The blasphemous view of Gods Foreknowledge !

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Yup, unregenerate man loves his evil.
Thankfully when the Father draws man has a choice offered to him

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

And open the door -
This must be his own act, receiving power for this purpose from his offended Lord, who will not break open the door; he will make no forcible entry.
-Adam Clarke

And open the door -
As one would when a stranger or friend stood and knocked. The meaning here is simply, if anyone will admit me; that is, receive me as a friend. The act of receiving him is as voluntary on our part as it is when we rise and open the door to one who knocks.
-Albert Barnes

and open the door;
or show a readiness for the coming of Christ, look and wait for it, and be like such that will receive him with a welcome:
-John Gill

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

 

[savedbygrace57]

foc says:

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.

Its not absurd, since the writer says of them, clearly making a distinction of the we..those who draw back, had no choice first of all, because they were created vessels of wrath fitted for destruction..

the word perdition is the greek word:

ap?leia:


destroying, utter destruction

a) of vessels

2) a perishing, ruin, destruction

a) of money

b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

The same word is used in rom 9 22 to describe the vessels of wrath here:

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

or fitted for perdition..

The writer in hebrews is saying that some of them, along with himself, were not of them, of them that are vessels of wrath..

So the vessels of wrath, who may initially profess to be true believers, they will eventually foresake the word in times of persecution and draw back..apostacize..

Jesus calls them stony ground hearers Matt 13:

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

They are not able to suffer for the word of God [so they draw back], but true believers, it is given to them both to believe and suffer for Christ phil 1:


29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

The writer is saying, we are not of them who are for perdition, but of them who believe and suffer for righteousness sake..

 

[savedbygrace57]

foc says:

Thankfully when the Father draws man has a choice offered to him

what scripture says that ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

foc asked:

Im sorry but DID God just randomly HATE Esau,

Yes..He was hated before He did any evil..rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Thats the whole point in paul making this statement.. :o

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

foc says:

Thankfully when the Father draws man has a choice offered to him

what scripture says that ?

What a joke, S...again READ the thread.
Are you calling Jesus a liar by saying that man CAN come to Him without the Father drawing the man ????
;)

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

foc asked:

Im sorry but DID God just randomly HATE Esau,

Yes..He was hated before He did any evil..rom 9:

And uh...was Esau ABLE to DO any evil BEFORE Esau was born ? ;)
And did God KNOW before Esau was born that Esau would be what Esau was ? ;)

You have yet to make any point that common sense cannot refute, S. ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

foc says:

Thankfully when the Father draws man has a choice offered to him

what scripture says that ?

The CHOICE man is given when God 'knocks'....

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

And open the door -
This must be his own act, receiving power for this purpose from his offended Lord, who will not break open the door; he will make no forcible entry.
-Adam Clarke

And open the door -
As one would when a stranger or friend stood and knocked. The meaning here is simply, if anyone will admit me; that is, receive me as a friend. The act of receiving him is as voluntary on our part as it is when we rise and open the door to one who knocks.
-Albert Barnes

and open the door;
or show a readiness for the coming of Christ, look and wait for it, and be like such that will receive him with a welcome:
-John Gill

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

 

[toddm]

First of all, the idea that God sends people to hell who genuinely want to come to Him is preposterous and unbiblical. No one would seek God without God first seeking him.

FOC, you insist on using "foreknowledge" to render "foreseen". A couple of implications come out of this Scripturally.

1) Does God only foresee those who will accept Him? This is obviously a rhetorical statement and not intended to be an attack on your theology.

2) If God foresees everyone, then where is the distinction made in Romans 8:29-30? The text does not allow a reading of "God foresaw everyone and then predestined everyone", otherwise everyone predestined would be glorified (which teaches the unbiblical idea of universalism). So, the implication here is - does God only foresee some future acts (ie, the future acts of those He predestines but not the others)? Because you see, if you insist on using "foreknowledge" as "foresight" then you have to now recognize that you're limiting God's omniscience.

3) You agree that one cannot follow Christ unless the Father draws him. But are you implying that God then draws everyone? Furthermore, if God does foresee who will accept Him, then why does He bother sending the Holy Spirit to merely offer something that He knows they will refuse? Does God do anything in vain or without purpose? It can't be for the reason of now having justifiable grounds to condemn them because they were condemned to begin with.

Another passage that hasn't been discussed yet, but I think is relevant to the idea of resistable or irresistable grace is Ezekiel 36:26-28 prophesying the coming New Covenant

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

What I see from this passage is no room at all for man to screw it up. God does everything. He gives the new heart, He gives the Spirit, He causes us to walk in obedience, we will be His people, He will be our God. Where in this passage is there any uncertainty from God? He doesn't say "I will give you my Spirit, and then you MIGHT walk in my statutes" or "I will change your heart and you MIGHT be my people". It's definitive and decreed, thus it WILL happen.

Also, to say that God is a puppet master and that we are mindless zombies is a gross misrepresentation of the doctrines of grace. What you seem to be saying is that the Holy Spirit is somehow not compelling enough..as if once you've truly tasted God's grace then we can say, "nah, I tried it and it wasn't for me." I am utterly convinced that the Power of the Holy Spirit is so powerful that once He shines His convicting light on our dead souls, there will be no reason to reject it - to deny this is to say that our will is stronger than God's.

Did Jesus come to OFFER salvation, or did he come TO SAVE?

What is the deciding factor in the choice to follow Jesus after one is drawn by the Father then? Is it the goodness of one's heart? You see the dilemma? If God merely offers us salvation, what is the deciding factor? If it's man, then you've added a "work" and grounds for boasting by saying "see, I made the right choice"

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

First of all, the idea that God sends people to hell who genuinely want to come to Him is preposterous and unbiblical.

Agreed.
So we know that EVERY man who WOULD come to Him WILL come to Him..and thus this entire topic was started for nothing.

No one would seek God without God first seeking him.

...yeah....we covered that one pretty extensively at this point

FOC, you insist on using "foreknowledge" to render "foreseen". A couple of implications come out of this Scripturally.

I think that the word used has been shown as meaning precisely what the Strongs shows it to mean....to foreknow or foresee.
I dont insist on anything that the scholars have not already shown as being factual and the scriptures confirmed.

1) Does God only foresee those who will accept Him? This is obviously a rhetorical statement and not intended to be an attack on your theology.

Uh...no....He knows who will and who wont...which is precisely why He then 'predestines' those who do to be conformed to the image of His Son

2) If God foresees everyone, then where is the distinction made in Romans 8:29-30?

Are you claiming that HE doesnt foresee both the good and the evil man does ?

The text does not allow a reading of "God foresaw everyone and then predestined everyone", otherwise everyone predestined would be glorified (which teaches the unbiblical idea of universalism). So, the implication here is - does God only foresee some future acts (ie, the future acts of those He predestines but not the others)? Because you see, if you insist on using "foreknowledge" as "foresight" then you have to now recognize that you're limiting God's omniscience.

Thats pretty funny because if anyone here ISNT limiting His omniscience its me
God foreknows ALL and knows who will reject Him and who will accept Him...and those whom accept Him are predesinted to be conformed to the image of His Son.

3) You agree that one cannot follow Christ unless the Father draws him. But are you implying that God then draws everyone?

Lets not add to my words, friend, as some of you do the scriptures ;)
I have made NO claim as to Gods drawing EVERY man for NONE of us can say if He does or not.
Men like Adolf Hitler may never have been drawn at any point in their lives.
Furthermore, Im not going to allow you or anyone here to draw me into irrelevant hypothesis that cannot be known by us.
We dont know if God DOES or DOESNT draw EVERY single man from the creation or not...and I wont get caught up in that irrelevance with you.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Another passage that hasn't been discussed yet,

There is a TON of scripture that hasnt yet been accounted for yet.
Including thousands of passages that show instruction that PROVE that man DOES have a will to make CHOICES.

but I think is relevant to the idea of resistable or irresistable grace is Ezekiel 36:26-28 prophesying the coming New Covenant

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Im sorry...where does that nullify other scriptures that show that man DOES have a choice once God draws him ?
Youre assuming this is FORCIBLY done, friend, and that is YOUR inserted idea.
God is speaking to those who WILL LISTEN...how does THAT figure into your thoughts about these passages ?

What I see from this passage is no room at all for man to screw it up.

And when we use ONE passage that DOESNT SAY what we claim it does we WILL end up seeing what we want to see
That passage, friend, is ONE of THOUSANDS
It does not represent the WHOLE scope of God truth

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

God does everything. He gives the new heart, He gives the Spirit, He causes us to walk in obedience, we will be His people, He will be our God. Where in this passage is there any uncertainty from God? He doesn't say "I will give you my Spirit, and then you MIGHT walk in my statutes" or "I will change your heart and you MIGHT be my people". It's definitive and decreed, thus it WILL happen.

Again, we are ASSUMING that this is FORCIBLY done by God and Im sorry but it ISNT.
How many Hebrews that this was said to STILL REJECTED their Messiah, friend ?
Did you miss something about His coming to His own and their receiving Him NOT ?

Also, to say that God is a puppet master and that we are mindless zombies is a gross misrepresentation of the doctrines of grace.

No, its pretty dead on.
It just isnt appealing to the ear of the proponents of these false doctrines

What you seem to be saying is that the Holy Spirit is somehow not compelling enough..as if once you've truly tasted God's grace then we can say, "nah, I tried it and it wasn't for me."

Sorry friend but it is the SCRIPTURES that show that man CAN reject salvation
Shall I REpost the passages again for you ?

I am utterly convinced that the Power of the Holy Spirit is so powerful that once He shines His convicting light on our dead souls, there will be no reason to reject it - to deny this is to say that our will is stronger than God's.

It doesnt matter what YOU are convinced of.
Satan seems to be convinced that he might actually be able to defeat the Lion of Judah....but we know that isnt going to happen.
Being convinced is irrelevant...what Gods word SAYS is all that IS relevant.

Did Jesus come to OFFER salvation, or did he come TO SAVE?

He came to save those who WANT to be saved.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

What is the deciding factor in the choice to follow Jesus after one is drawn by the Father then?

The deciding factor ?
You said it yourself just now...Choice. The Choice to either repent or rebel.
Not too hard to understand

If it's man, then you've added a "work" and grounds for boasting by saying "see, I made the right choice"

Oh please...use this nonsense line with someone who doesnt know better.
FAITH and REPENTANCE is REQUIRED.
If YOU call that a 'work' that is YOUR error, not ours
Apparenty you and a couple others here missed something critical...

and he brought them forth outside and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, you and your household."
(Acts 16:30-31 EMTV)

"What must I DO..."
Did you miss that somehow
Its not a 'work' friend...its simply a requirement of salvation.

.

 

[mondar]

After a person goes to heaven does he still have the free will to reject God?
---He must, otherwise without the ability of choose good or evil he would be a Zombie.

After a person goes to hell, what if he repents in hell, will got let them out of hell and send them to heaven?
---He must, otherwise God is an evil ogre.

Of course the above thinking is sarcasm, but it is consistent with FOCs misrepresentation of Biblical Theology.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

After a person goes to heaven does he still have the free will to reject God?

Oh boy...so here we go with the obscene and the absurd.
I dont know, friend...ask God when we get there
How long did it take for you to come up with this irrelevant nonsense ?

After a person goes to hell, what if he repents in hell, will got let them out of hell and send them to heaven?

Not sure what part of 'eternal' you are missing, but the choice is made HERE in THIS lifetime.
Youd know that IF you had cracked a bible open

Of course the above thinking is sarcasm, but it is consistent with FOCs misrepresentation of Biblical Theology.

Hardly.
All it does is show just how desperate you have become to push whatever it is you are pushing

The choice is made HERE in THIS life....when we get to the otherside we've already made it

Can we expect more of this 'chicken/egg' nonsense from you ?

 

[mondar]

After a person goes to heaven does he still have the free will to reject God?

Oh boy...so here we go with the obscene and the absurd.
I dont know, friend...ask God when we get there
How long did it take for you to come up with this irrelevant nonsense ?

After a person goes to hell, what if he repents in hell, will got let them out of hell and send them to heaven?

Not sure what part of 'eternal' you are missing, but the choice is made HERE in THIS lifetime.
Youd know that IF you had cracked a bible open
[quote:1oz7srg2]Of course the above thinking is sarcasm, but it is consistent with FOCs misrepresentation of Biblical Theology.

Hardly.
All it does is show just how desperate you have become to push whatever it is you are pushing

The choice is made HERE in THIS life....when we get to the otherside we've already made it

Can we expect more of this 'chicken/egg' nonsense from you ?

[/quote:1oz7srg2]
If I can ask, how old are you? My guess is that you should be out playing with your little friends somewhere. You fail to understand obvious argumentation from consistency. Surely you are some adolescent?

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

If I can ask, how old are you?
My guess is that you should be out playing with your little friends somewhere. You fail to understand obvious argumentation from consistency. Surely you are some adolescent?

Huh.
All one had to do was look at my profile...
My age is irrelevant friend...as is your assessment.
Either you CAN present a solid case or you CANT.
Apparently you CANT and you now need to distract with irrelevance and ad hominems..

 

[toddm]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Im sorry...where does that nullify other scriptures that show that man DOES have a choice once God draws him ?
Youre assuming this is FORCIBLY done, friend, and that is YOUR inserted idea.
God is speaking to those who WILL LISTEN...how does THAT figure into your thoughts about these passages ?

It doesn't nullify any Scripture...it bolsters it. Let me ask you this...WHO is listening? Can things of the flesh discern and understand the spiritual? How can someone even have the choice to listen to God when there is none righteous, none who seek God, none who does good (Rom. 3:10-12)? Let me ask you this..how do you think God draws someone?

And when we use ONE passage that DOESNT SAY what we claim it does we WILL end up seeing what we want to see
That passage, friend, is ONE of THOUSANDS
It does not represent the WHOLE scope of God truth

Seems to me that road goes both ways. ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

It doesn't nullify any Scripture...it bolsters it.

When you try to force something INTO a verse that it DOESNT actually SAY to nullify scriptures that DO say precisely what they do, that is basically trying to manipulate the texts to make them what you want them to be.

Let me ask you this...

Is this going to be yet another question that if you dont agree with the provided answer that youre going to dismiss it ?

WHO is listening? Can things of the flesh discern and understand the spiritual?
How can someone even have the choice to listen to God when there is none righteous, none who seek God, none who does good (Rom. 3:10-12)? Let me ask you this..how do you think God draws someone?

yup...it was :eyebrow

How is the spirit in a man awakened to his Creator ?
Ask God,ToddM

As for myself I will stop playing the game of asking questions that may or may not have clear answers given in scripture and ask ones that DO.
Such as 'does man have a CHOICE to reject God and salvation'
THAT question can be answered VERY plainly from scripture.
The others I'll leave to you to ask

Seems to me that road goes both ways. ;)

Hardly.
Only by DENYING the overwhelming proof that man DOES have a choice and DOES have to REACT (what some here falsely call 'works') to Gods drawing do we miss the WHOLE truth from His word.

Are we done here folks ?
This has nowhere else to go. None of you have actually PROVEN your case and all we keep seeing are these questions without answers that I figure are simply your way of trying to get around the scriptural FACTS...ie a waste of our time here

.

 

[toddm]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

I think that the word used has been shown as meaning precisely what the Strongs shows it to mean....to foreknow or foresee.
I dont insist on anything that the scholars have not already shown as being factual and the scriptures confirmed.

So there are no scholars that affirm my, sbg, and mondar's view? Are all 3 of us just a bunch of "Johnny-come-lately's" on the scene w/ this "heresy"?

Uh...no....He knows who will and who wont...which is precisely why He then 'predestines' those who do to be conformed to the image of His Son

But the text doesn't say that, my friend. It doesn't say "those whom He foreknew would choose Him, he also predestined..." It seems as if you may be guilty of inserting your ideas now in to the text.

Are you claiming that HE doesnt foresee both the good and the evil man does ?

Of course not. I fully affirm God's omniscience. But you have somehow made a distinction that Rom. 8:29 is only foreseeing those who choose Him.

God foreknows ALL and knows who will reject Him and who will accept Him...and those whom accept Him are predesinted to be conformed to the image of His Son.

That's great, but where does it say that in Rom. 8:29-30? Where does it say "God foreknew those who would accept Him"? You simply can't dismiss this passage and fall back on an argument of the entire scope of Scripture because this passage is within that scope.

Lets not add to my words, friend, as some of you do the scriptures ;)

Hey, I'm not the one saying that the text says "God foreknew those who would accept Him" Which last I checked is adding to the Scripture. ;)

Let's look at John 6 again. Do you take vs. 37 to not be definitive? Meaning, where it says that all the Father gives me WILL (definitely) come to me. Because if you don't interpret that as definitive, then how do you handle the next "will" later on in that verse..."whoever comes to me I WILL never cast him out." Is the first "will" not definite, but the second is?? I don't see the context making an allowance for such interpretation. They are either both definite or both not definite.

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

So there are no scholars that affirm my, sbg, and mondar's view? Are all 3 of us just a bunch of "Johnny-come-lately's" on the scene w/ this "heresy"?

I think if you actually READ what I posted, todd, it was about the WORD and its definition ;)

But the text doesn't say that, my friend. It doesn't say "those whom He foreknew would choose Him, he also predestined..." It seems as if you may be guilty of inserting your ideas now in to the text.

Uh...yeah..it says that those whom He FOREKNEW He ALSO DID predestinate....TWO steps compared to your one, apparently ;)
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Romans 8:29 KJV)


I guess we may as well order pizza because its clear that we're all going to be here all night REPEATING the same material 100 more times


.

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Of course not. I fully affirm God's omniscience. But you have somehow made a distinction that Rom. 8:29 is only foreseeing those who choose Him.

That may be, Todd, because *I* am not stuck in ONE verse that I can make say what I want it to say as some here are .
Romans 8:29 is ONE piece of evidence in a HUGE collection of data.

That's great, but where does it say that in Rom. 8:29-30? Where does it say "God foreknew those who would accept Him"? You simply can't dismiss this passage and fall back on an argument of the entire scope of Scripture because this passage is within that scope.

Ah, I see....now for the same semantics game that the OP had to start playing.
If intellectual dishonesty is all we have to offer here, why even bother... ?
Ever hear of a thing I like to call 'evidence' ?
You know, its what they use in a courtroom to BUILD A CASE
No ONE piece of evidence will generally tell the WHOLE story...thats why they typically offer MANY piece of evidence to show the WHOLE picture.

What Romans 29 shows us is that it IS a TWO step process....those who God FOREKNEW He ALSO did PREDESTINATE.
We werent cranked out on an assembly line with 'heaven' or hell stamped on our foreheads, Im afraid.
CHOICE to come to God when He draws is the POINT of creation.
Its sad that those of your doctrine miss out on the blessing of that knowledge....that God wanted a being who could CHOOSE to love Him on its own.
Being a drone forced to love someone must be a horrid existence....

.