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[_ Old Earth _] The beginning of life.

  • Thread starter Thread starter B
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I asked bibleberan if he agreed that man is purely an organic creature, composed of many chemicals, and nothing more. He agreed. Therefore, he has agreed that the 'soul' is a human invention, a fantasy designed with the purpose of defeating death and giving life meaning.

Well that was a disingenous trick... and not very productive. Anywho, that would be assuming that there is no resurrection of the body in the way that Jesus' body was resurrected.

Clever trick though.

BTW, I noticed you guys are playing hardball with Bibleguy, but nobody wants to challenge me? Have I obtained that high a status already? Surely not.

Take your swings boys,

BL


BL[/color]
 
Blue-Lightning said:
I asked bibleberan if he agreed that man is purely an organic creature, composed of many chemicals, and nothing more. He agreed. Therefore, he has agreed that the 'soul' is a human invention, a fantasy designed with the purpose of defeating death and giving life meaning.

Well that was a disingenous trick... and not very productive. Anywho, that would be assuming that there is no resurrection of the body in the way that Jesus' body was resurrected.

Clever trick though.

BTW, I noticed you guys are playing hardball with Bibleguy, but nobody wants to challenge me? Have I obtained that high a status already? Surely not.

Take your swings boys,

BL


BL[/color]

I don't see how stating that man is made up of chemical elements is tricky.

I think it proves rather than disproves the fact that it took a superior intelligent being to produce life.

Inorganic matter cannot not produce life.

You could take all the elements of man and experiment with them till doomsday and not produde a single living cell.

Even if a man produces something that may be technically alive after millions of experiments all that would do is prove that it takes higher intelligence to program and produce order and function.

This fact has not been refuted.

"one of the things we know absolutely for sure from science, is that information cannot arise from disorder by chance. It always takes (greater) information to produce information, and ultimately information is the result of intelligence:"

I don't find any of their arguments to be "tricky". I find them foolish and silly.
 
I don't see how stating that man is made up of chemical elements is tricky.

That's not the tricky part... the tricky part was getting you to say that man is only chemical elements - at that point, B could then say that your statement negates the existence of a soul. Of course, you were only thinking from an organism perspective.

Inorganic matter cannot not produce life.

This is true... and I would lean more heavily towards it rather than the unconcsious>conscious argument you have.

I don't find any of their arguments to be "tricky."

That was the only tricky one that I found. But to say that they are foolish and silly is not giving them the credit that they deserve IMHO. They're are certainly intelligently put arguments.

I think all people would do better to remind themselves that an intelligent belief can still be wrong.

BL
 
"That's not the tricky part... the tricky part was getting you to say that man is only chemical elements - at that point, B could then say that your statement negates the existence of a soul. Of course, you were only thinking from an organism perspective"

Bibleberean answers:

If that is your idea of "tricky". :D

The fact that man is composed of chemical elements is not something I have ever heard refuted.
 
But unless you believe in a dichotomous human being, then I don't think you would limit a person to just being chemical elements.

But maybe you're someone who believes that the soul is simply the consciousness.

Either way, I call it a tricky attemp to end the debate on a slight of hand.

BL
 
Blue-Lightning said:
But unless you believe in a dichotomous human being, then I don't think you would limit a person to just being chemical elements.

But maybe you're someone who believes that the soul is simply the consciousness.

Either way, I call it a tricky attemp to end the debate on a slight of hand.

BL

I believe what the bible teaches.

Man is body, soul and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless,

Robert

[/b]
 
And that's where B got you... buy getting you to say that man was only body (elements).

Anywho, I'm still waiting for B to respond.

BL
 
Blue-Lightning said:
And that's where B got you... buy getting you to say that man was only body (elements).

Anywho, I'm still waiting for B to respond.

BL

The body is only composed of chemical elements. God breathed life into man and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That didn't "get me" because the fact that man is composed of inorganic material is not an issue.

The issue is how does inorganic material become living and produce other living beings after it's "own kind"?

The fact certainly does not prove that God does not exist. It proves that He does.

I cannot agree that this is a clever argument.

In fact I think the argument is assinine.

Just my opinion.
 
You are now claim the existence of a thiong called a 'soul'. You base this belief on the words of a dark-ages scribe.
Science has proved, through cat scans, dissection and hundreds of studies that there is no soul. Conciousness is a direct product of the brain. Nothing more.

Before this can progress, you need to provide evidence for the souls existence. The bible is not acceptable proof, because hey, it's just a book written in a time when humankind was ignorant.
 
B said:
You are now claim the existence of a thiong called a 'soul'. You base this belief on the words of a dark-ages scribe.
Science has proved, through cat scans, dissection and hundreds of studies that there is no soul. Conciousness is a direct product of the brain. Nothing more.

Before this can progress, you need to provide evidence for the souls existence. The bible is not acceptable proof, because hey, it's just a book written in a time when humankind was ignorant.

That was very deep. :roll:

My computer does not have consciousness.

Life has never and I mean never been observed springing from non life.

So much for the false assertion by evolutionists that their "science" is based on "observable evidence".

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

I don't have to prove God exists. The evidence of Creation is overwhelming that He does.

The word "creation" has no meaning without a creator. Creation does not happen by chance but by design.

God is the author and finisher of life.

God is self evident.

Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
 
My computer does not have consciousness.

Not now, but given enough time they will. After all, our brains are basically supercomputers, performing millions of calculations every second.

Life has never and I mean never been observed springing from non life

God has never and I mean never been observed. But a book tells you how he bought life from non life, so hey! it must be true.

:evil: :lol:
 
B said:
My computer does not have consciousness.

Not now, but given enough time they will. After all, our brains are basically supercomputers, performing millions of calculations every second.

[quote:d8334]Life has never and I mean never been observed springing from non life

God has never and I mean never been observed. But a book tells you how he bought life from non life, so hey! it must be true.

:evil: :lol:[/quote:d8334]

Processing data is not the same as having awareness.

It takes intelligence to produce a computer. God created man. Man's intelligence did not come by a series of accidental mergings of chemicals.

God created man. That is the only truly logical conclusion.

The evidence that life begets life and that non life cannot produce life points to a Creator. Life and order cannot arise by chance.

The laws of physics were obviously the result of a law giver.

Really. Only a fool could miss it.

http://www.thebereancall.org/Newsletter ... /5218.aspx

Dave Hunt

Evolution or God's Word

"In his book, The Blind Watchmaker, Oxford University zoologist Richard Dawkins, a leading evolutionist, calls biology "the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose."13 Indeed! One cell, the smallest living unit, could have 100,000 molecules and 10,000 intricately interrelated chemical reactions going on at one time. Cells couldn't arise by chance! Dawkins admits that every cell contains in its nucleus "a digitally coded database larger...than all 30 volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica put together."14 You can't even imagine the odds against chance creating a 30-volume encyclopedia! That's for one celland there are trillions in the human body, thousands of different kinds, working in unbelievably complex and delicately balanced relationships!

The astronomical odds make evolution mathematically impossible. Hoyle calculated that the odds of producing just the basic enzymes of life by chance are 1 over 1 with 40,000 zeros after it. By comparison, the odds of plucking a particular atom out of the universe is 1 over 1 with 80 zeros. Even if each atom became another universe, the odds of plucking a particular atom out of all those universes by chance are 1 over 1 with 160 zeros. One chance in 1 with 40,000 zeros after it just to produce the basic enzymes! But enzymes perform incredible feats, which fact further compounds the already impossible odds.

Why does blood clot only at the point of bleeding and not within the veins and arteriesand stop clotting when the bleeding stops? Imagine the billions of animals that would have bled to death or been killed by improper blood clotting before this incredible process was perfected by chance! The immune system is even more astonishing, says Behe: "The complexity of the system dooms all Darwinian explanations...."15 And so it is with hundreds of other life systems. Remember, these complex systems must be operational to be of value; they couldn't evolve in stages.

In his excellent 1996 book, Darwin's Black Box, Behe documents the incomprehensible complexity of life at its most basic chemical/cellular levela complexity unimagined by Darwin. Behe, who says evolution "should be banished,"16 demolishes Darwin's theory by offering multiple examples at the biochemical level of intricately designed "irreducibly complex" elements which could not have evolved:


[Evolution] cannot explain the origin of the complex biochemical structures that undergird life. It doesn't even try....The conclusion of intelligent design flows naturally from the data itselfnot from sacred books or sectarian beliefs. 17 "
 
Processing data is not the same as having awareness

Yes it is! It is basically all our brains are doing. We feel, hear, smell, etc adn our brains take these messages (or data, if you will) and make sense out of it.

You state time and again that everthing in existence needs a creator. Except God, of course. He's special.

The reasons you believe God didn't have a creator are the same reasons I believe the universe didn't have a creator.

It's just not necessary.

Might I recommend a book? A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson. Sums it up nicely.
 
You state time and again that everthing in existence needs a creator.

Let me fix that statement for you and see if you can knock any holes in it. The statement should be:

Anything that exists within time must have a cause.


After all, our brains are basically supercomputers, performing millions of calculations every second.

In some ways, yes, in some ways no. A human brain is so much more complex than any computer. Ask a psychologist how the brain works and you're likely to get a very different answer from what you'll get from the next one you ask. Why? Because we really don't know how it works at all. We know it uses electricity. We know we can see a pattern of electrical fluctuation during different activities. But that's still about it.

God has never and I mean never been observed.

No, what you mean is, you have never observed God. I have. Dismiss it if you like, but I have encountered God and I hope to do so in the future again. Science has also observed God. Search "prayer result" under Google and see what studies are pulled up. I believe even Harvard has come to the conclusion that prayer, even for people that don't know they are being prayed for, has a great effect.

Hmmm...

BL
 
B said:
Processing data is not the same as having awareness

Yes it is! It is basically all our brains are doing. We feel, hear, smell, etc adn our brains take these messages (or data, if you will) and make sense out of it.

You state time and again that everthing in existence needs a creator. Except God, of course. He's special.

The reasons you believe God didn't have a creator are the same reasons I believe the universe didn't have a creator.

It's just not necessary.

Might I recommend a book? A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson. Sums it up nicely.

In the beginning stuff versus in the beggining God.

Intelligence is required for design. Intelligence is required to create.

May I recommend a good book?

It is called the Bible. Sums it up nicely.

Romans 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

God is the source of all intelligence, all creation.

This earth and the life on it were not brought about by dumb blind luck.

It is obviously designed by God.

He is self evident. His creation bears witness to His majesty and power.

A person would have to be a fool to miss it.
 
May I recommend a good book?

It is called the Bible

I've read it. That is one of the reasons I no longer believe in it.


Getting back on topic, you are saying that organic life does not spring from inorganic life. Okay then. Our bodies are 75% water. Is water organic or inorganic? Same deal with all the chemical elements in our bodies. When you break them down, they are composed of atoms. Everthing is. A rock. your hand. Oxygen. The only difference is the way they are arranged.

Let me be completely intellectually honest. Can I prove a God does not exist? No more than you can prove a flying pink unicorn does not exist.

However, you are making very specific claims as to the nature of your god, and these are consistent with exactly what people living thousand of years ago would have wrote.
Why does it rain? Where does thunder come from? What happens when we die? At the time there was no advanced science to provide simple answers to these questions. Now we know better.
 
B said:
May I recommend a good book?

It is called the Bible

I've read it. That is one of the reasons I no longer believe in it.


Getting back on topic, you are saying that organic life does not spring from inorganic life. Okay then. Our bodies are 75% water. Is water organic or inorganic? Same deal with all the chemical elements in our bodies. When you break them down, they are composed of atoms. Everthing is. A rock. your hand. Oxygen. The only difference is the way they are arranged.

Let me be completely intellectually honest. Can I prove a God does not exist? No more than you can prove a flying pink unicorn does not exist.

However, you are making very specific claims as to the nature of your god, and these are consistent with exactly what people living thousand of years ago would have wrote.
Why does it rain? Where does thunder come from? What happens when we die? At the time there was no advanced science to provide simple answers to these questions. Now we know better.

I am not trying to prove a flying pink unicorn exists.

At least you have decided to be honest.

That is a start.

Man is made up of non living substances. In the entire history of man not a single person has witnessed life coming from non life.

In laboratories and with the countless mixings of the same elements man is composed of there hasn't been a single living cell produced.

God gives life and life has design and purpose.

It is God who gave life to non-living substances.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God created man with the ability to produce off spring.

Creation, life, design and function cannot happen by blind, stupid, doo dah luck.

In the beginning God created... Genesis 1:1

It becomes clearer and clearer why God hath declared:

Psalms 53:1 <<To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.>> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
 
Not so, BL, I'm just not good with names.
Sorry! :P.

As to Blue's comment about us not seeing life appear, conditions today are different from conditions in the past in two important ways. First, there was little or no molecular oxygen in the atmosphere or oceans when life first appeared. Free oxygen is reactive and would likely have interfered with the formation of complex organic molecules.

More importantly, there was no life around before life appeared. The life which is around today would scavenge and eat any complex molecules before they could turn into anything approaching new life

Furthermore, the development of molecular life took millions, if not hundreds of millions of years. How can we expect to see that in one life time?

I am not trying to prove a flying pink unicorn exists.

Can you prove it doesn't exist? If it is invisible, cannot be detected in any way, and has no effect on the world then it might as well not exist.
You are making specific claims and setting parameters about your god and I believe these are logically in error.
 
B, states...

"You are making specific claims and setting parameters about your god and I believe these are logically in error."

bibleberean replies

I am simply stating that the observable evidence shows that life always begets life.

Can you give me observable evidence that it doesn't?

Cause and effect.

God is the first cause. He always was and always will be.

You believe everything is here by blind chance. The universe is your god.

Trust me. You won't have any doubt about the existence of God soon.

Carl Sagan is a staunch believer now. You will be too. ;-)

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

In the beginning stuff created life?

That is sound logic? :lol:

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