The Antichrist compared to the Catholic pseudo church

[jasoncran]

your pro-isreal right? and the rcc wasnt the only christian faith in america at the time of the civil war.puritans become the calvinists and anabaptists and baptists and also others were in that time period. and i'm sure they too were on both sides on the fence, now then be fair and condemn them too.

why isreal the nation that prosecutes the nazi war criminal exonerated the catholic faith?sure in the past the rcc and the protestant killed jews but in 1940s the rcc as a whole faith wasnt involved, sure some members but it wasnt offical policy to do that.

 

[jasoncran]

I did. You do not recall correctly. Here is one excerpt:

In other words, "No one knows." But what Foxe was able to glean from sparse records, he wrote here:

Hardly the "150 million" you hyped in the quote above.

No, if it were even only 1! However, the problem I have with the anti-Catholic, anti-Papist crowd here is that you're still holding the Catholic Church - its priests, popes and parishioners - guilty for crimes and sins committed HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO!

If the Catholic Church is "Mystery Babylon" and the Pope is "the Antichrist", then God must have "missed the boat" in rapturing the "true church", because the inquisitons lasted hundreds of years (NOT 7!) and finally officially ceased all over the world during Queen Elizabeth's reign (although they had ended in practice much earlier!)

On the other hand, few protestants recall the "protestant inquisitions."

Neither side is guiltless when it comes to the shedding of innocent blood. If we were to apply your standard to protestants today for the sins of the reformers, you would have to bear the same shame and guilt as that which you want to dump on Catholics!

But I suspect the worldview you espouse is too "simple" to accommodate such nuanced thinking.

One more thing while I'm at it: simply quoting a bunch of unrelated, out-of-context Bible references and quotes does not advance your arguments.

For what it's worth.

i am aware of the protestant inquistions, i believe the calvinists were guilty of that. you knows it stupid for the brethren to infight over this when this is the past

 

[Pard]

I've been looking for anything on the "protestant inquisition" that isn't from a blatantly RCC site, and no luck. Not even secular websites have anything on it. That tells me it probably is something that was cobbled together by the RCC to try and out blunder their own errors. Was it the witch hunts? Was it the killings done by Calvinists? Was it the killings led by Protestant kings and queens from England?

Give me a creditable link that isn't out to simply destroy the name of Protestants and then we can talk about it.

And Elijah, I think those last two posts are the first posts of yours I have been able to understand in a VERY long time!

It seems to me that Elijah and AKJV are coming upon a wall here. I think the case for the RCC being the antiChrist is kind of out the window at this point, however I would agree that it is heretical in its teachings. So are many other institutions that cry "Jesus! Jesus!". Such is reality. It doesn't mean we have to scream "ANTICHRIST!" and point the finger every time one of these heretical institutions comes along. A bit more discretion should be taken. Especially because the RCC just doesn't fiti the antiChrist check list.

 

[Pizzaguy]

i am aware of the protestant inquistions, i believe the calvinists were guilty of that. you knows it stupid for the brethren to infight over this when this is the past

THIS IS DIRECTED NOT TO JASON, but is a response to his post none the less.

I just happened to have gone to bed early last night (around 6:30 pm), I was very tired and ended up waking around 1am. I have no idea how or why, but I ended up reading up on the various methods of execution and torture over the past 1500 years. (Can't remember WHY I was reading all of this). This morning, I find this thread and something occurs to me....

We might all do well to remind ourselves of the world people lived in until very recently. As little as 200 years ago, it was common to be burnt at the stake for heresy (as judged by the KING, not the church).

Galileo was terrified of being tortured, however, it was CHURCH LAW that made it illegal to torture a man of his age.

Torture (or threat of it) was commonly used on prisoners of war, those in debt, those suspected of witchcraft or heresy, or being disloyal to "the crown". Go read up on torture and the methods and instruments of it. You will find references to how each was used by the various entities over the past few thousand years.

What I am saying is, it was the times people were living in that led to it. The more cruel forms of execution were practiced, in Great Britain, right up to the industrial revolution (from Wiki):

The Royal Commission on Capital Punishment 1864-1866 recommended that there be no change to treason law, quoting the "more merciful" Treason Felony Act 1848, which limited the punishment for most treasonous acts to penal servitude. Its report recommended that for "rebellion, assassination or other violence ...we are of opinion that the extreme penalty must remain",[82] although the most recent occasion (and ultimately, the last) on which anyone had been sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered was in November 1839, following the ChartistNewport Rising—and those men sentenced to death were instead transported.[83]Industrial Revolution). The report highlighted the changing public mood toward public executions (brought about in part by the growing prosperity created by the industrial revolution).

(Emphasis mine.) My point here is that it was not RELIGION that led to all of this, it was the societal mindset of the times.

I found the wiki entry for "Hanged, Drawn and quartered" (from which the above quote was taken) to be very eye-opening. The fact is, the church's cruelty over the past 1,000 or more years pales in comparison to society's cruelty overall. I challenge you to read (if you can take it) the descriptions of the executions of Catholic Priests over the past several hundred years, at the hands of, well, those against the Catholic church.

FRANCIS, I see you reading this - I am FINALLY done editing, it is now 36 mins past the hour!

 

[handy]

As a former Calvinist and now Lutheran, I have to admit that neither of the great Reformers hands were clean as far as torture and persecution of those who didn't follow their teachings in the cities and countries that they gained power in.

Study the history of the Anabaptists and you'll see what I mean.

Sad, very sad and a reproach upon the Body of Christ. One we all share fairly equally in, unless one is indeed an Anabaptist, who have no history of persecuting those who do not agree with them.

 

[Elijah674]

Show me the chapter and verse that specifically warns us about the Catholic Church.

In the meantime, how many Christians has the RCC killed in the last 50 years? 100 years? 150 years?? 200 years???

You're fighting a battle that's been over for 200 years and guess what: you need to get over it, too!



Have Protestants ever apologized for all the Christians they killed???

But nevertheless, you appear to me to be someone so embittered by their hatred of the Catholic Church, that no amount of reasoning with you will do any good.

Therefore, I'm through trying.

You miss the point of Christ completely. Pay attention! There is the First Death & then there is the ETERNAL SECOND DEATH. Obad. 1:16

OK: it is the FALSE TEACHING that will find these ones of Rev. 17:1-5 that will FILL much of HELL with Eternal DEATH! [[GONE FOR ALL OF ETEDRNITY!]] Those are the ones that Christ is WARNING AGAINST! (see Matt. 10 verse 20 & verse 27 for His Words! And Rev. 17:1-5 ARE HIS TRUTHS OF WARNING ALSO!)

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, I am reading this now, as you say...

I was an avid military historian before becoming Christian. You have spoken words of wisdom in this post. We shouldn't judge people of 500 years ago using our standards. What was acceptable to them, whether the laws of warfare or whether it was acceptable to kill old men/women and unborn children (yea, the Medievals would have likely lined up to condemn THIS age...), the point is made. Warfare on the Italian peninsula during the 1400's was VASTLY different than warfare during the 20th century - are we in a position to judge anyone???

And of course, non Catholic Christians were certainly acting "ordinarily" as they did the very same things in Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and England during the 16-17th centuries, as Catholic practices were expunged from these lands, often very viciously. Have we forgotten the very idea of the first Amendment in THIS country and why it came to be? For this very reason... NO STATE RELIGION.

The mindset of people in the 15th century was indeed different than ours because there WAS no separation of church and state. Any attack on religion was seen as an attack on the state, as well. When society in general is Christian, and say, the Hugenonts come along and propose a radically different lifestyle that is counter to the Catholic way of life (such as the sanctity of marriage...), is it difficult to see that the STATE will also have a vested interest in protecting ITSELF? And thus, it is not surprising to see Hugenonts being punished by the State, just as today, Muslim radicals are being punished by the state for THEIR crimes against society.

People need to take such things into account before bumping their keyboards and proclaiming the "evils" of a time long gone. We aren't in a position to make such judgments. And when people bring this up, I cannot help but think of a particular section of Scriptures that very few people like to bring up...

Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Acts 5:1-5

This, to me, has relevance to the topic at hand, suffering 'at the hands of the Church'...

Comments?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You miss the point of Christ completely. Pay attention! There is the First Death & then there is the ETERNAL SECOND DEATH. Obad. 1:16

OK: it is the FALSE TEACHING that will find these ones of Rev. 17:1-5 that will FILL much of HELL with Eternal DEATH! [[GONE FOR ALL OF ETEDRNITY!]] Those are the ones that Christ is WARNING AGAINST! (see Matt. 10 verse 20 & verse 27 for His Words! And Rev. 17:1-5 ARE HIS TRUTHS OF WARNING ALSO!)

--Elijah

I think you are missing the point, to equate Rev 17 with ANY current Christian religion. Clearly, the "whore" is the pagan Roman Empire, who persecuted Christians in the Colliseum as John was writing the Apocalypse.

Christ is not "warning us" against other Christians, Christians who believe many of the same things, such as "the Son of God came in the flesh". He is warning us against returning to our former ways, the ways of the flesh.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

As a former Calvinist and now Lutheran, I have to admit that neither of the great Reformers hands were clean as far as torture and persecution of those who didn't follow their teachings in the cities and countries that they gained power in.

Study the history of the Anabaptists and you'll see what I mean.

Sad, very sad and a reproach upon the Body of Christ. One we all share fairly equally in, unless one is indeed an Anabaptist, who have no history of persecuting those who do not agree with them.

Hi, just a question about Anabaptist. On another site there is such a one. And he uses Rom. 13 for it being OK to put Caesar above ones convictions in killing in the time of war. (brother killing brother if that is what it comes to)

Do you know of what stand they take on that Rom. 13 chapter?
Thanks in advance.
--Elijah

PS: And No they are not the only Church denomination who had not used persecution & torture in the [past.]

 

[Elijah674]

I think you are missing the point, to equate Rev 17 with ANY current Christian religion. Clearly, the "whore" is the pagan Roman Empire, who persecuted Christians in the Colliseum as John was writing the Apocalypse.

Christ is not "warning us" against other Christians, Christians who believe many of the same things, such as "the Son of God came in the flesh". He is warning us against returning to our former ways, the ways of the flesh.

Regards

Hi, we have been WARNED by the 'MODS', so 'i' will just say it as is a little more heartfelt & in clearity? I STILL SEE THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH [[PAGAN]]. But that has nothing meant of a personal remark!

And again, FORUM + MODS, that means absolutely nothing personal meant. (this has NO names, & is just a post about posted material, for who knows anyones heart??) But the teachings are as the Rev. 17:1-5 verses document.

Yet, still inside the total verse their membership is called what it is! Christ say's that He has His own being PARTAKERS of all of the daily 'OPEN' documented SINS. Rev. 18:4.

And Christ could say it NO more plain than that of Josh. 7:12's last part of the verse. '.. NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU ANY MORE EXCEPT YE DESTROY THE ACCURSED FROM AMONG YOU.' And the church pope has the key's to the [church] they even falsely teach. (+ all of the other ex/protestant false stuff still being taught for truth. even check this site for what was once known as protestant?? just perhaps rome has jesuits even as hiden mods?? for one no named one called Fran & myself brothers)

And that 'Inspiration' goes for all of daughter's of rome as well.

--Elijah

 

[handy]

PS: And No they are not the only Church denomination who had not used persecution & torture in the [past.]

I'd be curious as to what other churches besides those of Anabaptist persuasion didn't...at least back in the time frame we're looking at...

I know that the Amish, Brethren and Mennonites all trace their roots to the Anabaptists, as would almost any church that believe in believer's baptism as opposed to infant baptism, separation of church and state, pacifism, the priesthood of all believers and freedom of religion.


As far as your question, no, I really don't know too much about specific Anabaptist theology.

 

[reba]

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Does the RCC denienth the Father and the Son?


1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist

Does the RCC confesseth not the Jesus Christ is come in the flesh?

Above is the KING JAMES approved, definition of antichrist show me where the RCC fits the discription

 

[handy]

Reba!

 

[Pard]

Can't be the Pope. All of those points you made in the first post must be true and not all of them are or ever will be. Rome isn't Babylon. Baghdad is Babylon, and I mean that literally. Rome has seven hills, but the seven hills in the Bible are not real hills, they are empires.

Here is the mind that is having wisdom; the seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman doth sit,

Rev 17:9

OK 7 hills, yeah? Read on...

and there are seven kings, the five did fall, and the one is, the other did not yet come, and when he may come, it behoveth him to remain a little time;

Rev 17:10

The "hills" are really kings,and kings mean empires/kingdoms.

Besides all that...

in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is, and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already.

1John 4:2-3

We shall know the antichrist when we see him. He shall not confess Jesus, and yet the pope does.

 

[Igor]

Someone in this thread said the RCC has never apologized for the atrocities committed in the inquisitions, crusades, etc. I'm not Catholic and never have been, but in fairness I would like to post this quote from Pope Paul:

The institution of the Inquisition has been abolished...the children of the Church cannot but return with a spirit of repentance to the acquiescence given, especially in certain centuries, to intolerance and even the use of violence in the service of the truth.

This spirit of repentance, it is clear, entails a firm determination to seek in the future ways to bear witness to the truth that are in keeping with the Gospel.

The prayer I addressed to God on that occasion contains the reasons for a request for forgiveness that can also be applied to the tragedies associated with the Inquisition, as well as to the injuries to memory that result from it.

"Lord, God of all men and women, in certain periods of history, Christians have at times given in to [forms of] intolerance and have not been faithful to the great commandment of love, sullying in this way the face of the Church, your Spouse. Have mercy on your sinful children and accept our resolve to seek and promote truth in the gentleness of charity, in the firm knowledge that truth can prevail only in virtue of truth itself. We ask this through Christ Our Lord"
​

(Prayer for Forgiveness, Day of Pardon, 12 March, II; ORE, 22 March 2000, p.).
JOHN PAUL II, From the Vatican, 15 June 2004
​

In fairness to Catholics, that seems more of an apology and admission of wrongdoing than anything I have seen from other parts of Christianity that committed the same atrocities throughout history!

 

[francisdesales]

And Christ could say it NO more plain than that of Josh. 7:12's last part of the verse. '.. NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU ANY MORE EXCEPT YE DESTROY THE ACCURSED FROM AMONG YOU.' And the church pope has the key's to the [church] they even falsely teach.

You must be joking. Here, I'll even write this in multi-colors so you can understand this...

You call Josh 7:12 as "plain" wording towards the pope???

I'd say one could just as "plainly" note that YOU are the one "accursed" among us Christians, with your attempt to tie ambiguous Scriptures to the Catholic Church, which has for 2000 years preached Christ crucified...

Note how Paul writes that such as YOU are the ones who will be destroyed in 1 Cor 3:17, in your silly attempt to destroy the Temple of the Lord... One could thus apply Josh 7 to you personally, Elijah...

for one no named one called Fran & myself brothers)

And that 'Inspiration' goes for all of daughter's of rome as well.

Francis is also a man's name, can't you figure that out by the avatar? 2 So much for not getting personal.

 

[Elijah674]

Above is the KING JAMES approved, definition of antichrist show me where the RCC fits the discription

How can anyone not use the COMPLETE Book (all 66) to understand what the devil has always used for his church??? Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16. rome is only the last anti/christ church & was not even found (LAST ONE!) until God permited for its DEADLY WOUND to be healed. (Rev. 13:3) But are we to EVER BELIEVE that satan did not have a church (call it what it was??) for his converts? Gen. 4:7 finds his FIRST FULLFLEGED SIN AGAINST CHRIST IN PERSON [CONVERT]!

That is where the Gen. 6:3 ones came from! At Cain's killing of Abel, God even gave satan through Cain a 120 year headstart befor another replacement in Abel came on the seen. In Seth being another Obedient Son. And the Holy Spirit could not move them either, (pre/flood lost ones) even with another 120 years of HIS STRIVING along with Noah's preaching. Read again Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 for The ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH ONES!

The Thread is asking for only a COMPARED likeness. And here above we see that satan has always wanted worship. Matt. 4:8-9 FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP ME AND I WILL GIVE ALL OF THESE THINGS, he told the CENTER/PIECE OF ETERNITES GOSPEL, JESUS CHRIST! Rev. 14:6 (bottom/line)

And all that rome is?? is amany member stooge in satan's FINISH. And that is seen from start to finish! Obad. 1:15-16

--Elijah

 

[handy]

Then there is this: Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (KJV)

hmmm, seems to me someone preached on this just this past Sunday:

"...in his death and resurrection, Jesus Christ has freed us from the radical slavery of sin and opened for us the way towards the promised land, the Kingdom of God, the universal Kingdom of justice, love and peace. This “exodus†takes place first of all within man himself, and it consists in a new birth in the Holy Spirit, the effect of the baptism that Christ has given us in his Paschal Mystery. The old man yields his place to the new man; the old life is left behind, and a new life can begin (cf. Rom 6:4)."

and later

"I pray to the Lord Jesus that in the Middle East, and especially in the land sanctified by his death and resurrection, the peoples will accomplish a true and definitive “exodus†from war and violence to peace and concord. "

Who is this that proclaims Jesus is the Christ who died, yet was resurrected and who calls Jesus "Lord"?

Yep, Pope Benedict.

 

[handy]

And here above we see that satan has always wanted worship. Matt. 4:8-9 FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP ME AND I WILL GIVE ALL OF THESE THINGS, he told the CENTER/PIECE OF ETERNITES GOSPEL, JESUS CHRIST! Rev. 14:6 (bottom/line)

True...Satan does desire worship...and is probably insanely jealous enough to not want those who supposedly worship him to be calling out Jesus' name in worship or proclaiming Jesus to be Messiah, resurrected and sitting at the right hand of the Father.

Or, are we to be like the Pharisees who claimed that Jesus cast out demons by the power of demons, and say that the Pope proclaims Jesus by the power of Satan....

...that, my friend is what is truly .

 

[Pizzaguy]

You must be joking. Here, I'll even write this in multi-colors so you can understand this...

Oh, that was funny! ROFL! ! !

for one no named one called Fran & myself brothers

What does that sentence even MEAN?

Francis is also a man's name, can't you figure that out by the avatar? 2 So much for not getting personal.

Stick to the high ground, Francis. You are winning anyway.