What do you mean by "for" those, "for" anyone else?
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
The Atheist Asks
- Thread starter Rookie
- Start date
wow. So your magic strawman ("Jesus just smol human not divine!! :mad" ) who is allegedly somehow not God, can know what is in a man?
You assert "sons of God" (lowercase) and THE Son of God (differentiates, capital S) are in the same sense, so those "sons of god" should know what is in a man too!
By admitting that there is a difference, you are DEBUNKING your "sons and Son = same" beLief.
By refusing to admit, then you are belittling Jesus (AS USUAL!!) by making Him **not** know what is "in a man", and exalting humans by basically saying that they DO know what is "in a man". Stuck in a Catch 22 of Jesus-belittlism--- errr, Uniatrianism.
Unitiarisim is illogical and self defeating.
“Except” ye believe or are willing to believe the truth, what profit it you?
Scripture already says what's in a man.
Although that is not something I ever said, yes the capitalization is subjective at best. I have no issue applying capitalization to Jesus as God's Son and I do it regularly, but I admit it's not necessary.
No real difference aside from translational preference.
After reading Jeremiah 17:9, don't you agree that you also know what is in a man?
9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Also, how do you suppose the saints will judge the world if they were not privy to it? See 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3.
How so?
What makes you think that?
Are you finding it hard to differentiate between whether "THE Son" or "sons" is referring to Jesus or mere men? Not suprised if you are, given you try to lump God in with us mono-person beings via Jesus-Belittlism.
"subjective" Yeah, no, every time the His/Him/He is capitalized it refers to Jesus. Show me ONE TIME from the NASB where a mere human has their pronoun uppercased. Show me ONE TIME from the NASB where Jesus' Pronoun is NOT uppercased.
More fruit of Jesus-belittlism.
Because God gives them authority.
And just so you know, those saints will accept the Trinity Truth. They won't fall for Islamic/cult teaching of "God's just merely 1 person like us humans! How totally-not-humanistic!!".
Runningaway man, unfortunately for the recent, un-orthodox, anti-Bible, cult-freindly teaching named "unitarianism", there is no Jesus-Belittlism in Heaven.
Jesus the Son and the other sons are all men. That's what Jesus said concerning himself and that isn't even a theological argument, but Jesus never directly said he was God. I am aware of all of the semantical games and arguments people use to claim Jesus is God, but when the rubber meets the road, he never said it. Actually, Jesus denied being God.
You were specific about it being the NASB. I am sure the NASB capitalizes all of the pronouns for Jesus, but I never claimed otherwise.
This isn't a song a Trinitarian will be singing before the throne because these are all Unitarians who know the Lamb isn't the God who is on the throne. You sure you're on the right team, lefty? They were all worshipping God, not the Lamb. I will be doing the same.
Revelation 7
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Last edited:
There is some context that you left out.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
...
Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”
Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped. (ESV)
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” (ESV)
First, it's worth noting that you largely ignored the mention of the Lamb. Second, the twenty-four elders "fell down" before the Lamb, which is worship. Third, the language used of God in 7:12 is the very same as in 5:12-13, where it is said of both God and the Lamb. Fourth, in 5:14, the elders fell down and worshipped the Lamb as well. Fifth, salvation is said to belong both God and the Lamb.
We also have:
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. (ESV)
Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
...
Rev 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. (ESV)
They are both the temple, both the light, and share the same throne. Additionally, the same titles are used of both God (1 Tim 6:15; Rev 1:8; 21:6) and Jesus (Rev 1:17; 2:8; 17:14; 19:16; 22:13).
Long story short, there is much more going on than just the proof-texting you provided.
The Bible is a Unitarian's book so I take pleasure when you quote any verse or passage. I could only wish we had the time and space to just post the entire Bible and go through it all from Genesis to Revelation.
However, while you did quote Scripture, your commentary reflects an inaccurate understanding of it.
Beginning with Revelation 5:8-14 you should observe that in verse 8, around the throne is where the the living creatures and the elders are. Verse 13 refers to "Him who sits on the throne" and "the Lamb" showing distinction between the throne of God and the throne of the Lamb. Remember where in verse 8 it says that around the throne is where the living creatures and elders are? Verse 14 says the elders fell down and worshipped. So where they fell down was before the throne of God, and not the Lamb. They were worshipping God the Father.
Perfect, you can clearly see here that God and the Lamb are indeed not the same person. Salvation belongs to God and the Lamb which says the same sort of thing that John 17:1-3 already says; eternal life is knowing the Father, the only true God, and Jesus Christ who He sent.
I also might add, that in John 1:29,30 that John the Baptist said the Lamb is a man. So when we are speaking of Jesus in Revelation, we need to keep the global context of Scripture in mind about these things. Jesus is a man in heaven while God isn't a man in heaven.
One of my favorite verses that clearly show distinction between God Almighty and the Lamb.
Grammatically, this doesn't require the throne of God be the same throne as the Lamb's. Yes I agree it does mean they each have a throne, but not the same throne. I will show you precisely where it's stated that the throne of God and the Lamb are not the same throne.
Revelation 3 (ESV)
21The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
The Christians are also the temple in Revelation 3:12.
Revelation 21:23 says there are two light sources. There is God and the Lamb as its lamp.
23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Then in Revelation 22:5 there are still two light sources, but the light source they don't need anymore is the lamp. They only have God as the light.
5And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
This refers to the end of the Lordship of Christ as Paul said. I would also like to point out that when Paul said "God may be all in all" it refers to a future event. God is not all in all yet. Paul is referring to when all power and authority returns to God.1 Corinthians 15 (ESV)
27For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Last edited:
Well said. I like to debate, but I must say, I cannot find anything you said to argue against. I have, and still do, understand it the same way as you.
I like to debate as well and I know you and I disagree about some things, but I wouldn't say you are wrong, we just disagree. You have great reasons why you believe the things you do and you articulate those reasons well. I just try to remain open.
Your whole premise falls apart. You are ASSUMING that the Lamb and God are not One.
"Me and My Father are One." - Jesus
How can God and a "not-God" be One? Answer: No, Unitisim is false. Jesus truly is God.
Yup. One Person of the Trinity and Another. You struggle with God's Triune nature.
My Ferrari runs on fuel and I regularly clean my car.
But, I do not have 2 cars. Unitarian thinking would be to believe I have 2 cars.
Oh? Then why is the whole Bible about Jesus, in some way? No mere man could have the whole Bible point to him. Only God. Logically, Biblically, Jesus is God.
That Book points to the Trinity Truth, not Islamic/cult teaching.
Yes, you definitely have inaccurate understanding. Jesus and God are One. You assume that Jesus' statement is false.
It says the throne of God. Not the throne of the Father. You are assuming JesusBelittlism to be true, as you always do.
Perfect, you lack the ability to realize that the Trinity is made of Three Distinct Persons. They are One God. Did you think there were three clones of the Father in the Trinity? Seems like you did.
We can tell They are Distinct because of what happened at Jesus' baptism.
Yup. To one Person and Another. But still to ONE God.
The Son is the only true God too. No reason only one of the Persons of the Trinity would be God.
Yes, you like to add cult-created teachings to Scripture. And you like to mold Jesus in your image. It's what Unitarans do. They want to eliminate the Divine nature of Jesus, and leave only human. Athiests just take it a step further and reject God and the Supernatural entirely.
Unitarainism is a lot like Athiesm where they turn Jesus into a weak little man in their OWN eyes. Of course, their belieeef that He's "not" God does not make it so.
A car has wheels. Does that mean it only has wheels and no other parts? you arbitrarily exclude all the time.
The Bible records some of God' actions. Does that mean that's all God will ever do?
Your logic (more like LACK thereof!!) would say "yes".
The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14).
Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not take on human form until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus took on human form in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
Of course the Lamb and God are one just as the disciples and God are one as well. According to Jesus in John 17:20-23, the disciples have the same kind of oneness with God, Jesus, and each other as Jesus does. Therefore oneness is about unity in Spirit, not being God; he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit... 1 Corinthians 6:17.
By the way, the Lamb is a human.
John 1
29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
God in the Bible doesn't have a Triune nature.
"that they may all be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us"
Jesus is referring to the FACT that He and and God (like saying Ferrari and Car) are One.
So how do you KNOW for SURE Jesus is saying "in the same manner" as "You are in Me", and not just Jesus using His oneness as an analogy/comparison?
By your illogic, Jesus is having Christians become a multi-person, one-human entity. Unitarianism fails AGAIN! smh
So obviously, Jesus is not saying "just as You are in Me" as in the same manner, 3 Persons one God, as you so assume
It's like saying "An oval is round like a planet is round" and claiming that planets are shaped like ovals, or that ovals are spheres. This sentence in green is highlighting the fact that both are round, NOT claiming that their roundess is the same kind of roundness.
This is one of MANY reasons why the early church laughed at Unitarianism. (hyperbole but you get it, hopefully.)
Because it's irrational. And therefore its followers become as such.
Explain why we have Past, Present and Future in time, not just 1 "side" of time. Creation reflects God's nature and it sure dont reflect an Islamic or cult 1-person god.
0.33333 = 1/3. It repeats. THREES, why not all ones?? God is infinite, math reflects His infinite nature.
0.66..... = 2/3. Also repeats.
But 3/3 is 1, we dont see 0.9999...
So tell me why 3/3 = 1 .
Why does the decimal suddenly terminate and become 1? Why would God set up math to debunk your belief, runningawayman, if your belief were true????????
Math backs the Truth of the Trinity and debunks unitiarism.
Please tell me why God is omnipotent and not weak. If God were mono-person He would not be perfect.
This reads a bit like an emotional outburst in which you attempt to slander me and others by both misrepresenting the way we think and comparing us to Muslims and atheists. This is a bad post and it's false. I get the vibe you detest strictly Biblical Christians.
In any case, the bottom line is the Trinity is neither explained or described in Scripture while Unitarianism is taught directly and explicitly in the plain text. The error you're making is called eisegesis and it's like "reading between the lines." Plainly, what you have done to create the Trinity doctrine is attempt to discover a meaning of verses that are hidden or implied rather than explicitly stated.
The issue with this approach is you don't have a monopoly on how to parse hidden or implied meanings. This is why Protestantism and Catholicism are fractured into literally thousands of denominations, sub-denominations, sects, and cults. It's because the vast majority of you are using the inherent paradox of the Trinity to interpret the Bible and none of it can be falsified because none of it is directly stated in Scripture or explicitly denied.
I can help you explain the hypostatic union. I would begin with just forgetting about it because that is not the right direction to go. The reason why no one is capable of understanding it is because Scripture doesn't shed any light on it and it contradicts itself. Ultimately, God is not a man and a man is not God because the nature of God and man are inherently in opposition, but Trinitarianism claims that Jesus is both! How does that work? The answer is, as you have admitted, no one knows. Perhaps instead of trying to explain what can't be explained and always defending contradictions, it's better to take a fresh approach to this.
Now, ready for the big reveal? Philippians 2:5-8 actually debunks the idea that there can be a hypostatic union. If you actually want to talk about it instead of just take jabs at me then let me know.