The 7 Deadly Sins Of The Christmas Tree

[Rick W]

Well, somebody had to do it. :P


Oh, I don't celebrate halloween

 

[Rick W]

Another diffrerence.
You can't hang bulbs on a pumpkin.

 

[Gabe]

One is green,tall and is associated with Christmas. The other is orange, short and fat and is associated with Halloween. :rolling

You mean these two? :D

[attachment=0:1rmmwea1]Christmas and Halloween.JPG[/attachment:1rmmwea1]

 

[Rick W]

The Christmas tree is no more an idol than the pumpkin or the four leaf clover. Or anything else associated with any other holiday.
We get this discussion every year but nobody says anything at all about other holiday icons. Not one word. Ever. Fireworks are fine, pumpkins are ok, shamrocks are acceptable, hearts for Valentine's day are no problem, the ball in Times Square is broadcast all over the world, nobody complains and the turkey is front and center during Thanksgiving.
But mention a Christmas tree and some folks can't criticize the tradition fast enough.

Again tabcom, I ask you. Do people worship/idolize these other icons of holiday events?

 

[Rick W]

One is green,tall and is associated with Christmas. The other is orange, short and fat and is associated with Halloween. :rolling

You mean these two? :D

:toofunny


ATTA BOY GAB!!!

 

[tabcom]

What you seem to be discussing is lust. I do not have "tree lust" if that is what you are concerned about.

Lust - Gr: epithumia - a longing for that which is forbidden

When Eve looked upon the tree she saw "all that is in the world". She was seduced by this devil's (daio) doctrine and began to "distribute fortunes" to herself and Adam. John tells us exactly about this doctrine of the devil which Satan distributes to evil men as he did to Eve in the garden.

I John 2:15,16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the father is not in him. For "all that is in the world", (everything that Eve saw in the tree, distributing to herself) - the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the father, but is of the world.

This is the "DEVIL'S DOCTRINE" that he has preached from the beginning.

"All that is in the world"

I John 2:16 Gen 3:6

1. The lust of the flesh ------- > 1. She saw a tree that was good for food (lust of flesh)

2. The lust of the eyes ------- > 2. The tree was pleasant to the eyes

3. The pride of life -------> 3. It was a tree to be desired

pride is the Greek word (chamad-delight alazonia which means "self in, covet, lust after) to esteem or self confidence make one wise (sakal -self- esteem, self-intelligence)

The word doctrine is the Greek word didache meaning "instruction". The devil's doctrine has always been the same. It says "cast God off the throne of your life"; you don't have to deny self in obedience to his word that says,

"forsake all you have -- take no thought for your life what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink: nor yet for your body what ye shall put on."

The "instruction (doctrine) of the devil" never changes. It is always "distributing fortunes" and bowing to the god of this world who blinds mens' minds to the truth, lest the light of the "glorious gospel" (not the false gospel) should shine unto them (II Cor 4:4).

Traditions are not bad in themselves . . .

The Jesus in the Bible, and I, couldn’t agree less.

Mr 7:8 -
"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

Mr 7:9 -
He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

Mr 7:13 -
{thus} invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."


Paul says about tradition . . .

Colossians 2:8 -- Beware lest any man spoil (seduce into captivity) you through philosophy (love of mans wisdom) and vain deceit (empty delusion), after the tradition (instruction) of men, after the rudiments (principles) of this world, and not after Christ.

The Christmas Festival was not celebrated in the church till the fourth century A.D.

2000 years before Jesus was born, the pagans celebrated a festival called the Saturnalia (feast of Saturn) in honor of the birth of the son (Saturn - Adonis - Hercules) of the Babylonian "Queen of Heaven" (Venus). This yearly revelry (drunken New Year feast) was a "birthday" to honor the "unconquerable sun", Saturn. Saturn was the fertility god among the pagans. The pagans assisted their fertility sun god in his promise to bring new crops in the spring by helping to warm the earth, putting a yule (fire-wheel, child of the sun) log on the fire and building large bon fires (Baal fires).

 

[tabcom]

I still want to know what the difference is between a Christmas tree and a Halloween pumpkin.

Metaphysically speaking, there is no difference.

Halloween is nothing more than the celtic version of the Saturnalia, which is Christmas.

In ancient times, Samhain formed the dividing day between years. It was a time that was neither in this year or the next. Bonfires were lit - often on the tops of hills. Samhain was:
bullet Seen as the beginning of the cold season. It is balanced by the corresponding seasonal day of celebration called Beltain (or Bealtaine, Beltaine, etc) which signals the start of summer, 6 months later. Both of these are fire festivals. The ancient Celts probably held them exactly mid-way between an equinox (when day and night were equal) and the following solstice (when the nighttime was shortest or longest). In ancient times, Samhain would probably have been centered between the Fall equinox and the Winter solstice, celebrated about NOV-5 to NOV-7.
bullet A time when the veil between this world and the next was at its thinnest. The Celts believed that upon death, everyone went to a beautiful place free of hunger, pain and disease. It was called "Tir nan Og", sometimes translated as "Summerland". They had no concept of Heaven and Hell like that seen in Christianity. Many believed that two separate and nearly identical worlds existed. When a person died, they were transferred to the "ghostworld"; when they were born, they were transferred from the ghostworld to the mortal one. "The pagan idea used to be that crucial joints between the seasons opened cracks in the fabric of space-time, allowing contact between the ghostworld and the mortal one." 2 The Celts celebrated rituals at this time to make contact with their ancestors who had died before them. This contact was not made in an atmosphere of dread, fearing some retribution from the dead. Rather it was done in a spirit of expectation, in the hopes of obtaining guidance from those in the next world. "The spirits of dead friends sought the warmth of the Samhain fire and communion with their living kin." 3
bullet A time when the veil between the present and the future was at its most transparent. Rituals were performed to foretell future events, through various methods of divination. The Celts believed that the future could be predicted most effectively at this time.
bullet A time when the herds of domesticated animals were brought down from their summer pasture and culled for the winter. The Celts slaughtered their weak animals that could not be expected to survive the winter. They reduced the size of the herds to match the available food supply.
bullet A time of uninhibited feasting.
bullet A time of increasing nervousness as the days continued to shorten and as winter approached. There were often questions whether the food would last until the next harvest.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hallo_np.htm

 

[cyberjosh]

The Jews established their own tradition and holiday called Purim after the Jews were saved from slaughter in Peria by Esther. The Jews were not wrong in observing this Holiday and it is likely that the feast mentioned in John 5:1 that Jesus went to was the feast of Purim. I'm not talking about traditions of men as dogma and religious observance (which was thought to be meritorious) as you are pointing out.

Please be careful before you judge others. You seem to think you know for a fact that I am breaking a law of God and violating His laws for sake of a tradition. I do no such thing. And if I as child of God (which I know I am) cannot detect nor heed a warning of the Holy Spirit when I am walking in blatant sin then I certainly am in trouble. I for my part am very conscientious and heed the Holy Spirit's leading when he reveals things to me. My conscience is clean on this issue and I know God is not judging me on this issue, so why should you?

"Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand" (Romans 14:4)


"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24)

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[tabcom]

I understand when someone first reads information contrary to their culturally generated norms, it can be viewed as judgmental. Although the implication may appear like I'm passing judgment upon those defenders of Christmas within this forum, that is not my intention. Let me explicitly state, my intention is to share information that I've accumulated over the years. It is also, in part, a testimony as to why I haven't done it since 2000.

 

[cyberjosh]

I do understand to an extent where you are coming from. But don't you think I've ever thought about this topic before? Long ago God delivered me from legalism concerning things that I always had asked: like why are the days of the week named after pagan Norse gods (should I then stop referring to them as Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc... since it might be acknowledging/accepting pagan influence?), why do we have Christmas trees when they were worshiped by pagans, why is Santa a cultural symbol (to some) when he is modeled on a legendary mixture St. Nicholas and the the Norse god Thor who had a sled pulled by goats, why is Christmas on December 25th when it's not likely that Jesus was born then?

What I learned a long time ago is that we are free to observe certain things as unto God and that we do not have to accept any pagan background or reasons for their initial observance. Although, as an aside, I will argue that the only use that Santa (not what this discussion is about, but...) can be of is to study the real Saint Nicholas and reject the extraneous pagan legends added afterward (although Santa has never been a part of our family's traditions), but I'm mostly talking about observing Christmas on the 25th and also integrating gift giving and even decorating trees. Also God's liberation he gave to me, as to this freedom of observance, delivered me from being in a sense the "weaker brother" (mentioned in Romans 14) who could not eat certain foods because of conscience, though the stronger brother realized that it was permissible in the freedom of Christ to eat those foods, and the same principle applies to conscientious observation of other matters as well.

I celebrate Christmas in December knowing full well that Christ almost certainly was not born that time of year, yet I choose to celebrate it then nonetheless, and I also choose to even celebrate it period (since it's not a command - but it is a Christian tradition of celebrating Christ's birth - though not necessarily the date). Santa, and trees, and presents are all extras and they are not at the heart of what Christmas is (as I already stated in another post), but what I'm saying is that we have freedom in Christ to give presents if we choose and to decorate a tree if we choose (knowing that we are under no obligation to do so) and also knowing that we are not "entitled" to presents and should not be selfish, and I hardly think you can give a single Biblical principle that can negate that freedom.

Also you seem to make the erroneous claim (forgive me if I misunderstood you) that all traditions are bad, since you replied that you did not agree when I said that not all traditions are bad of themselves. Well, I just gave you the Jewish example of Purim (Hannukah is another example of a traditional holiday), but let me give you an even more personal example and see what you think about traditions in that context as well:

My family is of Norwegian/Scandinavian descent and we have had some cultural foods from Norway passed down for generations that we cherish (because they taste so good ), and one in particular called Lefse (a dessert with soft floured/potato tortilla-looking shells with pure white sugar spread on butter on its inside) has become what is commonly called a family tradition that we prepare around both Thanksgiving and Christmas, and the whole family thoroughly enjoys it. My Mom also used to make Swedish meatballs. At any rate many families have family traditions like that, whether it be food, something they go and do every year, or whatever it may be. But are you going to tell me that any such tradition, and for our immediate purposes the example of our family tradition/recipie for cooking & eating Lefse is a sin? Do you see how legalistic such a claim can look?

Thanks for understanding.

Sincerely,

~Josh

 

[tabcom]

Josh:

That was perhaps the most thoughtful reply ever. And I've been talking about why I don't do Christmas since 2000. Thank you.

I'd like to share with you some of my thoughts with respect to a few things you stated in a follow-up post.

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh:

That was perhaps the most thoughtful reply ever. And I've been talking about why I don't do Christmas since 2000. Thank you.

I'd like to share with you some of my thoughts with respect to a few things you stated in a follow-up post.

Feel free to post your thoughts. You can also send me a Private Message (PM) if you want to.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Rick W]

2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

 

[francisdesales]

Josh:

That was perhaps the most thoughtful reply ever...

I agree. Josh's post was fabulous.

Regards

 

[MISFIT]

Another diffrerence.
You can't hang bulbs on a pumpkin.

A favorite movie of mine combines both holidays...

I Love 'em both but for very different reasons.

 

[Rick W]

Frankly I could care less what the ancient pagan did or didn't do. I know one thing for sure... they did not celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.

 

[Gabe]

Another diffrerence.
You can't hang bulbs on a pumpkin.

A favorite movie of mine combines both holidays...

I Love 'em both but for very different reasons.

That's also one of my favorate movies, Tim Burton's character designs are great!

 

[tabcom]

. . . are you going to tell me that any such tradition, and for our immediate purposes the example of our family tradition/recipie for cooking & eating Lefse is a sin?

Cooking and eating anything is not a sin.

It reminds me of when I was Catholic. When I gave something up for lent, I thought I was doing it as an act of self denial. In actuality, I was denying the object. What I'm trying to say is that Lefse in itself is not evil. It is the value placed on it that gets one in trouble with God.

 

[MISFIT]

Frankly I could care less what the ancient pagan did or didn't do. I know one thing for sure... they did not celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.

:amen :amen

 

[cyberjosh]

. . . are you going to tell me that any such tradition, and for our immediate purposes the example of our family tradition/recipie for cooking & eating Lefse is a sin?

Cooking and eating anything is not a sin.

It reminds me of when I was Catholic. When I gave something up for lent, I thought I was doing it as an act of self denial. In actuality, I was denying the object. What I'm trying to say is that Lefse in itself is not evil. It is the value placed on it that gets one in trouble with God.

Now here we can agree. All such things are to be done in moderation, and that truely is a matter of the heart between you and God. And as for me personally, I do not put too much value on the "niceties" of Christmas. As I said, it's not those extras that make it Christmas, it's loving Christ and loving others that makes the season what it is and what makes it even worth it to begin with. If love wasn't present in Christmas I'd drop it in a heartbeat.

God Bless,

~Josh