[_ Old Earth _] The Christianity In Science

[Gary]

No one likes to respond to a person who never contributes substance beyond a youtube video, and then makes such ridiculous assertions.

I understand.

 

[Free]

Show me from the scriptures that Jesus lacked knowledge.

Read the gospels. There are many passages that support it. I don't have the time at the moment.

The fact that this is even being questioned is very surprising.

I'm just looking for one. Surely it can't be that difficult to throw out a verse or two. If in fact they do exist.

No, it isn't difficult at all. It just takes a willingness to read what the Bible says. This is from a quick scan:

Mat 24:36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

Joh 5:19 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
...
Joh 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Joh 7:15 The Jews therefore marveled, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
Joh 7:16 So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.

Joh 8:28 So Jesus said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

Joh 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment--what to say and what to speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

(All from the ESV).

Again, I am surprised that this was even questioned. This is very basic Christian theology.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

No, it isn't difficult at all. It just takes a willingness to read what the Bible says. This is from a quick scan:

Mat 24:36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

Joh 5:19 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
...
Joh 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Joh 7:15 The Jews therefore marveled, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
Joh 7:16 So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.

Joh 8:28 So Jesus said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

Joh 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment--what to say and what to speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

(All from the ESV).

Again, I am surprised that this was even questioned. This is very basic Christian theology.

Truly human and Truly God.

 

[Free]

Truly human and Truly God.

Exactly. Explained in John 1:1-3,14 and then again in the key passage, Phil 2:5-8.

 

[Free]

And all that was to highlight a very serious problem which I also pointed out not very long ago in another thread--simply posting Scripture doesn't mean anything. Nothing is said by posting Scripture if no explanation is given, and even then, it doesn't mean that the poster has understood what was said.

Now that better context has been given to the passage of John 1:3, we can see that quoting it to support the notion that Jesus knew everything, including everything about science, while he was the God-man on earth, is clearly false.

 

[Gary]

Again, I am surprised that this was even questioned. This is very basic Christian theology.

If the theology is so basic, how is it you didn't notice that those verses are not examples of His lack of knowledge, but rather, they give witness to His submission to the Father. He gives credit where credit is due.

 

[Free]

If the theology is so basic, how is it you didn't notice that those verses are not examples of His lack of knowledge, but rather, they give witness to His submission to the Father. He gives credit where credit is due.

The first verse I gave shows that he didn't know something, which is all is needed to put your argument to rest. If there was one thing he didn't know, then it stands to reason that there were other things he didn't know. The rest of the passages all tie in together, showing that everything Jesus said and did was what the Father told him to say and do. He was completely reliant upon the Father. This very clearly shows that he simply could not have known everything, otherwise he would have had no need to rely on the Father.

 

[Rick W]

Acts 2:22 says that God performed these mighty works through Jesus, so that negates that point.

This sounds like Docetism, where Jesus only appeared to be human.

The two natures of Christ is something you should study more.

Your analysis of me is way off target and your advise I find an insulting. I was discipled by a Christian Bishop in Salt Lake City before and during my undertaking to witness to Mormons for 6 years. Knowing who Christ is was paramount in that town. And knew Sandra and Jerrod Tanner, founders of Lighthouse Ministries quite well before Jerrod died in October of 2006, the year I moved back to Pa.

"Truly human and Truly God."
Of course. The way I was reading your posts it sounded as if Christ had no attribute of deity. He was human and He is God. The "and" in conjunctive of course. He was both. He did not lose His nature of the Word of God but became flesh losing nothing of His original nature.

 

[Rick W]

He was completely reliant upon the Father. This very clearly shows that he simply could not have known everything, otherwise he would have had no need to rely on the Father.

I can know and still be obedient to another to speak what I'm supposed to speak. Just because someone else wrote what I'm to say, such as a PowerPoint presentation (in my position I have done many presentations and still do) doesn't mean I'm ignorant of what I'm talking about or anything else for that matter. I know the material, I know more than is presented but I adhere to the guidelines of what I'm to present.
He was reliant on the authority of the Father to speak. He would not speak without that authority. It didn't mean He didn't know already what He was talking about. And more.

 

[Rick W]

Mat 24:36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

Living by faith for the future was paramount to Christ's ministry. We see this in Gethsemane, "Not by my will but by thine".

And again:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word knew all things from the beginning for the Word was God.

Science is the tool by which scientists gather data of Creation and make their conclusions. And the Word created that from which the data is gathered.
How could the Word have been God, made all things and be ignorant of what He created?
Or are we to believe that we, as mere men, have to come to know more of Creation than Christ did?

We are actually debating that very thing.

/edit
After thinking about this for a bit I find the debate something I don't care to participate in any longer. I will not argue this in defense of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior against those who claim to have come to know more than Jesus Christ himself in any respect or subject what-so-ever.

 

[Gary]

The first verse I gave shows that he didn't know something, which is all is needed to put your argument to rest. If there was one thing he didn't know, then it stands to reason that there were other things he didn't know. The rest of the passages all tie in together, showing that everything Jesus said and did was what the Father told him to say and do. He was completely reliant upon the Father. This very clearly shows that he simply could not have known everything, otherwise he would have had no need to rely on the Father.

Yes, but it doesn't show that He lacked knowledge of science.

Luke 2
40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
<snip>
46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.
<snip>
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.


Do you think maybe in the 30 years prior to His meeting with John, He had a little education? It sure sounds like it.
.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I think this thread is going pretty good.
I wanted to talk about the Christianity is science and we haven't strayed from that.
I'm surprised that people question the full deity of Jesus.
But at least we are talking.
One cannot say that Jesus lacked knowledge and still say he was fully God, for God knows all things.

There's something hidden here in people's thoughts.
Somehow, it seems, people can't believe that Jesus in the flesh is still fully God.
It is a hard teaching and must be accepted by faith.

The Bible is sometimes science and sometimes history, but mainly it is revealing God himself to us in our spirit.
We must believe by faith.
Whatever we think about things, if it does not line up with the Word of God, then we must accept God's Word by faith.
That's the way we were made.
That's what we are told to do.

In the end of this thread, people should be edified that God is in science, that he controls science, that he made science, that he knows science better than we will ever know it.

Otherwise, we are putting our knowledge equal to or above God.

 

[jasonc]

if jesus has lost his knowledge of how he had made things. kindly explain to me that genesis one isn't literal and why jesus said to the jews then who believe that to be literal as they as I have repeated based their feasts on the way the days are mentioned. next day starts at sundown,and also given that the calendar year at chabad.org is what ever it says when you go to it. why is jesus lying to the jews when he says things.

mark 10:6

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female

man wasn't at the beginning of creation. he was on the scene when? it wasn't within days of the sun's formation or the earths per science. far from it. within a few hundred thousand years. so that is either a clear lie from God the father, or Jesus. so which God is lying?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I think this thread is going pretty good.
I wanted to talk about the Christianity is science and we haven't strayed from that.
I'm surprised that people question the full deity of Jesus.
But at least we are talking.

No one is questioning the Deity of Christ.

Truly human and Truly God.

I acknowledge the Deity and Humanity of Christ. .

Where the disagreement is, is how the Divine Nature of Jesus operated with the Human Nature of Jesus. As he has two distinct natures. I am simply arguing that Jesus didn't just appear to be a man, but was actually 100% human.

This is historical Christianity 101.

One cannot say that Jesus lacked knowledge and still say he was fully God, for God knows all things.

What we're saying is that Jesus as a man was limited in power and knowledge. These are not true for him in his Divine Nature.

There's something hidden here in people's thoughts.
Somehow, it seems, people can't believe that Jesus in the flesh is still fully God.
It is a hard teaching and must be accepted by faith.

Do you believe that Jesus only appeared to be human, but inwardly in his thoughts etc. he was 100% God? If Jesus is not fully human in your concept then this is the heresy of Docetism.

The Bible is sometimes science and sometimes history, but mainly it is revealing God himself to us in our spirit.
We must believe by faith.
Whatever we think about things, if it does not line up with the Word of God, then we must accept God's Word by faith.
That's the way we were made.
That's what we are told to do.

In the end of this thread, people should be edified that God is in science, that he controls science, that he made science, that he knows science better than we will ever know it.

Otherwise, we are putting our knowledge equal to or above God.

I don't believe I have an infallible interpretation of Scripture, but I do know that it is very unlikely that the original authors intended to convey scientific ideas, as science is a relatively new process. It is a human process, in that it is our attempt as a species, to understand the universe around us in an objective sense.

You don't feel comfortable thinking about the universe without bringing God into the conversation on any given topic, I can understand that, but I can also say that it wouldn't make an effective scientist. The totality of nature bespeaks the beauty of God, but as an intelligent being, he designed this universe to be intelligible on it's own. He did this by setting up the natural laws, etc.

Hence, I believe that theology and science should be different and separate subjects.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No one is questioning the Deity of Christ.



Where the disagreement is, is how the Divine Nature of Jesus operated with the Human Nature of Jesus. As he has two distinct natures. I am simply arguing that Jesus didn't just appear to be a man, but was actually 100% human.

This is historical Christianity 101.


What we're saying is that Jesus as a man was limited in power and knowledge. These are not true for him in his Divine Nature.


Do you believe that Jesus only appeared to be human, but inwardly in his thoughts etc. he was 100% God? If Jesus is not fully human in your concept then this is the heresy of Docetism.


I don't believe I have an infallible interpretation of Scripture, but I do know that it is very unlikely that the original authors intended to convey scientific ideas, as science is a relatively new process. It is a human process, in that it is our attempt as a species, to understand the universe around us in an objective sense.

You don't feel comfortable thinking about the universe without bringing God into the conversation on any given topic, I can understand that, but I can also say that it wouldn't make an effective scientist. The totality of nature bespeaks the beauty of God, but as an intelligent being, he designed this universe to be intelligible on it's own. He did this by setting up the natural laws, etc.

Hence, I believe that theology and science should be different and separate subjects.

However, this forum is called Christianity and science.
I don't believe it was meant to be any thing different.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

However, this forum is called Christianity and science.
I don't believe it was meant to be any thing different.

That's fine, but I am free to share my own viewpoint on the matter am I not?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That's fine, but I am free to share my own viewpoint on the matter am I not?

Yes, you and I both.
They should call us the incompatibles!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yes, you and I both.
They should call us the incompatibles!

I tend to disagree a bit with the people on this site, though there are also many there that I see eye to eye with on some of the tertiary issues. When it comes to the essentials, I doubt there would be much difference at all, except perhaps in the way certain views are expressed and emphasized.

 

[Barbarian]

In science, one cannot describe movement without a reference point. Motion is a relative thing, and Morely-Michaelson showed there is no privileged frame of reference. The question of whether or not the Sun moves, depends on that reference point. So it's meaningless scientifically as is the Biblical assertion that the Earth will not move.

To anyone willing to spend a little quite time out in nature apart from man's world, the evidence of God is easily found in those "invisible things, clearly seen" that St. Paul told us about.

Every now and then, it comes to me during my morning walks with Bagel down in the woods by the pond. And it's both humbling and uplifting

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

In science, one cannot describe movement without a reference point. Motion is a relative thing, and Morely-Michaelson showed there is no privileged frame of reference. The question of whether or not the Sun moves, depends on that reference point. So it's meaningless scientifically as is the Biblical assertion that the Earth will not move.

I don't quite agree with you.
I believe we simply do not understand how everything works, but God does.