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It couldn't be your interpretation, could it?
Ooops .. .my bad ... Premise 1 should have referred to Romans 5:18 and not Romans 5:30.

Premise 1: Romans 8:15 All means everyone without exception is justified
Premise 2: Some people go to hell
Premise 3: If you are 'justified' you go to heaven (Romans 8:30)
Conclusion: One or more of the premises is WRONG. (I suggest it's your meaning of ALL)


So your premise clearly contradicts Scripture.
Which premise is WRONG and WHY (lo) ... keep in mind, premise 1 is your premise (not mine)
My premises are: Some people go to hell ... I assume you don't find an issue with this
My other premise is the everyone without exception that is justified by God goes to heaven. Are you saying those justified by God (remember we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1) don't go to heaven.
Be specific .... I laid it out so it should be simple to follow (assuming I didn't make another typo ... lol)
 
It is against the terms of service to misrepresent another member's views and I find it objectionable that you would accuse me of conflicting with God's Word. I will report this breach of the ToS unless you can show evidence of your accusation: what have I written that conflicts with God's Word, and which of His Word you accuse me of being in conflict with?

I posted exactly what you wrote -- word-for-word. There is no misrepresentation.

Again, in order for there to be a gift it requires two actions: there must be a giver and there must be a recipient. If I have a gift for you but you won't receive it then it's of no value to you. If you refuse God's gift of eternal life then His gift is of no value.

Romans 6:23, "For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God".
John 3:16-18, " For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

If you want to report me for disagreeing with you, be my guest.
 
Ooops .. .my bad ... Premise 1 should have referred to Romans 5:18 and not Romans 5:30.

Premise 1: Romans 8:15 All means everyone without exception is justified
Premise 2: Some people go to hell
Premise 3: If you are 'justified' you go to heaven (Romans 8:30)
Conclusion: One or more of the premises is WRONG. (I suggest it's your meaning of ALL)



Which premise is WRONG and WHY (lo) ... keep in mind, premise 1 is your premise (not mine)
My premises are: Some people go to hell ... I assume you don't find an issue with this
My other premise is the everyone without exception that is justified by God goes to heaven. Are you saying those justified by God (remember we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1) don't go to heaven.
Be specific .... I laid it out so it should be simple to follow (assuming I didn't make another typo ... lol)

Romans 8:14, "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God." This clearly means that those who are not led by the Spirit of God are not the sons of God.
Romans 8:15-16, "For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children."

People must accept Christ's sacrifice on their behalf. If I pay the penalty for someone's crime but they don't accept my gift then it's as though they are still guilty.

Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined [only], he also called; and [only] those he called, he also justified; and [only] those he justified, he also glorified.

It is wrong to think that everyone has eternal life! They must accept Jesus' substitution of His death for theirs. Eternal life is not automatic for everyone.
 
You should believe both as I am consistent with the Bible.


Your explanation is flawed. I will simplify it.

Premise 1: Christ offers salvation (a gift) to everyone (Per your statement)
Premise 2: Just say "I accept the gift and you are saved" (Per your statement)
Conclusion: When one presents the gospel one just has to say. "Jesus (God) died and rose again and if you say I ACCEPT THE GIFT you are saved".
Response: "Well, that is easy .... I ACCEPT ...That was easy!! Woohooo, I am saved!!! ":lol2
Of course you must mean what you say. If a person is trying to fool God by just mouthing some words, He knows that they are hypocritical.
 
I used the dictionary for the meaning of ALL. The dictionary (the accepted authority on the meaning of words says ALL can be understood TWO ways. Saying ALL means ALL has no communicative value. "X" means "X" for every word in every language. This definition conveys no worth ... if it did we wouldn't need dictionaries or not as much.


I hope you are right for then everyone without exception is heaven bound for we all without exception have been justified. Romans 8:30 He also justified [declared free of the guilt of sin]; and those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity].
But since WE KNOW that everyone doesn't go to heaven WE KNOW the ALL in Romans 5:18 does NOT mean everyone without exception.

Premise 1: Romans 8:30 All means everyone without exception is justified
Premise 2: Some people go to hell
Premise 3: If you are 'justified' you go to heaven (Romans 8:30)
Conclusion: One or more of the premises is WRONG. (I suggest it's your meaning of ALL)
All is always confined to a group. If I say all of the trees on the earth, am I excluding any trees? If I say all of the trees in the United States, am I excluding any trees? If I say all of the trees in the state of New York, have I excluded any trees? The answer is no. In the first example all is without exception. It's all of the tree's on the earth. The other two examples are smaller groups. In each of the examples, did all mean all or were some trees excluded?

Yes, Roman's 5:18 does mean all without exception. If it doesn't, Paul's analogy Falls apart. Death came to all men through Adam and justification of life comes to all men through Christ. But it's not really all men but some? One would think if Paul meant some men he would have said some men.

The reason you're having to say all doesn't mean all in the passage is because you're approaching it from the idea of Penal Atonement. That's not the Biblical model. Penal Atonement is a Reformation doctrine. It comes from the Satisfaction model of the Atonement of Anselm of Canterbury. Anselm said that man had offended God and that offense was so great that man couldn't make up for it. Therefore God had to do it by sending His Son to die. The problem is Anselm's theory was just that, a theory. It was departure from the historic faith. The Reformers took Anselm's theory that they had grown up with and tweaked it into what is now the Penal Model of the Atonement, Penal Atonement. Penal Atonement says that man sinned and owes a debt to God for that sin. Since man can't pay the debt someone else had to. That someone else was Christ. According to the doctrine Christ died in man's place to appease the wrath of God. The problem with Penal Atonement, besides not being Biblical, is that it's a logical contradiction. God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Paul said, "the wages of sin is death". All people sin and all people die. They pay their "sin debt". If Christ paid the "sin debt" to God then Christians shouldn't die, but they do. If, as many claim, the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment, there's a big problem, because Christ didn't suffer eternal conscious torment. Here's the logical contradiction. When we look through the Scriptures we find that God has promised to forgive sins. God didn't say people could pay for their sins. If Jesus paid the "sin debt" then the Christian's sins are not forgiven, they are paid for. Yet, that's not what we find in Scripture. Payment and forgiveness of a debt are mutually exclusive, it's one or the other, but not both. The idea of Penal Atonement simply doesn't fit the Scriptures.

However, neither of these two , Anselm's satisfaction model, nor the Penal model of the Atonement, are the historic Christian faith. That distinction belongs to the Ransom Model of the Atonement. This is the model that was held by the Church for the first 1000 years of it's existence. There are several facets of the Ransom model, but in a nutshell it says that Adam, when he chose to disobey God, fell under Satan's authority. As such his offspring likewise were under Satan's authority. However, God had a plan to remedy this situation. That plan would be that Christ would give Himself as a ransom to ransom or redeem mankind for the Father. Christ's death accomplished this and mankind was again under God. However, there is still the issue of man's sin that needs to be dealt with. Even though man has been redeemed, he is still subject to death. All men will die. But, God has made a way for man that that death doesn't have to be the end. If that man will believe God and follow Christ, God has promised that He will forgive the man of his sins and will give him eternal life.

So, you see, under the Ransom model everything fits together nicely. As in Roman's 5:18 justification of life comes to all men, because Christ has redeemed mankind from Satan and certain death. However, man still has his sin issue to deal with. If he chooses to believe and follow Christ that sin is forgiven. So, in Romans 5:18 both instances of all mean all. Paul's analogy works and doesn't break down. Jesus died as a ransom for all, but not all are saved because not all choose to follow Christ. So, you see, when we go back to the original Christian belief about the Atonement everything fits together and all of the "all" statements can be understood just as written. We don't have to start saying all only means all over here, but not over there.

Instead of changing the words in Scripture, as Christians, we need to start changing what we believe to fit the words of Scripture.
 
I posted exactly what you wrote -- word-for-word. There is no misrepresentation.

Again, in order for there to be a gift it requires two actions: there must be a giver and there must be a recipient. If I have a gift for you but you won't receive it then it's of no value to you. If you refuse God's gift of eternal life then His gift is of no value.

Romans 6:23, "For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God".
John 3:16-18, " For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

If you want to report me for disagreeing with you, be my guest.
I am not reporting you for disagreeing with me, but for saying that I am speaking in conflict with God's Word, which is offensive, unfair, against the ToS and which you have refused to give an explanation for.
 
It couldn't be your interpretation, could it?

Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, [obviously this doesn't mean everyone] because those whom he foreknew [same principle] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined [same principle], he also called; and those he called [same principle], he also justified; and those he justified [same principle], he also glorified.

So your premise clearly contradicts Scripture.
Those who were called, predestined, justified, and glorified, were the of Abraham. Notice Paul uses past tense verbs. These were people God foreknew or knew before ie. in the past. Paul is not talking about future Christians here. He's talking about people like Abraham, Isaac, Moses, and David.
 
I have opposed you here because what you write conflicts with God's Word. I won't accept what you or anyone else says if it conflicts with the Bible.

You may be right in your own eyes; I will pray for "the eyes of your heart" to be opened.

I see you have a conflict with his post. Can you please copy and paste what part of his post you specifically disagree with; that you claim conflicts with God’s word?


If you already did this then what post number is it.

Thanks JLB
 
Again, in order for there to be a gift it requires two actions: there must be a giver and there must be a recipient. If I have a gift for you but you won't receive it then it's of no value to you. If you refuse God's gift of eternal life then His gift is of no value.

This is true, of course.
 
Only if you hold that atonement is made through a Penal Substitution Atonement doctrine, (which is not consistent with scripture).

What is a Penal Substitution Atonement?

Atonement is more associated with the Old Testament sacrifice of animals, and mean “cover”, like pitch covers a roof.


This is inconsistent to the blood of Jesus that takes away our sin.



JLB
 
What is a Penal Substitution Atonement?
It is the doctrine that says the atonement is achieved by the substitution of a penalty. It is named the Penal Substitution Atonement doctrine. There is a thread around somewhere with information about it's origin. It is said to have begun developing with Anselm, who is of course one of the early church fathers that arose after the original disciples had finished their ministry in the church. There's no indication in scripture that the doctrine itself was promoted by the disciples and to believe it necessitates the contradiction of core scriptures that describe God's character (eg: Proverbs 17:15, 1 Corinthians 13:5).
Atonement is more associated with the Old Testament sacrifice of animals, and mean “cover”, like pitch covers a roof.
It is essentially the reconciliation of man (who is fallen) with God (in whose presence the sinner cannot stand). Therefore it requires that the sinner is absolved of his sin in God's view. The Old Testament achieved that sense of justification through the ordinance of sacrifice, but we are told that under the New Covenant, there is no sacrifice remaining to cover sin (Hebrews 10:26), but only repentance (obedience Romans 1:16-17, Romans 6:16) is the thing that justifies us in God's sight (by faith Galatians 2:16, Romans 5:1).
This is inconsistent to the blood of Jesus that takes away our sin.
That's what Hebrews 10:4 gets at: the blood of animals was so common, it could be purchased at will, so it became an industry (that's why Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple). Hebrews 10:29 shows that the writer of Hebrews 10:4 has even gone on to say that specifically: the blood of animals was a common thing, but not so with the blood of the Holy One of God.
This is true, of course.
It's not though. The gift itself exists in the form of a thing offered. For instance, a seller sent me some mints with an offer to give free shipping on my next order. That was a gift. But I returned the mints and the voucher it was stapled to because I had found that the mints contain gelatine, toward which I have both a consiencious objection and find inherently distasteful. So I didn't accept their gift, but it doesn't diminish the fact that they had offered the gift to me.
 
f you want to report me for disagreeing with you, be my guest.
You were not reported for disagreeing. You were reported for accusing him of conflicting with Gods word.

You may disagree, but it is only through your own understanding that you see a conflict.

Instead of being accusatory, try to understand another’s point of view and then show why you disagree.

If I see any more TOS violations from you of this type, I will start issuing warning points. This will lead to a temporary ban from this particular thread.

To recap, you may disagree, but it is against our TOS to accuse others over a disagreement of this type.
 
The Old Testament achieved that sense of justification through the ordinance of sacrifice, but we are told that under the New Covenant, there is no sacrifice remaining to cover sin (Hebrews 10:26),

The sacrifice that remains for believers is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that He made once, and for all.


For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26


This passage is specifically referring to those Hebrews who depart from Christ, and turn back to Judaism, because of persecution by unbelieving Jews. The whole book of Hebrews is written to Hebrew Christians, in order to establishing their understanding of who Christ is, in order to defeat the narrative of unbelieving Jews who practice Judaism, and claim Jesus is a false teacher and a deceiver as well as blasphemer.


Hebrews 10:26 finds its context back in chapter 3 and is reiterated again in chapter 6, and concludes with the final verse of chapter 10.


But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:39

Jesus made this clear in the parable of the sower.


Its is those who continue in the faith steadfast to the end, who are partakers of Christ.


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14




JLB
 
That's what Hebrews 10:4 gets at: the blood of animals was so common, it could be purchased at will, so it became an industry (that's why Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple). Hebrews 10:29 shows that the writer of Hebrews 10:4 has even gone on to say that specifically: the blood of animals was a common thing, but not so with the blood of the Holy One of God.

So I think we agree on the point I made, that the blood of animals, “covers” or atones for sin, whereas the blood of Jesus takes away our sin.
 
Death came to all men through Adam and justification of life comes to all men through Christ.

Contextually though it would mean all men who have believed the Gospel, and therefore have been justified “through Christ”.


I think this is what you mean. If not then please explain.


I certainly don’t believe that some select few are picked out for justification.





JLB
 
So I think we agree on the point I made, that the blood of animals, “covers” or atones for sin, whereas the blood of Jesus takes away our sin.
I would agree with that, but I would warn against bringing animal sacrifices back into the present (which I don't think you are suggesting - its the old covenant, isn't it? Hebrews 8:6).
 
Contextually though it would mean all men who have believed the Gospel, and therefore have been justified “through Christ”.


I think this is what you mean. If not then please explain.


I certainly don’t believe that some select few are picked out for justification.





JLB
I beleive what Paul is saying there is that justification of life comes to all people. That doesn't mean they're saved. But rather the opportunity is there.
 
God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Paul said, "the wages of sin is death".

Yes. The Old Testament sacrifices that foreshadow Christ and His sacrifice teach us the innocent lamb was sacrificed, so as to pay for the sin of the guilty,


The price of sin is death. The evidence of death is the blood.

The innocent animal paid the price for the sin of the person.



JLB
 
I would agree with that, but I would warn against bringing animal sacrifices back into the present (which I don't think you are suggesting - its the old covenant, isn't it? Hebrews 8:6).

Yes, however at the time of the book of Hebrews, the temple was still standing.
 

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