'The Bible tells me so' is wrong

[OzSpen]

You might be interested in this article by Dr Albert Mohler Jr: For the Bible Tells Me So: Biblical Authority Denied … Again

'Jesus loves me this I know, the Bible tells me so', is the problem according to Andy Stanley, that drives believers away from Christianity. So what does Stanley do?

Dr Mohler takes on this issue raised by Stanley: 'In a recent message delivered at North Point Community Church and posted online, Stanley identifies the evangelical impulse to turn to the Bible in our defense and presentation of Christianity as a huge blunder that must be corrected'.

Has Dr Mohler hit the mark in exposing Stanley's devaluation of the Bible?

Oz

 

[Free]

I didn't quite read the whole thing as I am on my way to bed, but I think I would agree with Dr. Mohler on this. It seems that Stanley begins with a low view of the Bible. Christianity is based on the history that is recorded in Scripture. Without the Bible there simply is no Christianity, IMO.

 

[OzSpen]

I didn't quite read the whole thing as I am on my way to bed, but I think I would agree with Dr. Mohler on this. It seems that Stanley begins with a low view of the Bible. Christianity is based on the history that is recorded in Scripture. Without the Bible there simply is no Christianity, IMO.

Free,

I think Dr Mohler hit the issue on the head. When any evangelicals dumb down on the importance of Scripture, they are heading in a dangerous direction.

Both you and I live in very secular countries. I know that when sharing Christ that I don't often start with the Bible - but I end there with the Gospel. I start where Paul began with the pagans on the Areopagus in Athens (Acts 17:22-31).

His starting point was with their view of god/God as they indicated with the words on the altar: 'For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you' (Acts 17:23 NIV).

Unless one has a high view of Scripture, the Gospel and biblical history, one will lose contact with the content of the Bible - as the theological liberals have shown us.

I do hope you had an excellent night's sleep.

Oz

 

[smaller]

There is no difference between the Word (written) and the Spirit.

When anyone goes down the road to divide and divides these, diminishing one over the other, they have fouled.

Isaiah 59:21
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

 

[Free]

There is no difference between the Word (written) and the Spirit.

When anyone goes down the road to divide and divides these, diminishing one over the other, they have fouled.
...
Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

You're doing it again. Eph. 6:17 says "the sword of the Spirit...is the word of God," not "the Spirit...is the word of God."

(And you need to put the Bible version if it is not public domain. That looks like the ESV.)

 

[smaller]

You're doing it again. Eph. 6:17 says "the sword of the Spirit...is the word of God," not "the Spirit...is the word of God."

(And you need to put the Bible version if it is not public domain. That looks like the ESV.)

There is no difference between Gods Words and Gods Spirit, if that is the claim you are trying to make free. The Word teaches us that The Word is Alive and Active:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

And if by public domain, you mean do the quotes come from a free online source? Yes. In any case the site links properly cited scriptures.

 

[Free]

There is no difference between Gods Words and Gods Spirit, if that is the claim you are trying to make free. The Word teaches us that The Word is Alive and Active:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

I am not saying whether or not your overall point is correct, I'm just pointing out that you're misusing Scripture in trying to support your point.

And if by public domain, you mean do the quotes come from a free online source? Yes.

Being in the public domain means that a copyright no longer applies. Many Bibles are copyrighted and hence need to be referenced, as per the TOS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain

 

[smaller]

I am not saying whether or not your overall point is correct, I'm just pointing out that you're misusing Scripture in trying to support your point.

How so free?

That's why I asked you if you are imposing a difference between what we accept as Gods Words and Gods Spirit.

I see no distinction and would likewise see that many theological issues arise from making such a divide.

There is no difference between The Author and His Words.

 

[Free]

How so free?

That's why I asked you if you are imposing a difference between what we accept as Gods Words and Gods Spirit.

I see no distinction and would likewise see that many theological issues arise from making such a divide.

There is no difference between The Author and His Words.

What do you mean "how so"? I clearly showed how so. By your bolding and underlining, you are making Eph. 6:17 say something it doesn't.

Eph. 6:17 according to the ESV: "the sword of the Spirit...is the word of God."
Eph. 6:17 according to you: "the Spirit...is the word of God."

Do you see the difference? Those are saying to very different things.

 

[smaller]

What do you mean "how so"? I clearly showed how so. By your bolding and underlining, you are making Eph. 6:17 say something it doesn't.

You should at least footnote that comment to mean "as you see it." Perhaps there is the distinction.

Eph. 6:17 according to the ESV: "the sword of the Spirit...is the word of God."
Eph. 6:17 according to you: "the Spirit...is the word of God."

I see no distinction between the Sword, the Spirit, The Word. Trying to make divides there where there are none to be seen doesn't compute for me.

Rev. 1:
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Perhaps it is upon you to provide that these are not the same. You can add His Mouth to the mix if you prefer and make a divide there as well.

Do you see the difference? Those are saying to very different things.

I see no difference free. There is no legitimately dividing God away from His Word, His Spirit, His Mouth or His Sword any more than there is legitimacy in dividing Jesus from God, because it's not a legit practice. These are all basic fouls of christian theology.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The Bible tells me so is right.
The spirit of God sees to that.

 

[Free]

You should at least footnote that comment to mean "as you see it." Perhaps there is the distinction.

I have posted the Scripture--Eph. 6:17--which clearly shows you are making it say something it doesn't.

I see no distinction between the Sword, the Spirit, The Word. Trying to make divides there where there are none to be seen doesn't compute for me.

No one is making divides where there are none.

Rev. 1:
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Perhaps it is upon you to provide that these are not the same. You can add His Mouth to the mix if you prefer and make a divide there as well.

I really don't know what your point is here. If anything, that passage supports what I have been saying about Eph. 6:17--the sword is the Word of God.

I see no difference free. There is no legitimately dividing God away from His Word, His Spirit, His Mouth or His Sword any more than there is legitimacy in dividing Jesus from God, because it's not a legit practice. These are all basic fouls of christian theology.

I have made none of those claims and I am dividing nothing. Please stop misrepresenting what I have stated. Look again at post #7: "I am not saying whether or not your overall point is correct, I'm just pointing out that you're misusing Scripture [Eph. 6:17] in trying to support your point."

If you want to talk about "basic fouls of Christian theology," perhaps you should look again at making the Bible say something it doesn't:

Eph. 6:17 according to the ESV: "the sword of the Spirit...is the word of God."
Eph. 6:17 according to you: "the Spirit...is the word of God."

Those are saying two different things.

 

[Free]

Free,

I think Dr Mohler hit the issue on the head. When any evangelicals dumb down on the importance of Scripture, they are heading in a dangerous direction.

Both you and I live in very secular countries. I know that when sharing Christ that I don't often start with the Bible - but I end there with the Gospel. I start where Paul began with the pagans on the Areopagus in Athens (Acts 17:22-31).

His starting point was with their view of god/God as they indicated with the words on the altar: 'For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you' (Acts 17:23 NIV).

Unless one has a high view of Scripture, the Gospel and biblical history, one will lose contact with the content of the Bible - as the theological liberals have shown us.

I do hope you had an excellent night's sleep.

Oz

My sleep could have been better, thanks to one of my needy cats.

I agree with you. In our countries we simply cannot start from the Bible, unless it is clear that the person to whom we are talking is ready to hear it. I really think there is a lot to learn from Paul's approach.

 

[smaller]

I have posted the Scripture--Eph. 6:17--which clearly shows you are making it say something it doesn't.

I've read no differently than what that scripture itself says, that the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God.

It is only your imposition trying to make the divides. Scripture doesn't make any divide in the matters.

No one is making divides where there are none.

Then what you are you complaining about, exactly?

 

[Douglas Summers]

You might be interested in this article by Dr Albert Mohler Jr: For the Bible Tells Me So: Biblical Authority Denied … Again

'Jesus loves me this I know, the Bible tells me so', is the problem according to Andy Stanley, that drives believers away from Christianity. So what does Stanley do?

Dr Mohler takes on this issue raised by Stanley: 'In a recent message delivered at North Point Community Church and posted online, Stanley identifies the evangelical impulse to turn to the Bible in our defense and presentation of Christianity as a huge blunder that must be corrected'.

Has Dr Mohler hit the mark in exposing Stanley's devaluation of the Bible?

Oz

Hi Oz, There is an order in the birth of a born again Christian. The first is hearing (planting), The second is seeking, (watering), The third is growing (fertilizing), The fourth is cultivating (readying the crop for harvest) and The fifth is the full fruit (ready for the harvest). The sower sowed the word of God (Christ). Wherever it took root, God drew them to Christ, and as believers grows, it is by the Knowledge of God, and the receiving of the Holy Spirit brings him to full term, as he dies to self,ready for the harvest..

Man has only one part in this process, to believe. (Rom. 10:13-17) (John 6:41-51) (Matt. 13:15) (Luke 13:6-9) (John 12:25). The only part man has in his salvation is to repent (believe). God does everything else for man. Man adds nothing to his salvation. Faith is the only entrance through the gate. (John 10:27-30) Study all of John Chapter 10. The Scriptures are Supernatural, and are not subject to carnal understanding. Stanley is carnal and evaluates from that position.

 

[Free]

I've read no differently than what that scripture itself says, that the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God.

It is only your imposition trying to make the divides. Scripture doesn't make any divide in the matters.

This is the second thread now where you are changing your argument. You first stated: "There is no difference between the Word (written) and the Spirit." You then gave Eph. 6:17, bolding and underlining specific parts to support that statement: "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"

If you didn't intend to say, "the Spirit...is the word of God," then why did you bold and underline those specific parts to support your assertion that "There is no difference between the Word (written) and the Spirit"?

Then what you are you complaining about, exactly?

What very much looks like your purposeful misuse of Scripture. And now your changing of an argument in the middle of a discussion.

 

[smaller]

This is the second thread now where you are changing your argument. You first stated: "There is no difference between the Word (written) and the Spirit."

Indeed, that is TRUE. Are you saying it's not?

I added the Sword and the Mouth to the equations as well as The Father and The Son. Are we going to cut them all to pieces?

You then gave Eph. 6:17, bolding and underlining specific parts to support that statement: "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"

I believe that to be true, because there is no difference between Gods Spirit and His Word.

IF you are making that claim, knock yourself out.

 

[WIP]

Indeed, that is TRUE. Are you saying it's not?

I added the Sword and the Mouth to the equations as well as The Father and The Son. Are we going to cut them all to pieces?



I believe that to be true, because there is no difference between Gods Spirit and His Word.

IF you are making that claim, knock yourself out.

I thought Jesus was the Incarnate Word of God.

 

[smaller]

I thought Jesus was the Incarnate Word of God.

Which makes Jesus what? Different than His Own Spoken/written Words?

An unsupportable theological premise.

When Jesus spoke Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 He Spoke of His Own Words, not only prior spoken, but subsequently spoken.

Now, is the Spirit of God against the Word of God? Again, a no go and a non-starter.

It is impossible to pit Gods Word against His Spirit. It is equally impossible to divide. There is no divide to be had.

The law (Gods Word) is spiritual. Romans 7:14.

The prophets spoke "The Word of God" how?

1 Peter 1:
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Jesus described His Own Words, thusly:

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I really don't know what to say to those who relegate Gods Own Words into the "dead letter" only, past and gone, one and done, category.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz, There is an order in the birth of a born again Christian. The first is hearing (planting), The second is seeking, (watering), The third is growing (fertilizing), The fourth is cultivating (readying the crop for harvest) and The fifth is the full fruit (ready for the harvest). The sower sowed the word of God (Christ). Wherever it took root, God drew them to Christ, and as believers grows, it is by the Knowledge of God, and the receiving of the Holy Spirit brings him to full term, as he dies to self,ready for the harvest..

Man has only one part in this process, to believe. (Rom. 10:13-17) (John 6:41-51) (Matt. 13:15) (Luke 13:6-9) (John 12:25). The only part man has in his salvation is to repent (believe). God does everything else for man. Man adds nothing to his salvation. Faith is the only entrance through the gate. (John 10:27-30) Study all of John Chapter 10. The Scriptures are Supernatural, and are not subject to carnal understanding. Stanley is carnal and evaluates from that position.

Doug,

In the steps to salvation that you have given, I think you have missed one of them and that is found in John 6:44 (ESV) and John 12:32 (ESV):

• John 6:44 (ESV), 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day'.
• John 12:32 (ESV), 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself'.

So, no person will become a Christian unless the Father draws that person to salvation. However, John 12:32 (ESV) indicates that from the time of Jesus being 'lifted up', his crucifixion, all people will be drawn to him.

How will they be drawn without the proclamation of the Gospel?

Dr Mohler is showing what happens when a person such as Andy Stanley denigrates the Scripture. We know where this takes us. Theological liberalism has done just that and we have seen churches drained of people and the Gospel decimated.

Twenty-five years ago I was a pastor in our capital city of Canberra when rank heretic, John Shelby Spong, visited the city and received plenty of publicity in the local press, on radio and TV. I asked for a right of reply, which the Canberra Times gave me. This was the article I wrote to counter his theology: 'The Gospel distortion: A reply to John Shelby Spong'.

The biblical downgrade has many faces, but hacking into the authority of Scripture is one of the primary means.

Oz