The Character of the Cross Work of Christ

[glorydaz]

Righteousness does not come by the Law, but Christ was made sin for us so that we may be made righteousness in Him. THAT'S why Jesus could say, 'except your righteousness EXCEED that of the scribes and pharisees, you shall IN NO CASE enter into the Kingdom of Heaven'. We are, as believers, free to obey, because we are dead to the flesh and no longer serve sin, but are alive in the Spirit and free to serve righteousness SO that the righteousness of God, apart from the LAW, can be made mainfest in us...this IS THE CROSS WORK OF CHRIST and the Spirit of Life in us. We, who are in Christ, are not establishing our own righteousness through the LAW by doing faith works, but we are manifesting God's righteousness in the Spirit by doing good works in Christ....Good works 'in Christ' which GOD has prepared for us to walk in.

:yes :amen

 

[glorydaz]

Salvation isn't a medal that can be bought, so NO it is not cheapened when we give the glory to God instead of to ourselves when we obtain it. When we believe and are born of the Spirit, we are new creatures...we have been given a new heart. The Spirit within confirms our adoption as sons with our spirit and we can have perfect confidence and peace...total assurance that we have been saved by the grace of God, and not by our own efforts to please God. Salvation is a gift from God...so that none can boast in any way.

You use the term miracles quite loosely. God works in the lives of believers, but miracles are never done by man. We do see the power of God because we are IN CHRIST. We see His work through us and we give all the glory to Him. I've heard no one claim man is the "awarder of righteousness". The Gospel I speak of is THE GOSPEL. It not only works, it is the power of salvation. I'm not denying it's power, and I certainly don't give man any of the glory that belongs to God alone.

The power to declare ourselves righteous? The power to claim we will never fail the Lord? The Christian life is as a race. There is a beginning and an end. Our race isn't finished yet. We don't get to judge our own hearts as you do. To declare yourself eternally righteous because of a moment's decision is beyond ridiculous. It is both arrogant and presumptuous. You simply cannot let God be the justifier in your life. This is a scandal to you. This is out of your own hands so you don't like it. You prefer a slick assurance salesman's evangelical sounding pitch to trusting the living God in a living hope...not declaring yourself eternally justified and glorified in a smug assurance. A hypnotized person doesn't realize they've been hypnotized. A deceived person thinks they are seeing reality.

You make accusations even a child would know are made of straw. I've never once said we judge our own hearts. I've never even implied anything close to what you claim. When you say "arrogant and presumptuous", I can see you speak from practical experience. LOL.

You might just want to admit you're not waiting on the Lord to give you the correct words to use here, because what you've asserted thus far is pure bologna. I'd explain again, but I really don't think it would do any good. In the mean time, you might want to refrain from the flame...it's so unproductive.

 

[Adullam]

Righteousness does not come by the Law, but Christ was made sin for us so that we may be made righteousness in Him. THAT'S why Jesus could say, 'except your righteousness EXCEED that of the scribes and pharisees, you shall IN NO CASE enter into the Kingdom of Heaven'. We are, as believers, free to obey, because we are dead to the flesh and no longer serve sin, but are alive in the Spirit and free to serve righteousness SO that the righteousness of God, apart from the LAW, can be made mainfest in us...this IS THE CROSS WORK OF CHRIST and the Spirit of Life in us. We, who are in Christ, are not establishing our own righteousness through the LAW by doing faith works, but we are manifesting God's righteousness in the Spirit by doing good works in Christ....Good works 'in Christ' which GOD has prepared for us to walk in.

Amen! exactly!

 

[Drew]

Yes, you claim your own work of obedience is what ultimately saves you.

False. Untrue.

I follow Paul. And what does Paul say:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Did I write these words? No I did not. Paul wrote them.

Your characterization of my position is a deeply cynical distortion of the view that I have clearly expressed over and over.

Yes, if we do not allow the Spirit to do its work, we will indeed be lost. I am sorry you do not accept this, but this is what Paul actaully wrote (see above) Your distortion of what I have posted denies that overwhelming role of the Spirit - you focus on one small part (our willingness to let the Spirit work) and imply that I think the believer can claim "credit" for their salvation. This is like saying that someone can take credit for life-saving surgery just because they consented to undergo and operation.

A deeply cynical, and clearly intentional twisting of the truth on your part.

 

[Dave...]

Righteousness does not come by the Law, but Christ was made sin for us so that we may be made righteousness in Him. THAT'S why Jesus could say, 'except your righteousness EXCEED that of the scribes and pharisees, you shall IN NO CASE enter into the Kingdom of Heaven'. We are, as believers, free to obey, because we are dead to the flesh and no longer serve sin, but are alive in the Spirit and free to serve righteousness SO that the righteousness of God, apart from the LAW, can be made mainfest in us...this IS THE CROSS WORK OF CHRIST and the Spirit of Life in us. We, who are in Christ, are not establishing our own righteousness through the LAW by doing faith works, but we are manifesting God's righteousness in the Spirit by doing good works in Christ....Good works 'in Christ' which GOD has prepared for us to walk in.

Hey T.

What some here are claiming is that the fruit of the Spirit is the righteousness of God that justifies. In other words, there are some here who claim that Jesus simply made it possible for us to save ourselves. The fruit of the Spirit is the manifestation of one who is already in Christ, and thus justified, but they claim that it is that manifestation in us that justifies us.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

It is ever the Holy Spirit's work to turn our eyes away from self to Jesus; but Satan's work is just the opposite of this, for he is constantly trying to make us regard ourselves instead of Christ. He insinuates, "Your sins are too great for pardon; you have no faith; you do not repent enough; you will never be able to continue to the end; you have not the joy of his children; you have such a wavering hold of Jesus." All these are thoughts about self, and we shall never find comfort or assurance by looking within. But the Holy Spirit turns our eyes entirely away from self: he tells us we are nothing, but that "Christ is All in All." Remember, therefore, it is not your hold of Christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not your joy in Christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not even faith in Christ, thought that be the instrument--it is Christ's blood and merits; therefore, look not so much to your hand with which you art grasping Christ, as to Christ; look not to your hope, but to Jesus, the source of your hope; look not to your faith, but to Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith. We shall never find happiness by looking at our prayers, our doings, or our feelings; it is what Jesus is, not what we are, that gives rest to the soul. If we would at once overcome Satan and have peace with God, it must be by "looking unto Jesus." Keep your eye simply on him; let his death, his sufferings, his merits, his glories, his intercession, be fresh upon your mind; when you wake in the morning look to him; when you lie down at night look to him. Do not let your hopes and fears come between you and Jesus; follow hard after him, and he will never fail you. C.H. Spurgeon

 

[Drew]

In other words, there are some here who claim that Jesus simply made it possible for us to save ourselves.

Well, I for one, am saying no such thing.

I folllow Paul, and Paul indeed asserts that it is through the work of the Spirit in our lives that we indeed get eternal life:

13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Reader, beware of those who will distort what some of us are actually saying. Following Paul, I am saying that, yes, we do need to "do something" to get eternal life. But that "something" is what Paul says it is - allowing the Spirit to work in our lives.

If anyone suggests that this amounts to "simply making it possible for us to save ourselves", that would be a cynical, misleading misrepresentation.

 

[Dave...]

In other words, there are some here who claim that Jesus simply made it possible for us to save ourselves.

Well, I for one, am saying no such thing.

I folllow Paul, and Paul indeed asserts that it is through the work of the Spirit in our lives that we indeed get eternal life:

13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Reader, beware of those who will distort what some of us are actually saying. Following Paul, I am saying that, yes, we do need to "do something" to get eternal life. But that "something" is what Paul says it is - allowing the Spirit to work in our lives.

If anyone suggests that this amounts to "simply making it possible for us to save ourselves", that would be a cynical, misleading misrepresentation.

Unfortunately Drew, when you and Francis quote your select verse, what ever that verse may be, you fail to see it within any sort of context. It's the context that paints the correct picture. Anyone can quote a verse and make claims from it. If you guys could just see some of that context, you would then see that both of you contradict yourselves at every turn. You are teaching a works based salvation. Period.

 

[Drew]

Unfortunately Drew, when you and Francis quote your select verse, what ever that verse may be, you fail to see it within any sort of context. It's the context that paints the correct picture. Anyone can quote a verse and make claims from it. If you guys could just see some of that context, you would then see that both of you contradict yourselves at every turn. You are teaching a works based salvation. Period.

You have no evidence for any contradiction in the position that I hold (otherwise please present it).

The real problem is that your "context" argument has two big problems:

1. I suggest that an open and full discussion of the context will show that the context is not really what you think it is.

2. Like gd, you seem to think that "context" has this magical power to make sentences say something that they cannot be saying. The statement "The cat ran across the lawn" cannot be made to read "The dog ran accross the lawn" even if the statement appears in the "context" of an extended treatment of dogs. When Paul writes that "life" (clearly eternal life in context) is attained by walking in the Spirit, there is no (legitimate) way to argue that "context" tells us that his real meaning is "life" is attained through some other way.

Like Romans 2:6-7, the Romans 8 text means what it means. If, as you seem to think, life is attained by some other means than "following the Spirit and putting to death the misdeeds of the sinful nature, then perhaps you can explain to us all why a person who believes as you do would write this:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

 

[lovely]

I basically plagiarized scripture with my previous comment.

I think there are two extreme, and wrong, positions concerning this issue.

1. People who believe in a shallow faith, one that is based solely upon saying a prayer, believing in God, and then living a life that doesn't reflect a regenerate heart...these folks need to be told to fear God and obey Him, because they are not truly following Christ. Their lives manifest NO righteousness at all, especially not God's. They are goats.

2. The idea that we can earn our way to Heaven apart from regeneration and God's love, like the Pharisees and Scribes. Again, these people are not following Christ, but an extreme form of legalism that excludes Jesus and mainfests only self-righteousness, not God's righteousness or Love.

Both extremes do not deny their flesh, do not pick up their cross, and ultimately do not follow Christ.

The Narrow way, as I understand it, is that our belief MUST be unto righteousness. Sanctification begins as soon as one is regenerate, with true belief/faith, and so I am not convinced that it should be separated from justification anymore, even in distinction. I admit I really need to study this more in Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit to be convinced completely. I have always advocated that obedience is needed, but I always felt it was the result, or a fruit, of justification...I don't think that the Scripture really teaches this on the whole...I think being justified and sanctified may be inseparable in the Word. In any case, I think we need to realize, and teach, that Fearing God and obeying Him is not the same as legalism, and that God desires us to be obedient, to do good works, to gladly endure trial and testing so that we can mature fully in love and manifest God's righteousness in our lives...not just individually, but also corporately. It is the one who overcomes the world through the Spirit that is allowed to enter in, and while I believe that God is the Author and Finisher, the one who makes me holy, I also think He expects me to dedicate myself, or consecrate myself, to Him by walking worthy (in the Spirit) of my calling...His calling upon my life.

 

[Adullam]

I basically plagiarized scripture with my previous comment.

I think there are two extreme, and wrong, positions concerning this issue.

1. People who believe in a shallow faith, one that is based solely upon saying a prayer, believing in God, and then living a life that doesn't reflect a regenerate heart...these folks need to be told to fear God and obey Him, because they are not truly following Christ. Their lives manifest NO righteousness at all, especially not God's. They are goats.

2. The idea that we can earn our way to Heaven apart from regeneration and God's love, like the Pharisees and Scribes. Again, these people are not following Christ, but an extreme form of legalism that excludes Jesus and mainfests only self-righteousness, not God's righteousness or Love.

Both extremes do not deny their flesh, do not pick up their cross, and ultimately do not follow Christ.

The Narrow way, as I understand it, is that our belief MUST be unto righteousness. Sanctification begins as soon as one is regenerate, with true belief/faith, and so I am not convinced that it should be separated from justification anymore, even in distinction. I admit I really need to study this more in Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit to be convinced completely. I have always advocated that obedience is needed, but I always felt it was the result, or a fruit, of justification...I don't think that the Scripture really teaches this on the whole...I think being justified and sanctified may be inseparable in the Word. In any case, I think we need to realize, and teach, that Fearing God and obeying Him is not the same as legalism, and that God desires us to be obedient, to do good works, to gladly endure trial and testing so that we can mature fully in love and manifest God's righteousness in our lives...not just individually, but also corporately. It is the one who overcomes the world through the Spirit that is allowed to enter in, and while I believe that God is the Author and Finisher, the one who makes me holy, I also think He expects me to dedicate myself, or consecrate myself, to Him by walking worthy (in the Spirit) of my calling...His calling upon my life.

A good honest post. !

 

[Adullam]

Here are 2 extremes

1. Man has do everything and perform works for God. God is a silent observer.

2. God has to do everything and cover for man. Man is simply an unruly observer.

The truth is that God and man are made partners in the process of salvation and sanctification. It isn't Man in us or Christ instead of us...but Christ IN us.

 

[Drew]

Here are 2 extremes

1. Man has do everything and perform works for God. God is a silent observer.

2. God has to do everything and cover for man. Man is simply an unruly observer.

The truth is that God and man are made partners in the process of salvation and sanctification. It isn't Man in us or Christ instead of us...but Christ IN us.

Even though I have been battling against those who want to rewrite the scriptures to take out the "inconvenient" clear statements about ultimate justification by good works, I would, in keeping with what I have been saying all along, take the position that, in any reasonable sense, our salvation is a work of God. We only "collaborate" to the extent that we submit to the Holy Spirit.

People may find this "division of responsibility" difficult to make sense of. Fine, we can talk about that. But I want to underscore my belief that our salvation is fundamentally the work of God, even though we need to "allow" God to do that work.

 

[Mysteryman]

Here are 2 extremes

1. Man has do everything and perform works for God. God is a silent observer.

2. God has to do everything and cover for man. Man is simply an unruly observer.

The truth is that God and man are made partners in the process of salvation and sanctification. It isn't Man in us or Christ instead of us...but Christ IN us.

Even though I have been battling against those who want to rewrite the scriptures to take out the "inconvenient" clear statements about ultimate justification by good works, I would, in keeping with what I have been saying all along, take the position that, in any reasonable sense, our salvation is a work of God. We only "collaborate" to the extent that we submit to the Holy Spirit.

People may find this "division of responsibility" difficult to make sense of. Fine, we can talk about that. But I want to underscore my belief that our salvation is fundamentally the work of God, even though we need to "allow" God to do that work.

Hi

From what I am reading. You are saying that salvation is the work of God, and then on the other hand, you are saying, that you allow God to do that work to obtain salvation. Am I reading your correctly ?

 

[Adullam]

Here are 2 extremes

1. Man has do everything and perform works for God. God is a silent observer.

2. God has to do everything and cover for man. Man is simply an unruly observer.

The truth is that God and man are made partners in the process of salvation and sanctification. It isn't Man in us or Christ instead of us...but Christ IN us.

Even though I have been battling against those who want to rewrite the scriptures to take out the "inconvenient" clear statements about ultimate justification by good works, I would, in keeping with what I have been saying all along, take the position that, in any reasonable sense, our salvation is a work of God. We only "collaborate" to the extent that we submit to the Holy Spirit.

People may find this "division of responsibility" difficult to make sense of. Fine, we can talk about that. But I want to underscore my belief that our salvation is fundamentally the work of God, even though we need to "allow" God to do that work.

I am trying to clarify the gobbledigook that so often passes for doctrine these days. "Sounds biblical" they say. That seems to be the standard.....who cares we're all saved anyway!!!! :gah Vague statements seek to confuse the issue. One quickly sees if one is just regurgitating what has been absorbed through indoctrination. One quickly sees what has been thought out and experienced.

We are not casual and passive observers of our own salvation. Those who say that are relating their own experience of nothing having yet happened to them. This reflects more on the person than 0n the plan of God. God is calling....but it seems few are listening.

Of course we must be willing to let God do His work in our lives. But a person who is led moment by moment by the Spirit will have far more contact with the active work of God than one who simply seeks the Lord for direction. There are few Christians in the entire world that are led only by the power of the Spirit. It is not only these who will be saved. These will rule with Christ.




We will be judged by our attitude and not just our performance. One need not attain a perfect walk for basic salvation. So if one is not controlled by the Spirit at all times....should they sin on purpose or avoid sin at all costs? If we TRY not to sin...is that works? Are we justified by being asleep at the wheel and letting all our passions envelop us so as to justify God? Are we condemned for resisting the devil wherever and however we can? Will God condemn children for lack of spiritual maturity?

NO, we are saved by doing what is right continually...in any power we can. Right is right. We are glorified with Christ by continually abiding in Him.

Better a humble child than a proud doer of miracles. Righteousness just is. Would that we stop judging with our own eyes.

 

[Drew]

NO, we are saved by doing what is right...in any power we can.

Did you really mean this? Any power we can?

If so, I think you are mistaken. Even though I agree with Paul that ultimate salvation is based on good works, I also agree with Paul that we need the Holy Spirit to do those works - they cannot be achieved through unaided moral self-effort.

 

[Adullam]

NO, we are saved by doing what is right...in any power we can.

Did you really mean this? Any power we can?

If so, I think you are mistaken. Even though I agree with Paul that ultimate salvation is based on good works, I also agree with Paul that we need the Holy Spirit to do those works - they cannot be achieved through unaided moral self-effort.

Don't panic! Who is to say and judge if a right work was done rightly? You? I? We judge by the fruit not the soil. We cannot see the roots of a tree but judge the fruits. If the fruit is good in every respect, would you rip the tree up to make sure there are roots????? Why the paranoia?

God works beyond our shallow viewpoint. He works in secret and in depth. Is that uncomfortable? Did God need our approval to frame the universe? Are we judges?

So if God accepts the righteous, why do we always turn to our version of interpretation of a certain verse we believe judges the world? Does our interpretation of a verse judge the world, or does God? This is a life or death consideration.

We are not judges of the origin of good works!!!!! Or else we would judge God's way. Judge not lest you be condemned.

He pled the cause of the afflicted and needy; Then it was well. Is not that what it means to know Me?" Declares the LORD. Jer 22:16

Here God is taking credit for something a man did outside the power of His Spirit. Here is wisdom. Why would God do that? God is the creator and He loves righteousness. Remember the wicked servant who buried his talent. His atitude was that he wouldn't lift a finger to do right unless God did it through him. He saw that God would take credit for something he did....and he was jealous against God. The folly of that servant was that he couldn't see that his very existence was to please God. Since he refised to try to please God...God rejects him. So it is with they who fight against righteousness in any form that doesn't have angels forcing a perfect work. Are we judges or athletes for God? We cannot be both. We must do ALL we can to do right. Technique is not part of the equation.

Sir, I knew that you were a hard man, harvesting where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered, ‘Evil and lazy slave! So you knew that I harvest where I didn’t sow and gather where I didn’t scatter? 27 Then you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received my money back with interest!

The wicked servant was so picky about where he invested. He was a judge of God and the value of works. He was wicked.

A good work is a GOOD work. We are created for good works. We will be judged by our works. God will not say...Were you in the Spirit when you saved that man's life? There are no quizzes in the kingdom. We don't have to be able to spell God's name right. So if a man does as the Samaritan did...will He not be approved by God? Read Matt 25. and the judgment of the nations. The ones who are declared righteous were not doing their works knowing what they were actually doing. They are surprised that they are justified. These are certainly not Spirit led Christians. A Spirit led Christian has all understanding. He knows what He is doing. A simple righteous person looks to help his neighbour. He is not seeking salvation by doing so.

Don't fall in the cracks between they who do righteously without knowing they are doing so, and they who are operating in resurrection life doing the works prepared in advance. On the one hand the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing....on the other one is following the Spirit and watching what Jesus is presently doing. One is according to righteousness and the other according to holiness.

"Start with what is necessary, then do what's possible....and suddenly you are doing the impossible." -- St. Francis of Asissi

"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." Rom 6:19

 

[Adullam]

A righteous man does what is right bacause it is right. A wicked man seeks justification for what he does.

 

[Drew]

Don't panic! Who is to say and judge if a right work was done rightly? You? I? We judge by the fruit not the soil. We cannot see the roots of a tree but judge the fruits. If the fruit is good in every respect, would you rip the tree up to make sure there are roots????? Why the paranoia?

Its kind of funny that people on both sides of this issue need to remember what Paul actually wrote.

The Daves and the Glorydaz's need to be constantly reminded that, yes, Paul wrote this:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

And it appears that you need to be reminded that Paul specifically identifies the Holy Spirit as the engine that enables us to attain life:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

I am only saying what Paul is saying - it is the Holy Spirit, not unaided self-effort - that enables us to "pass" the good works judgement at the end.

 

[Vic C.]

The power to declare ourselves righteous? The power to claim we will never fail the Lord? The Christian life is as a race. There is a beginning and an end. Our race isn't finished yet. We don't get to judge our own hearts as you do. To declare yourself eternally righteous because of a moment's decision is beyond ridiculous. It is both arrogant and presumptuous. You simply cannot let God be the justifier in your life. This is a scandal to you. This is out of your own hands so you don't like it. You prefer a slick assurance salesman's evangelical sounding pitch to trusting the living God in a living hope...not declaring yourself eternally justified and glorified in a smug assurance. A hypnotized person doesn't realize they've been hypnotized. A deceived person thinks they are seeing reality.

Adullam, I have to scratch my head wondering why this and the posts following it have such an air of self righteousness to them. Goodness, I read your posts and realize it is you who has a problem with God being the source of justification in your life. You don't seem to like it so you must see in scripture your part in your salvation, as if we are even capable of adding one iota to our salvation. The scriptures say salvation is of the Lord. I believe it and pray you all believe that too.

I really don't see the smugness you claim to extract from GD's posts. I see someone who is giving God all the glory and taking no credit themselves. It is God who saves and it is God who works in me, all for HIS glory, not mine. People need to realize who is really in charge here.

Jesus' first 12 disciples asked Him, who then can be saved.

He answered, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Let that be your reminder too. :yes

Yes, there was a time when I did hold a very synergistic view of the Scriptures and even heavily debated with my more monergeristic brothers and sisters, to my eventual displeasure and dissatisfaction. That included my "Lovely" friend above, Tina. But the more I grow in faith, the more I am led to believe they were more right than I was willing to admit at the time.

I am deeply humbled each and every time God works for HIS good and glory in and through our lives. :amen