[_ Old Earth _] The beginning of life.

[reznwerks]

god

Hello B,

When you get to the part where you disprove God exists. Please send me a PM.

Thanks,

===================
I thought we went over this before. You are making the claim that God exists. It is up to you to prove it not for B to prove otherwise. Please provide real evidence not the fact that many "believe" , and don't use examples like if God didn't do then how etc. The fact remains that man may not know everything and he may never know everything but again to default those things we can't explain to a God is not an explanation or proof of the existance of the almighty.

 

[bibleberean]

Re: god

Hello B,

When you get to the part where you disprove God exists. Please send me a PM.

Thanks,

===================
I thought we went over this before. You are making the claim that God exists. It is up to you to prove it not for B to prove otherwise. Please provide real evidence not the fact that many "believe" , and don't use examples like if God didn't do then how etc. The fact remains that man may not know everything and he may never know everything but again to default those things we can't explain to a God is not an explanation or proof of the existance of the almighty.

B said he could prove God did not exist in another thread and started this one to prove it.

He made the statement. I am just waiting for him to back it up. 8-)

I don't have to prove God exists to you are anyone else.

God is self evident and those who refuse to see that are simply proving to me what God has said in the bible about these folks. :D

 

[Wertbag]

Your thinking is totally illogical.
It doesn't take intelligence to create?
Creativity demands intelligence!

And as I pointed out things with no intelligence can create (new life from existing plants or even bugs like gnats), your quoting the dictionary really doesn't explain what you were trying to say. Yes trees are inanimate, yes they have no intelligence, and yes they create new life. Therefore we have something creating with no intelligence, therefore your statement is incorrect.

It is impossible for something to be designed by chance.

People look at mountain sides and see faces, people look at the clouds and see shapes and images, all of these natural events formed by chance. Many images of Mary seen in windows, oil stains or mud puddles are obviously created by chance. Even symetrical shapes like round polished rocks were not designed but found that way as the conditions chanced to be right for that to happen.
You may have meant life designed by chance, which is quite a different statement, using the word "something" doesn't narrow it down, just a massive blanket statement.

 

[bibleberean]

Trees do not create life. They reproduce after their kind just as God designed them.

Matter can be formed in different shapes because of the way the universe is created and designed. Shapes can be formed by chance but true design takes intelligence.

It always has and always will.

There would be no laws of physics without someone creating them.

Laws demand a law giver.

"Cause and effect."

God is the first cause.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

 

[bibleberean]

Who Created God?

Author: Jonathan Sarfati


This is often asked of Christians. But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question "Who created God?" is illogical, just like "To whom is the bachelor married?".

So a more sophisticated questioner might ask: "If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn't God need a cause? And if God doesn't need a cause, why should the universe need a cause?" In reply, Christians should use the following reasoning:

1. Everything which has a beginning has a cause.1

2. The universe has a beginning.

3. Therefore the universe has a cause.

Read this article here:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/197.asp

 

[Blue-Lightning]

And as I pointed out things with no intelligence can create (new life from existing plants or even bugs like gnats)

Two things.

1) All bugs have some degree of intelligence, albeit slight.
2) Offspring are simply transferred life, not new life.

Even symetrical shapes like round polished rocks were not designed but found that way as the conditions chanced to be right for that to happen.

If you were to look closer, you would most likely find that there are no 100% symetrically round rocks.

I could comment on more, but I'll leave it at that for the moment.

BL

 

[B]

Okay, now this topic is moving along.

The six most important elements for Earth life and their percentages by numbers of atoms in human beings are the following: hydrogen, 61 percent; oxygen, 26 percent; carbon, 11 percent; nitrogen, 2 percent; phosphorus, less than 1 percent; and sulfur, also less than 1 percent.

Can we agree that all life (well, all carbon-based life that we know of) is composed of chemicals and nothing more? I mean, our bodies are performing complex chemical reactions, ie, the converting of food to energy. Agree?

 

[Quath]

2. The universe has a beginning.

You have to be careful. Time started with the universe. So it both has an beginning and is also eternal. So the universe has always existed.

Quath

 

[bibleberean]

2. The universe has a beginning.

You have to be careful. Time started with the universe. So it both has an beginning and is also eternal. So the universe has always existed.

Quath

Could you eplain exactly what you mean here?

What?

 

[Blue-Lightning]

You have to be careful. Time started with the universe. So it both has an beginning and is also eternal. So the universe has always existed.

Not quite right. Think about this - the commonly accepted theory of the universe's beginning is the Big Bang Theory. I'm assuming you accept that. The idea is that all the contents of the universe were bunched into an area no larger than the head of a pencil at the beginning point of time. Theorists such as yourself then postulate that time did not exist whilst the universe was packaged so tightly. Problem is, without time, the universe can't explode. You've got to have time to have an explosion... and time certainly didn't just occur all of a sudden.

Another theory people have come up with is the idea that the universe has eternally been expanding and imploding, but that has major problems also. Firstly, we've already stated that the universe can't have generated itself - so that question is still in place. And secondly, the theory doesn't answer any questions regarding what force is causing the universe to explode over and over again.

Can we agree that all life (well, all carbon-based life that we know of) is composed of chemicals and nothing more?

We can agree that all organisms are composed of elements. The word "life" is a bit more difficult to grasp, so I'm more comfortable using more precise wording.

BL

 

[bibleberean]

Okay, now this topic is moving along.

The six most important elements for Earth life and their percentages by numbers of atoms in human beings are the following: hydrogen, 61 percent; oxygen, 26 percent; carbon, 11 percent; nitrogen, 2 percent; phosphorus, less than 1 percent; and sulfur, also less than 1 percent.

Can we agree that all life (well, all carbon-based life that we know of) is composed of chemicals and nothing more? I mean, our bodies are performing complex chemical reactions, ie, the converting of food to energy. Agree?

I don't know all that but I agree that man is composed of many elements.

What is your point? And please get to it.

 

[B]

Quote;
''I don't know all that but I agree that man is composed of many elements.''
Okay, we have hit a snag already. What do you propose that man is composed of that is not chemical? Maybe your fingernail is made up of invisible floaty-goo that is not chemical in nature? Explain?

And I can't rush this. Evidently there is a lot of ground to cover. You should have stayed awake in science!

 

[LetsBeLogical]

My questions would be as followed

1) How does consciousness come from nonconsciousness?

2) How could science explain "will"?

3) Not only is it very highly improbable that life began by chance, but assuming it did, how does that not contradict the belief among scientists that the universe is only billions of years old? For example, the odds of just ONE of reactions causing life forming from proteins and such would take (from memory here) trillions of years. Not only do you say this happened in obviously billions of years but thousands upon thousands of times.

LetsBeLogical

 

[bibleberean]

Quote;
''I don't know all that but I agree that man is composed of many elements.''
Okay, we have hit a snag already. What do you propose that man is composed of that is not chemical? Maybe your fingernail is made up of invisible floaty-goo that is not chemical in nature? Explain?

And I can't rush this. Evidently there is a lot of ground to cover. You should have stayed awake in science!

A man's body is made up of earthly elements. Fine.. let us move on.

 

[B]

Quote;
''How does consciousness come from nonconsciousness?''
We'll get to evolution shortly.

''How could science explain "will"?''
I presume by this you mean ''how can we do what we want?'' Let me poes you a question. Does a dog have will?

''Not only is it very highly improbable that life began by chance, but assuming it did, how does that not contradict the belief among scientists that the universe is only billions of years old? For example, the odds of just ONE of reactions causing life forming from proteins and such would take (from memory here) trillions of years. Not only do you say this happened in obviously billions of years but thousands upon thousands of times''

It only had to have happened once.
THe odds seem huge, but consider that it could have have happened on million of planets (given the size of the universe). And in potentially millions of places on each planet.
Like I said, it only had to happen ONCE. And it obviously has happened once. We're here, aren't we?

 

[Blue-Lightning]

How does consciousness come from nonconsciousness?

Before you figure that out, you'll have to figure out what consciousness really is. I sometimes answer people in my sleep if they ask me a basic question (although not usually correctly) and I know of people who walk with their eyes open but are asleep. Obviously they are not conscious, but their bodies are functioning as is a rudimentary part of their mind. So what is consciousness?

Does a dog have will?

Of course.

And it obviously has happened once. We're here, aren't we?

The remote possibility of something occurring does not signal that it occurred, especially when other possibilities exist. So I wouldn't call it obvious.

Not only do you say this happened in obviously billions of years but thousands upon thousands of times.

I'm not sure that B is saying that. But I'm also not sure that B understands that theoretically (and only theoretically) life can begin through a chemical reaction under precise circumstances and given a very, very long time, the probability that this life, once formed, will sustain itself is even more infinitely small.

Remember that even in our modern day, we cannot create new life and even in the best conditions in laboratories. The idea that this occurred on a violatile plantet is small enough, but the idea that this life sustained itself and reproduced itself is so minute that the numbers are almost certainly in the "scientifically impossible" realm.

BL

BL[/color]
[/quote]

 

[LetsBeLogical]

I worded my first question wrong. I apologize. It should have read:

1) How does consciousness come from unconsciousness? Or selfawareness from nonselfawareness?

LetsBeLogical

 

[Wertbag]

How does consciousness come from unconsciousness? Or selfawareness from nonselfawareness?

Its all brain functions, until our brain develops we have no selfawareness, if our brain never develops or becomes damaged we lose it or various parts of our personality dependant on the damage.

Before you figure that out, you'll have to figure out what consciousness really is. I sometimes answer people in my sleep if they ask me a basic question (although not usually correctly) and I know of people who walk with their eyes open but are asleep. Obviously they are not conscious, but their bodies are functioning as is a rudimentary part of their mind. So what is consciousness?

Again brain functions explain these events, your concious brain is turned off but the subconcious is still active enough to control your body without thought. Just as a punch to the head can make you lose conciousness, its all due to the effect to the brain.

''How could science explain "will"?''

And yes its the brain again. Once the brain develops to a point where we can think for ourselves we can start making decisions (and decision making is all that "will" is). Dogs have enough brain power to think for themselves "will I pick up the ball or run away?". Making choices is not a special gift as pretty much anything that can think for itself has that ability.
The big question this always raised for me is what does the soul actually do? If we didn't have a soul (as people seem to believe animals do not) would we be any different? Its obviously not our personality, our memories or any of our mental functions, so doesn't it actually not do anything at all?

 

[LetsBeLogical]

I dont think you understand what Im asking for.

How can those things come from things that do not possess them? How can will and consciousness come from something that has neither.

LetsBeLogical

 

[Wertbag]

I dont think you understand what Im asking for.
How can those things come from things that do not possess them? How can will and consciousness come from something that has neither.

I do understand what you are asking for, and the answer is still the same. As a baby we do not have a developed brain to make decisions, but as our brain grows we gain selfawareness. At a certain stage of our development we gain the ability to understand and learn. We do not possess these abilities from birth we gain them through development of the brain.