Tasted Death for every Man !

[GodsGrace]

You are being exposed in your denying the efficasiousness of the saving death of Christ, see the people Christ tasted death for, it brings them to Glory, final salvation Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

BF
You surely are causing some confusion here.

Do you deny/refuse the theory of Limited Atonement?

Are you a 4 point calvinist?

 

[Kermos]

Hi Kermos,
I didn't mean "people that don't understand scripture" to be understood in a mean way.
It's just that we're reading the same bible and come up with two totally different conclusions.
Surely, one of us is not correct and is misunderstanding scripture.

I say "us" because, although theologians with better brains for this than we have indeed have studied scripture and have come up with differing theology, we still should read it on our own and come to our own conclusions without having someone or some denomination feed our brain with their beliefs.

So this is how I understand things to be:
After Jesus certain beliefs about Him were disseminated throughout the then known world, and then the world eventually.

In about 1,524 or thereabouts, the reformation happened.
I'm happy it happened because the CC was really out of hand by then, unfortunately because it started out so well.
OTOH, it caused a division amongst we Christians and for this I'm sorry.

It's at the time that Luther and Calvin and others came up with theology that was totally different than what was taught at the beginning. For me the beginning means up until the Nicene Council, 325AD.

And having said all this, I will indeed reply to your post in a few minutes...

wondering, you may not have meant "people that don't understand scripture" to be demeaning, but, due to the correspondence between Hopeful 2 and I, then I interpreted your post as support for Hopeful 2's position, and based upon your response quoted above, then I perceive the accuracy of my interpretion to classify your position to be in tandem with Hopeful 2.

That being written, I must convey that your "It's at the time that Luther and Calvin and others came up with theology that was totally different than what was taught at the beginning" is patently false because Lord Jesus Christ at the beginning of the New Testament in His Blood says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation).

I see you made a couple more posts, so I do plan to respond.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You are being exposed in your denying the efficasiousness of the saving death of Christ, see the people Christ tasted death for, it brings them to Glory, final salvation Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Again you post the refutation of your POV.
Jesus tasted death for every man !
Only the "many" will accept it.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering, you may not have meant "people that don't understand scripture" to be demeaning, but, due to the correspondence between Hopeful 2 and I, then I interpreted your post as support for Hopeful 2's position, and based upon your response quoted above, then I perceive the accuracy of my interpretion to classify your position to be in tandem with Hopeful 2.

That being written, I must convey that your "It's at the time that Luther and Calvin and others came up with theology that was totally different than what was taught at the beginning" is patently false because Lord Jesus Christ at the beginning of the New Testament in His Blood says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation).

I see you made a couple more posts, so I do plan to respond.

I await your response.
Actually, I hadn't been following along very well.
And although I agree with @Hopeful2 on many topics, it would be wrong to assume I agree with him on every topic.
This is true for every member here.

As to my theory of doctrine created after 1,500 years of Christianity and what it meant to be Christian, and the theology of Christianity was already in place - being incorrect - I will stand by unabashedly.

The best Christology is the earliest Christology - I forget who said that.

What the Apostles, who spent time with Jesus for over 3 years, taught about Him and what HE taught, is what I'm going to have to believe.

Not what some person or other, after 1,500 years had passed, decided to change and create a new "truth".

There can only be ONE TRUTH.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I await your response.
Actually, I hadn't been following along very well.
And although I agree with @Hopeful2 on many topics, it would be wrong to assume I agree with him on every topic.
This is true for every member here.

As to my theory of doctrine created after 1,500 years of Christianity and what it meant to be Christian, and the theology of Christianity was already in place - being incorrect - I will stand by unabashedly.

The best Christology is the earliest Christology - I forget who said that.

What the Apostles, who spent time with Jesus for over 3 years, taught about Him and what HE taught, is what I'm going to have to believe.

Not what some person or other, after 1,500 years had passed, decided to change and create a new "truth".

There can only be ONE TRUTH.

Don't forget that the original "truth" can free men from committing sin.
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)

So if the newer "truths" accommodate, minimize, or accept sinning, they are not of God.

 

[brightfame52]

Again you post the refutation of your POV.
Jesus tasted death for every man !
Only the "many" will accept it.

You are being exposed in your denying the efficasiousness of the saving death of Christ, see the people Christ tasted death for, it brings them to Glory, final salvation Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[brightfame52]

Don't forget that the original "truth" can free men from committing sin.
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)

So if the newer "truths" accommodate, minimize, or accept sinning, they are not of God.

Do you realize that teaching a false doctrine is a sin, transgression. People transgress the doctrine of Christ 2 Jn 1:9

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The doctrine of Christ or the teachings of Christ. Who He is, what has He done, and for whom He done it, all these matters in the Doctrine of Christ

 

[brightfame52]

Setst777

Regeneration, which is to pass from death to life (2 Corinthians 1:9-10), is by faith:

Actually its the opposite, Faith is the fruit and result of regeneration 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Sanctification of the Spirit is regeneration, and from it is belief of the Truth or Faith

 

[Kermos]

I was replying to John 15:17 when Jesus tells the Apostles that He chose them.

Hello wondering

Where was John 15:17 quoted or cited im the post to which you replied?

Lord Jesus Christ wonderfully blesses all believers in all time with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

I don't really understand what Acts 1:21-23 has to do with this.

You wrote "You did not choose me but I chose you is referring to the Apostles" (as recorded here), so you portrayed that Christ's audience was limited to the Apostles for John 15:16, but Acts 1:21-23 proves the audience for John 15:16 exceeded the number of Apostles by at least "two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias".

Although I agree that many of Jesus' words in John 14, 15, 16 and 17 could be meant for everyone who would come to believe in Him, we do have to admit that in these chapters, Jesus is speaking to His disciples, who would be known as Apostles after His death, and are meant for them.

The Apostles were called Apostles by Jesus before Christ's crucifixion because "when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as Apostles" (Luke 6:13).

I admit the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) is for all Jesus' disciples in all time.

If you read John 17:20 Jesus says He does not ask FOR THESE ALONE (the disciples) but for THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD.

So the sancification would be for everyone...
but for some of the verses, they are meant for the disciples.

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US DISCIPLES​

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

In another part of the prayer, Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours" (John 17:9).

Jesus said "I do not ask on behalf of the world" (John 17:9), so Jesus uses "the world" to mean different things in different places. Such a difference exists in His use of "the world" in (John 17:9) compared to His use of "the world" in (John 3:16), so Jesus specifically excludes your "everyone".

Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

John 17:

This echoes Jesus' earlier statements: that part of His mission was to pass along the message of God the Father (John 8:28; 12:49). As He prays for the disciples, in particular, He refers to their faith.

When Jesus refers to "their faith" in John 17, then Jesus is referring to "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, faith/belief is "the work of God" in every single believer - God is the cause, Director, Sustainer and Controller of faith in all Christians.

Lord Jesus' High Priestly prayer recorded in John 17 initiates thus "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life" (John 17:1-2).

See "You gave Him authority over all flesh, so Jesus' sovereign authority is over everyone everywhere, yet Jesus continues with "all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life", so Jesus narrows the the blessings in this lovely prayer to God's chosen persons; therefore, your overreaching restrictions do not apply to John 15:16 and John 15:19.

Jesus' closest followers were far from perfect. He spent quite a bit of time correcting—even rebuking—when they struggled to understand His lessons (Matthew 8:26). Sometimes, those mistakes were a matter of misinterpreting the Old Testament, or the law of Moses (Luke 24:25–26). In other instances, pride and overconfidence tripped them up (Mark 8:33). Despite those errors, the men Jesus selected to become "the Twelve" (Matthew 10:1–4) held sincere, legitimate faith in Him and His message (John 6:68–69). That has always been the one and only requirement to be a "true believer." Perfection is not required—only humble, submissive faith.

Behold, Jesus did not say "you Apostles" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 in a fashion like Jesus did with "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil" (John 6:70).

Do not be deceived, Lord Jesus Christ wonderfully blesses all believers in all time with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Of course, one of the men Jesus placed in His inner circle chose betrayal and damnation, instead. Judas' treachery wasn't a surprise to Christ (John 6:64), and it's something still on His mind even as He prays for those who remained loyal (John 17:12).
source: https://www.bibleref.com/John/17/Jo...ge, known as,courage in His closest disciples.
***********************************************************************
John 14

Enduring Word Bible Commentary John Chapter 14

David Guzik commentary on John 14, where Jesus gives the disciples the promise of the Holy Spirit after He’d be departed.

enduringword.com

No verse states Judas "chose betrayal", in fact, the Apostle John specifically wrote "Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. After the morsel, Satan then entered into him" (John 13:26-27).

Friendship is a two-way street.
I choose a friend, and that friend must in turn choose me.

Lord Jesus Christ specifically excluded that which you just wrote when the King of the Kingdom of God says "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16).

So it is with God.
He makes the first move giving us enough grace to respond to His call.
We must respond with a yes or a no.

Your writings do not match the Word of God because your "We must respond with a yes or a no" represents a disallowed human choice as per the Word of God here "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16).

Continued to post 2,170

 

[Kermos]

Continued from post 2,169

God does not force His will on anyone.
A true friend is a friend freely, not because I have the ability to impose it on him.

In the following Scripture, we find the Apostle Paul proclaiming that God does force His will on anyone - the exact opposite of what you wrote. A true friend of God acknowledges the exclusive Power of God.

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
  ]*]"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

We Christians are saved by God's grace, for God's glory, and we joyfully engage in embrace with our Friend Jesus!

What an insult to an almighty and sovereign God that anyone would believe that HE must choose us and force His will upon us to love Him and obey Him !

What an insult toward God by a person to reject the Lord God Almighty's precious Word of God:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

No Scripture states man was imparted the ability to free-will choose God.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

What a sinful insult against Christ for the creature to declare that the Grand Creator God is less than the Word of God declaration of the Lord God Almighty being the absolute loving Sovereign, even Sovereign in every aspect of man's salvation (John 1:3, Daniel 4:34-35, Psalm 27:1).[/b}

 

[Hopeful 2]

You are being exposed in your denying the efficasiousness of the saving death of Christ, see the people Christ tasted death for, it brings them to Glory, final salvation Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Jesus' suffering and death is effective for those who desire it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Do you realize that teaching a false doctrine is a sin, transgression. People transgress the doctrine of Christ 2 Jn 1:9

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The doctrine of Christ or the teachings of Christ. Who He is, what has He done, and for whom He done it, all these matters in the Doctrine of Christ

Yes, I realize that teaching false doctrines is not of God.
As Paul refers to the truth as a "doctrine which is according to Godliness" in 1 Tim 6:3-4, it behooves us to concentrate on things that cause sinners to turn from sin and unto righteousness.

How do you tell men they can live without sinning ?
I start with re-birth from God's seed, and the fruits thereof.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Setst777



Actually its the opposite, Faith is the fruit and result of regeneration 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Sanctification of the Spirit is regeneration, and from it is belief of the Truth or Faith

Why would anyone get regenerated if they didn't have the faith that water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ could regenerate them ? (Rom 6:4)

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus' suffering and death is effective for those who desire it.

False teaching.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, I realize that teaching false doctrines is not of God.
As Paul refers to the truth as a "doctrine which is according to Godliness" in 1 Tim 6:3-4, it behooves us to concentrate on things that cause sinners to turn from sin and unto righteousness.

How do you tell men they can live without sinning ?
I start with re-birth from God's seed, and the fruits thereof.

So do you realize you deny the saving death of Christ ? Those whom He tasted death for, He is the Captain of their Salvation, brings them to Glory, through His suffering and death Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

To deny this is sin, of the worst kind may I add

 

[brightfame52]

Why would anyone get regenerated if they didn't have the faith that water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ could regenerate them ? (Rom 6:4)

I dont know what you talking about

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you realize that teaching a false doctrine is a sin, transgression. People transgress the doctrine of Christ 2 Jn 1:9

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The doctrine of Christ or the teachings of Christ. Who He is, what has He done, and for whom He done it, all these matters in the Doctrine of Christ

What makes you think that what YOU believe is not a false doctrine?
It didn't even exist until after 1,500 years after Jesus.
Think about it.

 

[GodsGrace]

So do you realize you deny the saving death of Christ ? Those whom He tasted death for, He is the Captain of their Salvation, brings them to Glory, through His suffering and death Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

To deny this is sin, of the worst kind may I add

Help!

Are YOU saying that Jesus died for EVERYONE
and Hopeful 2 is saying that Jesus died only for the saved?

 

[Hopeful 2]

False teaching.

So His suffering and death were not sufficient for those who desire to partake in them ?
Think again.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So do you realize you deny the saving death of Christ ?

Not at all.

Those whom He tasted death for, He is the Captain of their Salvation, brings them to Glory, through His suffering and death Heb 2:9-1

I was one of the ones who gave up my old life at my "immersion" into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3)
I was one of those reborn from God's seed when I was "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

I thank God for including me in the "every man" of Heb. 2:9.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

I rejoice in being one of the "many".

To deny this is sin, of the worst kind may I add

What's to deny ?
Jesus died for all men, and many have, and will, profit from it.
Thanks be to God !