The Calling of the 144,000

[Benoni]

The hidden manna is being fed to the manchild/overcomer/as we speak.

I believe that, just a God protected and fed Israel in the wilderness, God is going to protect and feed the 144,000 at a designated place-of-safety.

Rev 12: 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And the hidden manna is what God is going to feed those that overcome.

Revelation 2:17
17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[azlan88]

I have Biblical evidence that the rapture is real right here:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

-1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

The term, "rapture" comes from the Latin word, "raptus", which is found in in place of the words, "caught up" in this passage. To this day, we call this phenominom "the rapture."

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by azlan88
I have Biblical evidence that the rapture is real right here:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

-1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

You are distorting Paul's words to mean, "after that [the rapture], we who are still alive and are left [behind] will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air [later on at the Second Coming]. . . ."

This is not the meaning of Paul's words. Paul is stating: "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."

This simply states the living will not precede the dead to Heaven; period. That's all it is talking about; not some secret "other coming" of Christ. The two groups meet the Lord at the same time. The Bible refers to individuals who are alive at the coming of the Lord in the sense that "we" [the living] who are alive when the Lord appears will unite with the dead to meet Jesus in the air. This fact is quite different from being "left behind after a rapture."

Haven't you read 2 Thessalonians chapter two?

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

That is the subject, Jesus Christ's return, and Paul is going to tell us the how and when we gather back to Him.

2:2 that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be wishy washy about this subject. This is exactly how it's going down.

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,

We ARE NOT going to gather back to Christ until AFTER the man of sin is revealed, NOT BEFORE. No pre-tribulation rapture, get it?

2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Pay attention

 

[Vic C.]

Correct Os, Paul is reassuring them that the harpazo (gathering) is a two consecutive events; first the dead in Christ, then immediately after that, those who are alive. This occurs just before the Coming of Christ, as 2 Thessalonians 2:1 suggests. No need to twist scripture or interject words that don't belong. :yes

 

[Sinthesis]

Correct Os, Paul is reassuring them that the harpazo (gathering) is a two consecutive events; first the dead in Christ, then immediately after that, those who are alive. This occurs just before the Coming of Christ, as 2 Thessalonians 2:1 suggests. No need to twist scripture or interject words that don't belong. :yes

How do you get 'then immediately' as opposed to just 'then' i.e. thereupon, thereafter, then, afterwards?

 

[Vic C.]

Because Paul doesn't appear to be putting in any timespace there or in 1 Cor 15:52.

 

[Sinthesis]

Because Paul doesn't appear to be putting in any timespace there or in 1 Cor 15:52.

I see 1Th 4:13-18 as only establishing the order; the dead caught up first, and then the living caught up later.

1Cr 15:52 refers to those still alive being changed immediately, not being caught up immediately. In fact the living are changed in the exact same moment as the dead are raised.

 

[Vic C.]

Because Paul doesn't appear to be putting in any timespace there or in 1 Cor 15:52.

I see 1Th 4:13-18 as only establishing the order; the dead caught up first, and then the living caught up later.

1Cr 15:52 refers to those still alive being changed immediately, not being caught up immediately. In fact the living are changed in the exact same moment as the dead are raised.

Well... I don't 'see' the harpazo in quite the same way as most anyway. I still believe there's no support for there being any real delay between the two events. Show me there is and I'll reconsider. :yes

 

[Sinthesis]

[quote="Vic C.":241q88dz]Because Paul doesn't appear to be putting in any timespace there or in 1 Cor 15:52.

I see 1Th 4:13-18 as only establishing the order; the dead caught up first, and then the living caught up later.

1Cr 15:52 refers to those still alive being changed immediately, not being caught up immediately. In fact the living are changed in the exact same moment as the dead are raised.

Well... I don't 'see' the harpazo in quite the same way as most anyway. I still believe there's no support for there being any real delay between the two events. Show me there is and I'll reconsider. :yes[/quote:241q88dz]
I don't want to start some sort of partial preterist pogrom, but I just don't see 'changed' for those still living as meaning the same thing as 'caught up'. Those who are already sleeping are 'caught up' at the same instant as those still living are 'changed'. The 'changed' are then 'caught up' as they eventually fall asleep.

 

[Vic C.]

So, you are saying the dead are resurrected into their incorruptible bodies and are "caught up", but the living are changed but aren't "caught up" until they die, then they too are resurrected? Ok. :D

 

[Sinthesis]

So, you are saying the dead are resurrected into their incorruptible bodies and are "caught up", but the living are changed but aren't "caught up" until they die, then they too are resurrected? Ok. :D

No, this was circa Rosh Hashanah 70AD. Since then I suspect once a Christian's body dies they are immediately in the Lord's presence. No Christians you have ever personally known are 'asleep' waiting to be resurrected. As for our glorified bodies of the new creation?...I don't know exactly when we get those, but I suppose it is after Christ physically returns and brings this creation to an end.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Sinthesis
"No Christians you have ever personally known are 'asleep' waiting to be resurrected. As for our glorified bodies of the new creation?...I don't know exactly when we get those, but I suppose it is after Christ physically returns and brings this creation to an end"

I've spent a lot of time researching the idea of soul sleep, and I must say; the jury is still out on that one for me. Verses such as 2 Corinthians 5:7,8 seem to support being conscious when the body dies. But there is Daniel 12:2:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

It is argued that those "that sleep in the dust of the earth" are literally sleeping until the time when they are awoken (resurrected), so they must be in a state of soul-sleep. However, one could also interpret the word 'sleep' as a euphemism for 'death'.

Also, in Revelation 6:9-1, there are martyrs under the altar in heaven that are crying out to God asking Him how long He will wait to avenge them. How were they existing apart from a body and before the resurrection? There was also Moses appearing with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8; Mark 9:2-10). The 'body' of Moses was buried by God, so what the three apostles saw was not the 'body' of Moses, but his spirit. If the concept of soul-sleep is to be taken to the extreme; Moses should have been asleep (yes - I understand there were special circumstances in this particular case :D).

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) represents the dead as being conscious. Of course it is a "parable", however, parables are not fables; they are metaphorical descriptions of actual truths.

My conclusion: The Bible is not specific on the condition of the person between death and the resurrection; and the Scripture spends little time describing the afterlife. I am more likely to embrace the idea that believers who have departed to be with the Lord are conscious and are truly experiencing His presence (even though they have not yet experienced the resurrection). But like I said, the jury is still out (at least until my body is picking turnips with a step ladder). For now, I'll try to keep my mind where it should be -- on the here and now. ;)

 

[Benoni]

Explain to me how Christ is going to phyically return?

So, you are saying the dead are resurrected into their incorruptible bodies and are "caught up", but the living are changed but aren't "caught up" until they die, then they too are resurrected? Ok. :D

No, this was circa Rosh Hashanah 70AD. Since then I suspect once a Christian's body dies they are immediately in the Lord's presence. No Christians you have ever personally known are 'asleep' waiting to be resurrected. As for our glorified bodies of the new creation?...I don't know exactly when we get those, but I suppose it is after Christ physically returns and brings this creation to an end.

 

[Benoni]

I mean physically? If every eye will see Him?

Take the tallest mountain; how far away can the human eye see this mountain?

I was at sea and saw Mt Rainier fifty miles out at sea; it may have been 100 miles from my viewing point and it was 14,000 feet high. So if Jesus is going been seen by all physically how tall will he be?

Plus not only is this mountain almost 3 miles high it is at least five miles wide.

Sorry physical is out of the question.

So how high will Jesus need to be phyically 100 miles high, 1000 miles high? Then you have the phyical curve of the earth which would block his view in most cases. God is a spirit. Stop trying to bring him down to our flesh/carnal understanding.

Explain to me how Christ is going to phyically return?

So, you are saying the dead are resurrected into their incorruptible bodies and are "caught up", but the living are changed but aren't "caught up" until they die, then they too are resurrected? Ok. :D

No, this was circa Rosh Hashanah 70AD. Since then I suspect once a Christian's body dies they are immediately in the Lord's presence. No Christians you have ever personally known are 'asleep' waiting to be resurrected. As for our glorified bodies of the new creation?...I don't know exactly when we get those, but I suppose it is after Christ physically returns and brings this creation to an end.

 

[Sinthesis]

I mean physically? If every eye will see Him?

Why are you assigning these two attributes to one event?

 

[whirlwind]

I mean physically? If every eye will see Him?

Take the tallest mountain; how far away can the human eye see this mountain?

• Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Hm. Even so, Amen.

You could read that verse as......every eye shall UNDERSTAND Him. To see is not just to see with the physical eye but to understand by seeing with your spiritual eyes, as in, "oh, I see what you mean."

 

[Benoni]

You could read that verse as......every eye shall UNDERSTAND Him. To see is not just to see with the physical eye but to understand by seeing with your spiritual eyes, as in, "oh, I see what you mean."[/b]

Were on th e same sheet of music...

See; NT:3700

optanomai (op-tan'-om-ahee); a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai (op'-tom-ahee); which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of NT:3708; to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from NT:991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from NT:1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while NT:2300, and still more emphatically its intensive NT:2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and NT:4648 a watching from a distance):


The word see: Greek:

NT:3708 horao (hor-ah'-o); properly, to stare at [compare NT:3700], i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear:

NT:2334 theoreo (theh-o-reh'-o); from a derivative of NT:2300 (perhaps by add. of NT:3708); to be a spectator of, i.e. discern, (literally, figuratively [experience] or intensively [acknowledge]):

NT:2300 theaomai (theh-ah'-om-ahee); a prolonged form of a primary verb; to look closely at, i.e. (by implication) perceive (literally or figuratively); by extension to visit:

 

[Benoni]

• Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Hm. Even so, Amen.

Comes with CloudS

Some people get bent all out of shape when we tell them that Jesus is not returning riding upon a rain cloud. Let me assure you - the prophecies of the Bible are to be believed! But let us be careful that we do not make them mean something which God did not intend. The mistake that many make is to say that all those prophecies are to be fulfilled in a very physical and natural sense, when the New Testament interpretations indicate that the prophecies do indeed have a literal fulfillment but with a spiritual interpretation. We need to understand that much of the language of the Bible is couched in symbolism, metaphors and allegories. The beauty of things is sometimes enhanced by the descriptive language that God uses, such as when He describes the church, the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:21-33), as a "great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Rev. 21:1-2,9-10). God's use of earthly language to describe His holy Zion in these two chapters of Revelation 21 and 22 is absolutely fantastic and marvelous. I doubt that John could have ever thought up this picture by himself!
I am reminded of the little girl who picked up a book on the vegetable kingdom. She read in the book that cabbages have heads. She asked her father, "Do cabbages have heads like we have?" He told her, "No." Then she said, "Well, the man that wrote the book wrote a lie!" "No," her father replied, "the man didn't lie." "But if he did not write a lie," she persisted, "then cabbages must have heads like ours!" Patiently her fattier explained, "No, honey. He is talking about another form of life, and that life form has a head, but it is a different kind of head from ours. Therefore he wrote the truth, but you put the wrong interpretation on it. The man who wrote that knew what he was talking about, but you, not understanding the things he spoke of, suppose that a cabbage has a head like a man's. But that does not make it so. The man was and is right, but your interpretation of what he wrote is wrong." Now, that is how the carnal mind reads the Bible. It understands spiritual realities in terms of fleshly or worldly things. All who interpret the scriptures with the natural mind are just as mistaken in their conclusions as was the little girl who looked for a cabbage possessing a human head complete with eyes, ears, nose and mouth and adorned with hair! The natural mind looks for Jesus to come on a fleecy-white rain cloud, but the spiritual mind sees that lie comes in the shekinah clouds of glory radiating from the glorious living temple of His body.

Another proof that the "clouds" with which Christ comes are in reality the sons of God IN THEIR GLORY is couched in the terminology of the scriptures on this subject. Note that in most places the passages in question speak of Christ coming "WITH CLOUDS." There is only one other group or plurality of objects of which it is stated that Christ comes "with" them, and that is - the SAINTS! The Bible never says that Jesus returns "to" the clouds or "out of" the clouds. It is very careful to tell us that lie comes "with" clouds. And it also tells us that tie comes "with" His saints. "To the end He may establish your hearts ... at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ W-I-T-H ALL HIS SAINTS" (I Thes. 3:13). Jude says, "And Enoch also ... prophesied ... saying, Behold, the Lord cometh W-I-T-H TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS" (Jude 14). The Amplified is helpful, when it reads, "Behold,the Lord comes W-I-T-H MYRIADS OF HOLY ONES - ten thousands of His saints." But the Interlineary reading from the Diaglott translation gives the clearest of all renderings from the Greek text, so we note, "Lo, comes Lord I-N HOLY MYRIADS OF
HIMSELF." "Myriads of HIMSELF." All of them partakers of His divine nature, conformed to His image, filled with His life. Myriads of Himself, of His own kind, born of His seed, a many brethren company of SONS - all His sons. And again we read the testimony: "And the Lord my God shall come, and ALL, THE SAINTS W-T-T-H_T-H-E-E" (Zech. 14:5). The beloved John sees this same scene in wonder-filled vision and speaking in prophetical language writes: "Behold, He cometh W-I-T-H CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).

Rom. 8:17 contains a marvelous truth. "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also GLORIFIED TOGETHER." To be GLORIFIED TOGETHER is the hope that springs perennial within the breast of all who have by the spirit beheld HIS GLORY. This wonderful experience of being GLORIFIED TOGETHER is a reference of our union with Christ as members of His body, and speaks of a time to come when this entire company of the sons of God, IN UNION WITH CHRIST THE HEAD, shall be GLORIFIED TOGETHER - IMMERSED INTO THE LIFE OF CHRIST, sharing with Him in the fullness of His glory. This entire company shall be joined to Christ to share with Him in the blessed glorification experience when we shall partake of HIS GLORY, bcing fully transformed into the body of His likeness. Verse eighteen of Romans eight refers to that glory as "The glory which shall be revealed IN US." Therefore, it is a glory which is yet to be revealed IN US, that is, in these bodies we shall experience that great glory of Christ when we shall be clothed upon with our heavenly house so that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

We are plainly taught that when Christ who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear WITH HIM in glory (Col. 3:4). He can do nothing without us. We are His body. Oh, marvelous thought! Christ has bound us to Himself with ties so strong (no man would sprak of his own hand as being near or far, his hand is part of himself; no man would undertake anything without a full participation on the part of every member of his body in that event), Christ has bound us, I repeat, so eternally and utterly to Himself that we MUST figure in His movements. Of course we shall appear with Him! It could not be otherwise - we are His body. Each elect member of His body has been so grafted into the trunk of the eternal Godhead, so incorporated in His life that He and His body are one. Oh, the unutterable glory of this union with Christ! To what an ineffable destiny it commits us. We no longer concern ourselves about whether or not we shall "go to heaven." The truth of the matter is, we would rather not go, if Christ were not there. Ah, He IS heaven! The faintest glimmer of light from His holy countenance beside which the sun is but a shadow, suffices the heart. Paul could not have done otherwise than sing there in prison when at midnight with Silas, he rejoiced. His back was bleeding with the stripes; it was midnight; he was in prison. But he sings as a participant of Christ; heaven's ineffable light bursts in about him, the glory of the Lord is upon him, and the Lord manifests Himself in this cloud!

We are to participate in Christ's coming. We are moving toward the most stupendous transactions in the history of the human race. Nothing can befall Him that does not befall us. We are yet to participate in a fuller measure in the fruits of redemption. We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. With Him we shall reign. The stream of life, which proceedeth from the throne, and from the Lamb and which breaks in upon us, so that even NOW "rivers of living water" flow from our innermost being, is going to just overflow all its banks in this day, so that death will be literally SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. Oh, that God may give us a heart to make due preparation for the participation in the yet unfulfilled history of Christ. For as we have been made to partake of the death of the Federal Head of the new race, and in Him were resurrected and made to sit in the heavenlies, so, in that sublime event toward which the church moves, the coming of Christ with clouds, we too, shall participate. Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift!

 

[Sinthesis]

• Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Hm. Even so, Amen.

Comes with CloudS

Some people get bent all out of shape...for His unspeakable gift!

Yes, but see I'm not taking about Rev 1:7, which I believe deals with the parousia. This was fulfilled in 70AD as God broke the staff of the law and sacrificial temple system revealing to all with eyes and willing to 'see' that Jesus was in fact the Jewish Messiah.

This was not his physical return as prophesied in Acts 1:9-11.

I must ask a Mormon if 'Comes with Clouds' is Jesus' Native American name.

 

[Benoni]

no this was not fulfilled in 70 AD. There are many comings of the Lord.

• Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Hm. Even so, Amen.

Comes with CloudS

Some people get bent all out of shape...for His unspeakable gift!

Yes, but see I'm not taking about Rev 1:7, which I believe deals with the parousia. This was fulfilled in 70AD as God broke the staff of the law and sacrificial temple system revealing to all with eyes and willing to 'see' that Jesus was in fact the Jewish Messiah.

This was not his physical return as prophesied in Acts 1:9-11.

I must ask a Mormon if 'Comes with Clouds' is Jesus' Native American name.