The abomination of desolation

[GodspromisesRyes]

We have to distinguish between the flesh and Spirit.

Were OT saints saved? YES of the jews and gentiles! How were they saved? FAITH. Just as we are. They may have been blameless under the law true, but what that because they kept perfectly the law? not at all as that is not possible in the flesh paul says. They were blameless under the law because they WALKED BY FAITH which is higher than the law. They just could not yet be born again to free them from being under the law.Faith is and has always been the only way of salvation.

So the thing about US and the jews is this: We are beleivers- jews who are also beleivers are part of us, we are grafted together. Jesus died to tare down the wall that seperated us and He said He would have sheep not of this fold(israel) and he would make us ONE FOLD.

Jews who do not right now beleive, are in the same spot as gentiles who do not believe.- God still have chosen gentiles who are not saved yet but will be, and He has chosen jews- a remnant who are chosen also and will be saved.

But the idea that those remnant of jews who will be saved is seperate from us is a false doctrine. The idea that there is TWO bodies of saved people is completely refuted by scripture.

Eph 2:19 ¶ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

We in Christ are now no longer seperate from them. we are fellowcitizens with the saints and the household of God. Are we a seperate body from Abraham and Sarah? From David? From Joshua etc... NO we have been made fellowcitizens with them. WE ALL are part of the HEAVENLY CITY whose builder and maker is God. the NEW JERUSALEM.- It is this holy city that we are shown is built on the foundation of the apostles AND PROPHETS.

Paul shows us that some of the jews were broken off so that we could be GRAFTED IN. WE were added TO THE FAITHFUL. But then paul says that if they do not remain in unbelief he is able to GRAFT THEM BACK IN AGAIN. This means they jews who God saves later are grafted back in WHERE WE ARE. They are NOT A SEPERATE BODY.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary tRom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Paul makes it clear they were broken off and we were grafted in, he will use us to provoke them to jealousy then he will graft those who believe back in where they were cut off from.There is nowhere to be taught that those jews in the end arent the church- arent united with us. That all of a sudden the wall that Jesus DIED TO BREWAK DOWN is built up agaion! that doctrine undoes THE WORD OF THE CROSS!


The word of God is clear that there is no salvation to be found in obedience to the old covennat. Those who were saved under the Old covenant were saved BY FAITH. And that the law is made for the wicked not the rightous. To believe that in the tribulation the jews must go back under the law(which they are still under because of unbelief) and be saved under the law is heresy and again denies the ONLY WAY OF SALVATION. And to suggest that those who come to faith are seperate from us and are part of another body is always false. we are MADE ONE in Christ by faith. NEVER does scripture teach any doctrine that says that they will be seperate from us, that they are saved any other way then salvation by faith, or that anyone can be seperate from the ONE FOLD that God has made for all time.People are either IN CHRIST or they are not saved- and to be IN CHRIST means to be IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.


Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.


Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.


Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.


Rom 9:30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.


Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.


Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[lecoop]

We have to distinguish between the flesh and Spirit.

Were OT saints saved? YES of the jews and gentiles! How were they saved? FAITH. Just as we are. They may have been blameless under the law true, but what that because they kept perfectly the law? not at all as that is not possible in the flesh paul says. They were blameless under the law because they WALKED BY FAITH which is higher than the law. They just could not yet be born again to free them from being under the law.Faith is and has always been the only way of salvation.

So the thing about US and the jews is this: We are beleivers- jews who are also beleivers are part of us, we are grafted together. Jesus died to tare down the wall that seperated us and He said He would have sheep not of this fold(israel) and he would make us ONE FOLD.

Jews who do not right now beleive, are in the same spot as gentiles who do not believe.- God still have chosen gentiles who are not saved yet but will be, and He has chosen jews- a remnant who are chosen also and will be saved.

But the idea that those remnant of jews who will be saved is seperate from us is a false doctrine. The idea that there is TWO bodies of saved people is completely refuted by scripture.

Eph 2:19 ¶ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

We in Christ are now no longer seperate from them. we are fellowcitizens with the saints and the household of God. Are we a seperate body from Abraham and Sarah? From David? From Joshua etc... NO we have been made fellowcitizens with them. WE ALL are part of the HEAVENLY CITY whose builder and maker is God. the NEW JERUSALEM.- It is this holy city that we are shown is built on the foundation of the apostles AND PROPHETS.

Paul shows us that some of the jews were broken off so that we could be GRAFTED IN. WE were added TO THE FAITHFUL. But then paul says that if they do not remain in unbelief he is able to GRAFT THEM BACK IN AGAIN. This means they jews who God saves later are grafted back in WHERE WE ARE. They are NOT A SEPERATE BODY.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary tRom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Paul makes it clear they were broken off and we were grafted in, he will use us to provoke them to jealousy then he will graft those who believe back in where they were cut off from.There is nowhere to be taught that those jews in the end arent the church- arent united with us. That all of a sudden the wall that Jesus DIED TO BREWAK DOWN is built up agaion! that doctrine undoes THE WORD OF THE CROSS!


The word of God is clear that there is no salvation to be found in obedience to the old covennat. Those who were saved under the Old covenant were saved BY FAITH. And that the law is made for the wicked not the rightous. To believe that in the tribulation the jews must go back under the law(which they are still under because of unbelief) and be saved under the law is heresy and again denies the ONLY WAY OF SALVATION. And to suggest that those who come to faith are seperate from us and are part of another body is always false. we are MADE ONE in Christ by faith. NEVER does scripture teach any doctrine that says that they will be seperate from us, that they are saved any other way then salvation by faith, or that anyone can be seperate from the ONE FOLD that God has made for all time.People are either IN CHRIST or they are not saved- and to be IN CHRIST means to be IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.


Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.


Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.


Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.


Rom 9:30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.


Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.


Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Old covenant saints could be perfect under the law, if when they sin, they do the appropriate sacrifice. But they certainly had to have FAITH in that covenant and in God.

I am not saying the remnant will be saved "under" the law. As Paul said, the law came to show us how sinful we are. They are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but AFTER THE DOOR HAS CLOSED TO THE BODY OF CHRIST. The door to the body of Christ will not always remain open. Paul said, when the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in. On that day, no new believer will be places into the body of Christ. Therefore they become saints in the Millennial reign of Christ.

So many people get confused and think that we are NUTS to beleive there will be a new temple and sacrifices begining again. But it is a fact of scripture. NO ONE is saying that is God's will for them start the daily sacrifices again. But it is obvious, many JEWS believe it is. They are still deceived at that point.

Do you have trouble believing that there will be natural people, giving birth to natural people during the millennium? Post trib people have painted themselves into a corner, for if the rapture came on the last day, first, there are NO natural people to go into the millennium. Next, there would be no need for the sheep and goat judgement.

 

[veteran]

Do you have trouble believing that there will be natural people, giving birth to natural people during the millennium? Post trib people have painted themselves into a corner, for if the rapture came on the last day, first, there are NO natural people to go into the millennium. Next, there would be no need for the sheep and goat judgement.

Jesus said in Matt.22:30 in the resurrection they don't mary nor given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.

John 5:29 shows at Christ's coming both a resurrection of the just and the unjust will happen.

Those are direct statements that do not leave any room for the false idea of natural flesh people going through Christ's Milennium reign, nor being born during that time.

 

[Elijah674]

The only future temple I have read about is the one constructed after Messiahs return. So if there is no temple prior, what is the holy place?

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Mathew 24:15

Another way of interpreting "the abomination of desolation" is also known as the "overspreading of armies that cause desolation". If Jewish history is any judge that is what it will take to cause the holy place to become desolate.

What could possibly be that holy place spoken of here? I contend it is Jerusalem herself.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Luke 21:20

It says Standing there, [JUST STANDING THERE].. No force seen in Matt. until 39 years later! But when Christ was REJECTED, who took over? Rev. 3:9, and yes, surely Jerusalem was later destroyed. But the REAL ABOMINATION was seen 'in the Midst of the Week;' at Christ Crucifixion!

Only two groups seen here that [PASSED THROUGH] the Abomination THAT MADE them DESOLATE!. One stayed IN & and the other went OUT TO MEET HIM! (Matt. 25 John 12:42-43) See if you can find the CENTER/PIECE that made the abomination? Which was & IS STILL the [RIGHTOUSNESS OF CHRIST! Rev. 14:6] (and it was not 70AD's Sanctuary slaughter!) Read Isa. 5:3! + Rev. 17:1-5!

--Elijah

 

[lecoop]

Do you have trouble believing that there will be natural people, giving birth to natural people during the millennium? Post trib people have painted themselves into a corner, for if the rapture came on the last day, first, there are NO natural people to go into the millennium. Next, there would be no need for the sheep and goat judgement.

Jesus said in Matt.22:30 in the resurrection they don't mary nor given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.

John 5:29 shows at Christ's coming both a resurrection of the just and the unjust will happen.

Those are direct statements that do not leave any room for the false idea of natural flesh people going through Christ's Milennium reign, nor being born during that time.

Context, my friend.

Matt. 22:25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.â€


These people DIED. I am talking of people that do not die, but survive the 70th week, such as the remnant that fled. Of course there will be Gentiles that survive to. The resurrection will not count for them, for they are alive.


John
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

We are not talking about dead people, but LIVE people.

Please read and understand: These are not DEAD people resurrected: they have never died; they SURVIVED the 70th week:

Matt 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Coop

 

[Elijah674]

Forum: THINK!
The [[ONLY}} way one can be Eternally LOST (Obad. 1:16) is [not being executed] regardless how it is done. 'Of which [SALVATION] the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied [of thr Grace that should come unto you: ... [Which things the angels desire to LOOK INTO.'] (1 Peter 1:9-12 in part)

And if one cannot or will not understand what IS THE ABOMINATION AGAINST ALL OF SALVATION??? Then, they best start back at SQUARE ONE of Gen. 3:15! Gen. 4:1-7 + Gen. 8:20 + Gen. 22:9 + Exod. 17:15.

Acts 4
[10] Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
[11] This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
[12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

The only future temple I have read about is the one constructed after Messiahs return. So if there is no temple prior, what is the holy place?

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Mathew 24:15

Another way of interpreting "the abomination of desolation" is also known as the "overspreading of armies that cause desolation". If Jewish history is any judge that is what it will take to cause the holy place to become desolate.

What could possibly be that holy place spoken of here? I contend it is Jerusalem herself.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Luke 21:20

It says Standing there, [JUST STANDING THERE].. No force seen in Matt. until 39 years later! But when Christ was REJECTED, who took over? Rev. 3:9, and yes, surely Jerusalem was later destroyed. But the REAL ABOMINATION was seen 'in the Midst of the Week;' at Christ Crucifixion!

Only two groups seen here that [PASSED THROUGH] the Abomination THAT MADE them DESOLATE!. One stayed IN & and the other went OUT TO MEET HIM! (Matt. 25 John 12:42-43) See if you can find the CENTER/PIECE that made the abomination? Which was & IS STILL the [RIGHTOUSNESS OF CHRIST! Rev. 14:6] (and it was not 70AD's Sanctuary slaughter!) Read Isa. 5:3! + Rev. 17:1-5!

--Elijah

OK: Lets try again!! ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION?? Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15 says that what was before us is now, and what is now, has already been! (BOTTOM/LINE) And WHAT IS NEW??? And that there is NO NEW THING! Whatever? you go get it right, huh?

So, if one believes Christ Word's of Inspiration, lets forget the few times that He mentions that it does not repeat that He does documents.. so as it is made easier for us to understand, huh? (such as the rain/bow & Nah. 1:9 sin thing)

Lets start with just the SLAUGHTER of the Earth ones judged in Gen. 6:5 that.. 'And God saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth +..' NOW, we found in Gen. 6:3 that the Holy Ghost STROVE with mankind for 120 years along beside the PREACHER OF RIGHTOUSNESS as Peter called him.

But here is the POINT! Was it the Arks DOOR BEING SHUT which was the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, or was the execution of the ones outside the call??

--Elijah

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Old covenant saints could be perfect under the law, if when they sin, they do the appropriate sacrifice. But they certainly had to have FAITH in that covenant and in God.

I am not saying the remnant will be saved "under" the law. As Paul said, the law came to show us how sinful we are. They are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but AFTER THE DOOR HAS CLOSED TO THE BODY OF CHRIST. The door to the body of Christ will not always remain open. Paul said, when the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in. On that day, no new believer will be places into the body of Christ. Therefore they become saints in the Millennial reign of Christ.

So many people get confused and think that we are NUTS to beleive there will be a new temple and sacrifices begining again. But it is a fact of scripture. NO ONE is saying that is God's will for them start the daily sacrifices again. But it is obvious, many JEWS believe it is. They are still deceived at that point.

Do you have trouble believing that there will be natural people, giving birth to natural people during the millennium? Post trib people have painted themselves into a corner, for if the rapture came on the last day, first, there are NO natural people to go into the millennium. Next, there would be no need for the sheep and goat judgement.

"Old covenant saints could be perfect under the law, if when they sin, they do the appropriate sacrifice."

Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hbr 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

They were blameless by the law but they were not perfect, nor was their sacrifices the word of God says.


"
but AFTER THE DOOR HAS CLOSED TO THE BODY OF CHRIST. The door to the body of Christ will not always remain open. Paul said, when the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in. On that day, no new believer will be places into the body of Christ. Therefore they become saints in the Millennial reign of Christ."

That is not at all what paul says, nowhere in the word of God does it say that anyone is saved after the door to the body of CHrist is closed. In fact paul says the opposite.


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

We were graffted into THEIR olive tree by CHrist Jesus and they were broken off, but those who do not abide in unbelief will be grafted back in TO THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE WHERE WE ARE. They are not added to some seperate body of beleivers somewhere- the time of the gentiles does not end the church age! the church did not begin with gentiles it began with jews and it does not end with gentiles it ends with jews!

NEVER does the word of God teach that after the time of the gentiles the church age is over.- the church age is not about gentiles! ti is about all people of all nations coming to faith in christ Jesus under the new covenant in His blood by faith.It began with the JEWS- the church began WITH JEWS and paul says that God will GRAFT THEM BACXK IN. not graft them somewhere apart from us who believe.

Eph 2:14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 2:19 ¶ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Jesus tore down the middle wall of partition- He did not ever ever say it would be built back up again. He said He made ONE FOLD- not two folds, not one fold now and another fold later, Paul makes it clear that all the saints are of ONE house, ONE temple, ONE body ONE fold. Never does the word of God say that anyone jew or gentile who is ever saved by faith is or can be outside of the body of Christ.- We are made one how??? BY ONE SPIRIT because of faith.- How could a remenat of jews be saved by faith later and recieve the Spirit- the same Spirit and not be united with us? While we are united together and united to Christ and God? And if WE are united to Jesus and to GOD- who would they be united with? And if they were united with Jesus and God also in the same Spirit how could anything seperate them from us? There is NO SUCH TEACHING in the word of God. And they could not be saved without the Spirit of God either because you MUST be born again. There is no way around this contrived teaching that is going on that somehow the jews who God grafts back in, are seperate from us.- AND there is no scripture that they will be in the millenium that is just some peoples fanciful ideas. Who are we told of in the millenium? We are told of the CHURCH- who did not take the mark or worship the beast who will sit on thrones ruling over the nations for the millenium- and of the wicked nations that will be ruled by us with a rod of iron as we rule and inherit with Christ.- NO MENTION of some believing jews who are totally seperate from us somehow although saved in the same covenant.

Watch what paul says- and he never says there is anything after this point:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

God has called his elect- of the jews and the gentiles.He speaks of how those who were not his people would be called his beloved- and how though the jews be the sand of the sea a remnant should be saved. Then God says" he will FINISH HIS WORK and cut it short in rightousness.

This clearly is paul saying God calls his elect the jews and gentiles- he makes them his people and he will still then save a remnant of the jews and then cfinish his work. He does not say these are some seperate body of people- when the remnat of jews get saved THAT IS GOD FINISHING HIS WORK OF THE CHURCH THE ONE BODY OF BELIEVERS.- Do you know that they were called the church in the wilderness? The church existed from the beginning and it will exist forever. One cannot be saved and be outside of the church of any generation any time. God has ONE holy nation ONE holy city ONE holy temple ONE holy BODY ONE flock.

Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.


We are tol dmany things about when Jesus returns- " he will gather the wheat into the barn and bind the tares in bundles to be burned"" he willseperate the sheep from the goats, the goasts on his left the sheep on his right"- WHERE IS THIS THIRD GROUP? You teach a third group- who is saved but isnt part of the saved people at all so where are they? They seem to be nowhere in what Jesus said would happen at his coming.

 

[lecoop]

Old covenant saints could be perfect under the law, if when they sin, they do the appropriate sacrifice. But they certainly had to have FAITH in that covenant and in God.

I am not saying the remnant will be saved "under" the law. As Paul said, the law came to show us how sinful we are. They are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but AFTER THE DOOR HAS CLOSED TO THE BODY OF CHRIST. The door to the body of Christ will not always remain open. Paul said, when the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in. On that day, no new believer will be places into the body of Christ. Therefore they become saints in the Millennial reign of Christ.

So many people get confused and think that we are NUTS to beleive there will be a new temple and sacrifices begining again. But it is a fact of scripture. NO ONE is saying that is God's will for them start the daily sacrifices again. But it is obvious, many JEWS believe it is. They are still deceived at that point.

Do you have trouble believing that there will be natural people, giving birth to natural people during the millennium? Post trib people have painted themselves into a corner, for if the rapture came on the last day, first, there are NO natural people to go into the millennium. Next, there would be no need for the sheep and goat judgement.

"Old covenant saints could be perfect under the law, if when they sin, they do the appropriate sacrifice."

Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hbr 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

They were blameless by the law but they were not perfect, nor was their sacrifices the word of God says.


"
but AFTER THE DOOR HAS CLOSED TO THE BODY OF CHRIST. The door to the body of Christ will not always remain open. Paul said, when the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in. On that day, no new believer will be places into the body of Christ. Therefore they become saints in the Millennial reign of Christ."

That is not at all what paul says, nowhere in the word of God does it say that anyone is saved after the door to the body of CHrist is closed. In fact paul says the opposite.


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

We were graffted into THEIR olive tree by CHrist Jesus and they were broken off, but those who do not abide in unbelief will be grafted back in TO THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE WHERE WE ARE. They are not added to some seperate body of beleivers somewhere- the time of the gentiles does not end the church age! the church did not begin with gentiles it began with jews and it does not end with gentiles it ends with jews!

NEVER does the word of God teach that after the time of the gentiles the church age is over.- the church age is not about gentiles! ti is about all people of all nations coming to faith in christ Jesus under the new covenant in His blood by faith.It began with the JEWS- the church began WITH JEWS and paul says that God will GRAFT THEM BACXK IN. not graft them somewhere apart from us who believe.

Eph 2:14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 2:19 ¶ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Jesus tore down the middle wall of partition- He did not ever ever say it would be built back up again. He said He made ONE FOLD- not two folds, not one fold now and another fold later, Paul makes it clear that all the saints are of ONE house, ONE temple, ONE body ONE fold. Never does the word of God say that anyone jew or gentile who is ever saved by faith is or can be outside of the body of Christ.- We are made one how??? BY ONE SPIRIT because of faith.- How could a remenat of jews be saved by faith later and recieve the Spirit- the same Spirit and not be united with us? While we are united together and united to Christ and God? And if WE are united to Jesus and to GOD- who would they be united with? And if they were united with Jesus and God also in the same Spirit how could anything seperate them from us? There is NO SUCH TEACHING in the word of God. And they could not be saved without the Spirit of God either because you MUST be born again. There is no way around this contrived teaching that is going on that somehow the jews who God grafts back in, are seperate from us.- AND there is no scripture that they will be in the millenium that is just some peoples fanciful ideas. Who are we told of in the millenium? We are told of the CHURCH- who did not take the mark or worship the beast who will sit on thrones ruling over the nations for the millenium- and of the wicked nations that will be ruled by us with a rod of iron as we rule and inherit with Christ.- NO MENTION of some believing jews who are totally seperate from us somehow although saved in the same covenant.

Watch what paul says- and he never says there is anything after this point:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

God has called his elect- of the jews and the gentiles.He speaks of how those who were not his people would be called his beloved- and how though the jews be the sand of the sea a remnant should be saved. Then God says" he will FINISH HIS WORK and cut it short in rightousness.

This clearly is paul saying God calls his elect the jews and gentiles- he makes them his people and he will still then save a remnant of the jews and then cfinish his work. He does not say these are some seperate body of people- when the remnat of jews get saved THAT IS GOD FINISHING HIS WORK OF THE CHURCH THE ONE BODY OF BELIEVERS.- Do you know that they were called the church in the wilderness? The church existed from the beginning and it will exist forever. One cannot be saved and be outside of the church of any generation any time. God has ONE holy nation ONE holy city ONE holy temple ONE holy BODY ONE flock.

Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.


We are tol dmany things about when Jesus returns- " he will gather the wheat into the barn and bind the tares in bundles to be burned"" he willseperate the sheep from the goats, the goasts on his left the sheep on his right"- WHERE IS THIS THIRD GROUP? You teach a third group- who is saved but isnt part of the saved people at all so where are they? They seem to be nowhere in what Jesus said would happen at his coming.

You are right, "blameless " is the correct word.

So, why don't you enlighten us" WHO are the sheep here? They cannot be the church, for at this time they will all have resurrection bodies and will certainly NOT be judged on how they treated the Jews during the 70th week.

But WAIT! Since those at this judgement ARE judged as to how they treated the Jews during the 70th week, it MUST BE they were alive on the earth during the 70th week.

So please tell us, WHO are the sheep?

NExt, it seems there is a hidden group here at this judgment: Jesus mentions His "Brethern." ARe they part of the sheep, or are they bystanders; witnesses?

Coop

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

You are right, "blameless " is the correct word.

So, why don't you enlighten us" WHO are the sheep here? They cannot be the church, for at this time they will all have resurrection bodies and will certainly NOT be judged on how they treated the Jews during the 70th week.

But WAIT! Since those at this judgement ARE judged as to how they treated the Jews during the 70th week, it MUST BE they were alive on the earth during the 70th week.

So please tell us, WHO are the sheep?

NExt, it seems there is a hidden group here at this judgment: Jesus mentions His "Brethern." ARe they part of the sheep, or are they bystanders; witnesses?

Coop

Your doctrine gets in your way of just listening to the word of God: WHO are the sheep?
Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Hbr 13:20 ¶ Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


Jhn 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Jhn 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.


Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

"They cannot be the church, for at this time they will all have resurrection bodies and will certainly NOT be judged on how they treated the Jews during the 70th week."

We will indeed be judged. WHen Christ comes we will be raised to life in resurected bodies true, But we will also stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

2Cr 5:9 ¶ Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

You wrongly interpet who His " brethern " are. We must look at what the scriptures say and not see in the flesh alone outside the word.


This is what gets said to the sheep- US
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

(who inherits the kingdom with the king except US the bride the church?

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

This is about how we have LOVED His brethern. OUR brethern!. What does Jesus say about HIS BRETHERN?

Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Hbr 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hbr 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.


This is why we are taught so often in the word about LOVING THE BRETHERN. Becase we are all the body of Christ, He lives in each of us and for me to love you is to love Christ for me to feed you is to feed Him. He said WE are the brethern. many more times than to count WE are called the brethern.


"But WAIT! Since those at this judgement ARE judged as to how they treated the Jews during the 70th week, it MUST BE they were alive on the earth during the 70th week."

Now the scripture says none of this, it does not say it was about how jews were treated, it doesnt say it is about how people were treated in the 70th week it says none of that. We are the sheep as I showed above. the sheep are calle dthe rightous also and they inherit the kingdom with their king. That is what we do and we are called his sheep.

"NExt, it seems there is a hidden group here at this judgment: Jesus mentions His "Brethern." ARe they part of the sheep, or are they bystanders; witnesses?"

This is no third group and even though I already gave scriptures and answered it, i will make it plain again. Jesus is talking to the sheep- US- about how we treated His brethern- US. This is about how we loved each other. read the books of 1st and 2nd John, this is spoken of over and over how we are to love the brethern, how if we see a brother in need and we hold back our bowles of compassion towareds him how could the love of God dwell in us. How we should lay down our lives for each other.

1Jo 3:16 ¶ Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.


1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


1Jo 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.


1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

etc.... John even says in this ssame chapter becuase of this love we will have boldness in the day of judgement! that is exactly what we are talking about.

1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.


1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.


1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.


1Jo 4:20 ¶ If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?


1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

 

[n2thelight]

Coop

Who are God's chosen,if you say the Jew's what about Israel?And Im not talking about the nation of Israel either...or do you think the Jews and Israel,are one and the same???

Why do you pick at nats?

Here is a Benjamite called a Jew:

Esther 2:5
Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;

Here all Hebrews called Jews:

Jeremiah 34:9
That every man should let his manservant, and every man his maidservant, being an Hebrew or an Hebrewess, go free; that none should serve himself of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother.

Here is one from the tribe of Levi called a Jew:

Acts 19:14
And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.


Paul called a Jew:

Acts 19:34
But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.

Over the years, the word Jew has come to mean ANY Hebrew from ANY tribe.

coop

Who are the so-called "Jews" of today?
A reasonable question answered from logic and historic fact


The word Jew comes from a Greek word meaning descendent of the tribe of Judah, or someone living in the land of Judea. Today's Jews call themselves Jews to falsely imply that they are somehow descendent from the Biblical tribe of Judah.

When asked the question, "Who is Israel? - Who is a Jew?", the Israeli Government's Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) unhesitatingly answered thus [emphasis added]:


The term Israelite is purely Biblical.



An Israeli is a citizen of Israel, regardless of religion.



A Jew is a person anywhere in the world born to a Jewish mother, or converted to Judaism, who is thus identified as a member of the Jewish people and religion.

-- Information Division, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Jerusalem; Feb, 1998.


"Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew." Or to call a contemporary Jew [an] "Israelite," or a "Hebrew." The first Hebrews may not have been Jews at all, and contemporary Palestinians, by their own definition of the term "Palestinian," have to include Jews among their own people."

--The Jewish Almanac, Oct., 1980, page 3, Bantam Books, Inc. Under a headline entitled... 'Identity Crisis'.

I pick at nats trying to show you that God has no favorites,it makes no difference who or what you are..

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respector of persons:"

So for you to say that some jews won't be saved until they actually see Christ is ludacris

Jesus was one unbroken physical seed from God {Gen 3:15}. It is this Jesus that is the Savior to the world, not only Israel from Adam, but also the gentiles from the sixth day creation. Look at it this way: God through Adam through Eve through Mother Mary + the Holy Spirit of God = Jesus Christ, God manifested in the flesh (Emmanuel - God with us).

In the Old Testament we had a man in Christ’s genealogy named Eber {Gen 11:16} (spelled Heber in N.T. {Luke 3:35}). From him we get the name Hebrews. Then in the process of time, through Heber’s family we came to Abraham, who begat Isaac, who begat Jacob. Now God changed Jacob’s name to Israel and he had 12 sons.

These twelve sons are the Patriarchs (founding fathers) of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. There was no such thing as Israel in the Bible until these twelve sons were born (approx. 1775-1728 B.C.). And God changes Jacob's name to Israel in (Gen 32:28 - approx.1739 B.C.). So prior to this the family of Adam (Formed in 4004 B.C.) was God’s chosen and it was they whom through the promise was to come. And by 'chosen' I mean that through them God would save ALL peoples. God loves all His children! Please do not read racism or anti-Semitism into this, there is no racism or anti-Semitism with God’s Word, but satan so loves to plant seeds of discord, so resist the temptation to be used in this manner (race baiting).

In the process of time these Twelve Tribes had a rift, and the split into two Kingdoms:

The Southern Kingdom:
Consisted of two of the tribes (Judah and Benjamin) and were called Judah with their capital in Jerusalem.

Judah punished:
Because of idolatry, God also punished Judah, and the Two Tribe Southern Kingdom Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians. In 477 B.C.* Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple of God (the same location of the Temple Mount in modern Israel). At this time there are still no Jews, there is only the Kingdom of Judah. ‘Jew’ is a term that we will explain later, but for now understand that it is a religious designation and not a national identifier. In other words, contrary to popular misconception, you are not born a Jew but become one by that particular brand of religion (Judaism). More on that later. [ *all dating as per Companion Bible by E.W. Bullinger]

The Northern Kingdom:
Consisting of the other Ten Tribes were called Israel and their capital was at Samaria.

Israel punished:
Because of idolatry, God punished Israel, and The Ten Tribe Israel nation was taken into captivity by the Assyrians and Israel became a province of Assyria in 611 B.C.* and the people Israel dropped out of the Biblical narrative and profane history as well for the most part. They became not a people (lo-ammi).

In the process of time SOME of the Kingdom of Judah were allowed to return to Jerusalem, most did not. So this small contingent of the Tribe of Judah stayed in Jerusalem and intermarried with the Babylonians, as well as the Edomites (sons of Esau Jacob/Israels’s brother by Isaac) and the Kenites (sons of Cain, which was the son of the serpent/satan {Gen 3:15}). These formed their own religion that was much different than the Old Testament religion of the Hebrews. These who are now called "Jews" added to the Old Testament Scriptures their own "Oral Law" called Talmud. This of course was a corruption of God’s Old Testament religion and the work of satan.

It is these Jews that were in control of the Temple during Christ’s time, it is them that Christ so often chastised and rebuked, it is them that Jesus told:

John 8:44
44 Ye are of [progeny; Greek word #1537 ek (out of)] your father the devil [satan - the serpent in the Garden of Eden], and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning [Cain - Kenites], and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it [satan/serpent uttered first lie (Gen 3:4)]. (KJV)

 

[lecoop]

Your doctrine gets in your way of just listening to the word of God: WHO are the sheep?
Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Hbr 13:20 ¶ Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


Jhn 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Jhn 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.


Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

"They cannot be the church, for at this time they will all have resurrection bodies and will certainly NOT be judged on how they treated the Jews during the 70th week."

All those scriptures are true, but sorry, they do NOT define the sheep at the judgment of the nations. Just because you find the word "sheep," does not mean two scriptures relate. I can find scriptures of four legged sheep too; but they won't fit either. We must RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of God. You are putting together many many scriptures that have NO BEARING on the subject.

We will indeed be judged. WHen Christ comes we will be raised to life in resurected bodies true, But we will also stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

This is the judgement of the NATIONS (flesh and blood people) , not the judgement seat of Christ where WE, the church are judged.

2Cr 5:9 ¶ Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

You wrongly interpet who His " brethern " are. We must look at what the scriptures say and not see in the flesh alone outside the word.


This is what gets said to the sheep- US
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

(who inherits the kingdom with the king except US the bride the church?

We will have ALREADY inherited it; 7 years previous. But we get to judge in the Millennium. This judgement of the nations is about WHO inherits the kingdom. We are talking live, flesh and blood people. NOT resurrected people.

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

This is about how we have LOVED His brethern. OUR brethern!. What does Jesus say about HIS BRETHERN?

Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Let's take the CONTEXT: the Jews have just survived (that is those that DID survive) a holocaust far worse than WW2. They have been chased and hunted down as never before. They could not buy or sell, and could not be "caught," else they loose thier head. The ONLY way some will survive is if people HELP them; exactly what many did during WW 2. This judgment of the nations is all about WHO Helped them at their time of need

35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

Sorry, but you are confused: the church will be in heaven, during this time, and will have PLENTY of food and drink! This is speaking of people that must go through the days of God's wrath that we are kept from.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Hbr 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hbr 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.


This is why we are taught so often in the word about LOVING THE BRETHERN. Becase we are all the body of Christ, He lives in each of us and for me to love you is to love Christ for me to feed you is to feed Him. He said WE are the brethern. many more times than to count WE are called the brethern.


"But WAIT! Since those at this judgement ARE judged as to how they treated the Jews during the 70th week, it MUST BE they were alive on the earth during the 70th week."

Now the scripture says none of this, it does not say it was about how jews were treated, it doesnt say it is about how people were treated in the 70th week it says none of that. We are the sheep as I showed above. the sheep are calle dthe rightous also and they inherit the kingdom with their king. That is what we do and we are called his sheep.

Then, you have MISSED it. Surely you read about King Nebuchadnezzar and the firery furnace? That was only a TYPE of what is coming. Surely you have read what Antiochus Epiphanes did to the Jews? That was only a TYPE of what is coming. Surely you have read that people will be FORCED: either take the mark or lose the head (if they are caught). Perhaps some Jews will take the mark. But not those whose names are written in heaven. But I probably should not limit this to Jews only, for there will be many that turn to Christ after the rapture, after they learn that they have been "Left behind." They too will refuse the mark. They too will need help to survive. So perhaps I can give you this much; there may be some "brethern" that are Gentiles. I will say that is possible. You want to make this of the church age. But we will have already been at the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, long before this event.

IN CONTEXT this will take place shortly after the worst holocaust ever against the Jews. You do understand, it is called "Jacob's trouble" not "Gentile's trouble." That is proved by "Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child." (Rev 12:13) The FIRST thing SAtan does is go after the Jews. John goes on to write: "And the dragon was enraged with the woman." And you think none of this is in the scripture? Just imagine you are a Jew, hiding in Berlin in 1942 or 43. That should give you a faint idea of what is in store for all descendants of Jacob. It will be every bit as intense as it was in Berlin and surrounding cities, BUT FAR WORSE, FOR IT WILL BE WORLD WIDE. That means NO WHERE to hide. These things ARE written, but you miss them.


Here is just two verses, but there is SO MUCH in these two verses:

Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

What does "war" and "overcome" mean to you? What does every tribe and nation mean to you? It could be compared to a Jew living in Berlin say about 1943: if he was found out, he was dead; plain and simple. You do remember that 6 million did not get away? That is a perfect definition of "overcome." It has ALWAYS been Satan's plan to destroy every last Jew (Hebrew) so God will be proved a liar. He will try one more time.

"NExt, it seems there is a hidden group here at this judgment: Jesus mentions His "Brethern." ARe they part of the sheep, or are they bystanders; witnesses?"

This is no third group and even though I already gave scriptures and answered it, i will make it plain again. Jesus is talking to the sheep- US- about how we treated His brethern- US. This is about how we loved each other. read the books of 1st and 2nd John, this is spoken of over and over how we are to love the brethern, how if we see a brother in need and we hold back our bowles of compassion towareds him how could the love of God dwell in us. How we should lay down our lives for each other.

I am sorry, but you cannot find "US" there. The church is simply NOT HERE. You have adlibbed that part. Yes, OF COUSE we love the brethern - but WE are not at this judegment: it is not for us or about us. You have taken it TOTALLY out of context. It is right there will the parable of the virgins and the parable of the talents. Read again WHO this is for:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

This is speaking of ALL LEFT ALIVE ON THE EARTH AFTER THE 70TH WEEK HAS ENDED and even after the battle of Armegeddon. Jesus will have had time to set up His throne. Then every natural flesh and blood human left alive on the planet will stand in judgement. Why would you even think the church would still be a part of any nation? Our citizenship is in heaven. We will have been in heaven for the whole 7 years, and will come back with Jesus with resurrected bodies; to be judges during the millennium. In fact, it actually says it will be Jesus and the angels, and the church is not even mentioned. You have to adlib to get the church here.

1Jo 3:16 ¶ Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.

1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

...

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

etc.... John even says in this ssame chapter becuase of this love we will have boldness in the day of judgement! that is exactly what we are talking about.

Sorry, but this judgement has nothing to do with ANY of these verses. This judgment is for the nations; all ethnic groups that have survived the 70th week and day of the Lord up to this point. These are people that had homes, and lived in them during those days of great tribulation. Sorry, but that does NOT include the church. We are NOT HERE at that time. Since this judgement is all about those that WERE HERE during that time, we are left out. Sorry, but all of your arguments fail.

I will grant you that it does not specifically say that this was food and drink during those days of great tribulation. But IN CONTEXT this will be right after the worst holocaust the Jews will have ever faced. It will take place shortly AFTER those days of great tribulation. And where else will His "brethern" need food and water? No other time in history will they need help from fellow men MORE than during those days of great tribulation.

All your scriptures are true, of course, but they simple do not relate. You see the end times FAR differently that I do.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

coop, you completely ignore the word of God for your own doctrine so I will leave you to it. I pray in time God shows you this web of deception you are caught in and gives you truth without measure.May He uphold you so that these deceptions do not cause your falling.

 

[Elijah674]

And what was the SUBJECT??

2Cor.4
[1] Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;(?????????)

[2] But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, (??) nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

[3] But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It is this that we are to be OVERLY CONCERNED ABOUT!!
--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

Hi again Forum: This is how 'i' see it unfolding again. I do not see the Abomination of Desolation as a New Thing! Eccl. 3:15 Surely it is stated so if there is some change. Such as the Midnight Cry for Christ WARNING to old Israel that their house was DESOLATE (Matt. 23:38) & their LOUD Cry of their 70 AD Slaughter. So both Christ & Paul documented that this time around there would not be another 39 years seperating the Two. They stated that 'IT WOULD BE CUT SHORT IN RIGHTOUSNESS'. (Acts 3:19's repeat of the Early to the Latter Rain)

Laodicea is the last Spewed Out repeat Candelstick. And the Sixth Philadelphia Candelstick REPLACES HER! These of Rev. 3:10 are the ones who have done exactly as did the Church of Acts. 2 Thess. 2:1-4. (so far as least, yet without Christ's REQUIRED ETERNAL GOSPEL ORDER of Matt. 16:27-28 + Eph. 4:4-16! The Church per/say (Old Israel ) stayed put with not choosing Christ but DENOMINATION OVER CHRIST! Isa. 5:3 (BETWIXT!) + John 12:42-43 (Church over Christ!).

And it REQUIRES both Christ & His Required Gospel Organized Order to have Christ! With out Christ's UNITY in heaven starting with His Own here on earth??? [[[NO WAY!!]]] One would see satan's rebellion all over again! And that ain't go'in to ever take place again. Nah. 1:9 And if we are [LOOSE CANNONS] at present, we can attest to the fact that we are [NOT CHRISTIANS!] (at least not yet 'MEAT FED ONES'! )

--Elijah

 

[lecoop]

coop, you completely ignore the word of God for your own doctrine so I will leave you to it. I pray in time God shows you this web of deception you are caught in and gives you truth without measure.May He uphold you so that these deceptions do not cause your falling.

Why? Because I disagree with YOUR doctrine? One can make the word of God say anything, if they do not use wisdom in understanding.

Matthew 27:5
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thessalonians 5:18
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.


Here are three scriptures, giving a clear message. EAch scripture is truth. EAch is the word of God. But is this the message intended by the author?

You wrote,

Paul makes it clear they were broken off and we were grafted in, he will use us to provoke them to jealousy then he will graft those who believe back in where they were cut off from.There is nowhere to be taught that those jews in the end arent the church- arent united with us. That all of a sudden the wall that Jesus DIED TO BREWAK DOWN is built up agaion! that doctrine undoes THE WORD OF THE CROSS!

All I ask is that you show us WHERE or WHEN these that flee at the abomination, are born again, are raptured, and become a part of the church. In fact, please show us HOW they get into heaven to the marriage of the Lamb. Hmmm. That will be pretty difficult, for John shows the marriage in heaven, while the remnant that fled is finishing their 1260 days. Do you see ANOTHER rapture just for them?

Please explain this: here we find the gospel in as neat a package as one can find:

1 Cor 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Rom 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Untold millions have come into the body of Christ, with faith in these words. They confessed with their mouth the Lord Jesus, and they believed in their heart, that God raised Jesus from the dead. It is a simple Gospel.

But now notice the message preached by the angels:

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

What has happened? Why has the message changed? Where is the faith in a Resurrected Lord? Where is the blood to remove sins? It is not found here. This is after the midpoint of the 70th week. You will not find the gospel we entered the body of Christ with, anywhere in the word of God AFTER the midpoint of the week. Here is it only Fear and Worship God. Why? Very simple:



Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What "Mystery?" I believe THIS mystery: there is a "church age," with a beginning and and end: a dispensation:

Eph 3
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

It is the "Age of Grace."
It is the dispensation of Grace.
Here it is again, a "dispensation."

Col. 1:25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

What is the mystery? It is Christ in you - the Gentiles. But it is ONLY a dispensation. Meaning, it ENDS. A dispensation has a beginning and AN ENDING. I believe it ENDS at the 7th trumpet which marks the exact midpoint of the 70th week. We also see that end here:

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in

"UNTIL" is and ending kind of word. One day the last Gentile will be born again, and the door will CLOSE. Please note, this is still a part of the "MYSTERY."

Does that mean no one after that can turn to God? Of course not. But any who turn to God AFTER this, will not become a member of the church. That "dispensation" will have ENDED. That is why the message of the Angel in Rev 14 does not mention the Gospel that we preach today; the death, burial and ressurection of our Lord Jesus. AT that time, the midpoint of the week, THE CHURCH will have been in heaven for 3 1/2 years. (see the great crowd in Rev 7) The 144,000 will have been raptured to heaven.

Do you see ANOTHER rapture after these two, for the remnant? This has been one thing that post tribbers cannot answer: if there is a rapture at Christ's coming, as seen in Rev. 19, there are no righteous humans left alive on planet earth to inherit the earthly kingdom. There is NO NEED for the judgement of the nations, for all righteous people are raptured, and ONLY GOATS are left.

The truth is, there WILL BE natural people left alive at the judgement of the nations. And those that pass the test, will be allowed to ENTER that earthly kingdom as flesh and blood people, to marry, and repopulate the earth. These things MUST BE to fulfill scripture. Any end time theory must fit ALL scripture if it is truth.

Coop

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

coop,

i am no longer going to take the time to give you scripture upon scripture because you mock at the word of God and now you have declared that there is more than one gospel of salvation.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

because of your needing to fit the scriptures into the false doctrine you have believed, you have made a doctrine that makes more than one gospel of salvation- OR you have declared that the angel mid week is accursed and preaching a false gospel.

and the problem is not with the dispensation. the problem is with you believing that outside of that dispensation people can be saved- and that that dispensation ends pre trib and leaves out the remnant of jews to be grafted back into the only true vine, the only olive tree, the only saved body of people.


I pray the Lord will build you up on all truth and remove all mens traditions from your mind

 

[lecoop]

coop,

i am no longer going to take the time to give you scripture upon scripture because you mock at the word of God and now you have declared that there is more than one gospel of salvation.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

because of your needing to fit the scriptures into the false doctrine you have believed, you have made a doctrine that makes more than one gospel of salvation- OR you have declared that the angel mid week is accursed and preaching a false gospel.

and the problem is not with the dispensation. the problem is with you believing that outside of that dispensation people can be saved- and that that dispensation ends pre trib and leaves out the remnant of jews to be grafted back into the only true vine, the only olive tree, the only saved body of people.


I pray the Lord will build you up on all truth and remove all mens traditions from your mind

Why don't you, for ONCE show us in scripture HOW, WHEN, and WHERE the remnant are born again, and HOW they get to the Marriage Supper, in heaven?

I suspect you have not, because you are cannot. Prove me wrong. Did you not read?

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man...

You seem to think that the church door will be open forever. Can you find THAT in scripture? Do you imagine all those born during the 1000 year reign will be born again?

Coop

 

[Sinthesis]

In the process of time SOME of the Kingdom of Judah were allowed to return to Jerusalem, most did not. So this small contingent of the Tribe of Judah stayed in Jerusalem and intermarried with the Babylonians, as well as the Edomites (sons of Esau Jacob/Israels’s brother by Isaac) and the Kenites (sons of Cain, which was the son of the serpent/satan {Gen 3:15}). These formed their own religion that was much different than the Old Testament religion of the Hebrews. These who are now called "Jews" added to the Old Testament Scriptures their own "Oral Law" called Talmud. This of course was a corruption of God’s Old Testament religion and the work of satan.

:onfire Poof goes your credibility.

 

[veteran]

In the process of time SOME of the Kingdom of Judah were allowed to return to Jerusalem, most did not. So this small contingent of the Tribe of Judah stayed in Jerusalem and intermarried with the Babylonians, as well as the Edomites (sons of Esau Jacob/Israels’s brother by Isaac) and the Kenites (sons of Cain, which was the son of the serpent/satan {Gen 3:15}). These formed their own religion that was much different than the Old Testament religion of the Hebrews. These who are now called "Jews" added to the Old Testament Scriptures their own "Oral Law" called Talmud. This of course was a corruption of God’s Old Testament religion and the work of satan.

:onfire Poof goes your credibility.

Not all of what onelove said is wrong. So credibility of those who don't know their Bible history also comes into that.

God did split old Israel into two specific kingdoms after Solomon's days (per 1 Kings 11 forward). And He setup a separate king named Jeroboam (of Ephraim) over the ten tribed northern kingdom called the "house of Israel". The "house of Judah" made up the southern kingdom of just two tribes, that of Judah and Benjamin (and most of Levi later per 2 Chronicles 11). It's true after the split the tribed kingdom of the "house of Israel" was primarily called Israel, while the southern kingdom in Judea was mainly called Judah (Judea).

Some of the northern Israelites moved south to take up with Judah in that time, not wanting to take part in Jeroboam's rule and false golden calf worship he setup in the north at the cities of Bethel and Dan. Jeroboam setup common priests of the people in the north, which caused the Levites in the north to move to Judea and side with Judah and Benjamin. When Rehoboam (Solomon's son of the house of David) king of Judah gathered the fighting men of Judah and Benjamin to go north to end Jereboam's kingship, God sent a message to Rehoboam to stop it and said this split of the kingdom of Israel in two was of Him (1 Kings 12).

The southern and northern kingdoms warred against each other after that. Because of how Israel (ten tribes in the north then) fell away to idol worship and abominations, God brought the king of Assyria upon them, and removed all the ten tribes captive to the land of the Medes. Strangers from five provinces of Babylon were put in the northern lands of Israel in place of the ten tribes (2 Kings 17). That's officially per God's Word when Israel of old ceased being a nation in the holy land. Only Judah and Benjamin and Levi remained, with the majority of Israel taken captive out of the holy land.

Around 120 years later, the kingdom of Judah at Jerusalem also fell away from God to do abominations. That was the time of Jeremiah the prophet. God brought king Nebuchandnezzar of Babylon upon Judea to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, and he took the house of Judah captive to Babylon. Only the poorest of people remained in Judea. Jeremiah was taken captive by another band into Egypt, along with the king's daughters in his care. This was the 70 years captivity to Babylon of Daniel's time, and it involved the tribes of Benjamin, Judah, and Levi only, except for a small remnant of the ten tribes that moved to Judea from the original split of Israel. This is why the woman Anna from the tribe of Asher in Luke 2:36 is not enough proof that all 12 twelves of Israel were joined back together.

After the 70 years Babylon captivity of the house of Judah (Judah, Benjamin, and Levi only), a small remnant of those returned with the scribe Ezra to Jerusalem, to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. The MAJORITY of those three tribes did choose to remain in Babylon. God said He would protect them during that captivity to Babylon, and their numbers actually multiplied while captive. Many of them got comfortable in Babylon and stayed, only to be further scattered through the countries later (Ezek.3). During the captivity is when they began to use Aramaic as the primary language instead of Hebrew. It was also when the Babylonian Talmud writings of oral tradition were put down, a sage-like tradition among the priests separate from God's Word. And the priests began to follow that Talmudic tradition primarily, creating other non-Biblical traditions along with it, which Christ would later point out.

Ezra 1 & 2 reveals which tribal remnants returned to Jerusalem. He listend members only from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Even in Ezra 8 he looked at the people returning and didn't see any of the sons of Levi returning. So he sent a Nethinim priest back to Babylon to get Levitical priests. The Nethinims were temple servants that had crept in from the old bondservants in Solomon's days. They were from the nations of Canaan which Israel was not able to fully destroy (1 Kings 9:20-22).

In Ezra 9, he was told how the people, the priests, and the Levites had taken wives of the Canaanite peoples, and had taken up many of their ways, the princes and rulers being the chief violaters. Ezra sat down and cried, and later made them promise to put away those wives and children (separate them from the congregation). A day was fixed to do that, all the men of Judah and Benjamin gathered in one place to settle the matter, and it began raining.

The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said in that small remnant's return to Jerusalem, those first began then to call theirselves by the name 'Jew'. He said the word comes from the tribe of Judah who first inhabited that area around Jerusalem. He said that name became an appellation for all those living in Judea, which means those of non-Israelite lineage among them also began to call themselves by the title of Jew. He said the return of that small remant from Babylon is when that title of Jew first began to be used. I think it may have also been used prior to that, when God separated Israel in two separate kingdoms. Most likely those of Judah and Benjamin used it to distinguish themselves from the northern ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel.

The word Jew later also became a word used specifically for the religious traditions of that group of priests that came out of the Babylon captivity. Apostle Paul made a distinction between the religion of the Pharisee traditions and Old Testament Holy Writ. He showed it was specifically the traditions of the Pharisees that misled him, showing a distinction of their religiious traditions of Talmudic origin during the Babyonian captivity corruptions by influence from joining with foreign peoples:

Ezra 9:1-3
1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.
2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.
3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied.
(KJV)

Remember, the main reason God told Israel not to take wives of those nations was because of how it would turn their hearts away from Him and instead towards their many gods into false worship. Thus God's Word in the Book of Ezra (and Nehemiah) shows direct evidence of a corruption of the priesthood by the Babylonian 70 years captivity. God kept His promise to Israel of Deuteronomy 4 that if Israel fell away from Him to false worship, He would bring curses upon them and scatter them among the nations, and let the nations rule over them. So after the 70 years Babylon captivity of the "house of Judah", God still did not return Israel to its original glory and state, even as it still is to this day. Many of His people are still rebellious against Him today.

Because Edom wouldn't allow Israel passage out of the wilderness, God pronounced destruction of Edom, and He caused it per history. Edom was a nation southeast of Judea down to the Gulf of Acaba. After Judea fell to Nebuchadnezzar, many of Edom (Idumeans) began trekking into Judea to live. Judas Maccabeus subdued the Edomites living in Judea and John Hyrcanus forced them to be circumcised, and they became Jews. The Herods during the days of John the Baptist were of Edomite lineage, even as some Idumeans later became Jewish high priests (per Jewish historian Josephus).