The Character of the Cross Work of Christ

[Adullam]

Don't panic! Who is to say and judge if a right work was done rightly? You? I? We judge by the fruit not the soil. We cannot see the roots of a tree but judge the fruits. If the fruit is good in every respect, would you rip the tree up to make sure there are roots????? Why the paranoia?

Its kind of funny that people on both sides of this issue need to remember what Paul actually wrote.

The Daves and the Glorydaz's need to be constantly reminded that, yes, Paul wrote this:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

And it appears that you need to be reminded that Paul specifically identifies the Holy Spirit as the engine that enables us to attain life:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

I am only saying what Paul is saying - it is the Holy Spirit, not unaided self-effort - that enables us to "pass" the good works judgement at the end.

Department stores have "store" written on them for easy identification. Milk has "milk" written on it as well for easy identification. ;) The things of God must be spirirually discerned.

Would a trrue church have "church" written on it? (but I disgress)

So we must be careful when speaking about things that are unseen and usualy ungraspable to the human mind. Are we looking for proper terminilogy or proper understanding?

 

[Adullam]

The power to declare ourselves righteous? The power to claim we will never fail the Lord? The Christian life is as a race. There is a beginning and an end. Our race isn't finished yet. We don't get to judge our own hearts as you do. To declare yourself eternally righteous because of a moment's decision is beyond ridiculous. It is both arrogant and presumptuous. You simply cannot let God be the justifier in your life. This is a scandal to you. This is out of your own hands so you don't like it. You prefer a slick assurance salesman's evangelical sounding pitch to trusting the living God in a living hope...not declaring yourself eternally justified and glorified in a smug assurance. A hypnotized person doesn't realize they've been hypnotized. A deceived person thinks they are seeing reality.

Adullam, I have to scratch my head wondering why this and the posts following it have such an air of self righteousness to them. Goodness, I read your posts and realize it is you who has a problem with God being the source of justification in your life. You don't seem to like it so you must see in scripture your part in your salvation, as if we are even capable of adding one iota to our salvation. The scriptures say salvation is of the Lord. I believe it and pray you all believe that too.

I really don't see the smugness you claim to extract from GD's posts. I see someone who is giving God all the glory and taking no credit themselves. It is God who saves and it is God who works in me, all for HIS glory, not mine. People need to realize who is really in charge here.

Jesus' first 12 disciples asked Him, who then can be saved.

He answered, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Let that be your reminder too. :yes

Yes, there was a time when I did hold a very synergistic view of the Scriptures and even heavily debated with my more monergeristic brothers and sisters, to my eventual displeasure and dissatisfaction. That included my "Lovely" friend above, Tina. But the more I grow in faith, the more I am led to believe they were more right than I was willing to admit at the time.

I am deeply humbled each and every time God works for HIS good and glory in and through our lives. :amen

Now you have me scratching my head! Biblical sounding phrases cannot be compared with proper discernment. They certainly don't replace it. A forum, such as this serves to deepen one's grasp of the truth, hopefully. The bible is after all, the most mis-undesrtood book in the world.

Taking one post out of context of other posts and then pontificating on it, shows a partisan leaning rather than an opening for discussion. You have perhaps missed the point of this discussion.

Do you justify yourself through your own faith? Do you await justification by God? Do you claim unconditional salvation based on your acceptance of what you have read or heard?

Rather than psycho-analyze a person holding a certain position, as GD was doing and you seem intent on supporting, embark on an informed discussion the purpose of which is the edification of all. This is through a little something called dialogue. :nod

After all, to a religious person all seems religious. We judge others the way we are ourselves.

 

[Mysteryman]

The power to declare ourselves righteous? The power to claim we will never fail the Lord? The Christian life is as a race. There is a beginning and an end. Our race isn't finished yet. We don't get to judge our own hearts as you do. To declare yourself eternally righteous because of a moment's decision is beyond ridiculous. It is both arrogant and presumptuous. You simply cannot let God be the justifier in your life. This is a scandal to you. This is out of your own hands so you don't like it. You prefer a slick assurance salesman's evangelical sounding pitch to trusting the living God in a living hope...not declaring yourself eternally justified and glorified in a smug assurance. A hypnotized person doesn't realize they've been hypnotized. A deceived person thinks they are seeing reality.

Adullam, I have to scratch my head wondering why this and the posts following it have such an air of self righteousness to them. Goodness, I read your posts and realize it is you who has a problem with God being the source of justification in your life. You don't seem to like it so you must see in scripture your part in your salvation, as if we are even capable of adding one iota to our salvation. The scriptures say salvation is of the Lord. I believe it and pray you all believe that too.

I really don't see the smugness you claim to extract from GD's posts. I see someone who is giving God all the glory and taking no credit themselves. It is God who saves and it is God who works in me, all for HIS glory, not mine. People need to realize who is really in charge here.

Jesus' first 12 disciples asked Him, who then can be saved.

He answered, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Let that be your reminder too. :yes

Yes, there was a time when I did hold a very synergistic view of the Scriptures and even heavily debated with my more monergeristic brothers and sisters, to my eventual displeasure and dissatisfaction. That included my "Lovely" friend above, Tina. But the more I grow in faith, the more I am led to believe they were more right than I was willing to admit at the time.

I am deeply humbled each and every time God works for HIS good and glory in and through our lives. :amen

Now you have me scratching my head! Biblical sounding phrases cannot be compared with proper discernment. They certainly don't replace it. A forum, such as this serves to deepen one's grasp of the truth, hopefully. The bible is after all, the most mis-undesrtood book in the world.

Taking one post out of context of other posts and then pontificating on it, shows a partisan leaning rather than an opening for discussion. You have perhaps missed the point of this discussion.

Do you justify yourself through your own faith? Do you await justification by God? Do you claim unconditional salvation based on your acceptance of what you have read or heard?

Rather than psycho-analyze a person holding a certain position, as GD was doing and you seem intent on supporting, embark on an informed discussion the purpose of which is the edification of all. This is through a little something called dialogue. :nod

After all, to a religious person all seems religious. We judge others the way we are ourselves.

Hi

There are times that one's dialouge falls on deaf ears. There could be more than one reason for this. However, gd, never to my understanding of what she has said, even comes close to what you are suggesting. I do not recall her stating that her justification is based upon her own faith. I have read , from what she has written, that her understanding of justification is based upon what the scriptures promise. That we are justified in Christ, not of our own works or our own faith, but of the faith "of" Christ. That we have been justified and sanctified and redeem by the power of God through Christ.

I don't believe that I have misrepresented what she has been stating.

 

[Drew]

From what I am reading. You are saying that salvation is the work of God, and then on the other hand, you are saying, that you allow God to do that work to obtain salvation. Am I reading your correctly ?

Yes, basically.

I see no conceptual problem here. I anticipate that you may object as follows: If we do anything at all in the process, then how can it be the work of God?

I would appeal to a common sense analogy. When someone is brought to the hospital and requires complex life-saving surgery, that person still needs to consent to the surgery. But, I would suggest that no reasonable person would say that the person's "salvation" is their own work - it is the "work" of the doctors, nurse, and the associated medical technology.

I think this "it has to be all God or it is man's work" line is entirely unrealistic and denies the fundamental creaturehood of human beings - we have free will (you may deny this - we'll see) and we need to "allow" God to work through us.

To be fair, though, I am only speculating as to how you might respond.

 

[Drew]

Now I'm sure there are those who would love to claim this breastplate of righteousness as "my righteousness", and not imputed righteousness, but it is a part of the armour, nonetheless.

More of your (unrepentent), persistent misrepresentation of what I am saying (I am quite sure that I am included in your statement.) Any objective reader will know that while I will do not believe the Scripture teach the impurtation of Christ's righteousness, I most certainly do not believe in anything that could remotely be termed "my righteousness".

It is so difficult to have an interaction with someone who persistently twists what others say into something else.

Oh but wait - if you rework Paul's statements, then I should be surprised that you rework mine. At least I am in good company.

 

[Mysteryman]

From what I am reading. You are saying that salvation is the work of God, and then on the other hand, you are saying, that you allow God to do that work to obtain salvation. Am I reading your correctly ?

Yes, basically.

I see no conceptual problem here. I anticipate that you may object as follows: If we do anything at all in the process, then how can it be the work of God?

I would appeal to a common sense analogy. When someone is brought to the hospital and requires complex life-saving surgery, that person still needs to consent to the surgery. But, I would suggest that no reasonable person would say that the person's "salvation" is their own work - it is the "work" of the doctors, nurse, and the associated medical technology.

I think this "it has to be all God or it is man's work" line is entirely unrealistic and denies the fundamental creaturehood of human beings - we have free will (you may deny this - we'll see) and we need to "allow" God to work through us.

To be fair, though, I am only speculating as to how you might respond.

Hi Drew

My question was an attempt to find common ground, if there is common ground. I want to try and set the record straight as to what one is exactly saying, rather than assuming.

God is the one who has saved us, agreed ? He is the one who has given us eternal life through Christ, agreed ?

If you agree with me here, then you should also agree with me, and the scriptures, that we of ourselves can do nothing to achieve eternal life. Eternal life has been given to us , because there is nothing we can do in order to earn our salvation. This is where I believe you and I and gd have come to an impasse. And has become an endless conversation leading nowhere.

If you disagree , then there is nothing I, nor gd can say that will change your mind. In the many conversations, many things have been said, that have been taken out of the context of the scriptures. You may disagree, but that will not change each others stance, as to whether you agree or disagree. That is because there has been so much said, between yourself and myself and yourself and gd, that there leaves little room for any further discussion.

If I am understanding you correctly, you still believe, that through the Holy Spirit, you will do good works that will help you achieve eternal life. I believe, that one can not achieve eternal life by any good works, with the help of the Holy Spirit or no help from the Holy Spirit.

I believe that salvation is by grace and not of works, lest any man should boast. I do not believe that there is any room in this statment, that can be stretched into saying anything other than what it actually says. It seems to me, logically thinking, that if someone does some good work , even with the help of the Holy Spirit . Then by shear logic, they themselves can boast that they believed the Holy Spirit and accomplished these so called good works , and by such are receiving eternal life because their faith was based upn their works, by which helped them achieve eternal life.

If this were true, then almost all men, especially those who died before Christ came and the Holy Spirit was given, for them to achieve eternal life at all ! This would make God a respector of persons, based upon the availability of the Holy Spirit in their lives. I believe this to be a false premise , and that this false premise would suggest that only those whom have been given the Holy Spirit can attain eternal life. This kind of thinking, in my estimation, would mean that God did not love the whole world, but only those whom he gives access to the Holy Spirit. And this would go against the very words of God, that he indeed did love the whole world.

And since you and I and gd have been arguing over whether or not one can achieve eternal life. My stance is such, that some will not attain eternal life because of sinning a sin that was unto death. And it has nothing to do with whether or not they could attain eternal life, but that they were so blinded by their own evil, that they saw fit to sin a sin unto death. And because of this sinning a sin unto death, the have sealed their own fate. God loved them, but they did not love God .

Bless

 

[Drew]

God is the one who has saved us, agreed ? He is the one who has given us eternal life through Christ, agreed ?

If you agree with me here, then you should also agree with me, and the scriptures, that we of ourselves can do nothing to achieve eternal life.

No I do not agree with you here. And like many, I think you have this "all or nothing" idea that is simply not scriptural. Paul tellls us here that we have an obligation that we must act on in order to get life:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

So it is clear - the human being does play a role in ultimate salvation, even if it is simply to allow the Spirit to work. "All or nothing" is simpler to understand, but is not Biblical. The picture that we get in the Bible is one where salvation is substantially an act of God's grace, but the human has to allow that grace to work in their life.

But Paul says what he says, MM - both here and in Romans 2, even though you make the astonishing claim that you somehow know that the original greek cannot match to what he have in the best manuscripts.

The real issue is this: why do you, gd, and others simply not believe what Paul writes? I do not want to seem rude, but you clearly "pick and choose" which texts you are willing to accept.

 

[Drew]

If I am understanding you correctly, you still believe, that through the Holy Spirit, you will do good works that will help you achieve eternal life. I believe, that one can not achieve eternal life by any good works, with the help of the Holy Spirit or no help from the Holy Spirit.

Then you disagree with Paul:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is the real issue - your inability to accept these texts. So, in the case of Romans 2, you make the remarkable claim that Paul's original text was substantially different than what we have in all the modern translations. Where is the evidence for this truly astonishing claim, MM?

I believe that salvation is by grace and not of works, lest any man should boast.

We have been through this many times - the context of Eph 2:8-9 shows that Paul is talking about the works of the Law of Moses.

 

[Drew]

If this were true, then almost all men, especially those who died before Christ came and the Holy Spirit was given, for them to achieve eternal life at all !

I was waiting for someone to challenge me on this.

And it has finally happened. Interestingly, I would say that this is the best possible critique of the position that I am advancing. Indeed, if the Spirit is only given "post-Cross" then, if my argument is correct, no one pre-Jesus gets saved.

And that is obviously not true - we know that Paul considers Abraham to have been justified.

My response?

I suggest that there is no evidence that the Spirit of God was not given to people before the Cross.

 

[Mysteryman]

If this were true, then almost all men, especially those who died before Christ came and the Holy Spirit was given, for them to achieve eternal life at all !

I was waiting for someone to challenge me on this.

And it has finally happened. Interestingly, I would say that this is the best possible critique of the position that I am advancing. Indeed, if the Spirit is only given "post-Cross" then, if my argument is correct, no one pre-Jesus gets saved.

And that is obviously not true - we know that Paul considers Abraham to have been justified.

My response?

I suggest that there is no evidence that the Spirit of God was not given to people before the Cross.

Hi Drew

It seems that in talking with you and Chester and francis, that all three of you like to give suggestive thoughts without any scriptural back up.

The Holy Spirit was not given until after the day of Pentecost.

Pre-Pentecost, only the Prophets received the Spirit of God upon them. And that was only for the purpose of giving revelation from God unto others. Not one person pre-Pentecost is saved according to your theory. However, just like francis and Chester, you three add extra biblical suggestions that are just not true !

For many, many years now, you use the power of suggestion, instead of sound biblical truths.

 

[Mysteryman]

God is the one who has saved us, agreed ? He is the one who has given us eternal life through Christ, agreed ?

If you agree with me here, then you should also agree with me, and the scriptures, that we of ourselves can do nothing to achieve eternal life.

No I do not agree with you here. And like many, I think you have this "all or nothing" idea that is simply not scriptural. Paul tellls us here that we have an obligation that we must act on in order to get life:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

So it is clear - the human being does play a role in ultimate salvation, even if it is simply to allow the Spirit to work. "All or nothing" is simpler to understand, but is not Biblical. The picture that we get in the Bible is one where salvation is substantially an act of God's grace, but the human has to allow that grace to work in their life.

But Paul says what he says, MM - both here and in Romans 2, even though you make the astonishing claim that you somehow know that the original greek cannot match to what he have in the best manuscripts.

The real issue is this: why do you, gd, and others simply not believe what Paul writes? I do not want to seem rude, but you clearly "pick and choose" which texts you are willing to accept.

Hi Drew

Here again, you take one verse of scripture and build a doctrine upon this one verse.

The Word of God also tells us, that every man sins and falls short of the glory of God. That there is not one righteous, because of sin. But God in his mercy and grace, has redeemed us through his Son.

Romans 8:13 is talking about walking in death, not being sent to the second death ! The second half of verse 13 also states, that "if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" < Which means walking in life. Plus, one can not walk by the Spirit unless one has the Spirit. And if one has the Spirit of Christ in them, Romans 8:14 and 15 tells us that we have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear. Which is exactly what you are suggesting by your comments Drew ! Also, it goes on to say in these two verses, we are led by the Spirit of God, thus making us the sons of God. Because of the fact , that we have Christ in us.

Now comes verse 16 - "The Spirit (God) itself beareth witness with our spirit (Christ in us - the Spirit of his Son in our hearts, crying Abba Father) that we are the children of God"< Notice, it does not say we can achieve anything , so that we can be the children of God, the sons of God. It tells us, that the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirit, which is Christ in us, that we are the sons of God !

So in conclusion - Romans 8:13 is talking about ---- walking in death ---- or ----- walking in life .

And as the whole Word of God is to be used as the fullness of context. Only one who sins a sin unto death, will be sent into the second death. From time to time, everyone will live after their flesh, because every man sins and falls short of the glory of God.

Context Drew -- Context ! !

 

[glorydaz]

Hi Drew

Here again, you take one verse of scripture and build a doctrine upon this one verse.

The Word of God also tells us, that every man sins and falls short of the glory of God. That there is not one righteous, because of sin. But God in his mercy and grace, has redeemed us through his Son.

Romans 8:13 is talking about walking in death, not being sent to the second death ! The second half of verse 13 also states, that "if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" < Which means walking in life. Plus, one can not walk by the Spirit unless one has the Spirit. And if one has the Spirit of Christ in them, Romans 8:14 and 15 tells us that we have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear. Which is exactly what you are suggesting by your comments Drew ! Also, it goes on to say in these two verses, we are led by the Spirit of God, thus making us the sons of God. Because of the fact , that we have Christ in us.

Now comes verse 16 - "The Spirit (God) itself beareth witness with our spirit (Christ in us - the Spirit of his Son in our hearts, crying Abba Father) that we are the children of God"< Notice, it does not say we can achieve anything , so that we can be the children of God, the sons of God. It tells us, that the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirit, which is Christ in us, that we are the sons of God !

So in conclusion - Romans 8:13 is talking about ---- walking in death ---- or ----- walking in life .

And as the whole Word of God is to be used as the fullness of context. Only one who sins a sin unto death, will be sent into the second death. From time to time, everyone will live after their flesh, because every man sins and falls short of the glory of God.

Context Drew -- Context ! !

You made that just about as clear as it gets, but I'm thinking, for some odd reason, it may go unheard by those who need to hear it most. Great job, though. .

 

[francisdesales]

Hi Drew

It seems that in talking with you and Chester and francis, that all three of you like to give suggestive thoughts without any scriptural back up.

The Holy Spirit was not given until after the day of Pentecost.

Pre-Pentecost, only the Prophets received the Spirit of God upon them.

There you go, contradicting yourself. It is so easy to defeat your arguments, because you provide ample words to build upon the argument necessary to overturn you and your shallow consideration of Scriptures.

The Holy Spirit has ALWAYS been active in men, even before Pentecost. The fact is that the Spirit of God was given in a NEW and DEFINITIVE manner, available to ALL men, at Pentecost. Clearly, Romans 2 is an example of the Spirit's work totally independent of Pentecost, as pagans are being saved by the Law written on their hearts...

And as Drew wrote and implies, numerous righteous persons are saved - without doubt by the Spirit working in them, since no one can come to God ALONE. Abraham was justified by faith, did he self-generate that faith???

And that was only for the purpose of giving revelation from God unto others. Not one person pre-Pentecost is saved according to your theory. However, just like francis and Chester, you three add extra biblical suggestions that are just not true !

Can't resist attacking someone who was not even in the conversation, can you...

The issue here is that when the Bible disagrees with Mystery man, it becomes "extra biblical suggestions". (of course, we had to make sure he wasn't using a cook book to figure out what "extra" actually means...) :crazy

His private interpretation thus has become the infalible norm for all people, and when anyone disagrees, even using Scriptures, it is ignored. The Eucharist is an excellent example of ignoring Scriptures on the part of MM.

As such, the value of his criticism is pretty much hot air.

 

[Drew]

It seems that in talking with you and Chester and francis, that all three of you like to give suggestive thoughts without any scriptural back up.

This is, of course untrue.

The Holy Spirit was not given until after the day of Pentecost.

I do not deny that the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost. I would be interested to hear your argument as to how this precludes the Spirit being manifested before Pentecost.

Pre-Pentecost, only the Prophets received the Spirit of God upon them. And that was only for the purpose of giving revelation from God unto others.

Are you prepared to actually defend this statement from the Scriptures.

Not one person pre-Pentecost is saved according to your theory.

No. Not one person pre-Pentecost is saved according to your undefended assertion that people pre-Pentecost could not have have been given the Spirit.

However, just like francis and Chester, you three add extra biblical suggestions that are just not true ! For many, many years now, you use the power of suggestion, instead of sound biblical truths.

Even if thise were true, which it is not, I am still interested why you deny and / or rework Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8:13

 

[Drew]

Here again, you take one verse of scripture and build a doctrine upon this one verse.

No. Unlike you, I take all of scripture into account - you have a model into which Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8:13 cannot be integrated. So, at least in respect to Romans 2:6-7, you claim that you have "special knowledge" to the effect that Paul's original text cannot bear any resemblance to the best greek manuscripts we have.

A truly outrageous claim which you have, of course, never backed up with any actual evidence. It must be nice to feel free to "re-work" scriptures.

The Word of God also tells us, that every man sins and falls short of the glory of God. That there is not one righteous, because of sin. But God in his mercy and grace, has redeemed us through his Son.

First, the Bible says that all have sinned, but it does not say that all are irrevocably stuck in slavery to sin. As has been repeatedly shown to both you and gd, there is this chapter in Romans - chapter 8 - which describes how the believer is enabled to do good works through the Spirit.

You ignore this, of course, and argue that man cannot be saved by good works because he is stuck in sin.

 

[Drew]

Romans 8:13 is talking about walking in death, not being sent to the second death ! The second half of verse 13 also states, that "if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" < Which means walking in life.

No. I know how badly you need to have this text not say what it says - that if, repeat if, you walk in the Spirit you will get eternal life. It appears that you have, again, ignored context. Note the clear specificity of allusion to giving life to otherwise mortal bodies. Paul is not talking about "walking in life" with no reference to future immortality - He is clearly talking about how mortal bodies are transformed from that mortal status. Clearly the issue here is how one escapes the limits of mortality. So this is clearly a treatment of how eternal life is attained:

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

This text cannot be misread - at least legitimately - it is a clear statement that it is through walking in the Spirit that mortality is escaped.

This is indeed about "utlimate salvation".

 

[Drew]

You made that just about as clear as it gets, but I'm thinking, for some odd reason, it may go unheard by those who need to hear it most. Great job, though. .

It is a great job - a great hatchet job. MM cannot allow this text to be a treatment about how mortality is escaped, even though context shows otherwise (as per my previous post).

 

[Drew]

Now comes verse 16 - "The Spirit (God) itself beareth witness with our spirit (Christ in us - the Spirit of his Son in our hearts, crying Abba Father) that we are the children of God"< Notice, it does not say we can achieve anything , so that we can be the children of God, the sons of God. It tells us, that the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirit, which is Christ in us, that we are the sons of God !

You think that this presents a problem to me because you either cannot, or will not, accept that Paul's model of justification / salvation is not a "one-timer".

Yes we are declared children of God at the point of faith. And yes, we are declared "justified" at the point of faith. But Paul means everything that he writes - including Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8:13.

So what is Paul saying? He is saying that there is indeed a coming good works judgement - why you can deny his plain teaching about this is a mystery - but, that we know in advance who will pass that judgement, namely those whom the Spirit is transforming, and to whom the Spirit has been given as an act of pure grace.

 

[glorydaz]

First, the Bible says that all have sinned, but it does not say that all are irrevocably stuck in slavery to sin. As has been repeatedly shown to both you and gd, there is this chapter in Romans - chapter 8 - which describes how the believer is enabled to do good works through the Spirit.

You ignore this, of course, and argue that man cannot be saved by good works because he is stuck in sin.

Now, Drew, you're playing fast and loose with the truth on this one. What you have repeatedly shown is your misunderstanding of what Paul teaches. No one has ever said the believer isn't enabled to do good works through the Holy Spirit...those good works aren't what saves us, however. It was Christ's good work on the cross that does that. Give Him all the glory...it's His alone.

How can we be stuck in sin if our sins are "covered" and our iniquities forgiven?

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

We're reconciled by Christ's death, and we are saved by His life.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Man isn't stuck in slavery to sin.
Where did you get that idea, Drew?

The natural man is still under the dominion of sin and death, but the spiritual man is not.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Dave...]

"And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split," - Matt. 27:50, 51.

"Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,"-Hebrews 10:19, 20.