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The abomination of desolation

-----------Please pay close attention to the Wording of Christ in this Virgin Parable!--------------

Virgin denotes 'purity'. Man could be pure only 'IN' Christ. (Rom. 8:1- Acts 5:32) So we see that this purity was in the Virgin doctrinal teachings and is conditional. For man (or fold) could be in or out of Christ as they had freedom of will. The Wheat or Tare concept is not the subject seen here. We are finding the END result of James 1:15's 'Final Mature Decision being made!

Second we see that this is a 'Parable'. So it can be understood only with Christ's spiritual disclosure to us, or by His disclosure to the disciples that He has told us that He will do! Rom. 8:14 & *Mark 4:33-*34. Yet, it states that they were ALL SLEEPING!
Then, we can also understand that this is repeated history as the Word of God emphatically tells us! (see Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15)

We will cover this Parable with this truth in mind. Remember that we are living with this knowledge in full view and in the END TIME and with this being a well documented Truth of Christ's Word, at our fingertips. All are required to check out His Word until we get it right! (see Matt. 4:4)

In Matt 17:16-19 we see a Virgin Fold brought to view. Verse 16 Is Christ asking Peter .. "Whom do people say that I am?" And with this we can see who the Rock of the FOLD is built upon! (not Peter as 's'atan desires one to believe) But the thought needs to be understood that if it falters completely, or if it leaves the Truth of Christ's 'Everlasting Gospel, or Everlasting Covenant, it is no longer built upon Christ the Rock! (see Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20) In verse 18-19 of Matt. 16 we see Christ giving the 'keys' of the kingdom unto the Virgin Fold that is His church. And that it is they who shall bind or loose in heaven by binding or loosing the on earth. And in Luke 12:47-48 we can rest assured what will be their fate if they prove unfaithful! A whole Fold or Fold's'. See Rev. 1:5!

In this 'church denomination' of Matt. 16:13-19 lets build a little more on as seen over in Matt. 18:14-18. Then we will go back to the Virgin Parable of Matt. 25.
To be Christ's representative on earth (act in His stead) they must first be faithful! (see Rev. 2:5 & remember that Virgin Israel in 'doctrine' only had just been rejected)

Now in Matt. 18:17-18 we see it again stated:
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. ...

Pause! Remember that this is the new church. All of this had been done by Gods faithful, to Israel of olds now past Virgin Fold! They were now desolate of Christ! Matt. 23:38. They rejected Him & a new leader had now taken over. (compare Rev. 3:9) So this first part of these verses MUST be done & was & will always be done if the VIRGIN FOLD is to follow on with the Everlasting Gospel Plan. (or else as the earlier verses show, the whole fold will be rejected) Only a faithful denominational fold will have the keys of the kingdom! But let us continue on with the Masters Words.

...And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN: AND WHATSOEVER YE SHALL LOOSE ON EARTH SHALL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN." Do you believe the Masters Words! Will you accept His Written testimony? What Christ has said is that when one is accepted into the True Virgin Fold that He has established here on 'earth' by baptism, then their name is recorded in the Lamb's book of life in heavenly Zion's record book! And if one has his name removed because of open unrepentant sin, (after the person has fulfilled the obligation of the previous verses) it is then that the person is to be removed from the record books even in heaven itself! And if the 'fold' as a whole is not faithful? Then they too will be removed and Christ will again start fresh with ones that will love enough to be responsible. Rev. 2:5

Now back to Matt. 25 parable, & then on to 'some' of Matt. 10:5-38 for the meaning of Christ's.. "..when they were alone, He expounded all things to His disciples."

We see in verse 1 Christ comparing ... "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten Virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the Bridegroom." In Matt. 10:5-6 the disciples were to 'go forth' to the [lost sheep of the house of Israel]. Notice in verse 5 of Matt. 25? that they are ALL FAST ASLEEP. Remember that is was Christ, John, and the disciples that were [outside] of the yoked membership of Israel. (John even had converts) The only way that the Virgins of Matt. 25 could be saved was to go forth to meet the Bridegroom. (Christ) And we see that it was their Midnight CRY! AND WHO GAVE IT? AND WHERE DID IT COME FROM? Only these OUTSIDE ones were Awakened from the start. These ones were 'separated from the 'yoked membership'. (see Rev. 18:4 for comparison)
And ln verse 6 as for an end time repeated Truth..."Go ye out to meet Him." OUTSIDE! Again their 'fold' had become D-E-S-L-A-T-E of Christ, He was put out! Finally killed by His OWN!

Now comes another truth! (TWOFOLD) We see a 'closed door' in verse 10. Probation for Christ's Virgin fold or denomination finally had their probation CLOSED as a denomination! And we know what Christ now did, A new Fold was begun with the same Virgin Doctrines and with Him as 'their leader'. And the one that He was rejected by?? They made havoc with Christ and His followers in the new fold. And again, in Matt. 10:23 we see the exact same history being told for the last day Virgin Fold that is again repeating itself! (remember that it was Christ that was already there speaking) And some teach falsley that they are going to be raptured away! :screwloose

It might be well to mention that there was to be a 'MIDNIGHT CRY' to awaken the ALL sleeping Virgins of Israel. And the 5 wise did leave while the other half stayed put, these did not have enough 'oil in their vessels'! But make no mistake, it does give understanding that they did have some oil of Christ's Righteous Love. (see Rev. 3:16-17's sickening 'lukewarm' love) We often think that the 'Midnight' Cry was quick & an quickly responded to decision, but as Matt. 10:3-38 documents, it was a 'seven times' 27-34 AD Midnight Cry.

In 70 AD we know that Israel of old was 'ALL' slaughtered as a city & nation. (see Eze. 9 for the repeat) Yet, still inside the fallen desolate of Christ's rejected fold, there were still 'new born' babes that were immature as of yet, (see Matt. 23:15) these still had a chance to leave. Their 'door' of probation had not closed as of yet, they were given until 70 AD to leave! (see Matt. 24:14-20 .. take note that these ones were still to be 7th day Sabbath keepers!) Then comes what both Christ & Paul stated in the history repeat, that when Christ comes the 'second' time, that "He will cut it short in righteousness! This was the Loud Cry to them! The parallel is that of Rev. 14:6-10. The LOUD CRY is that of the Worlds Warning against taking the Mark of the Beast. Yet, as seen in Israel of old & again in today's setting, just as Virgin Israel of old was 'JUDGED FIRST' before the 'Loud Cry', so also were these seen in 1 Peter 4:17!

This is where you are at in the Present Day Truth! "And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, (ex/bride of Christ!) And desired [of him] letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." Just in closing let it be known that it is because ISRAEL is DESOLATE of CHRIST that they need the Power of Caesar to do 's'atans work. Rev. 3:3 :crying

--Elijah
 
GodspromisesRyes said:
lecoop said:
Of course this is true, when speaking OF THE CHURCH. But the Jews (Hebrews) living in Jerusalem during the 70th week have rejected Jesus as the Messiah, just as most of their ancestors have done since Jesus rose from the dead. They are NOT a part of the church. They are descendants of Jacob, but not a part of the body of Christ. Therefore you CANNOT use scriptures concerning the body of Christ as an argument. They are OUTSIDE the body of Christ. They will not believe Jesus is their Messiah until they SEE with their own eyes, the one they pierced.

God speaks to three different groups of people in end times scriptures: the church, the Jews (Hebrews) and the nations. If one mixes up who God is speaking to........well, it is one reason why we see SO MUCH disagreement here on this forum.

I suppose you all also want to find the church hidden somewhere in this verse?

Jeremiah 30:7
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

Will you say that God's plan is to utterly destroy the power of the church?

Dan 12:7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Can you come up with some logical (or scriptural) reason WHY God would desire to shatter, crush or break the power of the church?

Coop
Click to expand...
Yes, because it is given to the enemy to PERSECUTE.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, [many] days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] white, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed.

Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

I do not deny that God speaks to both US beleivers- and the unbelieving jews calling them jacob, when they are only of the flesh. But Believers of any flesh are ISRAEL- the CHURCH.

Now you say that in the tribulation the jews do not believe so they are not part of the church, and they wont believe until they SEE. You also say that the church is gone and has no part at all. The problem is a couple things. 1 there are NO HOLY PEOPLE outside of Christ Jesus. Only when a person believes are they Holy. 2 End time prophesy and revelation is FULL OF SAINTS who overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. Who are being persecuted by the beast, who are preaching the gospel to the ends of the earth, who are doing expoilts. Who are being martyred.- THESE MUST BE THE CHURCH, made of both jew and gentile because they are clearly shown to walk in the new covenant by faith by the blood of Christ.

THere is only ONE body of SAVED people.= ISRAEL_ THE CHURCH_ THE BODY OF CHRIST.

If one is a believer they MUST BE part of these people and if they are not of these people they are not holy, they do not overcome by his blood, they are not saints.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but God disagrees with you. They are "holy" on CREDIT. Their names are written in heaven ON CREDIT. As I said, those that flee into the wilderness are NOT YET SAVED. They still believe Jesus was an IMPOSTOR! They do not believe until they SEE Him. But, they love the Lord, just as Jews in the Old Covenant loved Him. Why is this so difficult for you to see? Read the gospels: there were MANY Jews that did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. This has stayed true for the entire church age: they have great faith in God, but do not beleive thier Messiah has come. Have you ever watched them praying at the wailing wall? Have you not witnessed to a Jew? I mean, one that loves God?

The verses you quoted in Daniel are talking about the days of Antiochus Epiphanes. Jesus had not come then. Why would you even think to use Old Testament scriptures when we are speaking of the church?

Did you forget that God said it is NOT HIS PURPOSE that we be here for His wrath? We have no appointment. And please find ONE VERSE that would even HINT that God would WANT His church to be persecuted and many put to death. What kind of a God do you think He is? Would you submit YOUR children to such a thing, if you could prevent it?

By the way, God DID call people under the old covenant "holy."

Coop
 
lecoop said:
Sorry, but God disagrees with you. They are "holy" on CREDIT. Their names are written in heaven ON CREDIT. As I said, those that flee into the wilderness are NOT YET SAVED. They still believe Jesus was an IMPOSTOR! They do not believe until they SEE Him. But, they love the Lord, just as Jews in the Old Covenant loved Him. Why is this so difficult for you to see? Read the gospels: there were MANY Jews that did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. This has stayed true for the entire church age: they have great faith in God, but do not beleive thier Messiah has come. Have you ever watched them praying at the wailing wall? Have you not witnessed to a Jew? I mean, one that loves God?

The verses you quoted in Daniel are talking about the days of Antiochus Epiphanes. Jesus had not come then. Why would you even think to use Old Testament scriptures when we are speaking of the church?

Did you forget that God said it is NOT HIS PURPOSE that we be here for His wrath? We have no appointment. And please find ONE VERSE that would even HINT that God would WANT His church to be persecuted and many put to death. What kind of a God do you think He is? Would you submit YOUR children to such a thing, if you could prevent it?

By the way, God DID call people under the old covenant "holy."

Coop
Click to expand...

I can see now where so much of you rtrouble is coming from. Firstly you said those who flee into the widlerness DO NOT YET BELIVE. but the scriptures disagree iwth you


Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.


Rev 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Rev 12:13 ¶ And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].


Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.


Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These overcome by the blood of the lamb and it is HER seed that keeps the commandments of GOd AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Secondly it is not true that unbelieving jews have " great faith" and Love God". Paul says they have a zeal for God yes, But john shows clearly that you CANNOT have the Father without the son. You cannot love God and not love Jesus Christ, and you cannot walk in fiath of God apart from Jesus Christ.- Yes more and more, a remnant of them will be saved and they cill come to faith- without seeing and be added back to the vine grafted and united with US. But these in the widlerness and who the dragon is after have the testimony of Jesus.

Why would I use OT scriptures to speak of the church? Because God does and the NT is FULL OF OT quotes talking about the church.

But your last questions show forth alot. You do not believe that God calls us to be persecuted and many killed but that is exactly what we are called to. Our persecutuion is not the wrath of God.

Mat 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

1Cr 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

2Cr 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.

1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.


Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


WE are called to be hated for his name, to be persecuted to be marytred to lay down our lifves and pick up our crosses. This is the hisotry of the whole church.
 
GodspromisesRyes said:
lecoop said:
Sorry, but God disagrees with you. They are "holy" on CREDIT. Their names are written in heaven ON CREDIT. As I said, those that flee into the wilderness are NOT YET SAVED. They still believe Jesus was an IMPOSTOR! They do not believe until they SEE Him. But, they love the Lord, just as Jews in the Old Covenant loved Him. Why is this so difficult for you to see? Read the gospels: there were MANY Jews that did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. This has stayed true for the entire church age: they have great faith in God, but do not beleive thier Messiah has come. Have you ever watched them praying at the wailing wall? Have you not witnessed to a Jew? I mean, one that loves God?

The verses you quoted in Daniel are talking about the days of Antiochus Epiphanes. Jesus had not come then. Why would you even think to use Old Testament scriptures when we are speaking of the church?

Did you forget that God said it is NOT HIS PURPOSE that we be here for His wrath? We have no appointment. And please find ONE VERSE that would even HINT that God would WANT His church to be persecuted and many put to death. What kind of a God do you think He is? Would you submit YOUR children to such a thing, if you could prevent it?

By the way, God DID call people under the old covenant "holy."

Coop
Click to expand...

I can see now where . Firstly you said those who flee into the widlerness DO NOT YET BELIVE. but the scriptures disagree iwth you


Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.


Rev 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Rev 12:13 ¶ And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].


Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.


Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These overcome by the blood of the lamb and it is HER seed that keeps the commandments of GOd AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Secondly it is not true that unbelieving jews have " great faith" and Love God". Paul says they have a zeal for God yes, But john shows clearly that you CANNOT have the Father without the son. You cannot love God and not love Jesus Christ, and you cannot walk in fiath of God apart from Jesus Christ.- Yes more and more, a remnant of them will be saved and they cill come to faith- without seeing and be added back to the vine grafted and united with US. But these in the widlerness and who the dragon is after have the testimony of Jesus.

Why would I use OT scriptures to speak of the church? Because God does and the NT is FULL OF OT quotes talking about the church.

But your last questions show forth alot. You do not believe that God calls us to be persecuted and many killed but that is exactly what we are called to. Our persecutuion is not the wrath of God.

Mat 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

1Cr 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

2Cr 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.

1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.


Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


WE are called to be hated for his name, to be persecuted to be marytred to lay down our lifves and pick up our crosses. This is the hisotry of the whole church.
Click to expand...


What on earth were you trying to prove? OF COURSE they believe they must RUN. But they do NOT believe Jesus is their Messiah, not until they SEE the one they pierced.

John 19:37
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.


Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


If they were already BORN AGAIN - they would KNOW Jesus was their Messiah. That knowledge would have to come BEFORE they got born again. But the truth is, they are JEWS (Hebrews) that MISSED their own Messiah, and did not believe Jesus was the one.

By the way, you are mistaken here: "so much of you rtrouble is coming from..."

You THINK I have trouble because or your preconceived glasses and theories.

Coop
 
GodspromisesRyes said:
Secondly it is not true that unbelieving jews have " great faith" and Love God". Paul says they have a zeal for God yes, But john shows clearly that you CANNOT have the Father without the son. You cannot love God and not love Jesus Christ, and you cannot walk in fiath of God apart from Jesus Christ.- Yes more and more, a remnant of them will be saved and they cill come to faith- without seeing and be added back to the vine grafted and united with US. But these in the widlerness and who the dragon is after have the testimony of Jesus.

Why would I use OT scriptures to speak of the church? Because God does and the NT is FULL OF OT quotes talking about the church.

But your last questions show forth alot. You do not believe that God calls us to be persecuted and many killed but that is exactly what we are called to. Our persecutuion is not the wrath of God.

Mat 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

1Cr 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

2Cr 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.

1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.


Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


WE are called to be hated for his name, to be persecuted to be marytred to lay down our lifves and pick up our crosses. This is the hisotry of the whole church.
Click to expand...

You are very mistaken: Did the Old Testament saints love God BEFORE Jesus came? Do you DENY that they loved God? What is the first and greatest commandment under the Old Covenant?

Matt 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.

Are you saying that this first and greatest commandment was IMPOSSIBLE for them before Jesus came?

You are simply mistaken. The truth is - no one could be BORN AGAIN before Jesus came. But they certainly loved God. Are you saying that Mary did not love God?

You MISSED IT AGAIN!!

Rev 12
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

WHO is the "they" in question? It is NOT the "woman!" John CHANGED THE SUBJECT. The "they" refers back to "our brethren," who are accused day and night.

You do not believe that God calls us to be persecuted and many killed but that is exactly what we are called to.
Click to expand...

And you MISSED IT yet again!! Why can you not believe plain scripture?

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The ONLY members of God's church today that will NOT escape all these things, are those that REFUSE to believe in a pre-trib rapture, and therefore are NOT looking for Him.

Did you not read?

Heb:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If you are not looking for His coming, I doubt you will even hear the trumpet. You will be left behind. And, you will get exactly what you are believing.

And again you do not understand God's wrath: if anyone is on the earth DURING God's wrath, it is only because they were not born again, OR did not have faith in the pretrib rapture, and so were not looking for His coming. If you understood John's chronology, you would know that Satan's wrath and God's wrath are happening AT THE SAME TIME. The days of great tribulation are at its peak, when God pours out the first vial of His wrath.

Of course we are persecuted; of course we are in tribulation; but we are NOT called to partake of the Day of the Lord, or the 70th week of Daniel. God snatches us OUT just before the day of the Lord and 70th week begins. Please, read Rev 6 & 7 carefully.

Coop
 
lecoop said:
What on earth were you trying to prove? OF COURSE they believe they must RUN. But they do NOT believe Jesus is their Messiah, not until they SEE the one they pierced.

John 19:37
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.


Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


If they were already BORN AGAIN - they would KNOW Jesus was their Messiah. That knowledge would have to come BEFORE they got born again. But the truth is, they are JEWS (Hebrews) that MISSED their own Messiah, and did not believe Jesus was the one.

By the way, you are mistaken here: "so much of you rtrouble is coming from..."

You THINK I have trouble because or your preconceived glasses and theories.

Coop
Click to expand...
you said "What on earth were you trying to prove? OF COURSE they believe they must RUN. But they do NOT believe Jesus is their Messiah, not until they SEE the one they pierced.

John 19:37
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

You missed that THIS PROPHESY WAS ALREADY FULFILLED.

Jhn 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Jhn 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.


Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


This also already happened. The SPirit of grace was poured out on the house of david and the inhabitants of jersualem AT PENTECOST!

Those who were of the election were and still are born again. The rest are not and only a remnant of them will be and it will not be when they see him coming in the clouds- there is no salvation then. They must believe NOW or by the end. There is no salvation but by faith.Yes many of the jews believed not the Lord, and most never will- only a remnant and they will be grafted back in TO US and ALL saints who ever lived into the ONE BODY.
 
lecoop said:
You are very mistaken: Did the Old Testament saints love God BEFORE Jesus came? Do you DENY that they loved God? What is the first and greatest commandment under the Old Covenant?

Matt 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.

Are you saying that this first and greatest commandment was IMPOSSIBLE for them before Jesus came?

You are simply mistaken. The truth is - no one could be BORN AGAIN before Jesus came. But they certainly loved God. Are you saying that Mary did not love God?

You MISSED IT AGAIN!!

Rev 12
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

WHO is the "they" in question? It is NOT the "woman!" John CHANGED THE SUBJECT. The "they" refers back to "our brethren," who are accused day and night.

You do not believe that God calls us to be persecuted and many killed but that is exactly what we are called to.
Click to expand...

And you MISSED IT yet again!! Why can you not believe plain scripture?

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The ONLY members of God's church today that will NOT escape all these things, are those that REFUSE to believe in a pre-trib rapture, and therefore are NOT looking for Him.

Did you not read?

Heb:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If you are not looking for His coming, I doubt you will even hear the trumpet. You will be left behind. And, you will get exactly what you are believing.

And again you do not understand God's wrath: if anyone is on the earth DURING God's wrath, it is only because they were not born again, OR did not have faith in the pretrib rapture, and so were not looking for His coming. If you understood John's chronology, you would know that Satan's wrath and God's wrath are happening AT THE SAME TIME. The days of great tribulation are at its peak, when God pours out the first vial of His wrath.

Of course we are persecuted; of course we are in tribulation; but we are NOT called to partake of the Day of the Lord, or the 70th week of Daniel. God snatches us OUT just before the day of the Lord and 70th week begins. Please, read Rev 6 & 7 carefully.

Coop
Click to expand...
"You are very mistaken: Did the Old Testament saints love God BEFORE Jesus came? Do you DENY that they loved God? What is the first and greatest commandment under the Old Covenant?"

The OT saints LOVED JESUS their messiah they just did not know his name but they walked and lived in faith of Him. David called him " my Lord " and " my God" to think that they did not believe in their coming messiah is totally unscriptural. They knew a redeemer was coming. ANd they loved him.- The jews who do not yet believe or who never will believe do not love him- they hear of him and hate him, they have no faith in the word preached to them BUT the elect amoung them whom God chose with us before the foundation of the world hear and believe and are saved.-Mary loved God and she loved Jesus. Do you know that the NT says that the gospel was preached to the jews in the wilderness but it did not prophet them becasue it was not mixed with faith? All the OT SAINTS BELIEVED the GOSPEL! they loved their Lord- but all israel did not and many died outside of faith just as they do today.


The problem with the rest of what you are saying is that you are believing that the tribulation is the day of the Lord the time of Gods wrath but that is not at all true. The Day of the Lord- which is the wrath of God that we are not appointed to does not hapen until AFTER the tribulation is over.WE are called to be hated, persecuted, take up our crosses. we are " killed all the day long" paul said. Persecution upon us is US BEING BLESSED TO PARAKE OF THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST.

Godswrath does not happen until the vials ansd is after the tribulation. No seals or trumpets are Gods wrath at all.We can only be accurate if we see what God calls HIS WRATH and what he does not. If we decide we think something is His wrath but HE does not call it such then we are making up our own doctrines.
 
GodspromisesRyes said:
lecoop said:
What on earth were you trying to prove? OF COURSE they believe they must RUN. But they do NOT believe Jesus is their Messiah, not until they SEE the one they pierced.

John 19:37
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.


Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


If they were already BORN AGAIN - they would KNOW Jesus was their Messiah. That knowledge would have to come BEFORE they got born again. But the truth is, they are JEWS (Hebrews) that MISSED their own Messiah, and did not believe Jesus was the one.

By the way, you are mistaken here: "so much of you rtrouble is coming from..."

You THINK I have trouble because or your preconceived glasses and theories.

Coop
Click to expand...
you said "What on earth were you trying to prove? OF COURSE they believe they must RUN. But they do NOT believe Jesus is their Messiah, not until they SEE the one they pierced.

John 19:37
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

You missed that THIS PROPHESY WAS ALREADY FULFILLED.

Jhn 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Jhn 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.


Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


This also already happened. The SPirit of grace was poured out on the house of david and the inhabitants of jersualem AT PENTECOST!

Those who were of the election were and still are born again. The rest are not and only a remnant of them will be and it will not be when they see him coming in the clouds- there is no salvation then. They must believe NOW or by the end. There is no salvation but by faith.Yes many of the jews believed not the Lord, and most never will- only a remnant and they will be grafted back in TO US and ALL saints who ever lived into the ONE BODY.
Click to expand...

We have other examples of Old Testament prophecies being out of chronological order. But before I show one, let's example Zec 12 a little more closely:

3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Note, "all the people of the earth...." This is speaking of Armageddon.

8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

This verse seems to be AFTER the battle, into the millennium.

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Back to the battle of Armegeddon again.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

WHEN is this? I think it is in the Millennium!

11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Did this happen at Pentecost? I hardly think so.

Now, let's look at Peter's sermon:

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It seems Peter was not as wise as Jesus as to when to STOP with an Old Testament prophecy: yes, the Holy Spirit was poured out that day, but the wonders and signs in heaven are STILL in our future.

REv 11:1
...Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

What is going on here in the temple? Are they worshipping Jesus? Ha! Hardly! They are worshipping God. At this time they still reject their Messiah.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

These are people that have just seen the abmination. Although Jews do not believe Jesus was their messiah, they STILL read the New Testament. Kids are TAUGHT from the New Testament in school in Israel. They believe what is written enought, when the SEE what Jesus was talking about, they FLEE. But are they born again? You would have to stretch the scripture hard to attempt to prove it. They are JEWS. There may be some Christian Jews living in Judea today, but THEY WILL GO UP in the rapture about 3 1/2 years before this. (See again the huge crowd too large to number in chapter 7.)

Notice how John shows us a difference:

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


There are TWO groups here; the woman, being Hebrews or Jews, and then there are the "remnant of her seed? What or who would be a of the seed of Israel? Well, first Jesus, but then those that believe in Him, and John goes on to say, they have the testimony of Jesus.

Why did John say "remnant of her seed?" These are born again people, so why a "remnant? It is very simple, go back and read chapter 7 again, the great crowd too large to number; it is a remnant because the MAIN LOAD was taken out 3 1/2 years before this date. Therefore, the "woman" are Israel who at this time deny the Christ, the Son of God.

Dan 12
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

ONLY Jews will be doing a daily sacrifice. Certainly NOT Christians.

Coop
 
Coop

Sorry, but God disagrees with you. They are "holy" on CREDIT. Their names are written in heaven ON CREDIT. As I said, those that flee into the wilderness are NOT YET SAVED. They still believe Jesus was an IMPOSTOR! They do not believe until they SEE Him. But, they love the Lord, just as Jews in the Old Covenant loved Him. Why is this so difficult for you to see? Read the gospels: there were MANY Jews that did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. This has stayed true for the entire church age: they have great faith in God, but do not beleive thier Messiah has come. Have you ever watched them praying at the wailing wall? Have you not witnessed to a Jew? I mean, one that loves God?
Click to expand...

There is no such thing as credit,you either believe Christ died for you and rose again and is now at the right hand of the Father,or you don't.The only way one can believe now is through faith,too wait until you see Him will be to late...they don't know Him because they are not of Him....(not all)

You cannot seperate Israel from the Church,as we are all one in Christ

This false dichotomy of the Israel versus the church gives rise to all kinds of strange and divers end-times schemes. These people (dispensationalists) say that the church will live in heaven with Christ and that Israel will rule on the earth in fulfillment of the promises made to Abraham. Notice here that they even keep Israel and the church separate in the world to come. But do the scriptures keep Israel and the church separate? No. A thousand times, no. The scriptures say that Christ came to make Jew and Gentile ONE body. Let us go to the witness stand--

Witness #1: Ephesians 2:11-22, Jews and Gentiles are One in Christ

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;[there is no separation]

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain ONE new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are NO MORE STRANGERS AND FOREIGNERS, BUT FELLOWCITIZENS with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [as a Gentile believer even the prophets are mine through the blood of Jesus--Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, all of them!]

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. [All believers, Jew or Gentile, are ONE building.]

Witness #2: Ephesians 3:3, 5-6, We are the Same Body

3 ...by revelation he made known unto me the mystery...

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be FELLOWHEIRS, and of THE SAME BODY, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Witness #3: Romans 4:9-17, We have the SAME Father--Abraham

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of ALL them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. [Abraham is not just the father of the Jewish people. He is my father too. We are only ONE family in father Abraham.]

THE "RAPTURE"

Dispensationalist-type people believe that there will be a "pre-tribulation rapture"--

they believe that before the beast (1) takes over (2) makes war on the saints, and (3) requires his mark on each person's body, that all Christians will be "raptured" (rapture is not a Bible word).
The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. It teaches tribulation. Because these people believe that they will not partake in tribulation, they are not spiritually or physically preparing themselves, or their children, for what is to come--yea, already IS. They cannot see what is happening before their very eyes. They are so strengthened in deception that they cannot see nor hear. Not only are they deceived, they condemn any one who does not believe in a pretribulation rapture.

CONCLUSION

The book of Romans teaches that God has not forgotten nor cast away Israel--his people which he foreknew--but they have to be saved by the blood of Jesus like anyone else and they have to obey the scriptures like anyone else. We are now one family--the Israel of God.

The Bible teaches that there is a dichotomy between the Jew's religion and the church of God--the Jew's religion is a false religion, NOT the counterpart of the gospel. Paul was a Jewish man, in the Jewish religion. He left the Jews' religion and came into the church of God--

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Us sinners of the Gentiles, leave the ways of the heathen Gentiles and come into the church of God.

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye WERE Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
First Corinthians 10:32 shows the three groups:

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
The LORD our God is one Lord. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is unity in our faith. I wish I could get an "Amen."

http://www.biblicalscholarship.net/israelvs.htm
Click to expand...


Question When those Jews that die and have died without believing upon Christ,are they automatically saved when they see Him???
 
onelove said:
Coop

Sorry, but God disagrees with you. They are "holy" on CREDIT. Their names are written in heaven ON CREDIT. As I said, those that flee into the wilderness are NOT YET SAVED. They still believe Jesus was an IMPOSTOR! They do not believe until they SEE Him. But, they love the Lord, just as Jews in the Old Covenant loved Him. Why is this so difficult for you to see? Read the gospels: there were MANY Jews that did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. This has stayed true for the entire church age: they have great faith in God, but do not beleive thier Messiah has come. Have you ever watched them praying at the wailing wall? Have you not witnessed to a Jew? I mean, one that loves God?
Click to expand...

There is no such thing as credit,you either believe Christ died for you and rose again and is now at the right hand of the Father,or you don't.The only way one can believe now is through faith,too wait until you see Him will be to late...they don't know Him because they are not of Him....(not all)

You cannot seperate Israel from the Church,as we are all one in Christ
Click to expand...

Of course you are right - for those IN CHRIST. But sorry, I was speaking of Jews (Hebrews that do NOT believe in Christ. Twist the scriptures as you might, but you CANNOT get them born again and a part of the body of Christ. They are JEWS of the Old Covenant. Please note that their daily sacrifices will be STOPPED. That means they were STARTED. Members of the body of Christ have NO NEED to hold animal sacrifices. About credit? God had ALL the SAINTS in the Old Covenant saved on Credit - they HAD TO WAIT in paradise until Jesus rose from the dead, and conquered the grave. Then, Jesus took them to heaven.

This false dichotomy of the Israel versus the church gives rise to all kinds of strange and divers end-times schemes. These people (dispensationalists) say that the church will live in heaven with Christ and that Israel will rule on the earth in fulfillment of the promises made to Abraham. Notice here that they even keep Israel and the church separate in the world to come. But do the scriptures keep Israel and the church separate? No. A thousand times, no. The scriptures say that Christ came to make Jew and Gentile ONE body. Let us go to the witness stand--

Witness #1: Ephesians 2:11-22, Jews and Gentiles are One in Christ

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;[there is no separation]

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain ONE new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are NO MORE STRANGERS AND FOREIGNERS, BUT FELLOWCITIZENS with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [as a Gentile believer even the prophets are mine through the blood of Jesus--Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, all of them!]

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. [All believers, Jew or Gentile, are ONE building.]

Witness #2: Ephesians 3:3, 5-6, We are the Same Body

3 ...by revelation he made known unto me the mystery...

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be FELLOWHEIRS, and of THE SAME BODY, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Witness #3: Romans 4:9-17, We have the SAME Father--Abraham

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of ALL them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. [Abraham is not just the father of the Jewish people. He is my father too. We are only ONE family in father Abraham.]
Click to expand...

All these verses are speaking of BORN AGAIN people. I was speaking of those that DENY CHRIST as their Messiah. Sorry, they are STILL Jews (Hebrews.) You cannot, by waving a verse before them, make them born again. God must SHATTER (totally destroy) their power and then SHOW them His piercings before they will believe.

THE "RAPTURE"

Dispensationalist-type people believe that there will be a "pre-tribulation rapture"--

they believe that before the beast (1) takes over (2) makes war on the saints, and (3) requires his mark on each person's body, that all Christians will be "raptured" (rapture is not a Bible word).
The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. It teaches tribulation. Because these people believe that they will not partake in tribulation, they are not spiritually or physically preparing themselves, or their children, for what is to come--yea, already IS. They cannot see what is happening before their very eyes. They are so strengthened in deception that they cannot see nor hear. Not only are they deceived, they condemn any one who does not believe in a pretribulation rapture.
Click to expand...

For the readers, this - of course -is only man's theories and has NO SCRIPTURAL backing. OF COURSE the rapture is found in scriptures. But preconceived ideas has blinded many to the truth. Paul makes it very plain that we have no appointment with wrath. The scriptures tell us we can ESCAPE these things. Paul writes, "...and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hebrews 9:28) Clearly this CANNOT be the same "coming" where "every eye" will see Him. No, this is the coming for the rapture, where He comes only to the air.

Next, John CLEARLY shows us the crowd without number (the church) around the throne in heaven, in REv. 7, BEFORE the 70th week even begins.


CONCLUSION

The book of Romans teaches that God has not forgotten nor cast away Israel--his people which he foreknew--but they have to be saved by the blood of Jesus like anyone else and they have to obey the scriptures like anyone else. We are now one family--the Israel of God.

Of course they do - IF they are to become a part of the church. But they become a part of the Millennial kingdom, NOT the church.

The Bible teaches that there is a dichotomy between the Jew's religion and the church of God--the Jew's religion is a false religion, NOT the counterpart of the gospel. Paul was a Jewish man, in the Jewish religion. He left the Jews' religion and came into the church of God--

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Us sinners of the Gentiles, leave the ways of the heathen Gentiles and come into the church of God.

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye WERE Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
First Corinthians 10:32 shows the three groups:

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
The LORD our God is one Lord. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is unity in our faith. I wish I could get an "Amen."

http://www.biblicalscholarship.net/israelvs.htm


Question When those Jews that die and have died without believing upon Christ,are they automatically saved when they see Him???
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Ha! You must be joking. Why should they be any different than a Gentile that dies without Christ? But the remnant that is saved, does not die: they enter the millennial kingdom.

Coop
 
Ha! You must be joking. Why should they be any different than a Gentile that dies without Christ? But the remnant that is saved, does not die: they enter the millennial kingdom.

Coop
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Quick question,will respond to the rest of your post later.Are you somehow implying that a Jew cannot be saved now?Or,that there are no Christian Jews? God's chosen children(if you must)in these endtimes,are those that will not bend a knee to the beast.

Are you joking,why should they be any different from a Gentile that lives with Christ now.You can't have it both ways,you are either with Christ,or against Him!!
 
lecoop said:
We have other examples of Old Testament prophecies being out of chronological order. But before I show one, let's example Zec 12 a little more closely:

3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Note, "all the people of the earth...." This is speaking of Armageddon.

8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

This verse seems to be AFTER the battle, into the millennium.

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Back to the battle of Armegeddon again.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

WHEN is this? I think it is in the Millennium!

11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Did this happen at Pentecost? I hardly think so.

Now, let's look at Peter's sermon:

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It seems Peter was not as wise as Jesus as to when to STOP with an Old Testament prophecy: yes, the Holy Spirit was poured out thIt seems Peter was not as wise as Jesus as to when to STOP with an Old Testament prophecy: yes, the Holy Spirit was poured out that day, but the wonders and signs in heaven are STILL in our future.at day, but the wonders and signs in heaven are STILL in our future.

REv 11:1
...Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

What is going on here in the temple? Are they worshipping Jesus? Ha! Hardly! They are worshipping God. At this time they still reject their Messiah.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

These are people that have just seen the abmination. Although Jews do not believe Jesus was their messiah, they STILL read the New Testament. Kids are TAUGHT from the New Testament in school in Israel. They believe what is written enought, when the SEE what Jesus was talking about, they FLEE. But are they born again? You would have to stretch the scripture hard to attempt to prove it. They are JEWS. There may be some Christian Jews living in Judea today, but THEY WILL GO UP in the rapture about 3 1/2 years before this. (See again the huge crowd too large to number in chapter 7.)

Notice how John shows us a difference:

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


There are TWO groups here; the woman, being Hebrews or Jews, and then there are the "remnant of her seed? What or who would be a of the seed of Israel? Well, first Jesus, but then those that believe in Him, and John goes on to say, they have the testimony of Jesus.

Why did John say "remnant of her seed?" These are born again people, so why a "remnant? It is very simple, go back and read chapter 7 again, the great crowd too large to number; it is a remnant because the MAIN LOAD was taken out 3 1/2 years before this date. Therefore, the "woman" are Israel who at this time deny the Christ, the Son of God.

Dan 12
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

ONLY Jews will be doing a daily sacrifice. Certainly NOT Christians.

Coop
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First you do a good job of showing how prophesy can be out of order and skip and go back etc.. this is what revelation does also. but then you say this:
"10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.[/color]

WHEN is this? I think it is in the Millennium!"

The big problem here is that john says this scripture was fulfilled! You can ignore that, but the word of God declears it is .
Jhn 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Jhn 19:35 And he that saw [it] bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
Jhn 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Jhn 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

See John talks aobut him being pierced then says " these things were done that the scriptures would be fulfilled".." and again they would look upon him whom they pierced.

Now I agree that there is a remnant of jews being saved, and who will be saved but the doctrine that they will remain in unbelief(the remnant) until His coming and THEN be saved is not scriptural and it is a false gospel.The word of God clearly shows as well as the gospel that they will have to be saved by faith before His coming because at his coming all who are not His already will be destroyed.You may not realize it but with this preaching that the jews will not believe until they see him at his second coming and then they will be saved is another gospel.

Then you say"10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.[/color]

WHEN is this? I think it is in the Millennium!"

The spirit of grace was poured out on the inabitants of jeruslaem and the house of david at pentecost.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 ¶ And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

then you said
"It seems Peter was not as wise as Jesus as to when to STOP with an Old Testament prophecy: yes, the Holy Spirit was poured out that day, but the wonders and signs in heaven are STILL in our future."

I find it DANGEROUS to say such things. Peter stands up FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST and preaches in the power of the Spirit and you say PETER wasnt wise enough to only speak part? As if it was not by the Holy Ghost that He spoke perfectly? yikes.

"REv 11:1
...Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

What is going on here in the temple? Are they worshipping Jesus? Ha! Hardly! They are worshipping God. At this time they still reject their Messiah."

Why do you resist believing the NT? Do you not know that paul witnessed to us 6 times that WE are the temple of God and WE worship God in Spirit and truth as Jesus said? That peter likewise said that we are the temple built of lively stones? That luke shared in acts how God will never again dwell in a temple made with hands? If we want to understand the word of God we must intepret the word by the word and the NT revelation is that only th ose with the SPirit of God are the temple of God. tradition has clouded the truth that is clearly revealed in the scriptures. WE are the temple of God.WE worship God in Spirit and truth. WE have an altar.


"Dan 12
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

ONLY Jews will be doing a daily sacrifice. Certainly NOT Christians."

Please hear the word of the Lord.It is US who have the only daily sacrifice.

Rom 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

WE are a living sacrifice.
1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Phl 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.

Phl 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.


Hbr 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.


You see WE are to die daily- taking up our crosses daily and that is a daily living sacrifice to God- we do this in our bodies- THE TEMPLE OF GOD in Spirit and truth. We give praises to God in this which is a pleasent sacrifice to God.

We have an altar
Hbr 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.


Hbr 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.


I have skipped the middle part of your post for now because these doctrines are more important then perfectly understanding prophesy because they are very important to our walks with Christ.
 
The people perish for lack of knowledge.

The history of religion proves the abomination of desolation is the "asherah", the so-called "Queen of Heaven", aka God's wife, research it. The reason why a grove wasn't to be planted near God's temple and the reason why Gideon destroyed his father's grove. Research it. :study
 
precepts said:
The people perish for lack of knowledge.

The history of religion proves the abomination of desolation is the "asherah", the so-called "Queen of Heaven", aka God's wife, research it. The reason why a grove wasn't to be planted near God's temple and the reason why Gideon destroyed his father's grove. Research it. :study
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Uh oh!

[attachment=0:2o9ebccv]canworms.jpg[/attachment:2o9ebccv]

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 2&letter=A
 
onelove said:
Ha! You must be joking. Why should they be any different than a Gentile that dies without Christ? But the remnant that is saved, does not die: they enter the millennial kingdom.

Coop
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Quick question,will respond to the rest of your post later.Are you somehow implying that a Jew cannot be saved now?Or,that there are no Christian Jews? God's chosen children(if you must)in these endtimes,are those that will not bend a knee to the beast.

Are you joking,why should they be any different from a Gentile that lives with Christ now.You can't have it both ways,you are either with Christ,or against Him!!
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No, of course not. ANY Jew can be saved IF they believe in Jesus. But the fact, most are SO INTENT on believing their Old Covenant, they cannot even think about Jesus. Thank God, some have believed. But over the centuries, I fear most have ended up in hell. Right; they are against Him, yet He will still bring 1/3 through the fire.

Now, I have a question for you. Suppose it is 33 or 34 AD and Jesus has just risen from the dead.
Suppose there are some OLD Jews that loved God with all their heart, but a part of the diaspora - perhaps they were living in Iran. Their ancestors had not returned from the Assyrian captivity. Or perhaps living in Iraq and had not returned from the Babylonian captivity. They have no earthly idea that their Messiah has come; they know NOTHING of Jesus. But they are righteous as far as the law in concerned. Suppose they die before they ever hear of Jesus. Perhaps some died the day after Jesus rose from the dead.

ARE THEY GOING TO END UP IN HELL, BECAUSE THEY NEVER HEARD?

Personally, I am glad it is God that makes this decision.

Coop
 
lecoop said:
onelove said:
Ha! You must be joking. Why should they be any different than a Gentile that dies without Christ? But the remnant that is saved, does not die: they enter the millennial kingdom.

Coop
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Quick question,will respond to the rest of your post later.Are you somehow implying that a Jew cannot be saved now?Or,that there are no Christian Jews? God's chosen children(if you must)in these endtimes,are those that will not bend a knee to the beast.

Are you joking,why should they be any different from a Gentile that lives with Christ now.You can't have it both ways,you are either with Christ,or against Him!!
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No, of course not. ANY Jew can be saved IF they believe in Jesus. But the fact, most are SO INTENT on believing their Old Covenant, they cannot even think about Jesus. Thank God, some have believed. But over the centuries, I fear most have ended up in hell. Right; they are against Him, yet He will still bring 1/3 through the fire.

Now, I have a question for you. Suppose it is 33 or 34 AD and Jesus has just risen from the dead.
Suppose there are some OLD Jews that loved God with all their heart, but a part of the diaspora - perhaps they were living in Iran. Their ancestors had not returned from the Assyrian captivity. Or perhaps living in Iraq and had not returned from the Babylonian captivity. They have no earthly idea that their Messiah has come; they know NOTHING of Jesus. But they are righteous as far as the law in concerned. Suppose they die before they ever hear of Jesus. Perhaps some died the day after Jesus rose from the dead.

ARE THEY GOING TO END UP IN HELL, BECAUSE THEY NEVER HEARD?

Personally, I am glad it is God that makes this decision.

Coop
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You cannot seperate Jew's from Gentiles,period!!..Is anybody,Jew or Gentile going to hell because they never heard?
 
onelove said:
lecoop said:
onelove said:
Quick question,will respond to the rest of your post later.Are you somehow implying that a Jew cannot be saved now?Or,that there are no Christian Jews? God's chosen children(if you must)in these endtimes,are those that will not bend a knee to the beast.

Are you joking,why should they be any different from a Gentile that lives with Christ now.You can't have it both ways,you are either with Christ,or against Him!!
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No, of course not. ANY Jew can be saved IF they believe in Jesus. But the fact, most are SO INTENT on believing their Old Covenant, they cannot even think about Jesus. Thank God, some have believed. But over the centuries, I fear most have ended up in hell. Right; they are against Him, yet He will still bring 1/3 through the fire.

Now, I have a question for you. Suppose it is 33 or 34 AD and Jesus has just risen from the dead.
Suppose there are some OLD Jews that loved God with all their heart, but a part of the diaspora - perhaps they were living in Iran. Their ancestors had not returned from the Assyrian captivity. Or perhaps living in Iraq and had not returned from the Babylonian captivity. They have no earthly idea that their Messiah has come; they know NOTHING of Jesus. But they are righteous as far as the law in concerned. Suppose they die before they ever hear of Jesus. Perhaps some died the day after Jesus rose from the dead.

ARE THEY GOING TO END UP IN HELL, BECAUSE THEY NEVER HEARD?

Personally, I am glad it is God that makes this decision.

Coop
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You cannot seperate Jew's from Gentiles,period!!..Is anybody,Jew or Gentile going to hell because they never heard?
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From the days of Israel's beginnings, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, to the Law, up to the days of Malachi, as far as we know, NO Gentile made it into heaven. None knew God. REmember in the days of Elijah God had reserved - what was it - 7000 Jews that remained loyal to Him? Someone that visited heaven was talking to one of the old Jewish saints. I don't remember who. But the Jewish saint told him that for many centuries, there were only Jews in heaven, But when the Gentiles started coming, very soon they vastly outnumbered the Jews.

What did Paul say?

Ephesians 2:12
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

This is where the Gentiles were, throughout the centuries of the Old Covenant. On the other hand, were were the Jews?

Paul tells us:

Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Many Jews during the days of the Old Testament were "blameless" under the law. When they sinned, they immediately did the approiate sacrifice. Can you even think that Mary, the one God chose to be the mother of His Son, was NOT righteous under the law?

Therefore, OF COURSE we can separate the Jews from the Gentiles. God did it throughout history.

Unless someone has come up with another way to please God, having NOT HEARD is no excuse. UNLESS (I leave myself one possible exception) there has been a change of covenants. Some Jews were blameless under the law. So before Christ came, OF COURSE they made it into heaven.

Coop
 
Coop

Who are God's chosen,if you say the Jew's what about Israel?And Im not talking about the nation of Israel either...or do you think the Jews and Israel,are one and the same???
 
onelove said:
Coop

Who are God's chosen,if you say the Jew's what about Israel?And Im not talking about the nation of Israel either...or do you think the Jews and Israel,are one and the same???
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Why do you pick at nats?

Here is a Benjamite called a Jew:

Esther 2:5
Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;

Here all Hebrews called Jews:

Jeremiah 34:9
That every man should let his manservant, and every man his maidservant, being an Hebrew or an Hebrewess, go free; that none should serve himself of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother.

Here is one from the tribe of Levi called a Jew:

Acts 19:14
And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.


Paul called a Jew:

Acts 19:34
But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.

Over the years, the word Jew has come to mean ANY Hebrew from ANY tribe.

coop
 
There is some scripture in Titus 3:9-11 that applies to another ABOMINATION that should Make at least 'temp.' Desolate as well? (perhaps not fatal in this verse yet?) And Once or Twice? instead of getting ones foot in the door & not being to get the door closed!?? Even posting to oneself + answering ones self??? :screwloose

So 'i' personally see another very evil VAIN method of I,I,I,I,I or [self] taking over ones life to the point of where the Holy Spirit just CANNOT seem to reach them even with STRIVING'S for manny years, not just once or twice! Gen. 4:7. And this is NOT DESOLATION?? :screwloose

And FORUM, again read Rev. 17:1-5 and ask yourself & then coming back and tell us if you think that these 'churchs' could be anymore DESOLATE OF CHRIST than this [INSPIRATION] has [DOCUMENTED?]

So what the Godhead wants us to understand, is WHY OR WHAT MADE THIS TRUTH SO? Read Joshua 7:12's last part of the verse! Then think!! The DOOR CLOSING on Noah's ARK! And the DOOR WAS SHUT in Matt. 25:10! + Their HOUSE.. ['IS DESOLATE'], Matt. 23:38.. OK!!! Who took over when Christ was executed???? 'WE HAVE NO KING BUT CEASAR' was their cry! (USA GOVERNMENT) + Rev. 3:9 + is Church & state!

And the oooodles of Gen. 4:7's Coopies? :crying

--Elijah
 
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