the trinity is an enigma. so is a lot of other things in the bible.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
The Charismatic Church movement
- Thread starter Kathi
- Start date
Tony Hyman
Member
I believe they don't want to be tied down with traditional Institutional Church or Body of Christ "rules" regarding the administration and management of the Local Church "ekklesia" ie the vine John 15:5 where all believers are part of Christ but each has different roles which are supposed to be "servants" in submission to each other Ephesians 5:21.
Human nature being what it is , we find the abuse of positions which causes a clergy- laity class structure which was not Christ's intention nor the Letters from Paul the specific local congregations regarding Pastoral Care ,Titus and 1 and 2 Timothy.
To me the instructions from Paul are perfect for the management of the "Church" as a nice pen/kraal where God's flock are taught and protected by the good shepherds who are entrusted with he welfare of the flock under their charge.
"Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.Be shepherds of the church of God 28 I know that after I leave , savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.Acts 20:23 NIV.
So getting all funkie and breaking Scriptural rules and norms under new buzzwords might draw a quantity of so called believers to any gathering , other than a local ecclesia or body of Christ , but whether we can speak of quality spiritual growth in terms of the "vine" John 15:5 is debatable.It boils down to how effectively Christ's instructions regarding the Body is effectively carried out by the Body as a whole in the local church.
Here then a wikipedia url on Emerging Church beliefshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church
And then, we have Jesus' other instructions, whereby we are not to be studious little pew sitters, protected by a leader. But are, instead, to be taking the gospel out into those dangerous neighborhoods around us.
Tony Hyman
Member
Spot on Willie this is where the "mere passenger" enjoying the entertaining sermon also has another aspect in John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit.- fruit that will last.Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name."
This would apply to any Body of Christ in the existing traditional Church.One dose not need to start a special movement .All believers are disciples and this should reflect in the ordinary daily habits of the Believer ie at work/home or wherever he may be.His or her Christian Image should draw non-believers to the "vine" (the local church family).
The Church precinct per se no matter how it looks according to the tastes of a particular "ekklesia" is their concern. And if a nice looking building is used because the Body works hard and can afford it, why not?
A local church could be a tent or under a tree .But that's a matter of choice or financial circumstances(IMO).
This would apply to any Body of Christ in the existing traditional Church.One dose not need to start a special movement .All believers are disciples and this should reflect in the ordinary daily habits of the Believer ie at work/home or wherever he may be.His or her Christian Image should draw non-believers to the "vine" (the local church family).
The Church precinct per se no matter how it looks according to the tastes of a particular "ekklesia" is their concern. And if a nice looking building is used because the Body works hard and can afford it, why not?
A local church could be a tent or under a tree .But that's a matter of choice or financial circumstances(IMO).
Believer ie at work/home or wherever he may be.His or her Christian Image should draw non-believers to the "vine" (the local church family).
So the vine we abide in is the local church family, rather than Christ?
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. John 15:4
We are able to produce fruit because we remain connected in relationship to Jesus Christ, and His life giving Spirit.
... Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
...from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:16
Now I believe we are to edify each other as well as help and give to those in need. we teach each other, but we abide in Christ so that His Life flows into us, causing us to grow up into His image and likeness.
JLB
Sadly, because we trend to get so comfortable in our church meetings, it seems that often the only way to effectively finally begin working for God is to break away from the stagnant, controlling chains of "organizational" conformation, and finding others of like mind, start SOMETHING, even if it does end up being called, "a movement." Some people just will not leave the safety they feel in their pews behind stained glass. About the best you may see is someone writing a check that helps others do the work. Necessary, no doubt.... but I suspect not really all God wants from us.
th1b.taylor
Member
Boy, so true! I was called out of my first Church Family and have had to move twice since that time because of stagnation. And when I was on the Pulpit Committee a couple of years back, six of them wanted an old Pastor that, in the first interview, admitted he knew not what his wife would want to do but that as soon as she convinced Corporate to move her to California, he would be gone and that the only reason he was applying for our church because we were in the country and still close enough to Houston for her to commute.
I did not pray for God to change their minds to the young Pastorally Trained young man I, only, was ready to vote for, I prayed for a vision if I was wrong. Ẃe met every Tuesday and the Sunday before the vote the other six wanted to hear both of them preach and they, without me, my choice, heard both preach and when we voted it was unanimous for our First Time Pastor, the young man.
I, my wife and my daughter were ready to move our membership again because they were ready to go into stagnation and we wish it to never be. I have probably ruined our young Pastor because we have become fast buds and he listens to this weird old fossil but I still feel free to move i9n new directions with God and for my family, that is a necessity.
Ok. When is there no more use for tongues?
IMHO at the end of time (at judgement) we will be made fit for eternity / heaven. I realize there are differing opinions. If we have continued to trust in the shed blood of Christ, the final things will be finished and the lambs book of life will be opened.
Kathi usually has this at the bottom of her posts.
I Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive andremain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Add this to that: I Corinthians. 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
And-
I Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Down to the last second the work is being finished.
In heaven tongues will not be needed like here. I see through a glass darkly, but a glimmer is seen.
If we say the resurrection is past already, we unsettle people. If we say we have no sin, we are liars.
Charismatics deal with doctrine more than some. They try and work with all the seven churches of Revelation (IMHO why they embrace more denominations with the walls broken down)
Repent- accept Jesus as savior- be baptized in Holy Spirit. Father- Son- Spirit. Relationships.
eddif
IMHO at the end of time (at judgement) we will be made fit for eternity / heaven. I realize there are differing opinions. If we have continued to trust in the shed blood of Christ, the final things will be finished and the lambs book of life will be opened.
Kathi usually has this at the bottom of her posts.
I Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive andremain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Add this to that: I Corinthians. 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
And-
I Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Down to the last second the work is being finished.
In heaven tongues will not be needed like here. I see through a glass darkly, but a glimmer is seen.
If we say the resurrection is past already, we unsettle people. If we say we have no sin, we are liars.
Charismatics deal with doctrine more than some. They try and work with all the seven churches of Revelation (IMHO why they embrace more denominations with the walls broken down)
Repent- accept Jesus as savior- be baptized in Holy Spirit. Father- Son- Spirit. Relationships.
eddif
Prophecy~~the ability to tell the future, to get an unbelievers attention. Now that we have the complete writings. All the information we have to present on salvation and how to have a relationship with God is recorded in the scriptures. Our words from scriptures motivate the unbeliever and get his attention.
........
Prophecy may be a little broader than just future.
I Corinthians 14:24-26
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Prophecy may be, but not limited to:
Future
Wonderfull works of God
Secrets of men's hearts
Correct use of scripture
These may be revealed through spiritual gifts (psalm, a doctrine, a revelation, an interpretation). Prophetic singing kind of blows my mind (sing with the spirit)
I Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
eddif
........
Prophecy may be a little broader than just future.
I Corinthians 14:24-26
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Prophecy may be, but not limited to:
Future
Wonderfull works of God
Secrets of men's hearts
Correct use of scripture
These may be revealed through spiritual gifts (psalm, a doctrine, a revelation, an interpretation). Prophetic singing kind of blows my mind (sing with the spirit)
I Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
eddif
Malachi
Member
If tongues (glossais = language) -- supernaturally spoken foreign languages -- have not ceased, someone should have provided us with definite, objective, incontrovertible documentary/audio/visual evidence that Pentecostal/Charismatic missionaries are actually exercising this supernatural gift, and interpreters are proving without the shadow of a doubt that people are exercising this genuine gift within the churches today. What is needed is clear objective evidence (as courts required).
Not a single Christian would mind speaking a foreign language supernaturally, effortlessly, and fluently to minister to the Chinese, or Indians, or Albanians, or what have you. The truth is that these languages are having to be painfully learned. The truth also is, that you will not see this objective evidence, therefore the claim shifts to "prayer language" and "angelic language" etc. which is not at all what Scripture shows as "tongues" (an archaic way of saying "languages"). The honest admission that genuine tongues have ceased is yet to be made from the proponents of tongues.
As to the above passage (1 Cor 13:8-10), there is deliberate eisegesis in introducing "the perfection of Christ" into this passage. The context does not allow it, but who cares? "Since only Christ is perfect, and He hasn't come, therefore tongues are valid". You can repeat till you are blue in the face that "perfect" (v. 10 KJV ) is more appropriately "complete" (Gk teleios) and "complete" speaks of a complete canon of Scripture (just as "perfect" in 2 Tim 3:17 speaks of a "complete" or mature Christian), because all three gifts which would cease (prophecy, tongues, knowledge) are really direct supernatural revelations from God. Once the Bible (revelations from God) was complete there would be absolutely no need for these gifts, and God already told us through Paul. It is only in the early 20th century that false "tongues" were revived (apart from the Montanists).
th1b.taylor
Member
LOL
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:28
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:2
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 1 Corinthians 14:14-15
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; Mark 16:15-17
JLB
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:2
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 1 Corinthians 14:14-15
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; Mark 16:15-17
JLB
Languages. Are they the reality or temporary shadows, to be broken down later? Languages came to keep people from building a tower.
Once people enter into a desire / reality for a New Jerusalem from above, then our earthly language barrier / wall may cease. I actually do not know.
Abraham did not look for an earthly city, but he looked for a city whose builder and maker was God. Hebrews 11:10
Do we look to the natural, or the supernatural? Do we look first to the supernatural / spiritual, and then to the natural? First the natural then the spiritual.
The gift of tongues seems to come second (after babel). Then interpretation comes after tongues. Tongues and interpretation are both from a spiritual source. Supernatural removal of the language wall? Right now I have no complete idea. I do not by nature think like God. I am a redneck from Mississippi, and limited.
Charismatics IMHO seek wall removal. Are they perfect? No.
eddif
Once people enter into a desire / reality for a New Jerusalem from above, then our earthly language barrier / wall may cease. I actually do not know.
Abraham did not look for an earthly city, but he looked for a city whose builder and maker was God. Hebrews 11:10
Do we look to the natural, or the supernatural? Do we look first to the supernatural / spiritual, and then to the natural? First the natural then the spiritual.
The gift of tongues seems to come second (after babel). Then interpretation comes after tongues. Tongues and interpretation are both from a spiritual source. Supernatural removal of the language wall? Right now I have no complete idea. I do not by nature think like God. I am a redneck from Mississippi, and limited.
Charismatics IMHO seek wall removal. Are they perfect? No.
eddif
Sounds like good thinking.
tinykitten
Member
Sure enough. I would suggest all the rest of the 1 Corinthians chapter 14 and starting with verse 27 I'd say is worthy of supporting verse 39.
And especially important I think is this: 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
I was surfing the channels last night and happened on a Donnie Swaggart sermon. He started jabbering in what he thought people would hear as "tongues" and yet it was during what they had issued as an altar call for anointing with oil. And this well after a man started calling out a prophecy related to the Holy Spirit being present there. This man was in the pews and the cameras had to seek him out. But there he was booming out these words prior to the start of the sermon.
Who knew what Donnie Swaggart was saying? Just as T.D. Jakes speaks in tongues the same sentence every single time. But no one knows what they're saying. To hear it, at least for me, feels false. And according to Paul it is so without someone there to interpret. Lacking that these men should remain silent.
tinykitten
Member
No, it doesn't change the scripture in verse 39. Those truths simply clarify the truth of verse 39.