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[_ Old Earth _] The Bible Talks About the Expansion of the Universe

There is no emotional content to my statement that I don't know what the precise origin of our part of the Universe is.
Thanks for the clarification. Then your scientism has once again left you groping in the dark on the 'weightier matters'?

Again, you have not established that a singularity, if our part of the Universe originated from such a thing, amounts to 'nothing'.
What’s your definition of ‘nothing’? You may be confused. Have you ever presented evidence that a singularity existed. Do you have that evidence handy? You do agree with the Bible that the universe had a beginning – right? In your worldview could the universe have begun without a singularity or is it a requirement?

Even if it could be established that there was a big bang singularity your religion still leaves you impotent. Scientism cannot explain what came before a singularity or how the universe began. Only God has that answer. The question to you remains - why is there something instead of nothing?

Are you still scratching your head on your apparent illogical notion that something (the universe) can come from nothing? How does that work?
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
(Rom 1:20 NKJV)
 
You are entitled to your belief, but pretending to an absolute knowledge may convince yourself, but alone has little merit for convincing me that it is a meaningful explanation.
Thanks for the entitlement but God’s revelation is absolute and the Bible has presented the concept that God stretched out the universe – a universe that had a beginning. This was presented over 3000 years ago. You scientism remains a late-comer to this biblical truth - yes?
 
Do you have a reference for your Schroeder citation, please?

Sure do. Do you agree with his assessment that science has made a major paradigm change regarding the universe - a paradigm change that is agreement with what the Bible has presented for over three millennia? Science has finally caught up with God's revelation.
 
Thanks for the clarification. Then your scientism has once again left you groping in the dark on the 'weightier matters'?
Please define 'weightier matters' and explain what endows you with the authority to pronounce on others' position with respect to them.
What’s your definition of ‘nothing’?
You were the one who introduced this concept, which I asked you for a definition of according to your understanding, but you passed on offering any definition.
You may be confused.
On what grounds do you suggest this and about what?
Have you ever presented evidence that a singularity existed.
I offered it as a possibility, to which you have made no reasoned reply.
Do you have that evidence handy?
The consequences of Einsteinian physics and BB cosmology leads to the inference of a singularity marking the beginning of what may only be our part of a much more extensive Universe or Multiverse some 13.75 billion years ago. A singularity is a mathematical artifact which is our best attempt to describe what approximates to reality temporally close to the BB.
You do agree with the Bible that the universe had a beginning – right?
And have you stopped beating your wife yet? You have asked this question before and I have answered it before. Do you imagine my answer will have changed since?
In your worldview could the universe have begun without a singularity or is it a requirement?
You're like a dog with a bone. Will it get through to you if I shout? I DON'T KNOW.
Even if it could be established that there was a big bang singularity your religion still leaves you impotent. Scientism cannot explain what came before a singularity or how the universe began. Only God has that answer.
You are welcome to hold to this supernatural explanation, but you have offered nothing in the way of reasoned argument or evidence to persuade me that your view on either of these matters is convincing.
The question to you remains - why is there something instead of nothing?
And the answer remains, I don't know.
Are you still scratching your head on your apparent illogical notion that something (the universe) can come from nothing? How does that work?
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
(Rom 1:20 NKJV)
As according to your preferred mythology God created from nothing, I fail to see what the difficulty is you have wrestling with this concept. I note you have failed to address my point that, if an energy potential 'always' existed in one form or another (in this case, a singularity), how a change in this energy potential (the BB) amounts to something coming from nothing.
 
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Thanks for the entitlement but God’s revelation is absolute and the Bible has presented the concept that God stretched out the universe – a universe that had a beginning. This was presented over 3000 years ago. You scientism remains a late-comer to this biblical truth - yes?
No, your assertions notwithstanding. Show us reasoned argument and evidence that 'stretched out' in this context applies to an expanding Universe as currently postulated by our best scientific understanding of the subject.
 
Sure do. Do you agree with his assessment that science has made a major paradigm change regarding the universe - a paradigm change that is agreement with what the Bible has presented for over three millennia? Science has finally caught up with God's revelation.
Thanks. I will read this when I get the chance. Otherwise, no, I don't agree with your assertion that the phrase 'stretched out' is a biblical way of describing an expanding Universe because you have failed to offer either reasoned argument or evidence to support the idea that it is.
 
As according to your preferred mythology God created from nothing, I fail to see what the difficulty is you have wrestling with this concept. I note you have failed to address my point that, if an energy potential 'always' existed in one form or another (in this case, a singularity), how a change in this energy potential (the BB) amounts to something coming from nothing.
But we have evidence that God exists and by definition He is an Eternal Being. You can reject that evidence but it remains what it has always been - true. I don't think you have ever presented even one valid evidence based on your version of scientism that an “energy potential†(whatever that means) has always existed “in one form or anotherâ€.

What 'form or another' do you have in mind or are you simply speculating once again? For the record you are welcome to hold to your superstitions, but you have offered nothing in the way of reasoned argument or evidence to persuade me that your view is convincing or logical.

Will it get through to you if I shout? I DON'T KNOW.
Oh, we understand by now that you don't know – you need not shout. I was asking about your philosophical viewpoint but obviously you have nothing to offer beyond your superficial and worn-out 'pink unicorn' argument. Is that a fair assessment?
 
No, your assertions notwithstanding. Show us reasoned argument and evidence that 'stretched out' in this context applies to an expanding Universe as currently postulated by our best scientific understanding of the subject.
The evidence has been offered - the Bible has presented the concept that God stretched out the universe and the universe had a beginning. Let me know if you can find your missing evidence that your "energy potential" has always existed "in one form or another". I would like to see what form that might be.
 
You're dodging. You first made this argument:

"The Bible presents God who “stretched out” (i.e., expanded) the universe? Didn't 'majority science' present a "static universe" not too long ago?

“[God]...stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (Isaiah 40:22)
"

All everyone is asking is that you provide proof that 'stretched out' means 'expanded.' 'Stretched out' does not necessarily mean 'expanded' and it certainly doesn't indicate that the universe is currently expanding. You seem to be going beyond the text and making the Bible say something you want it to say. Until you provide proof, it is your opinion and not necessarily that of Scripture.

I am not dodging anything - I stated from the start that the Bible presents God who “stretched out” (expanded) the universe? I do not find that a 'stretch' at all. The passage speaks for itself. What do you think “stretched out the heavens” in the passage means? The OP stated...
Thus the concept, though not the theory, has been sitting in the Biblical texts waiting for twentieth century people to apply them to science.​
Does the Bible (in your mind) present the concept that the universe had a beginning, the beginning of the universe was caused by God and He "stretched out the heavens" to contain all which He created - stars, galaxies, etc?
 
But we have evidence that God exists...
Perhaps you would care to present some of this evidence as your assertion alone to this effect is unpersuasive?
...and by definition He is an Eternal Being.
By what definition?
You can reject that evidence but it remains what it has always been - true.
I cannot reject what has not been presented, nor can I accept your simple say-so that this unpresented evidence is 'true'.
I don't think you have ever presented even one valid evidence based on your version of scientism that an “energy potential†(whatever that means) has always existed “in one form or anotherâ€.
I didn't say it had; I asked for your comment on the hypothesis that the singularity from which our part of the Universe/Multiverse appears to have originated represents something rather than nothing (whatever you mean by nothing, as you have still failed to tell us). The evidence that what we call a singularity existed is a consequence of Einsteinian physics and BB cosmology. Future knowledge may change that understanding. In the meantime, however, it seems appropriate to point out that a singularity represents an energy potential that clearly existed 'before' our part of the Universe/Multiverse came into being and that it was a transformation of that energy potential that brought this about. Thus something did not come from nothing, but from something else that, at present, our physics cannot fully explain.
What 'form or another' do you have in mind or are you simply speculating once again?
If physicists and cosmologists don't fully understand this 'pre-BB' state, why would you expect me to? For the purposes of this discussion it is sufficient to point out that your assertions concerning something coming from nothing (whatever you define nothing to be, because we're still waiting to hear that) do not define investigations into the origins of our part of the Universe/Multiverse.
For the record you are welcome to hold to your superstitions, but you have offered nothing in the way of reasoned argument or evidence to persuade me that your view is convincing or logical.
This is not a superstition, unless you have found a new, previously unrecognized definition of the word; it is a hypothesis based on the consequences implied by the expanding Universe model that you believe (although have not yet established any substance for) the biblical expression 'stretched out' refers to.
Oh, we understand by now that you don't know – you need not shout.
Well, apparently I did as you only now seem to be grasping this fact.
I was asking about your philosophical viewpoint but obviously you have nothing to offer beyond your superficial and worn-out 'pink unicorn' argument. Is that a fair assessment?
It may well be a 'worn-out' argument, but it was sufficiently taxing for you that you appeared unable to respond to it with anything other than some serious handwaving and obvious condescension.
 
Let's keep in mind that the topic is "The Bible Talks About the Expansion of the Universe" and not whether or not God exists or the proofs of his existence. There are other forums for that.
 
Let's keep in mind that the topic is "The Bible Talks About the Expansion of the Universe" and not whether or not God exists or the proofs of his existence. There are other forums for that.
Noted and understood, but if others introduce claims concerning evidence for God's existence as part of their argument it seems reasonable to comment on those claims.
 
Noted and understood, but if others introduce claims concerning evidence for God's existence as part of their argument it seems reasonable to comment on those claims.
Yes, I know, I took that into account. :)
 
I am not dodging anything - I stated from the start that the Bible presents God who “stretched out†(expanded) the universe? I do not find that a 'stretch' at all. The passage speaks for itself. What do you think “stretched out the heavens†in the passage means? The OP stated...
Thus the concept, though not the theory, has been sitting in the Biblical texts waiting for twentieth century people to apply them to science.​
Does the Bible (in your mind) present the concept that the universe had a beginning, the beginning of the universe was caused by God and He "stretched out the heavens" to contain all which He created - stars, galaxies, etc?
The problem is that passages such as Isa 40:22 have been used to support a flat earth, even by someone in these forums. Other passages have historically been used to support geocentrism. One must be very careful in making the Bible say more than it does by reading other ideas into it.

"Stretched out" has different nuances in meaning and does not necessarily convey the action of stretching, of pulling something to make it longer, particularly since it is past tense. If one wants to understand that as an expanding universe, then they must concede that it is therefore done expanding. "Stretched out" could simply mean "put in place" and be a simple reference to the act of creation. The author's point is that it was the one true God who did it, a God who is very powerful.

To say more than that, to understand such verses as saying that the universe is expanding and that Scripture beat science to the punch, is most likely reading into the text something that isn't there and is merely wishful thinking.
 
Perhaps you would care to present some of this evidence as your assertion alone to this effect is unpersuasive?
Already done that and you drew a blank other than your pink unicorn shtick. It was fun but it got old fast. If you care to continue start a thread on unicorns in the appropriate forum and I will join you there.

I didn't say it had; I asked for your comment on the hypothesis that the singularity from which our part of the Universe/Multiverse appears to have originated represents something rather than nothing (whatever you mean by nothing, as you have still failed to tell us).

But you have not presented any evidence that there was a singularity at the beginning of the universe. Do you have such evidence or only more speculations?

In the meantime, however, it seems appropriate to point out that a singularity represents an energy potential that clearly existed 'before' our part of the Universe/Multiverse came into being and that it was a transformation of that energy potential that brought this about.

You are doing a good job of hand-waving but we would prefer to see real science to support that hand-waving? What does Stephen Hawking say about singularity?
It is perhaps ironic that, having changed my mind, I am now trying to convince other physicists that there was in fact no singularity at the beginning of the universe—as we shall see later, it can disappear once quantum effects are taken into account. (Hawking, A Brief History of Time)
Thus something did not come from nothing, but from something else that, at present, our physics cannot fully explain.

I see – something did not come from nothing because something else that could have come from nothing may exist but you are not quite sure what that something else that preceded nothing might be or where it came from but you are sure it may be there – somewhere. Try getting that peer-reviewed. Isn't that similar to your “evolution of the gaps' quagmire from our previous discussion? You may want to change your repertoire.

Have you given the question of why there is something instead of nothing more thought or was that about it?

This is not a superstition, unless you have found a new, previously unrecognized definition of the word; it is a hypothesis based on the consequences implied by the expanding Universe model that you believe (although have not yet established any substance for) the biblical expression 'stretched out' refers to
Can we now conclude from your presentation thus far that you have no evidence that demonstrates your "energy potential" (whatever that means) that has allegedly always existed "in one form or another" out there in our universe or a similar multiple-universe? Perhaps you can expand your thinking on that one a bit. You meander.
 
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"Stretched out" has different nuances in meaning and does not necessarily convey the action of stretching, of pulling something to make it longer, particularly since*it is past tense.
Of course that is your opinion. The passage very well could have been presented by God to convey the concept that the universe had a beginning and 'in the beginning' God "stretched out the heavens" to contain all which He created. You have not presented anything that would defeat that interpretation. But we respect your opinion – right or wrong.

Do you agree with kalvan that there is an "energy potential" that has always existed "in one form or another"? If you do, what do you think that energy potential could be and what form did it take?
 
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Already done that and you drew a blank other than your pink unicorn shtick. It was fun but it got old fast. If you care to continue start a thread on unicorns in the appropriate forum and I will join you there.
I have no recollection of you presenting any such evidence. Perhaps you can either link to the relevant post or tell me the thread and relevant post number, please? Also, can I remind you that the fun you derived from the 'pink unicorn shtick' amounted to offering no reasoned counter argument to the point I was making by invoking it.
But you have not presented any evidence that there was a singularity at the beginning of the universe. Do you have such evidence or only more speculations?
The 'evidence' is a consequence of Einsteinian physics and BB cosmology. As I have explained, a 'singularity' is our best attempt at explaining a reality that existed close to the BB, but that our physics are currently unable to fully explain; it is an artefact. This discussion may help you:

'According to the standard theory, our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7 billion years ago. What is a "singularity" and where does it come from? Well, to be honest, we don't know for sure. Singularities are zones which defy our current understanding of physics. They are thought to exist at the core of "black holes." Black holes are areas of intense gravitational pressure. The pressure is thought to be so intense that finite matter is actually squished into infinite density (a mathematical concept which truly boggles the mind). These zones of infinite density are called "singularities." Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know.'

More here: http://big-bang-theory.com/
You are doing a good job of hand-waving but we would prefer to see real science to support that hand-waving?
Well, good enough that you seem to be unable to offered any reasoned counterargument.
What does Stephen Hawking say about singularity?
It is perhaps ironic that, having changed my mind, I am now trying to convince other physicists that there was in fact no singularity at the beginning of the universe—as we shall see later, it can disappear once quantum effects are taken into account. (Hawking, A Brief History of Time)
'A Brief History of Time' was published in 1988. Did you source your reference directly from the book, or did you find it in a secondary source and, if so, can you tell us where? In either case, it may interest you to know that, in a lecture in 1996 available at his website, Professor Hawking discusses the BB singularity at some length:

'The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down. Nevertheless, the way the universe began would have been determined by the laws of physics, if the universe satisfied the no boundary condition. This says that in the imaginary time direction, space-time is finite in extent, but doesn't have any boundary or edge. The predictions of the no boundary proposal seem to agree with observation.'

Full text of the lecture here: http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html
I see – something did not come from nothing because something else that could have come from nothing may exist but you are not quite sure what that something else that preceded nothing might be or where it came from but you are sure it may be there – somewhere. Try getting that peer-reviewed. Isn't that similar to your “evolution of the gaps' quagmire from our previous discussion? You may want to change your repertoire.
And you may want to tell us want you understand by nothing and how the hypothesized BB singularity amounts to this nothing. I remember no 'evolution of the gaps quagmire'; I suspect you may be subject to selective memory syndrome. Perhaps you can reference the relevant posts?
Have you given the question of why there is something instead of nothing more thought or was that about it?
Do you have any reasoned argument to make concerning BB cosmology, or do you simply wish to scoff? The latter tactic suggests that you have nothing else to offer.
Can we now conclude from your presentation thus far that you have no evidence that demonstrates your "energy potential" (whatever that means) that has allegedly always existed "in one form or another" out there in our universe or a similar multiple-universe? Perhaps you can expand your thinking on that one a bit. You meander.
A singularity is an artifact that constitutes an energy potential. If BB cosmology is correct, a singularity is the inevitable consequence of that cosmology. Our part of the Universe/Multiverse began when that energy potential was changed from one form (the singularity) into another (one expression of which would have been matter as we understand it). If a singularity does not constitute an energy potential, perhaps you would like to tell us what it does constitute?

Alternatively, as you seem unwilling to address these ideas directly with counterargument, perhaps you would prefer to get on with supporting the substance of your assertion that is relevant to this thread, i.e. that the phrase 'stretched out' as used in the Bible corresponds directly with the currently held theory that our part of the Universe/Multiverse expanded and is countinuing to expand from a singularity?
 
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Of course that is your opinion. The passage very well could have been presented by God to convey the concept that the universe had a beginning and 'in the beginning' God "stretched out the heavens" to contain all which He created. You have not presented anything that would defeat that interpretation. But we respect your opinion – right or wrong.
And yet the position you present is opinion as well. I have given sound reasoning which shows that there is no reason to favor a Scriptural reading supporting an expanding universe.
 
And yet the position you present is opinion as well. I have given sound reasoning which shows that there is no reason to favor a Scriptural reading supporting an expanding universe.
Okay. Do you at least concede that the Bible conveys the concept that the universe had a beginning and 'in the beginning' God "stretched out the heavens" to contain all which He created? Would you also agree that this concept is in agreement with current scientific thought? Or would that truth be going beyond your current worldview?
 
'A Brief History of Time' was published in 1988. Did you source your reference directly from the book, or did you find it in a secondary source and, if so, can you tell us where? In either case, it may interest you to know that, in a lecture in 1996 available at his website, Professor Hawking discusses the BB singularity at some length:

'The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down. Nevertheless, the way the universe began would have been determined by the laws of physics, if the universe satisfied the no boundary condition. This says that in the imaginary time direction, space-time is finite in extent, but doesn't have any boundary or edge. The predictions of the no boundary proposal seem to agree with observation.'

Full text of the lecture here: http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html
I do have "A Brief History of Time" on my bookshelf, but because I'm lazy, and don't want to type out quotes -- it's easier to make my points from your quoted source, right?

The Steady State theory, was what Karl Popper would call, a good scientific theory: it made definite predictions, which could be tested by observation, and possibly falsified. Unfortunately for the theory, they were falsified.
My first point: While speaking about the Steady State theory, Hawking agrees with Popper's definition of 'a good scientific theory' as one that can be tested by observation and possibly falsified. But he just got done explaining why the Big Bang Theory could not be falsified: "At this time, the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe, would have been on top of itself. The density would have been infinite. It would have been what is called, a singularity. At a singularity, all the laws of physics would have broken down. This means that the state of the universe, after the Big Bang, will not depend on anything that may have happened before, because the deterministic laws that govern the universe will break down in the Big Bang. The universe will evolve from the Big Bang, completely independently of what it was like before. Even the amount of matter in the universe, can be different to what it was before the Big Bang, as the Law of Conservation of Matter, will break down at the Big Bang."

The BBT essentially declares that all bets are off, there was no observation (of course) and nothing can be determined about the universe prior. Talk about not being able to be falsified, yet the conclusion that BBT isn't a "good scientific theory" isn't made. It's just the best we got, so it must qualify, right?
As we look out at the universe, we are looking back in time, because light had to leave distant objects a long time ago, to reach us at the present time.
Second Point:Hawking doesn't consider the fact that light itself was created before the so-called source of light, the stars. This is clearly evident in Genesis and totally ignored by modern scientists.
The no boundary condition, is the statement that the laws of physics hold everywhere. Clearly, this is something that one would like to believe, but it is a hypothesis. One has to test it, by comparing the state of the universe that it would predict, with observations of what the universe is actually like. If the observations disagreed with the predictions of the no boundary hypothesis, we would have to conclude the hypothesis was false. There would have to be something outside the universe, to wind up the clockwork, and set the universe going. Of course, even if the observations do agree with the predictions, that does not prove that the no boundary proposal is correct.
Point Three:Hawking proposes "imaginary time" along with his 'no boundary hypothesis' which he likens to surface of the Earth, but with two more dimensions. He states, "The surface of the Earth is finite in extent, but it doesn't have any boundaries or edges. I have been round the world, and I didn't fall off." He goes on to offer this unprovable hypothesis as a plausible explanation for how the universe could have originated without external help. Clearly this is his point; science doesn't need God.

:chin According to Hawking, even IF the predictions of these theories were proven the 'no boundary' proposal would not be concluded correct. I guess my final point is that even at the furthest stretch of the imagination of one of the smartest men on earth our origins are nothing more than unprovable conjecture proposed solely to offer counter-point to the statement made so many thousands of years ago, "In the beginning, God..."
 
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