[_ Old Earth _] The beginning of life.

[B]

Quote;
''A man's body is made up of earthly elements. Fine.. let us move on.''

This naturally includes the brain/mind - that marvelous organ in your head that generates this wonderful experience we call 'conciousness'.

Agree?

 

[LetsBeLogical]

I dont think you understand what Im asking for.
How can those things come from things that do not possess them? How can will and consciousness come from something that has neither.

I do understand what you are asking for, and the answer is still the same. As a baby we do not have a developed brain to make decisions, but as our brain grows we gain selfawareness. At a certain stage of our development we gain the ability to understand and learn. We do not possess these abilities from birth we gain them through development of the brain.

As a baby you still have consciousness though. A non living thing does not develop into a living thing with consciousness. Do you understand what Im saying? An example (very poor one though) would be a rock developing consciousness over time.

LetsBeLogical

 

[B]

Quote; (blue lightning)
''The remote possibility of something occurring does not signal that it occurred, especially when other possibilities exist. So I wouldn't call it obvious.''

Other possibilities? What would they be?
Are you referring to a book written when men were ignorant of the natural world? Before the truth could be persured without fear of religious persecution?

The bible is just a book! It is no different than a thousand other religious documents that claim to have a monopoly on the meaning of life.

Look at it without religious bias and it starts to look pretty silly.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

Other possibilities? What would they be?

Created by an intelligent being is one. Some people propose that aliens are part of the equation is another, although I don't buy that one.

Are you referring to a book written when men were ignorant of the natural world?

No, not at this time. BTW, I've not met anyone completely ignorant of the natural world - that would mean they didn't know it existed, and I don't know too many people who don't realize that the natural world exists. Be kind of hard considering everyone is a part of the natural world. I'm assuming you meant unknowledgable or uneducated.

Look at it without religious bias and it starts to look pretty silly.

Nothing is more silly than you assuming that I am coming at this in any way other than scientific and dodging the problem that self-generated life is scientifically impossible if you look at it from a probability perspective.

BL

 

[victorhadin]

"Can information arise from non-information?

Dr. Werner Gitt, Director and Professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, makes it clear that one of the things we know absolutely for sure from science, is that information cannot arise from disorder by chance. It always takes (greater) information to produce information, and ultimately information is the result of intelligence:

‘A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor) . . . It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required.’15

‘There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this.’16"

See source:

http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c038.html

Out of interest, since you didn't define it above, can you tell us which of the several statements/ definitions of 'information' is being used there?

 

[bibleberean]

"Can information arise from non-information?

Dr. Werner Gitt, Director and Professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, makes it clear that one of the things we know absolutely for sure from science, is that information cannot arise from disorder by chance. It always takes (greater) information to produce information, and ultimately information is the result of intelligence:

‘A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor) . . . It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required.’15

‘There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this.’16"

See source:

http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c038.html

Out of interest, since you didn't define it above, can you tell us which of the several statements/ definitions of 'information' is being used there?

This statement isn't self explanatory?

Dr. Werner Gitt, Director and Professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, makes it clear that...

one of the things we know absolutely for sure from science, is that information cannot arise from disorder by chance. It always takes (greater) information to produce information, and ultimately information is the result of intelligence:

 

[B]

It's funny how this great intelligence that created everything has 'always existed'. No need for development here. You said yourself that intelligence needs intelligence to create it.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[victorhadin]

"Can information arise from non-information?

Dr. Werner Gitt, Director and Professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, makes it clear that one of the things we know absolutely for sure from science, is that information cannot arise from disorder by chance. It always takes (greater) information to produce information, and ultimately information is the result of intelligence:

‘A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor) . . . It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required.’15

‘There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this.’16"

See source:

http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c038.html

Out of interest, since you didn't define it above, can you tell us which of the several statements/ definitions of 'information' is being used there?

This statement isn't self explanatory?

Dr. Werner Gitt, Director and Professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, makes it clear that...

one of the things we know absolutely for sure from science, is that information cannot arise from disorder by chance. It always takes (greater) information to produce information, and ultimately information is the result of intelligence:

Um, nope. You still haven't made it clear.



I shall be direct. Which has more 'information' (in the sense of the word that you are using) out of the following:



101010101010101010

100000000000000001

00000000000000000000000000001

1234567891011121314




Go-on. Define your terms.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

It's funny how this great intelligence that created everything has 'always existed'.

If a greater intelligence created everything that we know, then that includes time. I think you can understand what that signals.

I shall be direct. Which has more 'information' (in the sense of the word that you are using) out of the following:

That all depends on what informational language those are all speaking in... if different combinations of zeros and ones have meaning but twos, threes, fours, etc, don't... well, there's more information in a string of zeros and ones.

But in truth, I'm not sure of what you're getting at... I don't know how the knowledge that more varied characters in a language normally mean more information in less space has anything to do with the conversation.

BL

 

[Wertbag]

As a baby you still have consciousness though. A non living thing does not develop into a living thing with consciousness. Do you understand what Im saying? An example (very poor one though) would be a rock developing consciousness over time.

I'm not sure I get what you are trying to point out. Rocks don't grow, don't have brains and can't think. Babies have brain function, but I have yet to find anyone with memories back passed age 3 or so, it takes that long of our brains developing before we become selfaware and start storing our own memories. Conciousness is brain function, hit the head, jolt the brain and you lose conciousness.

 

[Justin]

Do you understand what Im saying? An example (very poor one though) would be a rock developing consciousness over time.

LetsBeLogical

If they are silent, the rocks will cry out.

Grin.

 

[bibleberean]

"Can information arise from non-information?

Dr. Werner Gitt, Director and Professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, makes it clear that one of the things we know absolutely for sure from science, is that information cannot arise from disorder by chance. It always takes (greater) information to produce information, and ultimately information is the result of intelligence:

‘A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor) . . . It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required.’15

‘There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this.’16"

See source:

http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c038.html

Out of interest, since you didn't define it above, can you tell us which of the several statements/ definitions of 'information' is being used there?

This statement isn't self explanatory?

Dr. Werner Gitt, Director and Professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, makes it clear that...

one of the things we know absolutely for sure from science, is that information cannot arise from disorder by chance. It always takes (greater) information to produce information, and ultimately information is the result of intelligence:

Um, nope. You still haven't made it clear.



I shall be direct. Which has more 'information' (in the sense of the word that you are using) out of the following:



101010101010101010

100000000000000001

00000000000000000000000000001

1234567891011121314




Go-on. Define your terms.

You tell me. I am not taking tests today. I am in between semesters.

What you need to do is get to the point... If you have one.

 

[B]

I asked bibleberan if he agreed that man is purely an organic creature, composed of many chemicals, and nothing more. He agreed. Therefore, he has agreed that the 'soul' is a human invention, a fantasy designed with the purpose of defeating death and giving life meaning.

I consider the discussion over. Thankyou for agreeing with me.

 

[bibleberean]

I asked bibleberan if he agreed that man is purely an organic creature, composed of many chemicals, and nothing more. He agreed. Therefore, he has agreed that the 'soul' is a human invention, a fantasy designed with the purpose of defeating death and giving life meaning.

I consider the discussion over. Thankyou for agreeing with me.

You are free to live in whatever delusion you choose.

I never agreed to the "nothing more part".

Basically what you are saying is that you cannot prove your point.

Time for you to make a quick geteaway?

 

[B]

Quote;
''Can we agree that all life (well, all carbon-based life that we know of) is composed of chemicals and nothing more? I mean, our bodies are performing complex chemical reactions, ie, the converting of food to energy. Agree?''

''I don't know all that but I agree that man is composed of many elements.''

You own words there.
Other posts on this thread have worded it as well as I and provided links to relavent sites.
So now I presume you wish to debate the 'soul'?

 

[bibleberean]

Quote;
''Can we agree that all life (well, all carbon-based life that we know of) is composed of chemicals and nothing more? I mean, our bodies are performing complex chemical reactions, ie, the converting of food to energy. Agree?''

''I don't know all that but I agree that man is composed of many elements.''

You own words there.
Other posts on this thread have worded it as well as I and provided links to relavent sites.
So now I presume you wish to debate the 'soul'?

So, the fact that man is composed of many elements means you have proven God does not exist?

Give me a break. : I don't care what you want to debate or don't want to debate. Don't waste my time.

 

[B]

You poor man.
Just wondering, do you read non-christian authors? Do you read anything that conflicts with your chosen religious views?
Maybe you should. You know, broaden your views a little.
It won't hurt, I promise.

:

 

[bibleberean]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Amen! :D

 

[willow the wip]

they say here in the UK the biggining of life is when you turn 40 :bday: :bday: :bday: :bday: :bday: :roll: :roll: :D

 

[ThinkerMan]

Speaking of humans being composed of elements....

I read an article today that stated that at the current rate of population growth, and given that the average human weighs about 150 pounds, that by the year 3750 the entire earth will be composed of human flesh.

That's one heck of a dog pile.