The Character of the Cross Work of Christ

[Dave...]

The Centrality of the Cross--by James Montgomery Boice

...if the death of Christ on the cross is the true meaning of the Incarnation, then there is no gospel without the cross. Christmas by itself is no gospel. The life of Christ is no gospel. Even the resurrection, important as it is in the total scheme of things, is no gospel by itself. For the good news is not just that God became man, nor that God has spoken to reveal a proper way of life for us, or even that death, the great enemy, is conquered. Rather, the good news is that sin has been dealt with (of which the resurrection is a proof); that Jesus has suffered its penalty for us as our representative, so that we might never have to suffer it; and that therefore all who believe in him can look forward to heaven. ...Emulation of Christ's life and teaching is possible only to those who enter into a new relationship with God through faith in Jesus as their substitute. The resurrection is not merely a victory over death (though it is that) but a proof that the atonement was a satisfactory atonement in the sight of the Father (Rom 4:25); and that death, the result of sin, is abolished on that basis.


Any gospel that talks merely of the Christ-event, meaning the Incarnation without the atonement, is a false gospel. Any gospel that talks about the love of God without pointing out that his love led him to pay the ultimate price for sin in the person of his Son on the cross is a false gospel. The only true gospel is of the 'one mediator' (1 Tim. 2:5-6), who gave himself for us.


Finally, just as there can be no gospel without the atonement as the reason for the Incarnation, so also there can be no Christian life without it. Without the atonement the Incarnation theme easily becomes a kind of deification of the human and leads to arrogance and self advancement. With the atonement the true message of the life of Christ, and therefore also of the the life of the Christian man or woman, is humility and self sacrifice for the obvious needs of others. The Christian life is not indifference to those who are hungry or sick or suffering from some other lack. It is not contentment with our own abundance, neither the abundance of middle class living with home and cars and clothes and vacations, nor the abundance of education or even the spiritual abundance of good churches, Bibles, Bible teaching or Christian friends and acquaintances. Rather, it is the awareness that others lack these things and that we must therefore sacrifice many of our own interests in order to identify with them and thus bring them increasingly into the abundance we enjoy... We will live for Christ fully only when we are willing to be impoverished, if necessary, in order that others might be helped.'

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... cross.html

 

[Drew]

Now, Drew, you're playing fast and loose with the truth on this one. What you have repeatedly shown is your misunderstanding of what Paul teaches. No one has ever said the believer isn't enabled to do good works through the Holy Spirit...those good works aren't what saves us, however. It was Christ's good work on the cross that does that. Give Him all the glory...it's His alone.

No gd - you are not accurately representing how this disussion has gone.

You have, at various points, tried to deny Romans 2:6-7 by arguing that since "all have sinned" Paul cannot mean what he says in 2:6-7 (which leaves you with the challenge of explaining why he wrote those verses), precisely because we are stuck in sin and cannot possibly "do any good works" and thereby be saved.

I have shown that this argument does not work - that you are trying to turn "all have sinned" into "all will continueto sin".

At the end of the day, you have presented nothing that "explains away" Romans 2:6-7.

 

[Mysteryman]

Now, Drew, you're playing fast and loose with the truth on this one. What you have repeatedly shown is your misunderstanding of what Paul teaches. No one has ever said the believer isn't enabled to do good works through the Holy Spirit...those good works aren't what saves us, however. It was Christ's good work on the cross that does that. Give Him all the glory...it's His alone.

No gd - you are not accurately representing how this disussion has gone.

You have, at various points, tried to deny Romans 2:6-7 by arguing that since "all have sinned" Paul cannot mean what he says in 2:6-7 (which leaves you with the challenge of explaining why he wrote those verses), precisely because we are stuck in sin and cannot possibly "do any good works" and thereby be saved.

I have shown that this argument does not work - that you are trying to turn "all have sinned" into "all will continueto sin".

At the end of the day, you have presented nothing that "explains away" Romans 2:6-7.

Hi Drew

You should consider >

II Corinth. 11:15) - "Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works"

 

[Drew]

II Corinth. 11:15) - "Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works"

Paul is talking about the fate of those followers of Satan who masquerade as apostles. He says that they will punished for their evil deeds. Fine.

Precisely how does this contradict Paul's teaching that ultimate justification / salvation is by deeds?

 

[glorydaz]

Now, Drew, you're playing fast and loose with the truth on this one. What you have repeatedly shown is your misunderstanding of what Paul teaches. No one has ever said the believer isn't enabled to do good works through the Holy Spirit...those good works aren't what saves us, however. It was Christ's good work on the cross that does that. Give Him all the glory...it's His alone.

No gd - you are not accurately representing how this disussion has gone.

You have, at various points, tried to deny Romans 2:6-7 by arguing that since "all have sinned" Paul cannot mean what he says in 2:6-7 (which leaves you with the challenge of explaining why he wrote those verses), precisely because we are stuck in sin and cannot possibly "do any good works" and thereby be saved.

I have shown that this argument does not work - that you are trying to turn "all have sinned" into "all will continueto sin".

At the end of the day, you have presented nothing that "explains away" Romans 2:6-7.

I don't have to "explain away" Romans 2:6-7, it fits in perfectly with the rest of Romans. Paul is talking about the state of mankind from the beginning. He goes on to say all will face the judgment, and that all men sin and come short of God's glory. Therefore, God's grace is manifest toward men by means of faith in Jesus Christ. Those who believe will be justified before God, and those who don't will die in their sins. Jesus Christ is the way...and the life. Eternal life can only be gained though the body and blood of the Lamb...man can only be born into the body of Christ, and it's his position in Christ that makes him a son of God and a citizen of the eternal kingdom of God. Man cannot work or obey his way into heaven. Man surrenders to God and God does a work in him. Salvation is a gift....a gift with many perks....a gift that keeps on giving.... no one ever desires to return the gift because it comes with a changed heart.

 

[dadof10]

Good deeds are merely the evidence whereby we can know you were saved.
They are the natural outcome of being saved....

Where does Scripture teach this?

 

[francisdesales]

I don't have to "explain away" Romans 2:6-7, it fits in perfectly with the rest of Romans. Paul is talking about the state of mankind from the beginning.

LOL!!!

Romans is not about the "state of mankind", but about the supposed superiority of the Jews over the Gentiles and that God had always justified by faith, not by works of the Mosaic Law. The evidence is quite clear, it is the Spirit of God that justifies and sanctifies, not our own deeds without the Spirit. National election is not for the sake of pride over others. Election to the Church does not guarantee individual salvation to the Kingdom, as evil Jews or Christians could be cut off from the root.

He goes on to say all will face the judgment, and that all men sin and come short of God's glory.

But not for the reason you think...

This is merely a statement that all men, to include Jews, need God... Not that we are all "filthy rags". God is impartial, even Jews will be judged - as will Christians - based upon their works in the Spirit. Whether they are spiritual Jews or not. Being a national Jew was meaningless.

Therefore, God's grace is manifest toward men by means of faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, you got that right. We don't need to be perfect.

Those who believe will be justified before God, and those who don't will die in their sins. Jesus Christ is the way...and the life. Eternal life can only be gained though the body and blood of the Lamb...man can only be born into the body of Christ, and it's his position in Christ that makes him a son of God and a citizen of the eternal kingdom of God. Man cannot work or obey his way into heaven.

Man cannot enter heaven without that obedience to God...

Man surrenders to God and God does a work in him. Salvation is a gift....a gift with many perks....a gift that keeps on giving.... no one ever desires to return the gift because it comes with a changed heart.

Hearts change, that is true. In both directions... Experience teaches us this as truth.

 

[Drew]

I don't have to "explain away" Romans 2:6-7, it fits in perfectly with the rest of Romans. Paul is talking about the state of mankind from the beginning. He goes on to say all will face the judgment, and that all men sin and come short of God's glory. Therefore, God's grace is manifest toward men by means of faith in Jesus Christ.

You are basically saying:

1. All men sin;
2. All will face judgement;
3. Since all men sin, no one could possibly pass that judgement;
4. Therefore the only possible way to be saved is by faith apart from good works.

There are several problems with this. First, you assume that men must be "perfect" to be saved by "good works" - you have zero Biblical evidence for this presumption. Second, since you believe such "perfection" would be required to be saved by works, you see the "transformation by Spirit", described in Romans 8 as not having any bearing at all on the matter of ultimate salvation.

Yet Paul writes this to believers:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Paul's real argument is this: those who place faith in Jesus are given the Spirit who then transforms them into the kind of people who will pass the Romans 2 judgement.

I will continue to point out that, on your theory, you have Paul saying people will be saved by good works in Romans 2, yet he believes that zero persons will be saved that way.

Clear-thinking competent writers do not make a statement that people will be saved by good works, while at the same time believing that nno one will be saved that way.

 

[Mysteryman]

II Corinth. 11:15) - "Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works"

Paul is talking about the fate of those followers of Satan who masquerade as apostles. He says that they will punished for their evil deeds. Fine.

Precisely how does this contradict Paul's teaching that ultimate justification / salvation is by deeds?

Hi Drew

Then let me ask his ----- Is it not true, that healing in the name of Jesus Christ, would be a good deed ?

 

[Drew]

Then let me ask his ----- Is it not true, that healing in the name of Jesus Christ, would be a good deed ?

Yes, of course. Healing in the name of Jesus Christ is a very good deed. I would be interested to know where you are going with this......

 

[Mysteryman]

Then let me ask his ----- Is it not true, that healing in the name of Jesus Christ, would be a good deed ?

Yes, of course. Healing in the name of Jesus Christ is a very good deed. I would be interested to know where you are going with this......

Hi Drew

Well, you have been talking about getting eternal life by good deeds , right ? Would this be a good deed, that would gain you eternal life ? Or , at least one of them ?

 

[Drew]

Well, you have been talking about getting eternal life by good deeds , right ? Would this be a good deed, that would gain you eternal life ? Or , at least one of them ?

The Bible does not give a "list" of "which" good deeds are necessary to pass the Romans 2 good works judgement. So I do not have an answer to your question.

But this does not mean that Paul does not mean what he writes in Romans 2 and Romans 8 - eternal life is granted according to deeds.

 

[Mysteryman]

Well, you have been talking about getting eternal life by good deeds , right ? Would this be a good deed, that would gain you eternal life ? Or , at least one of them ?

The Bible does not give a "list" of "which" good deeds are necessary to pass the Romans 2 good works judgement. So I do not have an answer to your question.

But this does not mean that Paul does not mean what he writes in Romans 2 and Romans 8 - eternal life is granted according to deeds.

Hi Drew

Correct, it doesn't. So it now has become a guessing conquest.

 

[Drew]

Hi Drew

Correct, it doesn't. So it now has become a guessing conquest.

No.

If you have been reading my posts carefully you would know that I have been asserting that faith (entailing surrender to the Holy Spirit) is fully sufficient to ensure a favourable outcome of the coming judgement even if the "requirements" are not clearly set forth.

In other words, the Christian need not worry about the "standard" - all they need to do is to remain in faith, and the Spirit will do the rest.

 

[francisdesales]

If you have been reading my posts carefully you would know that I have been asserting that faith (entailing surrender to the Holy Spirit) is fully sufficient to ensure a favourable outcome of the coming judgement even if the "requirements" are not clearly set forth.

In other words, the Christian need not worry about the "standard" - all they need to do is to remain in faith, and the Spirit will do the rest.

Absolutely. Merely ASKING the question shows a complete lack of understanding of the POINT of Romans - an adherence to the entire point Paul is attempting to diffuse - that works of the law (or any other works to merely appease God) do not save. Listing "works that save" completely undermines Paul's point of an inner heart and conversion.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Drew

Correct, it doesn't. So it now has become a guessing conquest.

No.

If you have been reading my posts carefully you would know that I have been asserting that faith (entailing surrender to the Holy Spirit) is fully sufficient to ensure a favourable outcome of the coming judgement even if the "requirements" are not clearly set forth.

In other words, the Christian need not worry about the "standard" - all they need to do is to remain in faith, and the Spirit will do the rest.

Hi Drew

Well, thats an interesting concept. Just do not worry about it. And your second comment within a comment, that the Spirit will do the rest, gives the impression, that the believer should just let the Spirit do it in the first place, and put your feet up and drink some ice tea and just relax. No need to get off of that comfy chair . :D

 

[Drew]

Well, thats an interesting concept. Just do not worry about it. And your second comment within a comment, that the Spirit will do the rest, gives the impression, that the believer should just let the Spirit do it in the first place, and put your feet up and drink some ice tea and just relax. No need to get off of that comfy chair . :D

If you do not like the general idea, perhaps you should take it up with the originator - Paul.

My point is that the good works that will acquit the believer on the last day are generated by the Spirit, not fundamentally by moral self-effort. Again, this not my idea - I shamelessly copied it from the guy who wrote these words:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,...

Your model cannot accomodate the clear sense of this text. And so you deform the meaning into something the context, not to mention the very rules of language, do not allow you to do.

I do not intend to suggest that persisting in faith is easy. But Paul says what he says - in some mysterious way, the Spirit is at work in the lives who truthfully profess "Jesus is Lord" to conform them into the image of the Son.

Oooops - I admit I also stole that idea from Paul too.

There is a sense in which I am admittedly less "creative" theologically than you - I simply take everything Paul writes as inspired scripture and parrot it back to the readers.

You, of course, are far more "creative" in your reading.

 

[Mysteryman]

Well, thats an interesting concept. Just do not worry about it. And your second comment within a comment, that the Spirit will do the rest, gives the impression, that the believer should just let the Spirit do it in the first place, and put your feet up and drink some ice tea and just relax. No need to get off of that comfy chair . :D

If you do not like the general idea, perhaps you should take it up with the originator - Paul.

My point is that the good works that will acquit the believer on the last day are generated by the Spirit, not fundamentally by moral self-effort. Again, this not my idea - I shamelessly copied it from the guy who wrote these words:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,...

Your model cannot accomodate the clear sense of this text. And so you deform the meaning into something the context, not to mention the very rules of language, do not allow you to do.

I do not intend to suggest that persisting in faith is easy. But Paul says what he says - in some mysterious way, the Spirit is at work in the lives who truthfully profess "Jesus is Lord" to conform them into the image of the Son.

Oooops - I admit I also stole that idea from Paul too.

There is a sense in which I am admittedly less "creative" theologically than you - I simply take everything Paul writes as inspired scripture and parrot it back to the readers.

You, of course, are far more "creative" in your reading.

I like to be creative in what I type/write. But I never try and change what someone else has written, especially the Word of God. Now, here is where we differ. I do not believe, that the translation , as written, supports the very words of God written by Paul. Throughout time, the texts and the translators are very guilty of many things. One of those things, is to make scriptures seem to say what they wanted it to say. Moving whole words even within the context of a given comment. This is something that is very evident, and only a blind man can not see this.

Translators as well as text copiers, were never to add nor take away from what came before they got their paws on it. However, because of the sin nature of mankind, they continually altered the written Word of God. In so much as, it takes one's walk in the Holy Spirit to resolve all the misguided changes within the texts and manuscripts and translations. I truely believe, this is where you are lacking, and have become deceived into believing something that is totally erroneous.

Now, that is my take on this, and I am sure that you do not agree with me. However, that is your privilege.

I will share this with you, which also comes from the scritpures - II Corinth. 3:3 - "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God : not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart"

This is why the Word states so plain and clearly - >

Romans 10:9 and 10

9) - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"

10) - "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness ; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"

Bless

 

[Drew]

Now, here is where we differ. I do not believe, that the translation , as written, supports the very words of God written by Paul. Throughout time, the texts and the translators are very guilty of many things. One of those things, is to make scriptures seem to say what they wanted it to say.

Yes, but what actual evidence do you have for this extreme claim?

Let's be clear here, you have to be committing to one of the following two exceedingly improbable scenarios:

1. The Greek manuscripts reflect what Paul wrote, but you know better than all these Biblical scholars how to properly translate the Greek.

2. The Greek manuscripts do not reflect what Paul originally wrote.

If you go with (1), you are setting yourself above all these Bible scholars re how to translate the Greek. Do you realize how improbable that is?

If you go with (2), you are effectively saying that you somehow know that Paul's orginal words are not in the best manuscripts. How would you know this MM? Why has this knowledge escaped all these Bible scholars?

You are really setting forward an implausible position here.

 

[Drew]

Translators as well as text copiers, were never to add nor take away from what came before they got their paws on it. However, because of the sin nature of mankind, they continually altered the written Word of God.

Do you have any evidence at all to support this extraordinary claim?

Do you not understand how thinking this way enables anyone to dismiss any text they do not like as "altered"?