faith from God it is not earned, but is a gift.
Nevertheless the gift we receive is ours.
Therefore it is our faith.




JLB

 

[rogerg]

Hi wondering

Now, you may say that I have same problem except for this:
This "problem" did not exist before 1,500 AD when it was taught by the reformers,,,the most famous being John Calvin.
Why didn't the theologians before him teach this? Were they all dumb until 1,500 AD?

1 Clement 7:5 Let us review all the generations in turn, and learn how from generation to generation the Master hath given a place for repentance unto them that desire to turn to Him.

I see in your reply that you referenced a Bible different than the one I use. Therefore, since we apparently trust different spiritual sources, it will be very difficult for us to come to agreement on spiritual tenets using them. However, I think there are two points/questions at which our basic perspectives diverge. The answers to which will allow us to either find common ground or realize that can never happen. The questions:

1) Is Jesus Christ the Savior?
2) is it possible to trust the efficacy of Jesus's salvation offering too much?

 

[jaybo]

According to Churchianity, Jesus is them Almighty (or ONE of Them), who has a immortal soul, who cannot dies (he lied to his disciples), who took that thief to heaven, who preached to those in Hellfire, and reentered that corpse.....View attachment 11400

Conned by whom?

 

[theMadJW]

Churchianity.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Conned by whom?

You are being 'conned' by theMadJW if you take him seriously ... put him on IGNORE

 

[jaybo]

You are being 'conned' by theMadJW if you take him seriously ... put him on IGNORE

Done. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Butch5]

According to Churchianity, Jesus is them Almighty (or ONE of Them), who has a immortal soul, who cannot dies (he lied to his disciples), who took that thief to heaven, who preached to those in Hellfire, and reentered that corpse.....View attachment 11400

You won't win any converts by belittling what they believe.

 

[theMadJW]

Butch, that IS what they believe- in STARK contrast with the Bible.

 

[Butch5]

Butch, that IS what they believe- in STARK contrast with the Bible.

That may, or may not, be, but belittling it isn't going to win people over. Besides, I don't think there's a group out there that doesn't have something wrong. So, they could belittle your beliefs too.

 

[theMadJW]

That may, or may not, be, but belittling it isn't going to win people over. Besides, I don't think there's a group out there that doesn't have something wrong. So, they could belittle your beliefs too.

Christ, my example, 'belittled' traditions of the Jews.
Truth cannot be brought so without making that known.

 

[Butch5]

Christ, my example, 'belittled' traditions of the Jews.
Truth cannot be brought so without making that known.

He was authorized by God, you're not. Making enemies of people isn't going to make them apt to listen to you. Also, Christ belittled the Jews after they rejected Him. God had been warning the Jews for hundreds of years. There was reason for Christ to act the way He did towards them. However, Jesus said, you will know them by their love for one another, referring to His followers. If you're a follower and they are followers then there should be love, not belittling.

You said Christ is your example. Christ belittled the Jews who rejected Him. Did He belittle His followers? No.

 

[Butch5]

Hey Butch:

Both sides get into problems explaining sin.
Aside: I did hear an explanation from my side (Reformed) that explains the issue of sin, but it is a minority opinion...though it made sense to me (I am still 'chewing' on it and my favorite guy said he has never heard a solid explanation)

Hi Fredy,

Just another reason to be glad I'm not on either side.

Even those that have not heard the gospel and if so, what specifically must they do to be saved?
(Your side IMO always tries to fit your concept of what God must do to be fair to come up with statements like "everyone without exception must be given a chance to be saved).

When you say "your side", I assume you mean Arminians. I'm not one. I'm not on either side in that debate

.

Because God is love does not mean His love must be for everything/everyone (IMO) which most people assume is the meaning of GOD IS LOVE. GOD IS LOVE fits nicely into their presuppositions.
If he did not love his image, and loathe what is against his image, he would loathe himself, he would be an enemy to his own nature. Nay, if it were possible for him to love it, it were possible for him not to be holy, it were possible then for him to deny himself, and will that he were no God, which is a palpable contradiction. Stephen Charnock A holy and righteous God cannot love (favor) that which is unjust/unrighteous

Not sure I buy that. Some of those guys said some real contradictory stuff. God is the cause of all things but not the cause of sin. That's nothing more than a logical contradiction. But that wasn't my point. God doesn't have to love everyone to be love. My point was that the Bible says God is love. If God is the epitome of love how can He create creatures to torture. That defies the definition of Love. It's a matter of Gods character, not who He loves. But let's not derail the thread with this concept.

Interesting conversation .. thx

Thank you too! It has been interesting.

 

[theMadJW]

He was authorized by God, you're not. Making enemies of people isn't going to make them apt to listen to you. Also, Christ belittled the Jews after they rejected Him. God had been warning the Jews for hundreds of years. There was reason for Christ to act the way He did towards them. However, Jesus said, you will know them by their love for one another, referring to His followers. If you're a follower and they are followers then there should be love, not belittling.

You said Christ is your example. Christ belittled the Jews who rejected Him. Did He belittle His followers? No.

We are to follow his EXAMPLE- and our warfare is against every teaching lying about God.
We love people but HATE their foul beliefs about God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Fredy,

Just another reason to be glad I'm not on either side.

When you say "your side", I assume you mean Arminians. I'm not one. I'm not on either side in that debate

Not sure I buy that. Some of those guys said some real contradictory stuff. God is the cause of all things but not the cause of sin. That's nothing more than a logical contradiction. But that wasn't my point. God doesn't have to love everyone to be love. My point was that the Bible says God is love. If God is the epitome of love how can He create creatures to torture. That defies the definition of Love. It's a matter of Gods character, not who He loves. But let's not derail the thread with this concept.

Thank you too! It has been interesting.

Hi Butch
I think we all reach a point where we just have to depend on our common sense, which God gave to us.

What you've stated above is very important.
If we worship a creator God that created the universe and humans, with no love for them and picks some (or passes over them - same thing)
for eternal torment, like a common sadist, then we are indeed worshipping a cruel God that is to be feared and not loved.

What a contradiction when the bible, and Jesus, teach that He IS love and that we are to seek Him.

This does not seem to bother the reformed.
They don't see the contradiction.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are to follow his EXAMPLE- and our warfare is against every teaching lying about God.
We love people but HATE their foul beliefs about God.

Do you have, like, a direct phone line to the creator?

He told you all denominations are wrong,,,,except yours?

 

[theMadJW]

The truth is simple, lies are complex!