The Chair of Peter

[Mungo]

The chair of Peter represents his teaching authority. When the Pope speaks ex-cathedra (from the chair) it means he is speaking authoritatively about something that is to be held by the whole Church. This goes with the keys (see Peter and The Keys).

To understand this we need to go back to Exodus 18:13 where Moses sat in judgement over the whole people. He sat from morning until evening and was becoming worn out. His father-in-law, Jethro, enquired about this of him. Moses answered his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God; when they have a dispute, they come to me and I decide between a man and his neighbor, and I make them know the statutes of God and his decisions.” (Ex 18:15-16). Jethro said this was unwise and advised Moses to appoint people to judge lesser cases and Moses should “teach them the statutes and the decisions, and make them know the way in which they must walk and what they must do.” (vs 20) and Moses should just judge the more difficult cases. Thus Moses delivered God’s “statutes and the decisions”, the way in which they must walk and what they must do”.

The teachers of Israel continued to teach with authority “the way in which they must walk and what they must do”. This is why Jesus said about them “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you,” (Mt 23:2-3). Note that Jesus is not saying they sat in a literal chair of Moses. He is speaking figuratively.

 

[WIP]

The chair of Peter represents his teaching authority. When the Pope speaks ex-cathedra (from the chair) it means he is speaking authoritatively about something that is to be held by the whole Church. This goes with the keys (see Peter and The Keys).

To understand this we need to go back to Exodus 18:13 where Moses sat in judgement over the whole people. He sat from morning until evening and was becoming worn out. His father-in-law, Jethro, enquired about this of him. Moses answered his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God; when they have a dispute, they come to me and I decide between a man and his neighbor, and I make them know the statutes of God and his decisions.” (Ex 18:15-16). Jethro said this was unwise and advised Moses to appoint people to judge lesser cases and Moses should “teach them the statutes and the decisions, and make them know the way in which they must walk and what they must do.” (vs 20) and Moses should just judge the more difficult cases. Thus Moses delivered God’s “statutes and the decisions”, the way in which they must walk and what they must do”.

The teachers of Israel continued to teach with authority “the way in which they must walk and what they must do”. This is why Jesus said about them “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you,” (Mt 23:2-3). Note that Jesus is not saying they sat in a literal chair of Moses. He is speaking figuratively.

So is it Catholic belief that the current Pope is controlled by God Himself and therefore he is infallible?

 

[Walpole]

So is it Catholic belief that the current Pope is controlled by God Himself and therefore he is infallible?

Your question is based on a false premise. The pope is not controlled by anyone no more than you are controlled by anyone.

Your question also demonstrates a false understanding of what is meant by infallibility. For your question likens infallibility to a faucet, whereby God turns it on and through the pope truth starts pouring out. That is NOT what Catholics believe.

The reality is that infallibility is a negative gift, not a positive one. (That's a philosophical distinction.) The word itself comes from two Latin words meaning "not to be mistaken." It is thus not a faucet, but rather more like a levy. It prevents the river of truth from overflowing and turning into a swamp. This difference between a river and a swamp is a swamp has no banks. When the Church declares something infallibly, she is stating with certainty what is or is not the faith of the Church.

For if there is no organ, body or mechanism who can define and declare what is or is not the Christian faith, then Christianity becomes an entirely subjective religion. Each individual would therefore become his own determiner (and actual creator) of truth. He would thus decides what is or is not the Christian faith for himself. This, of course, is contrary to the religion of the Logos, which is a religion of revelation; whereby man discovers truth and conforms his will to it.

 

[Niblo]

Your question is based on a false premise. The pope is not controlled by anyone no more than you are controlled by anyone.

Your question also demonstrates a false understanding of what is meant by infallibility. For your question likens infallibility to a faucet, whereby God turns it on and through the pope truth starts pouring out. That is NOT what Catholics believe.

The reality is that infallibility is a negative gift, not a positive one. (That's a philosophical distinction.) The word itself comes from two Latin words meaning "not to be mistaken." It is thus not a faucet, but rather more like a levy. It prevents the river of truth from overflowing and turning into a swamp. This difference between a river and a swamp is a swamp has no banks. When the Church declares something infallibly, she is stating with certainty what is or is not the faith of the Church.

For if there is no organ, body or mechanism who can define and declare what is or is not the Christian faith, then Christianity becomes an entirely subjective religion. Each individual would therefore become his own determiner (and actual creator) of truth. He would thus decides what is or is not the Christian faith for himself. This, of course, is contrary to the religion of the Logos, which is a religion of revelation; whereby man discovers truth and conforms his will to it.

Very well said.

 

[Walpole]

Very well said.

I wish I could take credit, but everything I post originates in the thought of St. Thomas, Chesterton and Sheen.

"There is nothing new under the sun."

 

[Niblo]

I wish I could take credit, but everything I post originates in the thought of St. Thomas, Chesterton and Sheen.

"There is nothing new under the sun."

'When the student is ready, the master appears.' (Buddhist Proverb).

You are a credit to your teachers.

 

[andy pandy]

When the Pope speaks ex-cathedra (from the chair) it means he is speaking authoritatively about something that is to be held by the whole Church

Except that it is only the catholic church that does what he says, not the whole church.

 

[GodsGrace]

I wish I could take credit, but everything I post originates in the thought of St. Thomas, Chesterton and Sheen.

"There is nothing new under the sun."

You've retained practically everything you have studied or read. The credit goes to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Except that it is only the catholic church that does what he says, not the whole church.

There used to be only one church.
Then two.
Now, after the reformation, we have thousands.

 

[jaybo]

The chair of Peter represents his teaching authority. When the Pope speaks ex-cathedra (from the chair) it means he is speaking authoritatively about something that is to be held by the whole Church. This goes with the keys (see Peter and The Keys).

To understand this we need to go back to Exodus 18:13 where Moses sat in judgement over the whole people. He sat from morning until evening and was becoming worn out. His father-in-law, Jethro, enquired about this of him. Moses answered his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God; when they have a dispute, they come to me and I decide between a man and his neighbor, and I make them know the statutes of God and his decisions.” (Ex 18:15-16). Jethro said this was unwise and advised Moses to appoint people to judge lesser cases and Moses should “teach them the statutes and the decisions, and make them know the way in which they must walk and what they must do.” (vs 20) and Moses should just judge the more difficult cases. Thus Moses delivered God’s “statutes and the decisions”, the way in which they must walk and what they must do”.

The teachers of Israel continued to teach with authority “the way in which they must walk and what they must do”. This is why Jesus said about them “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you,” (Mt 23:2-3). Note that Jesus is not saying they sat in a literal chair of Moses. He is speaking figuratively.

So the Pope is the apostle to the Jews only?

Galatians 2:7-8, " On the contrary, when they saw that I was entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised just as Peter was entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who empowered Peter for his apostleship to the circumcised also empowered me for my apostleship to the Gentiles)"

 

[GodsGrace]

Your question is based on a false premise. The pope is not controlled by anyone no more than you are controlled by anyone.

Your question also demonstrates a false understanding of what is meant by infallibility. For your question likens infallibility to a faucet, whereby God turns it on and through the pope truth starts pouring out. That is NOT what Catholics believe.

The reality is that infallibility is a negative gift, not a positive one. (That's a philosophical distinction.) The word itself comes from two Latin words meaning "not to be mistaken." It is thus not a faucet, but rather more like a levy. It prevents the river of truth from overflowing and turning into a swamp. This difference between a river and a swamp is a swamp has no banks. When the Church declares something infallibly, she is stating with certainty what is or is not the faith of the Church.

For if there is no organ, body or mechanism who can define and declare what is or is not the Christian faith, then Christianity becomes an entirely subjective religion. Each individual would therefore become his own determiner (and actual creator) of truth. He would thus decides what is or is not the Christian faith for himself. This, of course, is contrary to the religion of the Logos, which is a religion of revelation; whereby man discovers truth and conforms his will to it.

Today we discover our own personal truths and adhere to them.

And so, the result is that there is no truth.

I cannot consider myself a catholic, and can no longer agree with protestantism.

The priests I know accept me even though they know I'm "a little protestant".

 

[jaybo]

There used to be only one church.
Then two.
Now, after the reformation, we have thousands.

Except that is clearly not what the Bible says. There were different churches throughout the Mediterranean region with different doctrines (prompting Paul to write his epistles). Also, the beginning of Revelation describes a number of different churches, each with their own strengths and (real) weaknesses.

So saying that there used to be only one church is fiction. There have always been multiple churches from the earliest NT days.

 

[jaybo]

Today we discover our own personal truths and adhere to them.

And so, the result is that there is no truth.

I cannot consider myself a catholic, and can no longer agree with protestantism.

The priests I know accept me even though they know I'm "a little protestant".

So what do you consider yourself?

BTW, there most definitely is truth: Jesus Christ. John 14:6, "Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

 

[GodsGrace]

So the Pope is the apostle to the Jews only?

Galatians 2:7-8, " On the contrary, when they saw that I was entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised just as Peter was entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who empowered Peter for his apostleship to the circumcised also empowered me for my apostleship to the Gentiles)"

Jaybo
Peter was the Bishop of Rome.
I do believe gentiles lived there.
Catch up on your history.
Please.

 

[GodsGrace]

So what do you consider yourself?

BTW, there most definitely is truth: Jesus Christ. John 14:6, "Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

So tell me...
What is truth:
OSAS or not?
Does God predestined the saved or not?
Must new sin be forgiven or not?
Etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

So what do you consider yourself?

BTW, there most definitely is truth: Jesus Christ. John 14:6, "Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

A Christian.
At the foot of the cross.

Of course Jesus is the truth.
That's why I follow Him when in doubt.

 

[GodsGrace]

Except that is clearly not what the Bible says. There were different churches throughout the Mediterranean region with different doctrines (prompting Paul to write his epistles). Also, the beginning of Revelation describes a number of different churches, each with their own strengths and (real) weaknesses.

So saying that there used to be only one church is fiction. There have always been multiple churches from the earliest NT days.

The different doctrines were heretical.
The church was necessary to keep heretical doctrine out of the church.

Were it not for the original and Catholic church, we might not be here today.

 

[jaybo]

Jaybo
Peter was the Bishop of Rome.
I do believe gentiles lived there.
Catch up on your history.
Please.

Where does it say in the Bible that Peter was the Bishop of Rome? I believe the Bible, not external sources. Catch up on your Bible reading, please.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where does it say in the Bible that Peter was the Bishop of Rome? I believe the Bible, not external sources. Catch up on your Bible reading, please.

Did the world stop when John died?

 

[Walpole]

This idea that Peter was precluded from taking the Gospel to the gentiles is easily disproven from Scripture. Here is St. Peter speaking at the Council of Jerusalem. He could not be any more explicit.

Acts 15:6-11: The apostles and the elders met together to consider this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "My brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that I should be the one through whom THE GENTILES would hear the message of the good news and become believers. And God, who knows the human heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us; and in cleansing their hearts by faith he has made no distinction between them and us. Now therefore why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”


Here is another example, this time from none other than St. Paul, when he had to confront St. Peter for his hypocrisy...

Gal 2:14: But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, "If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"

Who was St. Peter preaching the Gospel to?

The Gentiles!