Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Tasted Death for every Man !

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,068
Joined
May 4, 2020
For me it was when I was taught opposing doctrines. I decided to put all of my beliefs on the table. Nothing was sacred. Everything was tested against Scripture. I'd been praying that God would help me understand the Bible.
Hey Butch:
Definitely a wise and noble, well thought out goal ... the achievement of the goal and procedure to obtain the goal being the difficult part. I commend you.

I was tired of this verse fits but that one doesn't.
Agreed. God does not contradict Himself and thus a valid presupposition.

That search lead me to the early Christian writings.
The presupposition being that people got it 'right' (or more so) in the beginning.

That and finding a group of well grounded deep studying Christians has gone a long way in helping me to find what the Bible really teaches.
Ah, another presupposition... the 'right group'.

What really surprised me was how far off modern Christianity is from what was originally taught.
With 100 varieties, that is an observation easily obtained.

On being made in the image of God, we're not really told much. In my opinion it has to do with our being able to reason and basically a higher functioning level of intelligence than the animal kingdom.
That's similar to the best answer (IMO) that I found. Thx
 

Edward

Member
From
USA
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
13,104
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
The breath isn't the act of breathing. The breath of life is something of God Himself that He has put into all flesh. It's that which gives us life and all of our abilities. We can think because God has given us His breath which makes our brains function. Everything we do, we do because God's breath has enabled us.

But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

Both of the bolded words mean wind or breath. There is a breath in man. That is the breath of life from God. The breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. The breath of the Almighty that gives him understanding is the breath of life from God

Notice what Job says, "there is a breath". He didn't say there were breaths, plural. He said there is a breath, one.
When we look at the creation of man we see that God put one breath into the man, the breath of life. It came out of God. The picture we're given is that it was breathed into the man. That indicates that it came out of God. It is this breath that man Adam alive. If we look at Ezekiel 37 we find a picture of the resurrection of Israel. It's very similar to what we see in the creation of Adam. However, after the bones come together and the flesh comes on them they are not alive. Just like Adam. Then God tells Ezekiel to prophesy to the breath.

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1 KJV)

All of the bolded words are the same Hebrew word, ruach. The translators have used three different words to translate it. In doing so many don't see what ruach actually is.

According to this passage, the bones and flesh come together but are not alive. The breath comes into them and they live. But notice the key statement when God is explaining this to Ezekiel. He said He would put His breath into them and they would live. It's God's breath that gives us life and the ability to do the things we do.

Sorry about the bullet points and stuff. I dunno why it did that and I can't figure how to turn it off, lol.




I looked up the Job scripture in the blueletterbible concordance and those two words in Job 32:8 are different words.

  • Spirit is H7307 (ruah) from H7306 and lists different ways it can be used...
  1. breath, spirit
    1. breath (of God)
    2. breath (of man)
    3. every breathing thing
    4. spirit (of man)
  2. And the word Breath is H5397 (nsama) from H5395 and it reads just like the first one in how it's used...
    • breath, spirit
      1. breath (of God)
      2. breath (of man)
      3. every breathing thing
      4. spirit (of man)
    • It says there that when we say spirit we can mean the breath of God. But it can also mean spirit of man. And in Job 32: 8 it says
    • But there is a spirit in man,
      And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding..../

So it speaks of man having a spirit within him that is different than the breath of God. It's clearly speaking of two separate things in man. I'm surely open minded and will admit if I am wrong about something, but as my understanding goes, I understand that man does have a spirit. And so far, I have not heard anything to refute that scripturally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,665
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Hey Butch:
Definitely a wise and noble, well thought out goal ... the achievement of the goal and procedure to obtain the goal being the difficult part. I commend you.
Thanks! In doing that it helped me to set aside presuppositions that were hindering me. At the time I didn't know that the presuppositions were a hinderance because I assumed they were correct. As I began sorting through things and actually checking the things I assumed to be correct, I found that many of them were wrong. Once I realized many of my basic assumptions were wrong, I then had to look at beliefs that were based on those wrong assumptions. It started a snowball effect. Fast forward to today and I've changed over 90% of what I originally believed.
Agreed. God does not contradict Himself and thus a valid presupposition.
Yep, People were telling me that the Scriptures are without error. If that is the case then how are two different churches teaching opposing doctrines from the same Bible? This told me that at least one of them had to be wrong. It's possible that they both were wrong, but it's not possible that both are right. That's what started the search.
The presupposition being that people got it 'right' (or more so) in the beginning.
Yeah, my thought was to go back to the very beginning and see what was taught first. It's funny because Tertullian, one of the early writers, used that very argument. He said that which is first is true. It makes sense, you can't have false doctrine until you have the doctrine. Therefore whatever was taught first is true.
Ah, another presupposition... the 'right group'.
This was a major key. I found a group that studies the Bible deeply and very seriously. It includes studies of the original languages. It includes comparing the Greek OT with the Hebrew OT. It includes looking at variant readings among the different texts. For instance, if we want to know what a soul is, the process is to look at every passage in the Bible that contains the word. In this case it means looking a 458 verses, looking at how they are used in context, and comparing all of those usages to come to the narrowest possible definition. It's very in depth. It takes a lot of time, but I had asked God for this so I was happy to get it. After all, If God is the most important thing to us then there is no amount of time that is too much.
With 100 varieties, that is an observation easily obtained.
That and the fact that many of the doctrines that are taught today were not in the beginning and some that were taught in the beginning aren't anymore.
That's similar to the best answer (IMO) that I found. Thx
You're welcome! That's a hard one because we aren't given a lot of information about what that means.
 

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,665
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Sorry about the bullet points and stuff. I dunno why it did that and I can't figure how to turn it off, lol.




I looked up the Job scripture in the blueletterbible concordance and those two words in Job 32:8 are different words.

  • Spirit is H7307 (ruah) from H7306 and lists different ways it can be used...
  1. breath, spirit
    1. breath (of God)
    2. breath (of man)
    3. every breathing thing
    4. spirit (of man)
  2. And the word Breath is H5397 (nsama) from H5395 and it reads just like the first one in how it's used...
    • breath, spirit
      1. breath (of God)
      2. breath (of man)
      3. every breathing thing
      4. spirit (of man)
    • It says there that when we say spirit we can mean the breath of God. But it can also mean spirit of man. And in Job 32: 8 it says
    • But there is a spirit in man,
      And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding..../

So it speaks of man having a spirit within him that is different than the breath of God. It's clearly speaking of two separate things in man. I'm surely open minded and will admit if I am wrong about something, but as my understanding goes, I understand that man does have a spirit. And so far, I have not heard anything to refute that scripturally.
HI Edward,

No worries, I have problems with the bullet points too. Regarding the passage in Job, Yes, they are different words. They are Neshamah and Ruach. Both mean wind or breath. If you're concerned about whether or not they are interchangeable let me post these passages.

KJV Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV Gen. 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
KJV Gen. 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
KJV Gen. 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

These 4 passages speak of the breath of life. In the first and last verse it is the Neshamah of life and in the middle two verses it is the Ruach of life.

So, these words mean wind or breath. However, sometimes they are translated figuratively as spirit. So why translate them figuratively? Well, take for instance angels and demons, sometimes they are called ruachs, translated spirits. Why would a demon be metaphorically called a wind? It's because they have traits that are similar to the wind. Jesus gave the best explanation of this.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jn. 3:8 KJV)

Both bolded words are the same Greek word pneuma. Jesus said the wind blows where it will. We can hear the sound of it but we cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes. We can see it's results in the blowing leaves. Likewise angels and demons go where they will. We don't know where they come from or where they go. However, we can see their results when the interact in the physical world. So, in a metaphorical sense angels and demons are like the wind, thus they are referred to as winds. Angels and demons are disembodied living beings, the wind is not. In English a disembodied living being is called a spirit. Here's the problem. The translators, when using the word spirit, are giving a real thing as the definition of a metaphor. There is no problem calling angels and demons spirits, that's perfectly fine in English. However, when we call ruachs spirits were a giving a real definition to a metaphor. Ruach and Neshamah do not have as a meaning a disembodied living being. That usage is a metaphor and not literal.

But, to get back to the original issue. We have the creation of man recorded by Moses.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Here is the creation of man. I only see one breath being put in the man. Where do you find another?
 

brightfame52

Member
From
Atlanta
Gender
Male
Messages
741
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
Heb 2:10 makes it clear who the everyone or every man is in Heb 2:9 for whom Christ tasted death for. Its for every son that He suffered and died for, constituting Him the Captain of their Salvation which brings them to Glory:

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Notice it specifies their Salvation ! So He tasted death or suffered for their Salvation. Also this taste of death for them ensures their being brought to Glory.
 
Top