What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The Church is NOT Israel

Malachi

Malachi

Member
Most mainline Protestant churches teach that the Church has replaced Israel, ans Israel has no right to the land of Israel.
Covenant Theology is the dominant theological system of most mainline Protestant churches and maintains that God has replaced the Jewish people with the church. On the basis of two or three “covenants” that are found nowhere in the Bible, it claims that Christians are now God’s chosen people and that the Jewish people have no claim to the land of Israel.
Click to expand...
http://www.foi.org/free-resources/article/facts-and-flaws-covenant-theology-part-2/

Far too many Christians are not very familiar with all the prophecies pertaining to Israel in the Tanach (OT). Therefore it is necessary for all believers to carefully examine the Old Testament Scriptures and see for themselves that God is not finished with Israel, that there will be "the time of Jacob's trouble", that at the Second Coming of Christ He wll gather all the Jews of that time and bring them to Israel, cause them to mourn, repent, be saved, and be restored as the kingdom of Israel under Christ. Then there will be a Millennium.

Please note that the Lord did not directly respond to this question, but instead postponed the answer (Acts 1:6-9):
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
 
Malachi said:
Most mainline Protestant churches teach that the Church has replaced Israel, ans Israel has no right to the land of Israel.

http://www.foi.org/free-resources/article/facts-and-flaws-covenant-theology-part-2/

Far too many Christians are not very familiar with all the prophecies pertaining to Israel in the Tanach (OT). Therefore it is necessary for all believers to carefully examine the Old Testament Scriptures and see for themselves that God is not finished with Israel, that there will be "the time of Jacob's trouble", that at the Second Coming of Christ He wll gather all the Jews of that time and bring them to Israel, cause them to mourn, repent, be saved, and be restored as the kingdom of Israel under Christ. Then there will be a Millennium.

Please note that the Lord did not directly respond to this question, but instead postponed the answer (Acts 1:6-9):
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Click to expand...
You are correct. Most churches put the church starting at pentecost simply because the word "church" is there. Our church (the body of Christ) started with Paul.

Everything at pentecost was according to Old Testament prophecy. Everybody who repented and was baptized was getting ready to go through the time of Jacobs trouble. Selling all that they had. But that time did not come. God placed that on hold, Saved Paul and instead if dispensing wrath, He dispensed grace. This time is not prophecied about, but was kept secret since before the world began.
 
I don't believe in futurism.however,since in a jew.I know the history of modern isreal.the claimants to state were those that never left. The appealed to the United nations for recognition prior the war of 48.England refuse to honor the agreenest tween the Arabs and the jews.then Arabs change their minds and the war of 1948 began.the Hebrews then made the claim based on history.
 
jasonc said:
I don't believe in futurism.however,since in a jew.I know the history of modern isreal.the claimants to state were those that never left
Click to expand...
What we must address is the question of the apostles. It was a legitimate question based upon the Tanach. So when was the "kingdom" of Israel every restored under Christ? If that has not happened, then it must happen in the future. Not secular, Zionist, unbelieving Israel (as of today) but redeemed and restored Israel as revealed in the Nebiim.
 
ok, jesus did he tell the apostles believed that the are never ever going to be part of isreal? if not then why does futurism say that those sons of daughters of them that believed? like me and peters kids(yes peter was married and likely had sons and daughters). that is the problem. all 12 of them are no longer part of isreal. whatever lawful status of the father is what the sons get. if they get no land then sons don't either. yet the 12 sit in the land judging. it would makes sense that all the jews that are their sons that believed would also be there too. that is isreal. not some well jesus comes back removes or transforms all the jews into the church that believed prior to his return, and makes isreal out of those that denied him at his coming. which isn't supportable.
 
jasonc said:
ok, jesus did he tell the apostles believed that the are never ever going to be part of isreal? if not then why does futurism say that those sons of daughters of them that believed? like me and peters kids(yes peter was married and likely had sons and daughters). that is the problem. all 12 of them are no longer part of isreal. whatever lawful status of the father is what the sons get. if they get no land then sons don't either. yet the 12 sit in the land judging. it would makes sense that all the jews that are their sons that believed would also be there too. that is isreal. not some well jesus comes back removes or transforms all the jews into the church that believed prior to his return, and makes isreal out of those that denied him at his coming. which isn't supportable.
Click to expand...
Israel is still getting the land. You think that because Peter and the 12 have died, They are now void of the promise to sit on 12 thrones? At christ return, they will be resurrected and sit on 12 thrones. At Christ return, all the Old Testament saints and the remnant With Peter will be raised and enter into the Kingdom. The promises have yet to be fulfilled, but they will be one day. Israel will be the nation of nations with Christ as king.
 
Dispensationalists say that the church was started on the day of Pentecost.

But the Bible says that ISRAEL WAS THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS. In speaking of Moses, Stephen said this in Acts 8:37-- This is he, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.

Israel is the Root of the New Testament Church

The scriptures clearly teach that the church did not start on the day of Pentecost. It already existed. In Abraham, God called out a people and a church for his name. Israel is the root of the New Testament Church. The mystery hidden from the foundation of the world was that the Gentile should be graffed into that root. The Gentiles are not a separate tree.

Those Jews who abide in unbelief are broken off from their own tree through their unbelief. There is not special provision for them in the "tribulation period" (incidentally, the Bible does not teach that Christians will escape the great tribulation. It teaches the opposite and says for us to pray that our flight not be in the winter or on the sabbath day). All they have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and they will be immediately graffed back into their own tree. In speaking of Israel, Paul says this is Romans 11-- I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, AND WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. [We are all in ONE tree.]

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature INTO a good olive tree: how much more shall these,
which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? [There is only ONE tree. We get in by faith in the blood of Jesus.]

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be COME IN.

This is a plain, untwisted reading of the holy scriptures. For other witnesses see I Thessalonians 2:14-16, Colossians 3:11, Galatians 3:26-29. There is something out today called, "the Hebrew roots of Christianity," or "Hebrew roots," this is also a heresy--that is not what is being referred to here.

http://biblicalscholarship.net/israelvs.htm
 
AmbassadorofChrist said:
Israel is still getting the land. You think that because Peter and the 12 have died, They are now void of the promise to sit on 12 thrones? At christ return, they will be resurrected and sit on 12 thrones. At Christ return, all the Old Testament saints and the remnant With Peter will be raised and enter into the Kingdom. The promises have yet to be fulfilled, but they will be one day. Israel will be the nation of nations with Christ as king.
Click to expand...
yet often in the millennium, there is that chapter where it says the prince shall atone for his people. a kingdom shall not just include isreal. unless you dare argue that jesus kingdom has no authority after the borders of isreal.
 
I really don't understand this thing about the Jews being special simply because they are Jews. They had their time. God tried to work with them, but they blew it. They "cut off" their messiah and so God miraculously cut them off. When Jesus died he said "it is finished" while at the same time he miraculously tore in two the thick curtain which seperated the "holy of holies" (where the Jews presumed God lived) from the rest of the world.

To say that God still has some special plan or purpose specifically for people with the correct DNA completely misses the point of the new values Jesus taught about an invisible Kingdom, a spirit which flows where ever it wants and humble, sincere followers who worship in "spirit and in truth".

There is no more temple worship or sacrifice and even if there was, it would be in contradiction to what Jesus taught. The Revelation talks about a "new Jerusalem" come down out of Heaven. In Rev 11:8 the angel refers to the physical city of Jerusalem as "sodom". Just as there is a spiritual Jerusalem, so there will be a spiritual Israel. The word "Israel" literally means something like "God prevails" but is more generally used to refer to "god's people". In other words, "God's people" are those who follow God; not those who have the correct dna or the correct religious formula.

But lets say a Jew DOES convert to Christianity. Would they keep their Jewish identity and name? What purpose would that serve? If they want to follow Christ, let them be Christians. Technically it really shouldn't matter what we call ourselves, so even the title of "Jew" shouldn't matter, but why hold to the name when it's likely to confuse people? Why not just forsake the name in preference for something much clearer? Is there some legitimate reason to hold to the name?
 
Deborah13 said:
Why do you believe God is going to fulfill that covenant again?
Click to expand...
Not "again" but "finally". Because God always keeps His promises, and He is not finished with Israel nor the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6-8).
6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The Lord said (Mt 24:14) that the Gospel must be preached in all the world "AND THEN SHALL THE END COME". Well, the end has not come as yet, and the future redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel will be established only after Armageddon (Rev 20:1-6).
 
john darling said:
I really don't understand this thing about the Jews being special simply because they are Jews.
Click to expand...
Not "because they are Jews" but "in spite of the fact that they are Jews and have rebelled and disobeyed God".

It all goes back to God's immutable covenant with Abraham, confirmed to both Isaac and Jacob. God -- for His own good reasons -- chose Israel to be a "kingdom of priests" and to also bring Messiah out of Israel. But He also promised to give Abraham and his descendants the land between the Nile and the Euphrates for an everlasting possession (that is probably ten times the area of modern Israel). He als promised to establish His presence with redeemed and restored Israel for eternity. Therefore while the Church will be in the New Jerusalem for eternity, the kingdom of Israel will be on earth with a redeemed and restored Jerusalem for eternity. There are numerous prophecies which confirm this (e.g. Ezek 37:21-28):

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
 
Malachi said:
Not "because they are Jews" but "in spite of the fact that they are Jews and have rebelled and disobeyed God".

It all goes back to God's immutable covenant with Abraham, confirmed to both Isaac and Jacob. God -- for His own good reasons -- chose Israel to be a "kingdom of priests" and to also bring Messiah out of Israel. But He also promised to give Abraham and his descendants the land between the Nile and the Euphrates for an everlasting possession (that is probably ten times the area of modern Israel). He als promised to establish His presence with redeemed and restored Israel for eternity. Therefore while the Church will be in the New Jerusalem for eternity, the kingdom of Israel will be on earth with a redeemed and restored Jerusalem for eternity. There are numerous prophecies which confirm this (e.g. Ezek 37:21-28):

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup
 
n2thelight said:
srael is the Root of the New Testament Church

The scriptures clearly teach that the church did not start on the day of Pentecost. It already existed. In Abraham, God called out a people and a church for his name. Israel is the root of the New Testament Church. The mystery hidden from the foundation of the world was that the Gentile should be graffed into that root. The Gentiles are not a separate tree.

Those Jews who abide in unbelief are broken off from their own tree through their unbelief. There is not special provision for them in the "tribulation period" (incidentally, the Bible does not teach that Christians will escape the great tribulation. It teaches the opposite and says for us to pray that our flight not be in the winter or on the sabbath day). All they have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and they will be immediately graffed back into their own tree. In speaking of Israel, Paul says this is Romans 11-- I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, AND WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. [We are all in ONE tree.]

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature INTO a good olive tree: how much more shall these,
which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? [There is only ONE tree. We get in by faith in the blood of Jesus.]

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be COME IN.

This is a plain, untwisted reading of the holy scriptures. For other witnesses see I Thessalonians 2:14-16, Colossians 3:11, Galatians 3:26-29. There is something out today called, "the Hebrew roots of Christianity," or "Hebrew roots," this is also a heresy--that is not what is being referred to here.
Click to expand...


Yes plain.

I would add that the root that supports is Christ, and the Covenant He made with Abraham, before He became flesh.

Abraham was the first member of the ecclesia, the Church, with the Covenant Maker [Christ] as the Head.

That is why paradise was named after Him. Abraham's Bosom.

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. Galatians 3:13-17

We, Gentiles who are in [covenant] with Christ Jesus, are now a part of the Commonwealth of Israel.

Israel has always been the Church, though not all Israel [Jews] are the True Israel [those in covenant with the True Israel, Who is Christ].


Israel, son of Issac was a Gentile. :bricks

And you shall answer and say before the Lord your God: 'My father was a Syrian, about to perish, and he went down to Egypt and dwelt there, few in number; and there he became a nation, great, mighty, and populous. Deuteronomy 26:5


JLB
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top