'The Bible tells me so' is wrong

[Douglas Summers]

I know he attends a Southern Baptist church in Georgia but it must have a weak statement of faith to be able to accommodate his kinds of beliefs. Or do they not challenge him as a tottery old man who was born on October 1, 1924, and is now aged 91?

Last I heard, he has left that church because of disagreements, and that has been recently. I do not believe in vertical evolution. (monkey to man) Scripture does not teach it, and I knew that instinctively as a child before I knew Scripture. But vertical evolution is evident. Creation adapting to it's environment, as in the adapting to climate and location.as also of plants and animals to some degree. But they were never independent of God's creative fiat.

 

[OzSpen]

Last I heard, he has left that church because of disagreements, and that has been recently. I do not believe in vertical evolution. (monkey to man) Scripture does not teach it, and I knew that instinctively as a child before I knew Scripture. But vertical evolution is evident. Creation adapting to it's environment, as in the adapting to climate and location.as also of plants and animals to some degree. But they were never independent of God's creative fiat.

Could you have made an error when you stated, ' But vertical evolution is evident. Creation adapting to it's environment....' This is horizontal evolution, i.e. micro-evolution.

Vertical evolution, i.e. macro-evolution, is monkey to man.

Oz

 

[Douglas Summers]

Could you have made an error when you stated, ' But vertical evolution is evident. Creation adapting to it's environment....' This is horizontal evolution, i.e. micro-evolution.

Vertical evolution, i.e. macro-evolution, is monkey to man.

Oz

I meant horizontal. The only excuse I have is my age. I'm soon to be 71. But I'am glad you catch them. Thanks.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I didn't quite read the whole thing as I am on my way to bed, but I think I would agree with Dr. Mohler on this. It seems that Stanley begins with a low view of the Bible. Christianity is based on the history that is recorded in Scripture. Without the Bible there simply is no Christianity, IMO.

If we are indeed a Christian, we must believe that the Christian Bible is from God. He inspired it!

However to think that Christianity is based on the history that is recorded in the Scriptures is just wrong!!!

Christianity is based up the reality of God, meaning the reality of Jesus Christ. That is simply to say we can get to know Jesus Christ, the Word of God!!!

So Christianity is based upon Christ, and that is what the Bible tells us!!

I'm not sure I agree with either apparent side from the OP. Any attempt to have Christianity without the Bible is wrong, but so is any attempt to have Christianity based on knowing the bible as opposed to knowing Jesus Christ.

The Lord once told me, "There are two mistakes you can make. One is to not believe the Bible and the other is to not believe the Bible is right."

If you think that the Bible is not from God and thus is not needed, it is a mistake. But another mistake you can make is to think the Bible is from God but to think you do not have to listen to our Lord Jesus Christ via the Spirit of God like the Bible clear tells us.

It seems to me that both those mistakes are being presented as possibly correct (depending on what side you take) on this thread. The first words the Lord told me were, "READ YOUR BIBLE." But it isn't knowing the bible but knowing personally the One who told me to read it that is important. Jesus told Martha that only one thing was truly needed, and that was listening to Him like Mary was doing.

So you can have an unbeliever that doesn't think the Bible is from God, and you can have an unbeliever that thinks the Bible is from God but doesn't think we have to listen to the Son like the Father instructed.

Mat 17:5 ... :"This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"

If you believe in Jesus Christ you will listen to Him, because He is in our midst.

Rm 10:6 but the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows:"DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?'' (that is, to bring Christ down).... But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in you mouth and in your heart" and that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

That 'word of God' is not the Bible, it is Jesus Christ talking to you via the Holy Spirit. And He is going to tell you to "Read Your Bible", at least that was what I heard from Him.

So the Good News (the Gospel) is not that we have the Bible, but that we have access to Jesus Christ and thus God. The Bible proclaims the Good News, but is not the Good News. So lets us listen to that still small voice that tells us Jesus Christ is Lord and listen to Him. You'll know it is Him, because He is going to teach you out of the Bible. And then you will know that true Christianity makes us followers of Jesus Christ, who lives.

I have wrote sooo much, but let me give a good example. In the mornings I sit and talk with Him. He has asked me to always have a Bible available at that time and we usually go over it, but not always. The other day He asked me to walk to the donut shop with Him. He started talking about being the friend of God. He ask me to consider how He felt. He then gave an example and asked me, "Karl, if you had a king in a starry castle that rule everyday a mighty empire, and one morning this king meet up with a friend and slipped unnoticed out of the castle to walk to the donut shop, don't you think that might be the best part of the kings day?"

Jesus is the Lord of lords and commands all things, but often His best times are simply walking and talking to you as His friend. We then talked about my son's soccer team. And when I got to the donut shop he told me, "Karl, this is why I need you to preach Me as the Word of God. I don't just want to command the Kingdom of God, I want to walk with my friends."

If someone doesn't know Jesus Christ like that, they might want to work on their relationship with Him. And if someone is thinking Christianity is based on the Bible, could it be that they don't know Him like that? Abraham was the friend of God and they ate together. We read that in the Bible, so how is it we don't think it is supposed to be like that? Did we think the Bible is actually right?

 

[Douglas Summers]

I'm not sure I agree with either apparent side from the OP. Any attempt to have Christianity without the Bible is wrong, but so is any attempt to have Christianity based on knowing the bible as opposed to knowing Jesus Christ.

Man can not come to Christ unless the father draws him. (John 6:44-45). You have to hear the word of God (Rom. 10: 10-15) and respond to it before the Father can draw you to Christ. Here is an event in the Bible of how God draws you by the word received. (Luke 24:13-32). This is Spiritual knowledge, not carnal, and many will miss the witness of the event because of their carnal reasoning. If you don't know the Bible (The Word), you will not know Christ. (John 1:1-2) Christianity is the creation of man. But Salvation and born again believers are created by our Lord God and Savior, Amen.

 

[OzSpen]

I meant horizontal. The only excuse I have is my age. I'm soon to be 71. But I'am glad you catch them. Thanks.

Douglas,

I thought that was what you meant. I'm not far behind you in age. It is not good to use that as an excuse if we have our senses still, to be able to write coherent sentences.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

If we are indeed a Christian, we must believe that the Christian Bible is from God. He inspired it!

However to think that Christianity is based on the history that is recorded in the Scriptures is just wrong!!!

K2,

Do you understand the contradiction in the statements you made in those 2 paragraphs. You have violated the law of non-contradiction. You stated:

1. A Christian must believe that the Christian Bible is from God.
2. To state that Christianity is based on the history recorded in the Scriptures is wrong.

The contradiction in your statements is that the Bible is from God. God cannot lie (Heb 6:18 ESV). Therefore, the history recorded in Scripture about Christianity has to be truth, not lies.

I suggest that you re-examine your epistemology - the theory of how we acquire knowledge - so that you do not promote the kind of contradiction you have made with this post.

Oz

 

[K2CHRIST]

K2,

Do you understand the contradiction in the statements you made in those 2 paragraphs. You have violated the law of non-contradiction. You stated:

1. A Christian must believe that the Christian Bible is from God.
2. To state that Christianity is based on the history recorded in the Scriptures is wrong.

The contradiction in your statements is that the Bible is from God. God cannot lie (Heb 6:18 ESV). Therefore, the history recorded in Scripture about Christianity has to be truth, not lies.

I suggest that you re-examine your epistemology - the theory of how we acquire knowledge - so that you do not promote the kind of contradiction you have made with this post.

Oz

Christianity is based on a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ, and God has that recorded in the Bible.

Sp no, I havn't made contradictory statements, but have you failed to realize the Scriptures are correct?

The Scriptures tell us that God is real in that He is alive and active. So history is a record of what He did, not just in the Scriptures but all history. So the while the Scriptures contain some history, and a some history that is supposed to point people to the Lord Jesus Christ, if a person thinks Christianity is based on the Scriptures instead of based on Jesus Christ through whom all things were created, they are simply wrong.

The problem is that people think that Christians are supposed to follow the Scriptures, but the Scriptures explain that we are supposed to follow Jesus Christ. Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and that He leads them out with His voice. His book is not His voice, but what we tend to call His small voice is HIs voice.

Now, if a person is following Jesus Christ and the instructions He personally tells them, aren't they going to hear Him go over the Bible with them. I think so, but perhaps not everyone has a Bible. They can still know Him. So the Bible is from God but it is not God. Abram knew God but he did not have a Bible.

Paul explain to the Romans that there wre Jews the were zealous for God but who did not know God. And there is nothing new under the sun. There are still people that are zealous for God but not according to their personally knowing God. Someone like that, like many Jews in the time of Paul, can be zealous for the Scriptures. They tend to say things like "We have to follow the Scriptures". But if they did actually follow the Scriptures they would be seeking the Lord who is Omni-present. But they don't seek Him because they don't believe the Bible is correct even though they believe the Bible is from God.

That is not a contradiction, but rather that was a sad fact the Paul tried to deal with and it is still a sad fact today. Still today there are many people that are zealous for God and believe the Scriptures are from God but they don't seek the voice of the Lord. So the Bible is still applicable today.

Isaiah put it this way; Is 1:2 Listen, O heavens, and hear O earth; For the Lord speaks,

They (the Jews) were not seeking to hear from God at that time either, though clearly instructed to. So it resulted in them not knowing the Lord. We get to know someone by having conversation back and forth with them. So Isaiah explained that also.

Isaiah 1:3 An ox knows its owner, and a donkey its master's manger, But Israel does not know, My people do not understand.

They just did understand that God wanted to talk to them. He wants to speak to us personally today. Jesus went the cross so that our sin would get in the way. But still we (in general) don't seek Him. Some might look to the book (Bible), but reading a book someone wrote is not the same thing as sitting down and having a conversation back and forth with them.

PS, and concerning how we acquire knowledge, might I point you to Prov 2:6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

So I suggest you try talking to Him and listening to what comes out of His mouth. Isaiah put it like this : Is 2:3,,, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His way.

Yet concerning others it was written, Is 6:9 Go, and tell this people; 'Keep on listening, but to not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull and their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed.."

 

[K2CHRIST]

Man can not come to Christ unless the father draws him. (John 6:44-45). You have to hear the word of God (Rom. 10: 10-15) and respond to it before the Father can draw you to Christ. Here is an event in the Bible of how God draws you by the word received. (Luke 24:13-32). This is Spiritual knowledge, not carnal, and many will miss the witness of the event because of their carnal reasoning. If you don't know the Bible (The Word), you will not know Christ. (John 1:1-2) Christianity is the creation of man. But Salvation and born again believers are created by our Lord God and Savior, Amen.

Yes, man can not come to Christ unless the father draws him. But the Bible is not the Father, it is writing the God had written. So just a you might write a book the book is still not you. You are alive, but a book is not. A book might reflect what you thought and give us an indication of how you might thing, but a book does not think.

So it is we must know God and that is accomplish by listening to what He personally tells you.

So you statement "If you don't know the bible (The Word), you will not know Christ is wrong. Abraham did not know the Bible but he knew the Lord, as recorded in the Scriptures, thus proving you wrong.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear Abram, I am a shield to you......

Gen 15:6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

There was no Bible or Scriptures written down at that point, but the word of Lord came and spoke to Abram. Abram believe that it was God speaking to him and God counted that belief as righteousness to Abram. And Paul explain that the off spring of Abraham. So it is great to write "But salvation and born again believers are created by our Lord God and Savior, Amen", but if you don't know Jesus Christ as the Word of God (meaning He speaks to us just like Abram) and not just that He left a book who do you know?

Today we call both the Scriptures (because people wrote down what the Lord told them) and Jesus Christ (because He will personally talk to us) "The Word of God". But we preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, even because of Jews that wanted it, even though they knew the Scriptures.

Gal 3:22 But the Scriptures has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

We are not believing in the Scriptures, we are believing in Jesus Christ, the word of the Lord who came to Abram saying.....

 

[Free]

If we are indeed a Christian, we must believe that the Christian Bible is from God. He inspired it!

However to think that Christianity is based on the history that is recorded in the Scriptures is just wrong!!!

As was pointed out, these two statements stand in contradiction. Do you think that the resurrection of Jesus actually happened? Do you believe that the Fall of man was literal?

Christianity is based up the reality of God, meaning the reality of Jesus Christ. That is simply to say we can get to know Jesus Christ, the Word of God!!!

So Christianity is based upon Christ, and that is what the Bible tells us!!

What do you mean by "God"? Who do you say that Jesus is? What do you mean by "the Word of God"?

Any attempt to have Christianity without the Bible is wrong, but so is any attempt to have Christianity based on knowing the bible as opposed to knowing Jesus Christ.

Your own argument shoots itself in the foot. If we didn't have the Bible, we wouldn't even know that we have to know Jesus. We wouldn't even know who Jesus is or why it's important to know him. Put simply, without the Bible, there would be no salvation.

The Lord once told me, "There are two mistakes you can make. One is to not believe the Bible and the other is to not believe the Bible is right."

There are many mistakes one can make, such as making the Bible say more than it does or making it say less than it does.

 

[OzSpen]

Christianity is based on a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ, and God has that recorded in the Bible.

Sp no, I havn't made contradictory statements, but have you failed to realize the Scriptures are correct?

K2,

You again present contradictory information about Jesus. You will not come to personal knowledge of Jesus Christ if it were not for God's revelation about Jesus in the Bible that is accurate and truthful.

So, 'The Bible tells me so' is correct, absolutely correct, about what it states about who Jesus is and my need for a relationship with Him.

You won't get that information from Tacitus (Roman historian) or Josephus (Jewish historian).

Please understand that I'm not picking on you. I'm not. But when you violate a fundamental law of logic, the law of non-contradiction, it demonstrates that we can't have a logical discussion. Contradictions make for lousy dialogue topics.

Oz

 

[Douglas Summers]

So the while the Scriptures contain some history, and a some history that is supposed to point people to the Lord Jesus Christ, if a person thinks Christianity is based on the Scriptures instead of based on Jesus Christ through whom all things were created, they are simply wrong.

The word of God is a living Book, a book of life. And I'am alive because of the Scriptures of life that God spoke. Christ created all things, that includes the Bible (in it's original text). It is not a book of Christianity, Christianity is man created idea. And it is not a book of history, it is a book of mans disobedience and God's grace. It is a portrait of God.

 

[OzSpen]

The word of God is a living Book, a book of life. And I'am alive because of the Scriptures of life that God spoke. Christ created all things, that includes the Bible (in it's original text). It is not a book of Christianity, Christianity is man created idea. And it is not a book of history, it is a book of mans disobedience and God's grace. It is a portrait of God.

Douglas,

What would be your definition of history? What is it? You say that the Bible 'is not a book of history', hence my need for clarification on your definition.

Oz

 

[K2CHRIST]

Douglas,

What would be your definition of history? What is it? You say that the Bible 'is not a book of history', hence my need for clarification on your definition.

Oz

The Bible has historical facts but to think of the Bible as a history book show a complete misunderstanding of God intentions. The Bible has so much more than historical facts!!!! You we see where people tend to group the books of the Bible into groups of which only one is history! You will see the books of Law, and of Poetry & Wisdom, and of Major and Minor prophets, and the Gospel, and Letters.

So God purpose for having the Scriptures written was to teach you from, not to give you a history book!. But if you are not hearing from the Teacher, you just are not going to understand, because understanding is going to come from His mouth. (See Prov 2:6)

My friend, God controls events. He doesn't perform every action, but He is Lord of lords over His creation and thus has control. I believe theologians like to use the term Provence. That includes all things because that is what He created. So He has control of history. All history!

The Bible is not then His history book, but it does have historical event that He choose to cause in order to teach us from.. This is easily seen in Psalms 78, where it starts off by pointing out that He teaches us with parables and saying, then we get a summary of the history of the Israelites. That is to say the history of the Israelites is in parable form! And if in parable form; their history is used by God to teach us.

It is written that they will all be taught by God. Of course 'they' doesn't refer to everyone because Jesus told some "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word." (Jn 8:43) They could hear what He was saying to them in sound waves right then, but they could not hear with their spiritual ears. They were not taught by God. But they did study the Scriptures.

Some think that reading and studying the Bible is hearing from God, but the Scriptures above disprove that. It is like someone that buys a text book for a class and reads it thinking they took the class. But to take the class you have to listen to the Teacher who will require you to read the text book.

My friend, God is not trying to teach you history, He is trying to develop you as a person. So His class is not a history class it is a class on wisdom and understanding. Yet we don't pick that up too well, meaning we don't listen to God too well. That is what we see with the history of the Jews. They didn't listen to God and so had many problems in their history. And people are people. That same thing is true with all people. The Christian history is an embarrassment, because Christian people have done no better at listening to the Lord any more than the Jews did, thought bought groups were chosen by God.

I've gone long again, but it is really very simple. We need to listen to the Lord our God daily! And that is not the same thing as reading your Bible. The Bible is not God it is His book! May I suggest you ask Him where to read in your Bible and what meaning He wants to show you. That of course will require a belief in a God that is always with you, but that is what we are preaching!

 

[K2CHRIST]

The word of God is a living Book, a book of life. And I'am alive because of the Scriptures of life that God spoke. Christ created all things, that includes the Bible (in it's original text). It is not a book of Christianity, Christianity is man created idea. And it is not a book of history, it is a book of mans disobedience and God's grace. It is a portrait of God.

The Bible is not alive! Jesus is alive!

The Bible does not think! It can not take action! It does not move around your house while you are asleep. But Jesus does all that!

The problem comes from the fact that today we call both the Scriptures and Jesus "The Word of God" So we read where the word is alive and active and miss where it says "He". So we think the bible is alive and active, forgetting that Jesus is alive and active.

And being careful not to get into an argument of semantics, which we are not supposed to do: Christianity is supposed to be following Jesus Christ, meaning we walk and to what He personally asks us to do. However I also understand that Christianity, for practical purposes, has become a religion to where a person lives by reading His bible, goes by the traditions of the congregation, and tries to be a good person by leaning on his own understanding and the understanding of other people, as opposed to actually seeking God and what He has to say to them. So we have the same situation today that existed with the Isrealites before us.

Is 29:1 Woe, O Arriel, Ariel the city where David once camped! Add year to year, observer your feasts on schedule. I will bring distress to Ariel.

Is 29:12, 13 Then the book will be given to the one who is illiterate, saying, "Please read this." And he will say, "I cannot read." Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words and honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me. And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote.

How are we not like that? We have a book but we don't find Him. We don't listen to what He says to us. Instead we learn by tradition and rote. We just don't spend time listening to what HE our Lord has to say to us

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen to the instruction of the Lord.

If a person has indeed been listening to the Lord their God daily, how can they not understand that He is the Teacher? If truly they listen to the Lord Jesus Christ who said He would never lever them, they will know that He is alive and active. They will know He teaches them. They will know He instructs them. They will know that Christianity is suppose to make us His followers, His disciples, and His children. You will know that He is the living and active Word of God. The Scriptures are His book. That is how is reads!

Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called "The Word of God".

So He is the Word of God but He is not the Scriptures

Gal 3:23 But the Scriptures has shut up everyone under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those that believe.

And it is important to know this, because it is also written, Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

So it is good to know the Scriptures but the Scriptures did not save anyone. The Christ is God's salvation, which is what the name Jesus means. So why would we write, " I'am alive because of the Scriptures of life that God spoke'? The Pharisees and Sadducees read the Scriptures and that didn't save them. The Scriptures were intended to lead you to the Christ who we call Jesus (God's Salvation) for a reason! He is alive and active and His name is called the Word of God. And that because He talks to us personally. But perhaps not everyone understand that?

 

[K2CHRIST]

I wrote:"
If we are indeed a Christian, we must believe that the Christian Bible is from God. He inspired it!

However to think that Christianity is based on the history that is recorded in the Scriptures is just wrong!!!"

And you responded with:

As was pointed out, these two statements stand in contradiction. Do you think that the resurrection of Jesus actually happened? Do you believe that the Fall of man was literal?

Do you not understand that Christianity is based upon Jesus Christ? And Jesus Christ is not the Scriptures!!

Now you ask me if I think the resurrection actual happened? I was wonder if you thought the resurrection actually happened!

I believe it happened because Jesus Christ talks to me via the Holy Spirit. If you truly believe it happened how come you point to history instead of your current relationship with the Lord?

And as for me thinking the Fall of man was literal: I don't think Adam fell and stubbed his nose! Adam was thrown out of the garden, it was not a literal fall, but a separation occurred. Still people after that fall could and did talk to God. And that before any Scriptures were written, but we have it recorded in the Scriptures so you should know you can hear from the Lord today also. So it was written that the Scriptures can give you wisdom that leads to salvation through Jesus Christ. But that does mean you got that wisdom. If you did you should know that Christianity is based on Christ, not the Scriptures.

 

[OzSpen]

The Bible has historical facts but to think of the Bible as a history book show a complete misunderstanding of God intentions. The Bible has so much more than historical facts!!!! You we see where people tend to group the books of the Bible into groups of which only one is history! You will see the books of Law, and of Poetry & Wisdom, and of Major and Minor prophets, and the Gospel, and Letters.

So God purpose for having the Scriptures written was to teach you from, not to give you a history book!. But if you are not hearing from the Teacher, you just are not going to understand, because understanding is going to come from His mouth. (See Prov 2:6)

My friend, God controls events. He doesn't perform every action, but He is Lord of lords over His creation and thus has control. I believe theologians like to use the term Provence. That includes all things because that is what He created. So He has control of history. All history!

The Bible is not then His history book, but it does have historical event that He choose to cause in order to teach us from.. This is easily seen in Psalms 78, where it starts off by pointing out that He teaches us with parables and saying, then we get a summary of the history of the Israelites. That is to say the history of the Israelites is in parable form! And if in parable form; their history is used by God to teach us.

It is written that they will all be taught by God. Of course 'they' doesn't refer to everyone because Jesus told some "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word." (Jn 8:43) They could hear what He was saying to them in sound waves right then, but they could not hear with their spiritual ears. They were not taught by God. But they did study the Scriptures.

Some think that reading and studying the Bible is hearing from God, but the Scriptures above disprove that. It is like someone that buys a text book for a class and reads it thinking they took the class. But to take the class you have to listen to the Teacher who will require you to read the text book.

My friend, God is not trying to teach you history, He is trying to develop you as a person. So His class is not a history class it is a class on wisdom and understanding. Yet we don't pick that up too well, meaning we don't listen to God too well. That is what we see with the history of the Jews. They didn't listen to God and so had many problems in their history. And people are people. That same thing is true with all people. The Christian history is an embarrassment, because Christian people have done no better at listening to the Lord any more than the Jews did, thought bought groups were chosen by God.

I've gone long again, but it is really very simple. We need to listen to the Lord our God daily! And that is not the same thing as reading your Bible. The Bible is not God it is His book! May I suggest you ask Him where to read in your Bible and what meaning He wants to show you. That of course will require a belief in a God that is always with you, but that is what we are preaching!

K2,

I agree that you've 'gone long again' and do you know what? You completely avoided answering the questions I asked Douglas, 'What is history?'

Therefore your reply is a red herring fallacy. What is that?

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Topic A is under discussion.
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim (Nizkor Project: Red Herring Fallacy).​

My 14-year-old grandson would call it a 'rave' about something unrelated to the topic I asked about - a definition of history.

Oz

​

 

[K2CHRIST]

I wrote: "
"Christianity is based up the reality of God, meaning the reality of Jesus Christ. That is simply to say we can get to know Jesus Christ, the Word of God!!!

So Christianity is based upon Christ, and that is what the Bible tells us!!"

You wrote:

What do you mean by "God"? Who do you say that Jesus is? What do you mean by "the Word of God"?

I'm not sure how you don't get my meaning. But John put it like this:

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

Jesus Christ is the Word, He was with God and He was God. If you can understand that verse you should be able to understand me.

Rev 19:20 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood and His name is called The Word of God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. But we also call the Scriptures the Word of God. Jesus is called the Word because He speaks to us. The Scriptures are called the Word of God because He spoke to others and they wrote down what He said to them, and God preserved those writing to teach us from. But the Scriptures are not Jesus.

Gal 3:23 But the Scriptures has shut up everyone under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those that believe.

So if you lift up your Bible and say it is the Word of God understand, but we preach Jesus Christ and He is not the Scriptures, but His name is The Word of God. So it is that Christianity is based upon knowing Jesus Christ, not knowing your Bible! Of course if you know Jesus Christ you will know that if you have a Bible He will ask you to read it. But if you are reading it and don't know Jesus Christ, then you have a problem.

 

[OzSpen]

So if you lift up your Bible and say it is the Word of God understand, but we preach Jesus Christ and He is not the Scriptures, but His name is The Word of God. So it is that Christianity is based upon knowing Jesus Christ, not knowing your Bible! Of course if you know Jesus Christ you will know that if you have a Bible He will ask you to read it. But if you are reading it and don't know Jesus Christ, then you have a problem.

K2,

What additional information will you receive about Jesus Christ than what is in your Bible? Do you have some deeper knowledge about Him that is not available to the rest of us on this forum?

Oz

 

[K2CHRIST]

says Andy Stanley, and that problem is a reliance on the Bible that is both unwarranted and unhelpful

No problem, Schleiermacher responded — we can still salvage spiritual and moral value out of Christianity while jettisoning its troublesome doctrinal claims, supernatural structure, and dependence upon the Bible. He was certain that his strategy would “save” Christianity from irrelevance.

K2,

I agree that you've 'gone long again' and do you know what? You completely avoided answering the questions I asked Douglas, 'What is history?'

Therefore your reply is a red herring fallacy. What is that?

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Topic A is under discussion.
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim (Nizkor Project: Red Herring Fallacy).​

My 14-year-old grandson would call it a 'rave' about something unrelated to the topic I asked about - a definition of history.

Oz

​

I saw that you were going over things with Doug, but my comment began off your OP, or have you forgotten your OP?

You reference an article which from which I have quotes below:

"says Andy Stanley, and that problem is a reliance on the Bible that is both unwarranted and unhelpful"

"No problem, Schleiermacher responded — we can still salvage spiritual and moral value out of Christianity while jettisoning its troublesome doctrinal claims, supernatural structure, and dependence upon the Bible. He was certain that his strategy would “save” Christianity from irrelevance."

And You posted
"Dr Mohler takes on this issue raised by Stanley: 'In a recent message delivered at North Point Community Church and posted online, Stanley identifies the evangelical impulse to turn to the Bible in our defense and presentation of Christianity as a huge blunder that must be corrected'.

Has Dr Mohler hit the mark in exposing Stanley's devaluation of the Bible?"

The problem with all the above thinking is the failure to understand that we are supposed to be relying on Jesus Christ!! So all of them are wrong!! The whole idea of reliance on the Bile or the failure to rely on the Bible is all wrong. And that was your topic!! But perhaps you forgot?

Stanley is wondering about a reliance on the Bible, but Christian are not supposed to be doing that. We are supposed to be relying on Jesus Christ who does ask us to read the Bible.

Schleiemacher wants to jettison the use of the Bible and thinks we can still have moral values without it. But he fails to realize Christian values come from Christ not the Bible. People have used the bible to support allsorts of despicable acts. So only knowing Christ will get you the values we need.

Dr. Mohler raises a defense by turning people to the bible instead of using the bible to turn people the our Lord Jesus Christ.

And you think bringing up Christ is a red hearing?