The Calling of the 144,000

[guysmith]

Revelation 14
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[guysmith]

Christ compared the end to "as the days of Noah." In Noah's time is was a flood of water, in the end it will be a flood of persecution from the AC.

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Noah was the survivor back in the days. The 144,000 will be preserved from the future flood of persecution.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Noah was provided with (instructions to build) the ark. Mount Zion in Jerusalem has been provided as the future ark to ride out the waters known as the persecution of the AC.

Joel 2: 32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Guy

 

[JudaicChristian]

The 144000 are not christian but Jews as confirmed in Revelation 12000 from each tribe. Apart from that what Guy writes is more or less correct. The Day of the Lord is the Day when YHWH comes against the Nations. That 3 1/2 year period has begun. The woman in Revelation 14 being the bride who is protected in the wilderness until Messiah's return. The prophet Zechariah confirms it is the YHWH Elohim of Hosts who wages the battle against the nations. That time is here.

Since the days of Moses the gentiles became a part of any tribe they chose.

 

[guysmith]

Isaiah 10:20
[ The Remnant of Israel ] In that day the remnant of Israel, the survivors of the house of Jacob, will no longer rely on him who struck them down but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel.

 

[veteran]

Christ compared the end to "as the days of Noah." In Noah's time is was a flood of water, in the end it will be a flood of persecution from the AC.

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Noah was the survivor back in the days. The 144,000 will be preserved from the future flood of persecution.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Noah was provided with (instructions to build) the ark. Mount Zion in Jerusalem has been provided as the future ark to ride out the waters known as the persecution of the AC.

Joel 2: 32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Guy

You mean the believing Gentiles shown in Rev.7:9 forward too, right? Those that came out of great tribulation and washed their robes in Christ's Blood.

I believe the 144,000 are only about the elect of Israel, the "remnant" of Romans 11:1-5 which God has preserved to Himself, the remnant election according to grace. But I also believe those of Rev.7:9 forward is about the Gentiles that are saved with them, and are an undetermined number.

It's good to see that you've recognized the woman fleeing into the wilderness of Rev.12 as a metaphor and not as a physical escape like Pre-Trib rapture folks are wrongly taught to think.

 

[guysmith]

Hello veteran,

I am not in the pre-trib camp. And yes, I do believe that the flood in Rev12 is a metaphor. However, I do believe that this parable (Rev12) is providing end time Christians with instructions on how to physically survive the coming metaphorical flood, just as God provided Noah with instructions so that he and his family could physically survive the flood.

This is not a discussion concerning salvation. Salvation only comes by accepting Christ's sacrifice. Whether you have died in Christ, or are alive in Him at His advent, it does not matter. However, there will be Christians alive at Christ's advent. God, just as He provided survival instructions to Noah, has provide survival instructions for those who He calls.

Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Your option is determining whether you want to accept His calling or not.

Guy

 

[lecoop]

Christ compared the end to "as the days of Noah." In Noah's time is was a flood of water, in the end it will be a flood of persecution from the AC.

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Noah was the survivor back in the days. The 144,000 will be preserved from the future flood of persecution.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Noah was provided with (instructions to build) the ark. Mount Zion in Jerusalem has been provided as the future ark to ride out the waters known as the persecution of the AC.

Joel 2: 32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Guy

You mean the believing Gentiles shown in Rev.7:9 forward too, right? Those that came out of great tribulation and washed their robes in Christ's Blood.

I believe the 144,000 are only about the elect of Israel, the "remnant" of Romans 11:1-5 which God has preserved to Himself, the remnant election according to grace. But I also believe those of Rev.7:9 forward is about the Gentiles that are saved with them, and are an undetermined number.

It's good to see that you've recognized the woman fleeing into the wilderness of Rev.12 as a metaphor and not as a physical escape like Pre-Trib rapture folks are wrongly taught to think.

I guess Jesus talked in Metaphors too:

Mat 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If one is up on the roof, maybe doing some repairs, MUST NOT go back into the house! Some may think Jesus is saying having children is wrong. And taking a trip in the winter is a no no! one can read anything into these verses, and I am sure they have. My best friend came to my wedding and some silly woman would not let him in, because he was not wearing a suit. How stupid can some people be concerning scriptures?

But, the truth is, these verses are meant to be taken literally, and when those in Judea see the abomination, they must flee quickly, or die. There are no metaphors here.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Hello veteran,

I am not in the pre-trib camp. And yes, I do believe that the flood in Rev12 is a metaphor. However, I do believe that this parable (Rev12) is providing end time Christians with instructions on how to physically survive the coming metaphorical flood, just as God provided Noah with instructions so that he and his family could physically survive the flood.

This is not a discussion concerning salvation. Salvation only comes by accepting Christ's sacrifice. Whether you have died in Christ, or are alive in Him at His advent, it does not matter. However, there will be Christians alive at Christ's advent. God, just as He provided survival instructions to Noah, has provide survival instructions for those who He calls.

Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Your option is determining whether you want to accept His calling or not.

Guy

Except....do we read it this way?

Matthew 24
16Then let them which be in North America flee into the mountains:


no no, that is not what it says!!

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This is a specific instruction for those living in Judea. For those that are born again, and living in other parts of the world, IF they see the abomination on TV, it should be a sign for them too, and perhaps many of them will flee into the wildernesses here in North America. But Jesus' instructions are specifically for those living in Judea.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Hello veteran,

I am not in the pre-trib camp. And yes, I do believe that the flood in Rev12 is a metaphor. However, I do believe that this parable (Rev12) is providing end time Christians with instructions on how to physically survive the coming metaphorical flood, just as God provided Noah with instructions so that he and his family could physically survive the flood.

This is not a discussion concerning salvation. Salvation only comes by accepting Christ's sacrifice. Whether you have died in Christ, or are alive in Him at His advent, it does not matter. However, there will be Christians alive at Christ's advent. God, just as He provided survival instructions to Noah, has provide survival instructions for those who He calls.

Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Your option is determining whether you want to accept His calling or not.

Guy

Yes, I'm with you on that. The events of the woman there is metaphorical for the reason you say, to show that main attack by the serpent in the end of days is primarily one of spiritual deception. The protection of Noah's ark was from a literal physical 'flood'. But the flood out of the serpen't mouth in the last days is about deception, since it comes out of his mouth. That points to spiritual protection upon the woman to escape the coming "hour of temptation", and has nothing to do with a literal physical escaping.

That flood example out of the serpents mouth is linked with the events of Rev.9 about the smoke, fire, and brimstone by the locust army, which ALSO comes out of their mouths as written. That points to words, lies, deceptive teachings, for what? To trick folks into accepting the first one coming to work great wonders and miracles on earth that the whole world will worship in place of Christ.

The protection of the woman going into the wilderness is about God's sealing of His servants per Rev.7 and 9 (and per Ezek.9). It does not mean being removed off the earth, nor having to go hide somewhere. There won't be any place on earth to physically hide when false messiah does setup false worship. It's not about hiding in some far away country or literal forest or desert. On the contrary, because we are to make a stand for Christ in that time, and be prepared to give His Testimony. Can't do that if we're trying to hide.

In Rev.9, our Lord showed the time of stinging upon those NOT sealed with God's seal will last for "five months." Even that links back to the time of the literal flood of Noah's days, because Noah's ark was literally upon the height of the flood waters for a period of 5 months (150 days=five months per God's calendar). So that's yet another literal event from Noah's time our Lord used as a spiritual metaphor in Revelation to show the tribulation coming will primarily be about spiritual deception, a fight over one's soul, and not over our flesh bodies.

 

[veteran]

Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Your option is determining whether you want to accept His calling or not.

Guy

You do realize that idea of deliverance in Jerusalem is timed with Christ's return and the gathering of His saints don't you? It's that same timing of Zech.14 when His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives, and a great earthquake happens in Jerusalem to cleave the mount in two, forming a great valley there running from east to west. That's when, and where those of us who remain in Christ will flee to at His coming. That's the timing of Rev.14 when the 144,000 are seen standing on Mount Sion (Zion) with Christ.

 

[guysmith]

Hello veteran,

You stated: You do realize that idea of deliverance in Jerusalem is timed with Christ's return and the gathering of His saints don't you?

My response: Yes.

You stated: It's that same timing of Zech.14 when His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives, and a great earthquake happens in Jerusalem to cleave the mount in two, forming a great valley there running from east to west. That's when, and where those of us who remain in Christ will flee to at His coming. That's the timing of Rev.14 when the 144,000 are seen standing on Mount Sion (Zion) with Christ.

My response: The timing is correct. However, there is some details which need to be addressed.

1. The 144k (in Rev 14) are standing with Christ and it can safely be said that they have received immortal bodies as described by Paul's description of the resurrection.

2. Those on Mount Zion in Jerusalem (described in Zechariah 14:1-5) hadn't received immortal bodies yet (even though it is the day of the LORD). If they had, they would not be in need of "flee" instructions provided by Zechariah. This indicates that those survivors arrived at Mount Zion on their own accord, prior to the day of the LORD.

Now, I have a question for you. When do you think the 144K arrive at Mount Zion? Remember, they can't have been raptured there, because if they were, they would have immortal bodies and would not need to "flee" as instructed in Zechariah 14. And, they had to travel to Mount Zion (and survive for the 1260 days of the GT) without receiving the "mark of the beast."

Guy

 

[veteran]

2. Those on Mount Zion in Jerusalem (described in Zechariah 14:1-5) hadn't received immortal bodies yet (even though it is the day of the LORD). If they had, they would not be in need of "flee" instructions provided by Zechariah. This indicates that those survivors arrived at Mount Zion on their own accord, prior to the day of the LORD.

I understand no.1, but I don't follow you on the last part of the above. I agree in Rev.14 the 144,000 are already standing on Mount Zion with Christ, which is showing a future time after the gathering by Christ is complete, and the rewards have been handed out.

I don't see us fleeing to Jerusalem prior to Christ's coming to gather us. His feet MUST first touch down on the Mount of Olives to form that great valley mentioned in Zech.14:4. Then it's to that great valley we flee to per the Scripture (Zech.14:5). The sudden destruction by Christ's feet touching down is first, then our gathering to Him through that great valley. That's the event order given there.

Shilohsfoal is right on our Lord's command for us to NOT be in Jerusalem just prior to His coming for the sudden destruction...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Now, I have a question for you. When do you think the 144K arrive at Mount Zion? Remember, they can't have been raptured there, because if they were, they would have immortal bodies and would not need to "flee" as instructed in Zechariah 14. And, they had to travel to Mount Zion (and survive for the 1260 days of the GT) without receiving the "mark of the beast."
Guy

Those gathered by Christ are shown to flee to that great valley formed by Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives at His coming. That is the so-called 'rapture', so yes, those who remain in Christ to the end most definitely will be changed to bodies of incorruption in order to do that. That means an attempt to go to Jerusalem prior to Christ's coming is to disobey His command in Luke 21 to stay away... from that area until His coming. The idea of fleeing in Zech.14:5 is TO that valley of the mountains Christ will form there, not away from it.

Maybe you're not understanding what that "valley of the mountains" means, for it is to reach unto "Azal", a place still unknown today that has yet to be formed there.

 

[guysmith]

Hello veteran,

First of all I would like to state that shilo is wrong,

You stated: Those gathered by Christ are shown to flee to that great valley formed by Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives at His coming

My response: So, what you are saying is that hundreds of million, possibly billions of Christians, which are resurrected (with immortal bodies and are like the angels of God) and raptured to Mount Zion where the AC armies are sieging Jerusalem. Then, half of these billions of resurrected saints with immortal bodies like the angels of God will be raped,

Zechariah 14: 2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

And as I understand you, the other half (of these billions of resurrected saints with immortal bodies like the angels of God) will have to flee for there immortal lives in this earthquake created by Christ at His advent.

Veteran, I am not trying to win an argument. However, I don't think you have thought this through. Do you really think that that these individuals would need "flee" instructions from the armies of the AC, if they had immortal bodies like the angels of God?

Guy

 

[lecoop]

2. Those on Mount Zion in Jerusalem (described in Zechariah 14:1-5) hadn't received immortal bodies yet (even though it is the day of the LORD). If they had, they would not be in need of "flee" instructions provided by Zechariah. This indicates that those survivors arrived at Mount Zion on their own accord, prior to the day of the LORD.

I understand no.1, but I don't follow you on the last part of the above. I agree in Rev.14 the 144,000 are already standing on Mount Zion with Christ, which is showing a future time after the gathering by Christ is complete, and the rewards have been handed out.

I don't see us fleeing to Jerusalem prior to Christ's coming to gather us. His feet MUST first touch down on the Mount of Olives to form that great valley mentioned in Zech.14:4. Then it's to that great valley we flee to per the Scripture (Zech.14:5). The sudden destruction by Christ's feet touching down is first, then our gathering to Him through that great valley. That's the event order given there.

Shilohsfoal is right on our Lord's command for us to NOT be in Jerusalem just prior to His coming for the sudden destruction...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Now, I have a question for you. When do you think the 144K arrive at Mount Zion? Remember, they can't have been raptured there, because if they were, they would have immortal bodies and would not need to "flee" as instructed in Zechariah 14. And, they had to travel to Mount Zion (and survive for the 1260 days of the GT) without receiving the "mark of the beast."
Guy

Those gathered by Christ are shown to flee to that great valley formed by Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives at His coming. That is the so-called 'rapture', so yes, those who remain in Christ to the end most definitely will be changed to bodies of incorruption in order to do that. That means an attempt to go to Jerusalem prior to Christ's coming is to disobey His command in Luke 21 to stay away... from that area until His coming. The idea of fleeing in Zech.14:5 is TO that valley of the mountains Christ will form there, not away from it.

Maybe you're not understanding what that "valley of the mountains" means, for it is to reach unto "Azal", a place still unknown today that has yet to be formed there.

Veteran, I remain astounded that you can read a verse and come up with a totally different idea that I do. What did John call these 144,000?

Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

They are FIRSTFRUITS. John is tellling us that these are a very SELECT group, that will be raptured at the midpoint of the week, and firstfruits of the JEWS. (Hebrews.) In chapter 14, they are IN HEAVEN before the throne, fulfilling the world, "firstfruits." I say they are raptured, for that seems the most logical way they arrived in heaven. There is not one hint that they were martryed. Neither is there any hint that this is a preview of some future event: it seems rather that these were raptured right near the midpoint of the week. Perhaps they go up when the two witnesses show up, just before the midpoint.

Neither are there any instructions anywhere for the church to move to Israel. For the readers, this is what happens when one comes up with one wrong doctrine; like dominos, everything else must be warped to fit. The truth is, we, the church, are in heaven at this time, as shown by John in chapter 7. Then, we are already IN HEAVEN for the wedding and wedding supper, as shown by John in Chapter 19. Then, we do indeed come back WITH HIM in chapter 19.

Coop

 

[guysmith]

The only Christians that will be alive, at the sounding of the fifth trumpet, are those with the seal of God on their foreheads (the 144K). If there were any other Christians alive at that time, then they too would be affected by this plague.

Revelation 9
1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

This is really quite simple. The Bible contains survival instructions for a relatively small group of Christians to be alive at Christ's advent. The Bible numbers this small group as the 144,000. It's that simple.

Now, if you have this desire to be alive at Christ's advent, to see His glorious return, then you need to rethink your position. If you do not want to see His glorious return, then just keep on doing what your doing.


This is the calling of the 144,000.

Guy

 

[veteran]

Hello veteran,

First of all I would like to state that shilo is wrong,

He's not wrong on our Lord's command to stay away from Jerusalem just prior to His coming there. It's because our Lord is coming there to flatten that area first, forming that great valley of Zech.14:4.

You stated: Those gathered by Christ are shown to flee to that great valley formed by Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives at His coming

My response: So, what you are saying is that hundreds of million, possibly billions of Christians, which are resurrected (with immortal bodies and are like the angels of God) and raptured to Mount Zion where the AC armies are sieging Jerusalem. Then, half of these billions of resurrected saints with immortal bodies like the angels of God will be raped,

What your saying has nothing to do with what I'm talking about brother.

What timing are the Zechariah 14:1-3 verses, prior, during, or after Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives?

Surely you understand we don't gather to Christ until His feet touch down upon that Mount of Olives? That's what our fleeing TO that great valley is about. That valley is formed first. God also called that valley "the valley of decision" and "the valley of Jehoshaphat" in Joel 3. It's linked with His cup of wrath poured upon Satan's host, that great army that Christ and His angels battle there. It's the Armageddon battle, the "supper of the great God" per Rev.19.

And right after Christ defeats Satan's host army there, we will flee in our resurrection bodies to that great valley where Jesus will be. His coming, their defeat and destruction, and the saints still on earth being changed, also the unjust being changed, and the dead raised, and our gathering there, all will occur very quickly beginning on the 7th trump. Isaiah 29 says it will happen at an instant suddenly. That's the "sudden destruction" Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5 that will come upon the deceived and wicked. Per Isaiah 25, that's when the vail between this earthly and the heavenly will be removed, pointing to both the resurrection of the just and the unjust at that same time (John 5:29).

Zech.14:5 says that valley of the mountains will reach unto Azal. Azal is a figurative location and means 'proximity: he has reserved' (Strong's no. 682). I believe it's about God's Heavenly Cube that stretches from that area on earth up into the Heavenly, the dimensions of the Holy City given in Revelation.

 

[lecoop]

The only Christians that will be alive, at the sounding of the fifth trumpet, are those with the seal of God on their foreheads (the 144K). If there were any other Christians alive at that time, then they too would be affected by this plague.

Revelation 9
1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

This is really quite simple. The Bible contains survival instructions for a relatively small group of Christians to be alive at Christ's advent. The Bible numbers this small group as the 144,000. It's that simple.

Now, if you have this desire to be alive at Christ's advent, to see His glorious return, then you need to rethink your position. If you do not want to see His glorious return, then just keep on doing what your doing.


This is the calling of the 144,000.

Guy

Why do you think God went to the trouble to say that there were 12000 from EACH TRIBE? These are JEWS (Hebrews, descendants of Jacob) NOT the church, Not gentiles, ONLY JEWS. (More domino's fall.)

Of course many will die during the first five trumpets. But these 144,000 Jews will have supernatural protection.

Of course the 5th trumpet will NOT kill everyone that does not have the seal. You do read your own scriptures you post? They LONG for death, but cannot find it. NO ONE dies of this plague.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Hello veteran,

First of all I would like to state that shilo is wrong,

He's not wrong on our Lord's command to stay away from Jerusalem just prior to His coming there. It's because our Lord is coming there to flatten that area first, forming that great valley of Zech.14:4.

You stated: Those gathered by Christ are shown to flee to that great valley formed by Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives at His coming

My response: So, what you are saying is that hundreds of million, possibly billions of Christians, which are resurrected (with immortal bodies and are like the angels of God) and raptured to Mount Zion where the AC armies are sieging Jerusalem. Then, half of these billions of resurrected saints with immortal bodies like the angels of God will be raped,

What your saying has nothing to do with what I'm talking about brother.

What timing are the Zechariah 14:1-3 verses, prior, during, or after Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives?

Surely you understand we don't gather to Christ until His feet touch down upon that Mount of Olives? That's what our fleeing TO that great valley is about. That valley is formed first. God also called that valley "the valley of decision" and "the valley of Jehoshaphat" in Joel 3. It's linked with His cup of wrath poured upon Satan's host, that great army that Christ and His angels battle there. It's the Armageddon battle, the "supper of the great God" per Rev.19.

And right after Christ defeats Satan's host army there, we will flee in our resurrection bodies to that great valley where Jesus will be. His coming, their defeat and destruction, and the saints still on earth being changed, also the unjust being changed, and the dead raised, and our gathering there, all will occur very quickly beginning on the 7th trump. Isaiah 29 says it will happen at an instant suddenly. That's the "sudden destruction" Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5 that will come upon the deceived and wicked. Per Isaiah 25, that's when the vail between this earthly and the heavenly will be removed, pointing to both the resurrection of the just and the unjust at that same time (John 5:29).

Zech.14:5 says that valley of the mountains will reach unto Azal. Azal is a figurative location and means 'proximity: he has reserved' (Strong's no. 682). I believe it's about God's Heavenly Cube that stretches from that area on earth up into the Heavenly, the dimensions of the Holy City given in Revelation.

Veteran, please show us scriptures that put the CHURCH there at that place and time?

Coop

 

[veteran]

The only Christians that will be alive, at the sounding of the fifth trumpet, are those with the seal of God on their foreheads (the 144K). If there were any other Christians alive at that time, then they too would be affected by this plague.

Revelation 9
1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

This is really quite simple. The Bible contains survival instructions for a relatively small group of Christians to be alive at Christ's advent. The Bible numbers this small group as the 144,000. It's that simple.

Now, if you have this desire to be alive at Christ's advent, to see His glorious return, then you need to rethink your position. If you do not want to see His glorious return, then just keep on doing what your doing.


This is the calling of the 144,000.

Guy

Not quite true, because we cannot omit the undetermined number in Rev.7:9 forward which John is told came out of great tribulation and washed their robes, made them white in the Blood of The Lamb. Those are shown before God's Throne TOO, just like the 144,000 are shown with Christ upon Zion later in Rev.14. I strongly believe that group of Rev.7:9 forward represents the Gentiles that will ALSO give a witness for Christ during the tribulation like 144,000 do. The rapture or resurrection doesn't happen until Christ comes to END the tribulation He spoke of. He showed events in Matt.24 how the gathering of His saints is after... that tribulation, not during it, nor prior to it.

In Matt.25, our Lord Jesus explained that at His coming, His angels are going to gather all nations before His Throne in judgment, and then He will separate His sheep from the goats. There are too many on this Forum denying that event, for it is hard Scripture evidence that aligns with what our Lord said in John 5 about both the resurrection of the just AND the unjust happening at the same time of the sound of His voice. No one will be in bodies of corruption like we have today after His coming, including the unjust (wicked). Isaiah 25 is a major Bible witness to that.

This is why Zechariah 14 is showing that the nations that are left after Christ's coming will be required to go up to Jerusalem from year to year and hold the feast of tabernacles, and to worship The KING (our Lord Jesus Christ). And it shows some nations will be slack in that. Zech.14 also gives a quick hint to the River of the waters of life being established in Jerusalem at that time, and God's House being set there. Christ's Salvation is going to be a very REAL event established upon this earth when He returns. It's when some of the manifesting of the future glory will begin upon this earth He created to be inhabited.

 

[lecoop]

The only Christians that will be alive, at the sounding of the fifth trumpet, are those with the seal of God on their foreheads (the 144K). If there were any other Christians alive at that time, then they too would be affected by this plague.

Revelation 9
1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

This is really quite simple. The Bible contains survival instructions for a relatively small group of Christians to be alive at Christ's advent. The Bible numbers this small group as the 144,000. It's that simple.

Now, if you have this desire to be alive at Christ's advent, to see His glorious return, then you need to rethink your position. If you do not want to see His glorious return, then just keep on doing what your doing.


This is the calling of the 144,000.

Guy

Not quite true, because we cannot omit the undetermined number in Rev.7:9 forward which John is told came out of great tribulation and washed their robes, made them white in the Blood of The Lamb. Those are shown before God's Throne TOO, just like the 144,000 are shown with Christ upon Zion later in Rev.14. I strongly believe that group of Rev.7:9 forward represents the Gentiles that will ALSO give a witness for Christ during the tribulation like 144,000 do. The rapture or resurrection doesn't happen until Christ comes to END the tribulation He spoke of. He showed events in Matt.24 how the gathering of His saints is after... that tribulation, not during it, nor prior to it.

In Matt.25, our Lord Jesus explained that at His coming, His angels are going to gather all nations before His Throne in judgment, and then He will separate His sheep from the goats. There are too many on this Forum denying that event, for it is hard Scripture evidence that aligns with what our Lord said in John 5 about both the resurrection of the just AND the unjust happening at the same time of the sound of His voice. No one will be in bodies of corruption like we have today after His coming, including the unjust (wicked). Isaiah 25 is a major Bible witness to that.

This is why Zechariah 14 is showing that the nations that are left after Christ's coming will be required to go up to Jerusalem from year to year and hold the feast of tabernacles, and to worship The KING (our Lord Jesus Christ). And it shows some nations will be slack in that. Zech.14 also gives a quick hint to the River of the waters of life being established in Jerusalem at that time, and God's House being set there. Christ's Salvation is going to be a very REAL event established upon this earth when He returns. It's when some of the manifesting of the future glory will begin upon this earth He created to be inhabited.

Amazing how you form your doctrine on three verses in John, when Revelation covers the same events in hundreds of verses. It is always wiser to form doctrine on the most complete revelation. John shows us very clearly that the unsaved dead are resurrected, but LATER than the first resurrection - at a different time. They are NOT resurrection on the same 24 hour day as the righteous dead.

Coop