TEACHING ARAMIC

[HeIsRisen2018]

Luke 1:26-38 Gabriel announces to Mary that of Christ's birth through her as she found favor in God. This all came about before her and Joseph were married so Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Notice in this verse that only Mary is mentioned as normally people would say the son of Joseph and Mary. Jesus had four half brothers, James, Joses, Juda and Simon and some sisters, but it's not known how many sisters he had or what their names were. The reason they were all half brothers an sisters is because Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

Mary's descent comes through David's son Nathan, Luke 3:31. To fulfill God's promise to establish David's throne forever, God honored Nathan by making him the ancestor of the promised King (Messiah) who would sit on David's throne throughout eternity, Luke 1:31-33. Mary having no brothers to inherit the throne the inheritance would come to her first son being Jesus.

This is why God found favor only in Mary as still being a virgin before she married. Joseph descent from David was broken in being heir to the throne of David as one of his ancestors named Jechonias (Coniah) was so evil God cursed him and his descendants from ever sitting on the throne of David, Matthew 1:11, 12; Jeremiah 22:24-30; 1 Chronicles 3:17. This doesn't mean that Joseph was evil, but means none of his children could ever sit on the throne of David.

Although I've always known that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus, I always thought that was sort of unfair since wasn't Mary His biological mother? It seems that Joseph had the short end of the stick here. :neutral (Although I'm also sure that he loved Him like his own. )

 

[for_his_glory]

Although I've always known that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus, I always thought that was sort of unfair since wasn't Mary His biological mother? It seems that Joseph had the short end of the stick here. :neutral (Although I'm also sure that he loved Him like his own. )

Jesus could have not been conceived in the natural way, but only in the Spiritual being He was fully God and fully man. The angel did come to Joseph in a dream and explained all to him, Matthew 1:18-25. There is not much written about him in the Bible, but he would have raised Jesus from birth, and like all his other sons that were born after Jesus would have all been raised the same so there would be no short end of the stick. It's believe Joseph was born in 100BC and died in 1AD before Jesus started His ministry as this is why only Mary is mentioned through out His ministry.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Jesus could have not been conceived in the natural way, but only in the Spiritual being He was fully God and fully man. The angel did come to Joseph in a dream and explained all to him, Matthew 1:18-25. There is not much written about him in the Bible, but he would have raised Jesus from birth, and like all his other sons that were born after Jesus would have all been raised the same so there would be no short end of the stick. It's believe Joseph was born in 100BC and died in 1AD before Jesus started His ministry as this is why only Mary is mentioned through out His ministry.

True, as I guess that Joseph didn't care all that much that he wasn't His biological father, but another thing I noticed is that I don't think he utters a single word in the Bible, and Mary says very little.

 

[PUMBA2]

accroding the judism the first messiah who is משיח בן יוסף messiah son of josef that doesn't mean that his father named josef but that his comes from the tribe to josef (menashe or efraim) and not from the family of david who is from yeuda.

 

[for_his_glory]

True, as I guess that Joseph didn't care all that much that he wasn't His biological father, but another thing I noticed is that I don't think he utters a single word in the Bible, and Mary says very little.

We know some things of Mary, but nothing of Joseph other than he was a carpenter from Nazareth.

 

[for_his_glory]

accroding the judism the first messiah who is משיח בן יוסף messiah son of josef that doesn't mean that his father named josef but that his comes from the tribe to josef (menashe or efraim) and not from the family of david who is from yeuda.

In post #100 I explained that Messiah had to come from the line of Nathan in order to sit upon the throne of David. Nathan, the Son of David, is where Mary's ancestry goes back to in Israel.

Joseph being the son of Heli, Luke 3:23, and the husband of Mary, had an ancestor name King Jeconiah who was an evil king in the eyes of God who cursed him according to Jeremiah 22:24-30 therefore no one from his lineage would ever sit on the throne of David.

When you read the ancestry in Luke 3:23-38 there were many named Joseph going way back to Jacob's son Joseph. This is why we need to read the generations starting in Genesis 4:16-24; 5:1-32; to understand who we are talking about as it can be confusing when many have the same name.

 

[PUMBA2]

I speak about josef - the son of jacob our ancestor!, abraham born isac and isac born jacob. jcaob had 12 sons. israel is divided into 13 tribes, by the 11 sons of jacob (asher, benyamin, reoben, yehuda, gad, issacar, dan, natali, simon, zevolon, levi) and the 2 son of josef' efraim and menashe. the messiah need to be from 1 of the two tribes of josef sons.

 

[JohnDB]

We know some things of Mary, but nothing of Joseph other than he was a carpenter from Nazareth.

Ummm,
He was a construction worker... probably worked with rock. The "carpenter" notion is an ancient Olde English term meaning general laborer in a construction pool of workers. He probably really didn't work with wood.

Ok...sorry for the interruption...back to normal discussion.

 

[for_his_glory]

I speak about josef - the son of jacob our ancestor!, abraham born isac and isac born jacob. jcaob had 12 sons. israel is divided into 13 tribes, by the 11 sons of jacob (asher, benyamin, reoben, yehuda, gad, issacar, dan, natali, simon, zevolon, levi) and the 2 son of josef' efraim and menashe. the messiah need to be from 1 of the two tribes of josef sons.

I know you are speaking of Joseph the son of Jacob, but I'm speaking about Joseph the son of Heli from the tribe of Judah who was a son of Jacob. Mary and Joseph were both from the tribe of Judah in whom Messiah would come from. But, because of God cursing King Jeconiah (who was also from the tribe of Judah) there would never be anyone from the direct line of Jeconiah to ever sit on the throne in Israel. Only Joseph, not Mary, was from the direct line of Jeconiah so this is why Mary was chosen to birth the Messiah. Ancestries can be confusing as well I know after doing my family ancestry.

 

[PUMBA2]

if everyone have more questions to ask about hebrew words of frases, you're more than welcome to ask me

 

[LovethroughDove]

if everyone have more questions to ask about hebrew words of frases, you're more than welcome to ask me

I heard that there is no word for coincidence, in Aramaic. Is this true?

 

[PUMBA2]

there is "עִידָּן וְעָרָעִיתָא " this is mean coincidence

 

[LovethroughDove]

there is "עִידָּן וְעָרָעִיתָא " this is mean coincidence

It says: Era and time

You just made me understand google translate. Thank you

 

[stovebolts]

the first one will not be a sun of judah but of yosef, and he is called messiah ben yosef משיח בן יוסף

That is very interesting. I have never heard that before. Can you tell me where that comes from?
On a side note, I was told that King Cyrus was considered a Messiah, but like you say with the son of Joseph, Cyrus was not "The" Messiah.

Have you heard this too? I ask because in Christianity, we really don't know our Tanach, and certainly not like you Jews who know it so well. As a result, we only know of one Messiah, and he comes twice.

 

[PUMBA2]

That is very interesting. I have never heard that before. Can you tell me where that comes from?
On a side note, I was told that King Cyrus was considered a Messiah, but like you say with the son of Joseph, Cyrus was not "The" Messiah.

Have you heard this too? I ask because in Christianity, we really don't know our Tanach, and certainly not like you Jews who know it so well. As a result, we only know of one Messiah, and he comes twice.

King Cyrus was a king that has done god's will. in this meaning he was messiah, as it is wrotten:"כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה לִמְשִׁיחוֹ לְכוֹרֶשׁ אֲשֶׁר הֶחֱזַקְתִּי בִימִינוֹ לְרַד לְפָנָיו גּוֹיִם וּמָתְנֵי מְלָכִים אֲפַתֵּחַ לִפְתֹּחַ לְפָנָיו דְּלָתַיִם וּשְׁעָרִים לֹא יִסָּגֵרוּ."(ישעיהו מה א)
but this is only a nickname and not the real messiah. how can Cyros be from the tribe of josef if he is not jewish?

. in the gemrah there is also single opinion that the messiah will not come, because the jewish people have already have used this oppertunity in this time of king חזקיהו. but this opinion has been not accepted by the public.

officialy, The verses that speak of messiah ben yosef in the Torah are
זכריה יב י
Zechariah
12 10
"ושפכתי על בית דויד ועל יושב ירושלם רוח חן ותחנונים והביטו אלי את אשר דקרו וספדו עליו כמספד על היחיד והמר עליו כהמר על הבכור ""

" And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born "

as you can read from this lines, also the family of david is mourning about his death, but he is not one of their family members because he is not the "first born", first born can mean from the origin of the first king of israel which was shaul who came from the tribe of bejamen (which after has collected with yehuda tribe). this man who will be killed will not be from the tribe of judah, the first born king.

 

[PUMBA2]

there is "עִידָּן וְעָרָעִיתָא " this is mean coincidence

I took it from
קהלת פרק ט פסוק יא
Ecclesiastes 9 11
שַׁ֜בְתִּי וְרָאֹ֣ה תַֽחַת־הַשֶּׁ֗מֶשׁ כִּ֣י לֹא֩ לַקַּלִּ֨ים הַמֵּר֜וֹץ וְלֹ֧א לַגִּבּוֹרִ֣ים הַמִּלְחָמָ֗ה וְ֠גַם לֹ֣א לַחֲכָמִ֥ים לֶ֙חֶם֙ וְגַ֨ם לֹ֤א לַנְּבֹנִים֙ עֹ֔שֶׁר וְגַ֛ם לֹ֥א לַיֹּדְעִ֖ים חֵ֑ן כִּי־עֵ֥ת וָפֶ֖גַע יִקְרֶ֥ה אֶת־כֻּלָּֽם

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

the translation of עת ופגע in arhamic which was translated by onkelos and yonatan
is עִידָּן וְעָרָעִיתָא. as you can see, everything can be translated somehow. this is also logical becuase וְעָרָעִיתָא is similar to the word עראי in hebrew which mean temporan. this frase mean that times are hitting upon us and we have nothing to do.

as I know google doesn't have aramic translation yet. you have translted it from yiddish.

 

[stovebolts]

King Cyrus was a king that has done god's will. in this meaning he was messiah, as it is wrotten:"כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה לִמְשִׁיחוֹ לְכוֹרֶשׁ אֲשֶׁר הֶחֱזַקְתִּי בִימִינוֹ לְרַד לְפָנָיו גּוֹיִם וּמָתְנֵי מְלָכִים אֲפַתֵּחַ לִפְתֹּחַ לְפָנָיו דְּלָתַיִם וּשְׁעָרִים לֹא יִסָּגֵרוּ."(ישעיהו מה א)
but this is only a nickname and not the real messiah. how can Cyros be from the tribe of josef if he is not jewish?

. in the gemrah there is also single opinion that the messiah will not come, because the jewish people have already have used this oppertunity in this time of king חזקיהו. but this opinion has been not accepted by the public.

officialy, The verses that speak of messiah ben yosef in the Torah are
זכריה יב י
Zechariah
12 10
"ושפכתי על בית דויד ועל יושב ירושלם רוח חן ותחנונים והביטו אלי את אשר דקרו וספדו עליו כמספד על היחיד והמר עליו כהמר על הבכור ""

" And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born "

as you can read from this lines, also the family of david is mourning about his death, but he is not one of their family members because he is not the "first born", first born can mean from the origin of the first king of israel which was shaul who came from the tribe of bejamen (which after has collected with yehuda tribe). this man who will be killed will not be from the tribe of judah, the first born king.

That is extremely fascinating to me.
As a side note, the Apostle Paul, was also from the tribe of Benjamin, to which he takes great pride. Also, his name was also Saul.

Can I back up a minute? Is Yosef Joseph, Benjamin's brother? If so, then isn't ben Yosef translated as " son of Joseph"? If I've got this right, then would this be speaking of Ephriam and Manessa?

Can you help me better understand?

 

[LovethroughDove]

this is also logical becuase וְעָרָעִיתָא is similar to the word עראי in hebrew which mean temporan. this frase mean that times are hitting upon us and we have nothing to do.

as I know google doesn't have aramic translation yet. you have translted it from yiddish.

To me, it sounds like this phrase shows that we are not in control of things (God is)

Is there a difference between yiddish and Hebrew? I have no clue

 

[for_his_glory]

That is extremely fascinating to me.
As a side note, the Apostle Paul, was also from the tribe of Benjamin, to which he takes great pride. Also, his name was also Saul.

Can I back up a minute? Is Yosef Joseph, Benjamin's brother? If so, then isn't ben Yosef translated as " son of Joseph"? If I've got this right, then would this be speaking of Ephriam and Manessa?

Can you help me better understand?

I will let PUMB2 answer this, but just wanted to add to what I looked up today.

Moshiach ben Yosef in Jewish eschatology , Mashiach ben Yoseph or Messiah ben Joseph, also known as Mashiach bar/ben Ephraim, is a Jewish messiah from the tribe of Ephraim and a descendent of Joseph.

chabad.org What is the Jewish Belief About Moshiach (Messiah)

The Rabbis believe in two Moshiach (Messiah), one exalted and one suffering. It's not two Messiahs, but one Messiah, first time suffering, the second time exalted.

The word Moshiach in English means a savior or a hoped for deliverer. The word Moshiach in Hebrew means "anointed". In Biblical Hebrew the title Moshiach was bestowed on somebody who had attained a position of nobility and greatness.

For example, the high priest is referred to as the kohen ha-moshiach.

In Talmudic literature the title Moshiach, or Melech HaMoshiach (the king Messiah) is reserved for Jewish leader who will redeem Israel in the end of days.

One of the principles of Jewish faith enumerated by Maimonides is that one day there will arise a dynamic Jewish leader, a direct descendant of the Davidic dynasty, who will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and gather Jews from all over the world and bring them back to the land of Israel.

All the nations of the world will recognize Moshiach to be a world leader and will accept his dominion. In the messianic era there will be world peace, no more wars nor famine, and in general a high standard of living.

All mankind will worship G-d and live a more spiritual and moral way of life. The Jewish nation will be preoccupied with learning Torah and fathoming its secrets.

The coming of Moshiach will complete G-d's purpose in creation for man to make an abode for G-d in the lower worlds, that is to reveal the inherent spirituality in the material world.

In Christianity we believe Messiah (Jesus) has already come as Isaiah prophecied in Isaiah 9:6, 7 and fulfilled in the writings of Luke in Luke Chapter 1.

Jesus came to teach us of God's mercy and grace as He calls the unrighteous to repent, Luke 5:32. Jesus suffered and died as Isaiah also prophecied in Isaiah 53:1-9. He paid our debt for sin by laying down His own life that we can have eternal life with the Father, John 10:167, 18; John 3:16. On the third day God raised Him from the dead, Acts 13:29- as now He sits at the right hand of God, Romans 8:34, until He returns on the last day as He will be exalted by all that are His own, Isaiah 40:3-5, Revelation 1:5-8.

 

[Sparkey]

PUMBA2 Please pardon the interruption. I have a friend who might be interested in a quick SKYPE session. It should be a similar service to what you've done for me. Create-a-Name. I'll let her describe the request but my part would be introduction.

Do you have an idea of what you might charge for such a thing. Maybe two each 5 minute SKYPE calls. The first to define the question, the 2nd to go over possible results and present choices, yes? I don't know. If you had a different business model in mind, that would be welcome also.

Basically, I'd look forward to hearing back about your "routine charges". I'll go over to your Profile page and follow you and you may feel free to start a "PM" private message conversation with me when it is convenient.

BRB with a couple quick links...