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The Apocalypse is fake?!

Degas said:
The next verse (Matthew 4:10) makes it clear that Jesus rejected Satan's offer so Jesus never possessed "all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor" 😠 He will some day, but he hasn't yet.
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God the Father still retains the ultimate authority over everything that He has created. Jesus didn't want the material world at that time. He had a different mission to do. He wants the spiritual world and I saw a new Heaven and a new earth...and it says in scripture that All has been given to Jesus after his resurection.

Read the OT Job. Satan and his minions have to stand in line and basically go to court to gain permission to sift you. Which is why the say he stands accusing you day and night, it's a court hearing. Does that sound to you like it was even his to offer to give away to Jesus?! The boy was lying right there! Lol.

Sometimes God says yes, sift them, but spare their life, or whatever. when He is trying to get your attention. Because there are no athieists in Foxholes! Or He may just be testing your faith.

...Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tested. (That's where we are right now.)
 
If you was talking about possessing the land over there on this earth, well that was promised to the Israelite people from way back, and King David will rule that region also as promised to him (them). I suppose that has to happen at the Millenial reign of Christ.
 
JLB said:
Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-6
  • Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14 is clearly about the second coming of Christ, when He returns with the armies of heaven, including His saints to gather His people at the resurrection and destroy the wicked from the earth.

Jesus was teaching His disciples from this passage on the mount of Olives, when they asked Him about the end of the age.

JLB
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In Christ, we realize this unbelieving world has always been "gathered together" against Gods' people.
Jesus fought and overcame all his enemies . The outpouring of his Spirit began at Pentecost and continues. By worshipping our Lord in our temporary bodies as we gather in the harvest, we are celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles. This is what Zech.14 is about.
 
for_his_glory said:
It is only when sin is taken out of this world is when it will be pure again and the kingdoms of God will be His own once again as in how He created it in the beginning.


2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Thess 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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Sin isn't going to be completely taken from this world until our Savior returns in an all consuming fire which destroys every person who doesn't know and obey him,

you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2:Thes.2:7-8
 
for_his_glory said:
When Christ returns in the air on the last day we are then caught up to meet Him in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord as He has made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth as we rule with Him over the nations as His enemies have become His footstool in the end of days, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; Rev 5:10; Psalms 110:1-4; Hebrews 10:12, 13.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 19:11-21 Jesus descends down from heaven with His army of the host (angels) of heaven as while remaining in the air He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him. He will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them alive into the lake of fire, Rev 19:15, 16. The remnant in Rev 19:21 are the world leaders of every nation on the earth that have followed after the beast that rules their government. The remnant will be slain by the very words Jesus speaks of their damnation as the fowls will be filled with their flesh and at that time Satan will be chained and bound so he can not interfere with the ungodly people that are still alive on earth that become the footstool of Christ. Then the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and He shall reign for ever and the saints will begin to rule over the nations here on earth, Rev 11:15; 5:10; 20:1-3; Matthew 5:5.

Rev 20:7-10 Those that have rejected Christ that still remain on earth after the beast, false prophet and all the ruling leaders from every nation that followed after the beast are destroyed are those who are the numbering as the sand of the sea. These are the enemy of God that Satan uses to battle against the saints during the battle of Armageddon that are camped upon the breadth of the earth after Satan is released for a season, Psalms 2:7-10; 110; Ezekiel 36; 37; Rev 20:7-9. The saints are camped not only in Jerusalem the beloved city of God, but also throughout the breadth of the earth. It's only the 144,000 generational Jews that believe in Christ that have returned to Jerusalem. After the 1000 years are fulfilled Satan is set loosed for a season and goes out to deceive the nations as he gathers the enemies of Christ to battle against the saints as the numbering of unbelievers is like the sand of the sea. As the enemy surrounds the camp of the saints God sends fire down from heaven and destroys the enemy and Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Zechariah 14; Luke 21:20-22 and Rev 16:16 mentions the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return as Christ plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle as Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9.
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Sin isn't going to be completely taken from this world until our Savior returns in an all consuming fire which destroys every person who doesn't know and obey him,

Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 2Pet.3:11-12

Peter is warning believers. Once the gospel has been preached in all this world, that's the end of it. Life isn't going to continue for any ungodly after that.
Confusion occurs when we try to understand "Jesus going to battle", "Satan being bound" and "saints reigning over the earth" with human understanding.
You know the weapons of Christs' warfare aren't man made and we go to war the way he did. Jesus reigned over people in perfect mercy and longsuffering and we do the same following him. Jesus bound Satan and plundered his house is and continues to do so by recovering sinners by faith in him through believers preaching the gospel.
Rev.19 and 20 aren't different. They're just being described in two different ways.
 
journeyman said:
In Christ, we realize this unbelieving world has always been "gathered together" against Gods' people.
Jesus fought and overcame all his enemies . The outpouring of his Spirit began at Pentecost and continues. By worshipping our Lord in our temporary bodies as we gather in the harvest, we are celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles. This is what Zech.14 is about.
Click to expand...

Zechariah 14 is about the Day of the Lord, and the return of the Lord Jesus Christ with the saints at the end of this age, to conquer His enemies and take His place in Jerusalem as King over all the earth.

Contextually we understand this from verse 1.


  • Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. Zechariah 14:1


The day of the Lord is unquestionably the day when Jesus Christ returns to put an end to all other rule and authority, in which the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord.


  • Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5


This is associated with the resurrection of the dead in which the returning saints with Him will receive their resurrected glorified bodies, in which those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them. This on the last day, the Day of the Lord when he returns to destroy the wicked and none shall escape.


It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
Zechariah 14:6-7


Jesus taught from Zechariah 14 on the mount of Olives when He was asked… “what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

He explained that the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars would fall from heaven, which is what Zechariah is describing in verse 6-7 above.



And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”
And His name one.
Zechariah 14:9



Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” Revelation 11:15



For the earth will be filled
With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD,
As the waters cover the sea.
Habakuk 2:14






JLB
 
JLB said:
Zechariah 14 is about the Day of the Lord, and the return of the Lord Jesus Christ with the saints at the end of this age, to conquer His enemies and take His place in Jerusalem as King over all the earth.

Contextually we understand this from verse 1.


  • Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. Zechariah 14:1


The day of the Lord is unquestionably the day when Jesus Christ returns to put an end to all other rule and authority, in which the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord.


  • Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5


This is associated with the resurrection of the dead in which the returning saints with Him will receive their resurrected glorified bodies, in which those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them. This on the last day, the Day of the Lord when he returns to destroy the wicked and none shall escape.


It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
Zechariah 14:6-7


Jesus taught from Zechariah 14 on the mount of Olives when He was asked… “what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

He explained that the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars would fall from heaven, which is what Zechariah is describing in verse 6-7 above.



And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”
And His name one.
Zechariah 14:9



Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” Revelation 11:15



For the earth will be filled
With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD,
As the waters cover the sea.
Habakuk 2:14






JLB
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From the NT passages I cited, contextually Zech 14 cannot be referring to our Lords' return in person, because when he appears in person again, this universe is going to be arranged in a way that won't allow it.
It's true that believers are persecuted, but never cut off from the new Jerusalem. Jesus fought the devil and his followers and defeated them when he rosr from death. He didn't even need to do that to defeat his enemies, except for showing us that he's above all and always has been.
In Acts 2:20, Peter quoted as a current reality the OT, where the sun would be darkened, that is, our Lord would be spoken of as evil and the moon also, as his followers are persecuted.
Our Lord is King over all the earth. He is always has been. We simply didn't know it. We now understand that God is One with the Messiah.
Hab.2:14 is also a current reality, as the knowledge of God fills the earth by the gospel.
Please look at the passagef I cited. The war is being waged now. When our blessed King returns, the war is over.
 
journeyman said:
From the NT passages I cited, contextually Zech 14 cannot be referring to our Lords' return in person, because when he appears in person again, this universe is going to be arranged in a way that won't allow it.
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It seems to be talking about the 2nd coming after the great tribulation and that's when Jesis rules on the earth for 1000 years.

The entire earth will be restored to the same condition that it was in at the Garden of Eden...with two exceptions!

Do you know what the two exceptions are? (what will be different?)
 
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Degas said:
The problem is no one can take sin out of this world by intellectual understanding. God is infinite! How could any human mind grasp Their will? Only spiritual practice can take us to a place where we spontaneously do not sin yet most Christians give way too much importance to faith and knowledge.
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Where did I say anything about sin being taken out by intellectual understanding? Sin will always remain in this world until Christ returns and by the brightness of His coming will make an end to all transgressions casting it all into the lake of fire, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12: Rev 19:11-21; 20:7-10.
 
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Degas said:
Christians give way too much importance to faith and knowledge.
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Faith and knowledge is what Christians need more of especially when it comes to end times that even now is unfolding before us so we will not be taken as a thief in the night. It's called being prepared for that which must come first before Christ returns on the last day.
 
journeyman said:
Sin isn't going to be completely taken from this world until our Savior returns in an all consuming fire which destroys every person who doesn't know and obey him,

you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2:Thes.2:7-8
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Oops!!! I agree as I should had said until Jesus returns and then makes an end to all transgressions in this world.
 
The literal title for the book of Revelation in the Greek is "Apocalypse of John". The word apocalypse means revelation, that which is uncovered.

The first battle mention in scripture is found in Genesis 14:1-24. Shinar, Ellasar and Elam became known later in scripture as being Babylon, which is now modern day Iraq. These kings have always fought and taken captive Gods covenant people starting with Lot who was Abraham's nephew in whom Abraham took his army and fought against these four eastern kings and defeated them. This first battle was about controlling power, greed and monopoly on international trade (economics) as they tried to defeat everyone who opposed them as they took captive not only possessions from others, but also held them captive those who would not bow down to their false gods. As history repeats itself this same ruling Empire that has exisited since the time of Abraham and going clear back to Nimrod and the Tower of Babel will also take place in the end of days when the beast rises out of the sea and gives power to the beast out of the earth who will exercise all the power of the first beast before him. The beast out of the earth will have ruling power given to him by the beast out of the sea in a New World Order controlling political, economic, educational and false religious systems, Rev Chapter 13.

We know how history repeats itself as Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times as these eastern kings will always try to take posession of what God gave to Abraham through the covenant God made with him in Genesis 12:1-3 and all his generation after him. This will continue until the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40, as these four kings are that of the controlling power within the four nations Daniel speaks of in Daniel Chapter 7 with the last one that received a deadly wound, but the wound has been healed, Revelation 13:3. The four nations are: Babylonian Empire: Iraq (the lion), Medo, Persian Empire: Iran (the ribs of the bear), Grecian Empire: (Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) four wings of the leopard, Roman Empire: (Iron represents the stronghold this nation had and still has). Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.

The beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. The beast was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies and power was given unto him to continue for three and a half years which equals 1260 days, Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 11:2, 3. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them and power was given him over all kindred’s, and tongues, and nations as this beast is the same as the four eastern kings found in Genesis 14:1-24 and Daniel Chapter 7.

Notice the fourth king in Genesis 14:1 was king over many nations as Satan worked through him as well as the other three kings, Genesis 14:14:1. This is the same with the beast out of the earth, that is the son of perdition/last antichrist) that Satan works through who will try to devour all those of faith in God and His Son Christ Jesus, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12; Rev 13:11-18. Daniel 7:24, 25 and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, He will think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time (3 1/2 years). This fourth king (beast out of the earth) whose deadly wound came in 1798 and the wound was healed in 1929 is even now plotting for economic, political, military and religious control as he is the son of perdition who is the last false prophet (antichrist) who by lying signs and wonders will cause a great falling away from God, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 in as much as he can deceive the very elect if possible, Matthew 24:24.
 
Edward said:
Because He took them in the rapture, right? And they went to the Marriage supper of the Lamb and then return to earth with Him for His 2nd coming...?
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?

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture take place at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection happens first, then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them. This is where the Church is gathered together unto the Lord.

  • And the dead in Christ will rise first. (On the last day)
  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18


Once the Church is gathered together in the air with the Lord, high above the earth, then the Lord will rain destruction down on the wicked and none of them will escape.

This is called the Day of the Lord!


But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3


  • then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.


The antichrist will also be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.



And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8



Here are the three main things that will happen at His coming:


In order: on the last day.

  1. The Resurrection
  2. The Rapture
  3. The destruction of the wicked including the antichrist



Do we agree on these points?





JLB
 
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for_his_glory said:
Where did I say anything about sin being taken out by intellectual understanding? Sin will always remain in this world until Christ returns and by the brightness of His coming will make an end to all transgressions casting it all into the lake of fire, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12: Rev 19:11-21; 20:7-10.
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This seems to be his m.o.

He posts an answer to something we never said, then turns around and says how “spiritually dishonest“ we are.


Not going to fly. I have already given him one warning.




JLB
 
JLB said:
  • And the dead in Christ will rise first. (On the last day)
  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
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But there's two resurrections. This one is first and is the rapture of the Bride. Then there's a 2nd resurrection, the resurrection unto condemnation, right?
 
Edward said:
But there's two resurrections. This one is first and is the rapture of the Bride. Then there's a 2nd resurrection, the resurrection unto condemnation, right?
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The resurrection of the dead in Christ and rapture are one event that take place at His coming… But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.


Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4-6




JLB
 
Edward said:
So...the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is going to be at a drive through and done very fast? :lol
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From what I read the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place on earth after the wicked are removed.
 
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