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The Charismatic Church movement

Let me try and add a little background. This letter is written to mostly Gentiles. They have heard wizards:
Isaiah 8:19
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

They (the Corinthian Gentiles) did not have the oracles of God like the Jewish people did, and are having to be taught about spiritual gifts. They did not read about Daniel giving an interpretation of a message written on the wall.

Gentile history allows gibberish with no true knowledge of what is being said . Mantras were assigned without knowing a true God message. We look at the passage with Jewish mindset; knowing to expect an interpretation should follow. The Gentiles are getting new I information (new to them).

Enter where 1st grade level information is taught to adults and think this is stupid -they should know this information. You might draw all sorts of speculations. When you find out they are all head injury persons (with memory loss ) you begin to understand. Without background some see I Corinthians as a warning against NT spirituals.

When we read the true gift of tongues edifies the person, should we not believe? The Gentile had his mantra that would never edify anyone . Five wizards might mutter for hours with no edification (I suppose - I was not there). Gentiles are not being warned about NT spiritual tongues / spirituals they are being warned about:
Their former pagan heritage.
I Corinthians 12:1
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

Carried away into pagan worship.

The instructions (in I Corinthians) are to develop true charismatic Corinthians, and not to warn the churches about the dangers of NT spirituals.

Way to wordy. Mississippi folks need their hand and facial aids.

eddif
 
tinykitten said:
Sure enough. I would suggest all the rest of the 1 Corinthians chapter 14 and starting with verse 27 I'd say is worthy of supporting verse 39.
And especially important I think is this: 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
- -
But no one knows what they're saying. To hear it, at least for me, feels false. And according to Paul it is so without someone there to interpret. Lacking that these men should remain silent.
Click to expand...

Because it is false. Most of what is witnessed in charismatic churches today is just the entertainment of familiar spirits.

Indeed.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

The reality of charismania is that it is seldom if ever along the guidelines received. I've witnessed the practice on very rare occasions as prescribed by Paul above, maybe 2 or 3 times in 3 plus decades of faith and it usually followed on the ground of good solid teaching from the pulpit and multiple (2 or 3 elders, not counting the pastor's) oversight. Anyone who steps onto that ground needs interpretation, oversight and sound judgment of what is said after the fact. This all goes on anymore, mostly unchecked by any.

And many thousands of times it's just some blowhard leaders manipulating the sheep for cash. And another many thousands of times with FALSE spirits spreading their lying nets. On these latter basis, I reject every piece of mumbo jumbo for what it is. When you do hear it from the participants in the service, it is very often someone channeling a Mary spirit or someone dishing out their warnings of the forthcoming destruction of everyone who doesn't cotton up to their spiel. The classic IF you do this THEN I will do this, and IF not, THEN kabam, you're cooked meat. (I guess they call that edification?) I particularly dislike tongues with interpretation or prophecy done in old school KJV english with thee's and ye's. Really? Sure there ain't just a reverb in your head from reading KJV scriptures?

I've also seen roving bands of various (prophets with personal agendas) move into the charismatic sects with the sole intentions of disruption and intents on subjugation to their sect at the expense of the members.

Follow the guidelines, build up the body of the faithful therein OR maybe much better to keep it private or at home.

I think we'd all be shocked if there was genuine practice. It could be very interesting and edifying. I gave up that particular search. Arena flakey.

Pity, really.
 
The scriptures we have been examining seem to imply tongues is for public use. If there is no interpreter then tongues turns private for the individual.

Church tradition seems to promote keeping tongues private till all is perfect. If we say we have no sin we are liars. The resurrection has not passed yet. We are still striving toward the high calling. If you go through the different translations you seem to have some translations under Law and some translations under Grace. Under Law you forbid. Under Grace you promote. Shall we pluck up the tares before the harvest? To forbid (IMHO) quenches some honest attempts by those who seek spirituals. Do I promote lukewarm spirituals? No. Am I perfect? No.

The love of God is twofold in direction. For some compassion works, but for others fear is needed. The Jude verses shows this.

I am a redneck from Mississippi. Why am I posting so much?

eddif
 
reba said:
As has been asked of you before Brother Mike and, this from an old Pentecostal, any one in the hospitals in your area?

1Co_14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Click to expand...

I am Sorry Reba,edited reba. I am coming back late on this. could you ask the question again please? I am sure there are lots of folks in our Hospital, but I don't know the exact number.

jasonc said:
I warned you how anti-pentacostal this site is. ah the old Baptist doctrine of the when the word came.it wasn't put together for at least one hundred years after the death of John.
Click to expand...

There are a few running around here that have no clue. The pentecoastal church has not exactly helped draw in the more traditional denominations. I mean if I walk in a church and folks are rolling on the floor calling it God, that concerns me.
Another big Pentecoastal branch is the Apostolic folk and their doctrine is scary.
The 4 square church almost worship Amiee who I suspect died of drug overdose and loved to chase men, though they deny it.

It's hard to sell a package when the wrapping paper is all torn and messed up.

Deborah13 said:
I am sorry people have made you feel that way. imo, they are wrong. I think they put an importance on tongues as an evidence that one is baptized in the Holy Spirit because in scripture when one received the baptism of Holy Spirit scripture says they spoke with tongues and praised God. I don't see it as a must but as evidence.
Click to expand...

Tongues is evidence, but just a small evidence. Paul called it "PRAYING" in the Spirit. That is tongues, and every believer needs this form of prayer.

Kathi said:
I see all of this as tongues having ceased.
Click to expand...

You need to leave the house and get to a real church. Then you might "SEE" different things, but walking by sight and experiences is being flesh ruled, we need to walk by the things not seen.
It's always believe you recieve,................... Then it happens, not the other way around

Jesse said:
Do you think all believers should have this gift?
Click to expand...

All the believers can have the gift. Paul said it's praying in spirit, that is tongues and all believer have a right to pray this way. It's so easy to get this.

Also, rich folks going to rich churchs and if your not rich you don't feel welcome is a statement not backed by any facts. The SDA have tons of poor folks attending and bring more money in th
reba said:
As has been asked of you before Brother Mike and, this from an old Pentecostal, any one in the hospitals in your area?

1Co_14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Click to expand...

I am Sorry Reba, I keep getting banned months at a time. I am coming back late on this. could you ask the question again please? I am sure there are lots of folks in our Hospital, but I don't know the exact number.

jasonc said:
I warned you how anti-pentacostal this site is. ah the old Baptist doctrine of the when the word came.it wasn't put together for at least one hundred years after the death of John.
Click to expand...

There are a few running around here that have no clue. The pentecoastal church has not exactly helped draw in the more traditional denominations. I mean if I walk in a church and folks are rolling on the floor calling it God, that concerns me.
Another big Pentecoastal branch is the Apostolic folk and their doctrine is scary.
The 4 square church almost worship Amiee who I suspect died of drug overdose and loved to chase men, though they deny it.

It's hard to sell a package when the wrapping paper is all torn and messed up.

Deborah13 said:
I am sorry people have made you feel that way. imo, they are wrong. I think they put an importance on tongues as an evidence that one is baptized in the Holy Spirit because in scripture when one received the baptism of Holy Spirit scripture says they spoke with tongues and praised God. I don't see it as a must but as evidence.
Click to expand...

Tongues is evidence, but just a small evidence. Paul called it "PRAYING" in the Spirit. That is tongues, and every believer needs this form of prayer.

Kathi said:
I see all of this as tongues having ceased.
Click to expand...

You need to leave the house and get to a real church. Then you might "SEE" different things, but walking by sight and experiences is being flesh ruled, we need to walk by the things not seen.
It's always believe you recieve,................... Then it happens, not the other way around

Jesse said:
Do you think all believers should have this gift?
Click to expand...

All the believers can have the gift. Paul said it's praying in spirit, that is tongues and all believer have a right to pray this way. It's so easy to get this.

Also, rich folks going to rich churchs and if your not rich you don't feel welcome is a statement not backed by any facts. The SDA have tons of poor folks attending and bring more money in than any mainstream denomination at 2 billion a year. I think you need to check your facts again.


smaller said:
Because it is false. Most of what is witnessed in charismatic churches today is just the entertainment of familiar spirits.

Indeed.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

The reality of charismania is that it is seldom if ever along the guidelines received. I've witnessed the practice on very rare occasions as prescribed by Paul above, maybe 2 or 3 times in 3 plus decades of faith and it usually followed on the ground of good solid teaching from the pulpit and multiple (2 or 3 elders, not counting the pastor's) oversight.
Click to expand...

So those of us that speak in tongues as I pray in tongues a lot are entertaining familair spirits? Really?

It's nobody's fault you can't be led to go to the right church that follows what Paul said. God don't send people who are humble and seeking truth to junk churches. The willfully ignorant end up in those full of pride.

Also if prophecy is given in a KJV like way, it's because that is the Word in them. It's what they studied and the Holy Spirit brings to rememberance the things He has said. Scripture comes up as it was sown in by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that and if you don't like it, take it up with him.

Sure lots to catch up on and read, but I read everything, ignoring some of the more unlearned post.

Good to be back.
 
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reba said:
No need for me to get into a battle with ya.. :) I was pleased to see you on the who is here roster... :)
Click to expand...

Blessings back Sister!!!

Eugene said:
And it's great to see you back Brother Mike. I have missed some of our scriptural exchanges in Christ Jesus.
:wave2
Click to expand...

[Do not use the open boards for grievances against moderator action.] Glad to see you Brother, your a blessing also.

Tonges:
As a believer, if we as God's children see something in scripture that we don't have, then we need to seek and believe that we get it. Lots of things in scripture take maturity and time to get understanding which God gives in abundance if we humble ourselves under his Mighty Hand and just say "I see it in your Word Father, I would like that, how do I get that."

If I decided that something in scripture is not for me, then God won't bother me with it. Many going to Hell feel the same way about Jesus. NOT FOR ME!!!! They don't have to go to hell, and we don't have to come short any promise to us.

Tongues is praying in the spirit (Man) by the Help of the Holy Spirit. Our spirit-man prays with the Holy Spirit.

1Co 14:14-16 kjva 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Paul called tongues a form of PRAY from out spirit, with the help of the Holy Spirit. No believer should want to be void of any form of praying. Our spirit needs fed, and our belief systems comes from our spirit. Praying in the natural is very limited.

So, since tongues is Prayer then to say tongues is passed away, or I don't need tongues is to say prayer needs to be limited now (Because I am such a wiz super genious at praying) and I don't need no help from the Holy Spirit when I pray, I can do it on my own.

Rom 8:26-27 kjva 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

How do we overcome this limitation of not knowing what to pray for, or knowing the whole situation behind something?

What Paul said, Tongues is praying in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit always helps us pray in line with the will of God, and praying in the Spirit also helps make intercessions for all us and the saints. God know all the plans of the enemy, and all things that are set to trip us up. Praying in tongues (praying in the Holy Spirit) stops those things and helps us and others.

Every believer should want that in their life.............. something is very wrong if a believer does not want that in their life.

Tongues is praying in the Spirit, we should want this tool.

Tongues builds us up. It's not for others, but us.

Jud 1:20 kjva But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

If your a super christain, you may never get down or frustrated. I am not a super know it all Christain, I need help from the Holy Spirit constantly. Tongues build up the faith in you, Paul said he that speaks in a unknown tongue edifiys himself. We need to stay built up and full of joy in the Spirit to help others. If our cups are empty, we are not much good to others.

So, since Paul called Tongues praying in the Spirit..................... Any believer would be foolish to discount this. If it's Prayer, we need to know and learn about this and seek God, expecting to operate in this form of prayer.

Tongues is for all believers. All believers are called to interceed and pray for others. It's not really a public gift, but it sure helps us, and changes things in the physical realm in mighty ways. Some we see, some we don't.
 
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Brother Mike said:
Tongues is praying in the spirit (Man) by the Help of the Holy Spirit. Our spirit-man prays with the Holy Spirit.

1Co 14:14-16 kjva 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Paul called tongues a form of PRAY from out spirit, with the help of the Holy Spirit. No believer should want to be void of any form of praying. Our spirit needs fed, and our belief systems comes from our spirit. Praying in the natural is very limited.

So, since tongues is Prayer then to say tongues is passed away, or I don't need tongues is to say prayer needs to be limited now (Because I am such a wiz super genious at praying) and I don't need no help from the Holy Spirit when I pray, I can do it on my own.
Click to expand...
I heard a pastor/family counselor asked, Do you pray in the spirit? When he said no, I asked him why not? He said he didn't need to because he knew what he should pray for. So Paul prayed in the spirit but he didn't need to? :eek
 
Jewish persons, in Acts , seem to have no problem understanding tongues as a biblical sign. They knew tongues and dreams needed to be intrepreted. Babolyn kings depended on Jewish Daniel .

Corinthian Gentiles had a totally different background. Their pagan ancestors accepted muttering without seeking a God type answer. The Gentiles did not have the oracles of God in their heritage.

It appears to me some are seeing only one side of the story. It is really hard to work through the differences in background.

eddif
 
If I do not get this post in before another person posts, just tie it back to my last recent post.

You do not , and probably should not tell a Jewish thinking person that tongues do not have to be intrepreted. They know that prophecy can be tongues plus interpretation. They have it . They might even freak if they see mistakes made.
So
Here is one group in this discussion.

Contrasted against the Gentile group that might revert to their former no interpretation way.
Here is probably the other group in the discussion

Since the middle wall is broken down in Christ Jesus, we can actually discuss this . There is a
little rubble to deal with, but let us not build walls. When the one new man functions, some of these issues are resolved.

I lived 12 years in John's baptism (no Jesus). I was an OT (original testament) freak. So although a gentile; I have quite an extensive experience under the law. But we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Denominational tendances can seperate us if we are not careful.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
Brother Mike said:
So, since tongues is Prayer then to say tongues is passed away, or I don't need tongues is to say prayer needs to be limited now (Because I am such a wiz super genious at praying) and I don't need no help from the Holy Spirit when I pray, I can do it on my own.
Click to expand...


Great Word!!!
 
Romans 8:25
But if we hope for that we see not,then do we with patience wait forit.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The spirit led life appears to give God the credit for change. Our concept of our carnal self can be overrated. Can not be uttered? Intrepret groans?

eddif
 
The next time true tongues will be spoken,is when the Elect are delivered up to satan,during the tribulation........

Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake,, for a testimony against them."


Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them."

Mark 13:10 "And the gospel must first be published among all nations."


Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost [Spirit]."

When this time comes into being in the very near future, it will not be the elect of God that does the speaking, but the Holy Spirit speaking in and through the mouths of His elect. Every one of these individuals will be delivered before these false councils before the final day of this earth age. This is why Peter would say to the people in Acts 2, on Pentecost day; "This is that which was spoken of by Joel the Prophet."

Tongues is a language, not the babble going on today.............
 
Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

We wrestle (IMHO) now against evil. Paul seemed to be in a battle. I can see how the evil day could be thought future. I can also see that today a battle rages.

Jesus purchased our armour with nails, thorns, nakedness, and a spear in His side.

eddif
 
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