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Tasted Death for every Man !

Butch5 said:
You're coming at it from a Penal perspective too. Where does it say there was a price to be paid to God? If the sin was taken away by the sacrifice, then why did the sinner die? God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. If the animal sacrifice took away the sin, then the sinner should not have died.
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Take a look at Leviticus 4.
Here is the biggest issue I see. We like to assign the highest punishment for the smallest crime. Ohh, you coveted your neighbors ox, well, that’s deserving of death. You didn’t give to the needy when you had the chance.... death. Why do these debates always swing to the extreme? Not all sin leads to death according to James.

Leviticus 4 talks mostly about sins we commit in ignorance. In other words, we did, or failed to do something not knowing we should not have done it, or we should have stepped up and done something.

Leviticus 4 is about forgiveness, and it’s also about celebration. It’s about celebration because relationships are mended and in most cases, only the fat is burned while the rest is enjoyed in a communal meal.

Jesus talks about binding and loosining. If you sin against me, I have the authority to forgive you just as much as you have the authority to forgive me and by doing so, we should celebrate, and God honors this. If we can’t work it out, then one day we’ll have to hash it out and God will be our judge. Either way, the matter will get settled.
 
brightfame52 said:
serving zion



You nailed it !


But sir, you just nailed it, and you prove that what I attended to be comprehended could be , unless you feel you have superior ability to comprehend than others in the community ! I believe if you comprehended, anyone could have. Thanks for being thorough to my post and articulating the same, would all be that way !
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Ok, I am aware that I have comprehended the points you were presenting. I am still not sure why you have made those points though, unless you were attempting to prove something, so I looked to find what you were attempting to prove. Is it that you were trying to refute the doctrine of Universal Salvation? I don't think it would be in high demand, so I had to ask before making that assumption. I don't think that it is too hard for the community to comprehend the points you made, only that those points might not fit with their preconceived doctrinal views therefore causing them to argue (and intrinsically dismiss the points owed to the incompatibility of them in their view). Why did it take 40 pages to this stage and have you obtained what you sought to obtain by it?
 
Butch5 said:
But again, if the price was an animal, why did the sinner die?
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Because Adam brought death with his sin. (Rom 5:12, 14)
Butch5 said:
If the price was paid the sinner shouldn't die. My point is that the sacrifices were not a payment to God for sin, but rather a reminder to Israel of their sin as Paul says in Hebreews 10. We can't pay God for sin. The wages of sin is death. Paul called the result of sin wages. Wages are something we earn not something we pay. By committing sin we earn death. All people die, even Christians.
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Makes me consider the necessity of rebirth...after our death with Christ.
It is written..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:4-6)
The reborn will never die, no matter the condition of the vessel.
 
JLB said:
Can’t wait to hear this.
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It will be interesting but I'm more interested in the other question: what is he attempting to prove by making those points? As soon as I understand that, then I will know if I can offer anything interesting to the discussion. As I said, it looks like he's trying to disprove the doctrine of Universal Salvation, but since it doesn't really need disproving in this community, it has made me wonder what else it is that he feels is necessary to prove.

Maybe it's a simple thing, that he's got an eye for detail and has noticed the translators' choices might be confusing, so he's wanted to explain that he found how to demonstrate the poor choice of words (he's obviously enjoying the Greek) and along with that he has enjoyed fostering discussion. In fact now that I have reflected on his answer to my answer to him, that is seeming the most plausible explanation. I'll wait though and see if he actually does have a goal in mind for the thread :)
 
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serving zion

Ok, I am aware that I have comprehended the points you were presenting. I am still not sure why you have made those points though,
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Very simple, most take those words in Heb 2:9 as proof text that Christ died for all without exception, which I believe is an mistake, and I give my reasons why.
 
Hopeful said:
Because Adam brought death with his sin. (Rom 5:12, 14)

Makes me consider the necessity of rebirth...after our death with Christ.
It is written..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:4-6)
The reborn will never die, no matter the condition of the vessel.
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Agreed, Adam brought death. However, if the animal sacrifices remedied that problem why does the sinner still die? That's the whole point. If the sacrifices took away sin then the sin was paid for and the sinner shouldn't die.

All of those who are given life at the Resurrection will never die. However, Christians in this age, like everyone else, die. If they're sin was paid for they shouldn't die.

God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Paul said, "the wages of sin is death". Christians sin and Christians die, what was paid for?
 
Serving Zion said:
what is he attempting to prove by making those points?
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That we are born again Sovereignly, by the Holy Spirit sometime during our life, then later on we believe the Gospel, because we who are saved have been chosen for salvation; elect




JLB
 
JLB said:
That we are born again Sovereignly, by the Holy Spirit sometime during our life, then later on we believe the Gospel, because we who are saved have been chosen for salvation; elect




JLB
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Wow, I don't see any of that! brightfame52 is it correct that you have wanted to discuss that idea by way of raising these points in this thread?
 
brightfame52 said:
Well some denote by universal salvation that Christ died for everyone and consequently everyone will be saved.
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Yes, but that doesn't answer my question. It really does seem to me that you have made this thread for the purpose of refuting that doctrine because of their use of Hebrews 2:9 to prove it, but for some unbeknown reason I can't seem to get a simple yes or no answer from you when I ask that question of you. I think it's now up around 7 times... So can you just tell me if it is yes or no? Are you trying to refute the doctrine of Universal Salvation by explaining how Hebrews 2:9 can be read without necessitating that doctrine? Then you could say "yes". Or if you are trying to persuade the community to rethink other views, then your answer should be "no", and some explanation given to help me understand why you have thought that the community needs to consider your findings.
 
Butch5 said:
Agreed, Adam brought death. However, if the animal sacrifices remedied that problem why does the sinner still die?
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I fail to see a remedy to a problem.
If the problem you cite is death, nothing we do short of repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins and the reception of the Holy Ghost can cure death.
By being reborn, this time from God's seed, we can live forever.
The vessel we live IN is of no importance.
Butch5 said:
That's the whole point. If the sacrifices took away sin then the sin was paid for and the sinner shouldn't die.
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It is Adam's sin that brought death. We can't have an impact on his deed.
But we can be reborn of God's immortal seed.
Butch5 said:
All of those who are given life at the Resurrection will never die. However, Christians in this age, like everyone else, die. If they're sin was paid for they shouldn't die.
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Who cares?
This time on earth is temporary.
Live for the eternity and let the small stuff slide off your back.
Butch5 said:
God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Paul said, "the wages of sin is death". Christians sin and Christians die, what was paid for?
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God's words referred to the second death.
Paul's, to physical death, the first death...brought on by our own sins.
Christians can die the first death with Christ at their "immersion" into His death, burial, and resurrection (Rom 6:3-7), and live forever.
BTW, those reborn of God don't commit sin.
God's seed bearing liars and thieves is as likely as a peach tree bearing strawberries.
Can't happen.
 
Serving Zion said:
Yes, but that doesn't answer my question. It really does seem to me that you have made this thread for the purpose of refuting that doctrine because of their use of Hebrews 2:9 to prove it, but for some unbeknown reason I can't seem to get a simple yes or no answer from you when I ask that question of you. I think it's now up around 7 times... So can you just tell me if it is yes or no? Are you trying to refute the doctrine of Universal Salvation by explaining how Hebrews 2:9 can be read without necessitating that doctrine? Then you could say "yes". Or if you are trying to persuade the community to rethink other views, then your answer should be "no", and some explanation given to help me understand why you have thought that the community needs to consider your findings.
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The question is what do you mean by universal salvation ?
 
Hopeful said:
Not at all, but not all will submit to His rule.
He died for all mankind.
But most of mankind doesn't want His gift.
That doesn't change the fact that the gift is available.
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It doesn't fit with the assertion which you responded to in the first place, that brightfame52 had said to me:

brightfame52 said:
most take those words in Heb 2:9 as proof text that Christ died for all without exception,
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Can you explain why your position has changed?
 
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