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The Chair of Peter

Walpole said:
Your question is based on a false premise. The pope is not controlled by anyone no more than you are controlled by anyone.

Your question also demonstrates a false understanding of what is meant by infallibility. For your question likens infallibility to a faucet, whereby God turns it on and through the pope truth starts pouring out. That is NOT what Catholics believe.

The reality is that infallibility is a negative gift, not a positive one. (That's a philosophical distinction.) The word itself comes from two Latin words meaning "not to be mistaken." It is thus not a faucet, but rather more like a levy. It prevents the river of truth from overflowing and turning into a swamp. This difference between a river and a swamp is a swamp has no banks. When the Church declares something infallibly, she is stating with certainty what is or is not the faith of the Church.

For if there is no organ, body or mechanism who can define and declare what is or is not the Christian faith, then Christianity becomes an entirely subjective religion. Each individual would therefore become his own determiner (and actual creator) of truth. He would thus decides what is or is not the Christian faith for himself. This, of course, is contrary to the religion of the Logos, which is a religion of revelation; whereby man discovers truth and conforms his will to it.
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I think you have misunderstood or misconstrued my question. I was not basing it on any premise. Let me try to rephrase. Is it the belief of the Catholic church that the Pope is infallible? In other words, if the Pope makes a declaration, is it to be followed without question by all members of the Catholic church? Is he basically a king or like a king?
 
wondering said:
There used to be only one church.
Then two.
Now, after the reformation, we have thousands.
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Debatable. The true church which the catholic church isn't part of is one. They may call themselves different things but there is only one truth church commonly known as "His Church"
 
WIP said:
I think you have misunderstood or misconstrued my question. I was not basing it on any premise. Let me try to rephrase. Is it the belief of the Catholic church that the Pope is infallible? In other words, if the Pope makes a declaration, is it to be followed without question by all members of the Catholic church? Is he basically a king or like a king?
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In the thread Question about Infallibility I posted this:

The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus gifted a share in his infallibility to his Church. Therefore what the Church solemnly teaches, concerning faith or morals is true.

In doing this the Church draws on what God has taught either that which has been committed to writing (Scriptures) or passed on orally (Tradition).
I won't go into the evidence for this now because I'm explaining what the Catholic Church teaches.

The Church teaches that "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals." (CCC 891).

Such an infallible declaration is very rare. In the last 200 years there have only been two such declarations, one in 1854 (the Immaculate Conception) and 1950 (Assumption of Mary).

Such declarations are only made after consulting the Bishops throughout the world. It's not, as I once heard Richard Dawkins claim, "The Pope wakes up one day and over breakfast decides to infallibly declare a new doctrine which Catholics must believe" ( or words to that effect).

Addition to original post:
So the Pope can, under specific circumstances, exercise the gift of infallibility that Christ gave to his Church.

The Catechism says this concerning this gift of infallibility:
In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith." (para 889)
 
jaybo said:
Yes, the world stopped when John died. For some unknown reason, it slowed down then finally stopped and every living thing flew off and became stars.
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No comment.
You should, however, study some church history, as I've been asking you to do for some time now.
Or, you could remain ignorant of the facts.
Facts.
 
wondering said:
No comment.
You should, however, study some church history, as I've been asking you to do for some time now.
Or, you could remain ignorant of the facts.
Facts.
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I use my available free time reading God's word -- the Bible -- as I believe it and it alone is the source of God's truth. I know enough about church history to know that it is filled with horrendous behavior, including the murder of innocent people who wouldn't subject themselves to its dogma.

Peter was an impulsive, violent man whom Jesus called "Satan" and Paul cited for his hypocrisy. Why would I want to know more about him?
 
WIP said:
I think you have misunderstood or misconstrued my question. I was not basing it on any premise. Let me try to rephrase. Is it the belief of the Catholic church that the Pope is infallible?
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Yes, as explained in my previous post. Infallibility is not to be confused and conflated with inspiration.

WIP said:
In other words, if the Pope makes a declaration, is it to be followed without question by all members of the Catholic church? Is he basically a king or like a king?
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It depends. The Pope's word is not infallible whenever he speaks, such as voicing his opinion.

However, by virtue of the authority of his office as successor to Peter, when he speaks as supreme head of the Church in questions of faith or morals, and with the intention of binding all the faithful, then yes. He is not a king, but in the Church, he is the final court of appeal so to speak.
 
Walpole said:
Yes, as explained in my previous post. Infallibility is not to be confused and conflated with inspiration.


It depends. The Pope's word is not infallible whenever he speaks, such as voicing his opinion.

However, by virtue of the authority of his office as successor to Peter, when he speaks as supreme head of the Church in questions of faith or morals, and with the intention of binding all the faithful, then yes. He is not a king, but in the Church, he is the final court of appeal so to speak.
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What if the Pope makes a declaration that is not necessarily Scripturally based? How is that handled, particularly in recognition and respect of his position in the church?
 
jaybo said:
I use my available free time reading God's word -- the Bible -- as I believe it and it alone is the source of God's truth. I know enough about church history to know that it is filled with horrendous behavior, including the murder of innocent people who wouldn't subject themselves to its dogma.

Peter was an impulsive, violent man whom Jesus called "Satan" and Paul cited for his hypocrisy. Why would I want to know more about him?
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Well if you don't want to know any more about Peter then there is no point in your being in this thread.
 
Walpole said:
Your question is based on a false premise. The pope is not controlled by anyone no more than you are controlled by anyone.

Your question also demonstrates a false understanding of what is meant by infallibility. For your question likens infallibility to a faucet, whereby God turns it on and through the pope truth starts pouring out. That is NOT what Catholics believe.

The reality is that infallibility is a negative gift, not a positive one. (That's a philosophical distinction.) The word itself comes from two Latin words meaning "not to be mistaken." It is thus not a faucet, but rather more like a levy. It prevents the river of truth from overflowing and turning into a swamp. This difference between a river and a swamp is a swamp has no banks. When the Church declares something infallibly, she is stating with certainty what is or is not the faith of the Church.

For if there is no organ, body or mechanism who can define and declare what is or is not the Christian faith, then Christianity becomes an entirely subjective religion. Each individual would therefore become his own determiner (and actual creator) of truth. He would thus decides what is or is not the Christian faith for himself. This, of course, is contrary to the religion of the Logos, which is a religion of revelation; whereby man discovers truth and conforms his will to it.
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Does the Pope ever lie?
 
Mungo said:
Well if you don't want to know any more about Peter then there is no point in your being in this thread.
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I am interested in Peter as he is described in the Bible. I don't know what you mean by knowing more about him. I certainly am not interested in Catholic mythology, but am interested in the truth.
 
jaybo said:
I am interested in Peter as he is described in the Bible. I don't know what you mean by knowing more about him. I certainly am not interested in Catholic mythology, but am interested in the truth.
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And do you think your personal opinions are truth?
 
jaybo said:
I use my available free time reading God's word -- the Bible -- as I believe it and it alone is the source of God's truth. I know enough about church history to know that it is filled with horrendous behavior, including the murder of innocent people who wouldn't subject themselves to its dogma.

Peter was an impulsive, violent man whom Jesus called "Satan" and Paul cited for his hypocrisy. Why would I want to know more about him?
Click to expand...
I really have nothing further to say.
When the student is ready,
The teacher will appear.
Lao Tsu
 
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