The Charismatic Movement

[destiny]

From what I've personally observed through the years,we've got two extremes out there that are widely accepted as biblical in the mainstream:

The lying signs and wonders of the charismatics, and those that have a form of godliness but deny the spiritual aspect and power of God in working through His people. One is filled with deception and hype, the other is powerless, dead, predominately carnal.. and is usually filled with the heresy of Calvinism.
One abuses the gifts of the spirit while the other denies them completely.

BTW.. the charismatics haven't been obsessed with tongues in years. They've been obsessed with anything "prophetic" for at least the past 10 years, but there could be some pockets of tongue obsession left out there somewhere.

I believe in the gifts of the spirit.

 

[Free]

The main point I want to make is that we need to be very careful and perhaps even avoid stating with certainty that it is that way or it is this way, that that position is wrong and this position is correct.

Although I disagreed with some of that previous quote, the one very real point in that quote is that there is great spiritual danger when "things of the Spirit" go unchecked, as they very often do. The charismatic movement has caused a great deal of spiritual and emotional grief for many people. Too many in the charismatic movement are too quick to jump on the latest spiritual craze and in so doing they open themselves up to all sorts of deceit and spiritual danger.

 

[destiny]

My post wasn't personal in any way towards anyone here. I was just posting my observations in general of the extremes out there. It really takes coming to the word of God with no preconceived man-caused bias, and allowing it to show us what is plainly written. That, and walking with Jesus in relationship and spending a lot of time with Him.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

it seems like it is the nature of deception to intervene on real moves, revivals, manifestations of Gods power after they are doing a holy work and coming in to infiltrate and sift and see who can be led away or made to use things for the flesh etc....

This is the thing, we have to be scriptural. We have to walk in faith in GOD not faith in the devil. and we have to walk HOLY.

TOO many people fear the devil more instead of God and so they will stay away from anything spiritual in any form whether it is scriptural or not and just say it is of the devil and warn everyone not to be decieved.- What they do not realize is that they have been decieved because the enemy not only likes to lead people who are spiritual back into the flesh but he likes to make an open show of those he has decieved so that people will hold them up as the reason not do be spiritual or in faith.

For instance tongues- healing- prophesy- miracles(of the kingdom) are all scriptural and our faith can be in GOD in these areas, but the devil will raise up false prophets, false healers, televangelists who get a big face, name and all the sheep's money and then everytime people hear " healing" they see the big rich face of a liar wolf in sheeps clothing and then they only associate healing with wolves and all their faith in the form of fear goes in the devils pocket. same with tongues etc etc etc....

The devil makes things BIG and SHOWY and FLAUNTING and FLATTERING so that when you hear or read the REAL work of God and the power of His Spirit all you can think of is the LIARS and then you do not exhibit faith towards God for what is real. So the devil gets two in his hand, those liars whom he got to use spiritual things for the flesh and for gain in this world- and those who now reject the truth of Gods power and miracles and kingdom because of those liars.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are very real and they are for the body of Christ and our working together but so many of us have believed the tradition that it is gone- or have feared the enemy so that we do not allow the Holy Spirit to work in us for the good of the body of Christ and we walk around trying to use worldly carnal means for everything becasue everyone has convinced everyone else that spiritual things are bad.


Praying in tongues is biblical and you in no way have to " clear your mind" for it to happen.If you fear that then ask the Lord for interpretation also.

Then you have the people who want to have miracles that are not scriptural and do not actually deliver from anything but are fleshly and they are becomming a large number and these turn others away from the truth also. But if we walk in Faith and remain holy before God and put to death our flesh daily and study to shew ourselves approved we need not fear anything but God and we will be able to walk in the Holy Ghost given to us from God and to reject all false spirits

 

[Boanerges]

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.




While I cannot speak for anyone else I can tell you by my experience and the Word of God :

The Body of Christ needs to spend more time loving each other than tearing each other down.

That the gifts and the five fold ministries are for today.
The while I believe we need all nine gifts of the Spirit the nine fruits of the Spirit are the mark of spiritual maturity ( as demonstrated by the church at Corinth).


Speaking in tongues cannot be a pre-requisite for salvation and the oil never goes where the blood has not been applied.

There are many members in the body of Christ each with their own giftings and callings. Each local body of believers seems to have it's own distinctive flavor and areas where they tend to focus. They also vary in levels of maturity (individually and corporately) as was demonstrated in Paul's Epistles.

We need each and every part of the Body working together to fulfill His call.

You should not judge everyone by a few.


Again, these are just my views and I certainly respect the rights of others to their own opinions.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

 

[Vic C.]

That the gifts and the five fold ministries are for today.

May I ask a question?

Are you willing to go against God and continue to build up a foundation that was completed some 1,900 + years ago? (Ephesians 2:20)

Also, Paul had serious issues with the Corinth church and their misuse of their spiritual gifts and it appears we are ignoring all the warnings and repeating history... at the peril of those doing the ignoring.

 

[Boanerges]

That the gifts and the five fold ministries are for today.

May I ask a question?

Are you willing to go against God and continue to build up a foundation that was completed some 1,900 + years ago? (Ephesians 2:20)
Also, Paul had serious issues with the Corinth church and their misuse of their spiritual gifts and it appears we are ignoring all the warnings and repeating history... at the peril of those doing the ignoring.

I simply believe your interpretation is on error. The gifts of the Spirit should not be confused with the foundation which is Christ. Nor is there any conflict with the fivefold ministry which God gave to the church ( see Eph 4:11 and 1Co 12:28 ) Ephesians 2:20 says nothing about the cessation of the gifts. In fact Paul declares this fivefold government of the body two chapters after your misunderstood interpretation of Eph 2:20.
If this is the biblical government God gave us (and it is) then all who do not follow this are in error.
No that does not mean they are not saved it just means they have missed the boat on that issue.

Let me ask you a question, do you believe we have Apostles, miracles and Prophets today? The Bible declares we certainly are to have these and if the church is not seeing them she should search her heart.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
It is only when the "till" of verse 13 is fulfilled the that the churhc has no need of these offices;
if the church is walking in complete unity of faith
if the church is complete and mature to the measure of the fullness of Christ ?
Then and only then will their job be complete.

Christ gave the Gifts of the Spirit to the church as He thought she needed them, who am I to argue with Him?

About the foundation- that foundation is plainly Jesus Christ and He is the very One who sent the Holy Spirit to lead us guide us, empower us.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
We are plainly to build upon the foundation which is Christ. All that which is done at the leading of and in the power of the Holy Spirit is gold, silver and precious stones worthy to be laid at the Master's feet.
What is done in self will and strength is wood, hay and stubble, such works of the flesh will be consumed by His Holy fire
Paul did indeed admonish the Church at Corinth, he and I are in agreement that spiritual gifts do not mean spiritual maturity.

Why some people are so offended by what God is doing in and through His people has always puzzled me. He does not love one more than another simply because one has the faith to receive and walk in the gifts that are the birthright of the church.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Jesus Christ though God walked as a man and was our perfect example. He spoke only what He heard the Father say, He did only the works He saw His Father doing and that all in the power of the Holy Spirit. His example was for the church who was to also walk in complete submission to and total dependence on the Holy Spirit.
If we do this then indeed the life of the vine shall permeate and flow through these earthen vessels. We will indeed see the power of God and He alone will be glorified.

Christians do not follow signs but biblically signs follow Christians

Those my friend are my views. I respect yours but cannot and will not deny the reality of the Holy Spirit, His work in and through both my life and the lives of others I have witnessed.

 

[jasoncran]

we have mods on this forum who are charismatic, btw the man that you listen vic, kp ohannon of gospel for asia would be considered charismatic. I have heard him talk about miracles and healings, and praying in the holy ghost.

i have been a pentacostal for yrs, and i attend a more conservative demonation. The christian and missionary alliance. yes they are phonies out there and charismatics tend to rush head long into crazes.

 

[watchman F]

The more I study it the phonier it appears to be. I thought it was probably a good thing. I mean what's wrong with claiming spiritual gifts are not a thing of the past? But these guys saying that everyone has to speak in tongues or they have not received the Spirit are full of it.

I think you are not understanding what they are saying. Everyone receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved, but then one can be baptized into the Holy Spirit which is different from ''receiving'' the Holy Spirit. What they are saying is you are not baptized in the Spirit unless you speak in tongues. Which I do not fully agree with, but most charismatics are good God loving people.

 

[watchman F]

The Charismatic movement? Been there, done that. I prefer the old-time, mainline Pentecostal denominations---the Cleveland, Tennessee, Church of God; the Pentecostal Holiness; Apostolic, etc., to the Charismatic madness. I allegedly received the alleged 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' and spoke in tongues in a charismatic Southern Baptist Church. But, as a RC at the time, I don't think I was even saved at the time. Needless to say, I attended some charismatic Episcopal Masses and charismatic Catholic prayer groups, but I never really got 'in' to it. Tongues did nothing for me, so I stopped prayong in tongues, and asked the Lord that if it wasn't real, then to not let me speak in tongues again, and I haven't. Big time heresies in the Charismatic movement. I would advise anyone to avoid charismatism, as well as the old-line Pentecostals who participate in it. I oppose the 'ordination' of women, and this is a big deal in the movement. Now, everybody is an 'Apostle' or a 'Prophetess,' 'Bishop', 'Archbishop,' and breaking out into liturgical vestments(and wearing them incorrectly). I say, just stay away.

You do realize Pentecostals speak in tongues dont you?

 

[jasoncran]

:armed :scared :fight

 

[watchman F]

[quote="-HUMBLED-":123ghufl]

What specifically do you mean by new as it relates to the charismatic movement? The gifts of the spirit were alive and well with the first disciples. So at least in that aspect there is nothing new there.

When did the "charismatic movement" begin?[/quote:123ghufl]In the upper room around 33 A.D.?

 

[watchman F]

[quote="Rick W":3lmweit8]I must ask though. Is there an interpreter present every time when people speak in tongues?

Well at my former church this usually was the case. However I know that recently it happened to me personally as I was out for a walk by myself and was praying to God and asking him very intimate questions about my life and I remember addressing the Holy Spirit directly and crying out to Him when I suddenly began to speak in tongues. This lasted for about 25 minutes or so. But I was by myself and did not understand what I said, but it was a feeling overwhelming love I felt from God telling me that He was still with me. It was amazing. And believe me, I seldom had spoken in tongues up to that point. I don't even attend a charismatic church anymore.[/quote:3lmweit8]This is a good thing humbled and do not let anyone tell you different. God did a good thing in you edifying you through His own Spirit.
1st Corinthians 14
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

That experience was for your own self edification, and God delighted in it.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

boabgeres :amen :yes

 

[Free]

That the gifts and the five fold ministries are for today.

May I ask a question?

Are you willing to go against God and continue to build up a foundation that was completed some 1,900 + years ago? (Ephesians 2:20)

Also, Paul had serious issues with the Corinth church and their misuse of their spiritual gifts and it appears we are ignoring all the warnings and repeating history... at the peril of those doing the ignoring.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

That the gifts and the five fold ministries are for today.

May I ask a question?

Are you willing to go against God and continue to build up a foundation that was completed some 1,900 + years ago? (Ephesians 2:20)

Also, Paul had serious issues with the Corinth church and their misuse of their spiritual gifts and it appears we are ignoring all the warnings and repeating history... at the peril of those doing the ignoring.

Eph 2:19 ¶ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Gifts of the Spirit are about us GROWING as a body, as the temple of God because we are the habitation of the Spirit.- Did we stop being the body of Christ?If the gifts are gone then we have ceased to be the Body of Christ because it is by the gifts that we are made by the Spirit to be the mouth, eye, ear, hand,foot. It is by the Spirit that we are given gifts for the edification and good of all the rest of the body.- There is no wonder we have little unity today in the body, most of the body is refusing to act as the part of the body God has called them to be.

1Cr 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.


1Cr 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.


1Cr 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.


1Cr 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

*the MANIFESTATION of the Spirit is given to EVERY MAN to profit WITHAL.

1Cr 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;


1Cr 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;


1Cr 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:


1Cr 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


1Cr 12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.


1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


1Cr 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.


1Cr 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?


1Cr 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?


1Cr 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling?


1Cr 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

*God has set members as it pleases HIM by the different manifesations of the Spirit through the gifts.

1Cr 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body?


1Cr 12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body.


1Cr 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

* The eye cannot say to the hand i have no need of thee, but this is what is happening today! members of the same body are saying to the brethern who may be the hand or mouth or foot " we dont need you we dont need tongues, we dont need prophesy we dont need wisdom"

1Cr 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:


1Cr 12:23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.


1Cr 12:24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:


1Cr 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another.


1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.


1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


*It is true that paul had to tell them about using gifts wrongly, but He did not ever say " hey because you use them wrongly they should be thrown away". In fact in the midst of them using them wrong and Him instucting them on doing it correctly he said this to them:

1Cr 14:1 ¶ Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.

We know that tongues was something used out of order alot but he still said this:
1Cr 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

He would that they ALL speak with tongues, but rather that they prophecy because that is for the edification of all. He did not say " hey you guys use tongues wrong i wish no one did it".

And finally Paul commands this- which so many disobey today

1Cr 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

 

[Free]

^ And yet, that doesn't address the point made in Vic's post regarding the obvious abuse of gifts in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles. There are no Apostles (in the sense of the office or position such as the original Apostles) but we are all apostles, that is, one's who are sent.

 

[Vic C.]

Free, I know we differentiate on our understanding of some aspects of spiritual gifts, but I thank you for understanding my last post. :yes Some may have misconstrued and believe I am saying all gifts have ceased! Certainly mot, but I do believe some have because they have served their purpose in the first century.

I also believe in some form of apostolic succession and I do believe in miracles.

When the Bible clearly states this:

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I don't try to rationalize it, making it say something it doesn't say.

It clearly says the foundation is what the household of God is built upon. Would any right-minded builder lay up the rest of the building before the foundation is completed?

GodspromisesRyes, you quoted from chs. 12 and 14 but skipped ch. 13. Why is that?
________________________________________________________________________

[quote="Rick W":35gwmg9r]When did the "charismatic movement" begin?

In the upper room around 33 A.D.?[/quote:35gwmg9r]
Oh I serious doubt that! It's all connected to the relatively new-fangled and false Latter Rain movement.

 

[Free]

Free, I know we differentiate on our understanding of some aspects of spiritual gifts, but I thank you for understanding my last post. :yes Some may have misconstrued and believe I am saying all gifts have ceased! Certainly mot, but I do believe some have because they have served their purpose in the first century.

We may not differ as much anymore as my beliefs about much are currently in flux. Having grown up in the Pentecostal church I have witnessed much, and it is precisely much of what I have seen in recent times in the Pentecostalism that has caused me to step back and re-evaluate most of what I believed regarding these issues--the abuse of tongues being the most prevalent.

It's funny how one can be in such services for so long and participate and then one day begin to realize that much of what goes on is in direct contradiction of what Paul mentions in 1 Cor 14. Having said that, I think that Pentecostalism has fallen far from it's roots.

As an aside, lol at "mot." It's actually a real word--"a pithy or witty saying" according to webster.com. I just got learned up.

I also believe in some form of apostolic succession and I do believe in miracles.

Interesting...the apostolic succession part.

 

[Boanerges]

Charismata = grace gifts.
Can you imagine trying to walk in this world without the tools Christ gave us? I cannot.