The Church reigning with Him on Earth.

[Nathan]

I believe some of the book of Revelation can be taken as literal. Keep in mind John was trying to explain to us things of Gods dimension.

Curiosity asking, how do you differentiate between the two when reading it?

 

[Eugene]

Would you consider those that John sees of the Church arriving in heaven, to be separate raptures as it were? To my understanding John sees the twenty-four elders with Jesus round about His throne in Rev 4:4, and the four beasts in the midst of, and round about Jesus' throne in Rev 4:6, and this is prior to the tribulation even beginning.

A second group are those of Rev 7:9 which are the Great Multitude which stand before the throne, and are caught up out of great tribulation according to Rev 7:14, and last are the one hundred and forty-four thousand of Rev 14:1 sometime near the middle of the week.

because when I read....Acts 1:11....This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”.....which describes Jesus' ascension..it doesn't sound like the return on the white horse.

I do not read of Jesus coming on a white horse for the Church. Instead His separate comings will all be as we read of in 1 Thes 4:16-17 for each group. What are the clouds? Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses . . .
In Act 1:9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him (Jesus) out of their sight. All paradise was there waiting for him that He had went and preached to.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

 

[Cygnus]

Curiosity asking, how do you differentiate between the two when reading it?

The same way you would differentiate other portions of the bible. Sometimes it's pretty obvious. When the bible said Jesus went here or there there's no reason for it to not be literal. When the bible says Jesus is a gate we do not picture Jesus as being made of wood and hanging on a door frame.....but we know Jesus isn't that literal gate but a gate in a different context. Some of Revelation has to be looked at in that fashion.
Are the two witnesses literal? I think there is no reason to think they won't be....can an angel stand on the sun? We can't understand that so we write it off as not literal and make it symbolic.

There's much more to say on this topic...but this is not the forum.

 

[Cygnus]

I do not read of Jesus coming on a white horse for the Church. Instead His separate comings will all be as we read of in 1 Thes 4:16-17 for each group. What are the clouds? Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses . . .
In Act 1:9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him (Jesus) out of their sight. All paradise was there waiting for him that He had went and preached to.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

I could be wrong, but right now I see Jesus returning on a cloud inwhich Jesus was taken away with no horses mentioned.... then returning on a horse. Sounds like two separate events.

 

[WIP]

When the bible says Jesus is a gate we do not picture Jesus as being made of wood and hanging on a door frame.....but we know Jesus isn't that literal gate but a gate in a different context.

I'm not so sure. The definition of gate according to Webster includes a means of entrance or exit.

Jesus is the gate (the way). John 10:9 NKJV "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

 

[Cygnus]

I'm not so sure. The definition of gate according to Webster includes a means of entrance or exit.

Jesus is the gate (the way). John 10:9 NKJV "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

Yes, we should read the bible and undertand the term as it should be used. We know Jesus is not made of wood and hanging on a door frame.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

In reading Revelation we should remember that John wrote it and in Galatians 2:9 it is stated that James, Cephas, and John were apostles to the circumcision.

 

[Nathan]

dirtfarmer here

In reading Revelation we should remember that John wrote it and in Galatians 2:9 it is stated that James, Cephas, and John were apostles to the circumcision.

They were part of the same body, which means their roles were different, but the outcome is the same.

My left hand does things that my right hand doesn't, but they both are used to reach the same outcome.

 

[dirtfarmer]

They were part of the same body, which means their roles were different, but the outcome is the same.

My left hand does things that my right hand doesn't, but they both are used to reach the same outcome.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

What or is there a difference between the Gospel of the circumcision and the Gospel of the uncircumcision?

 

[Eugene]

What or is there a difference between the Gospel of the circumcision and the Gospel of the uncircumcision?

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here also, but maybe the circumcision thought they could lose their salvation since they were so indoctrinated into law keeping, and had to be dealt with such as those of Rom 14:1 said to be weak in faith that didn't eat certain things. If we look further into it we find that Paul had to correct Peter in Gal 2:11-13. It's possible that God knew those of the circumcision were just not ready for the fulfilled gospel that was revealed to Paul only in Col 1:25.

Could Peter have preached the revealed gospel Paul received from our risen Lord (Gal 1:8)? We have to realize there were things hidden even from the other apostles at that time.
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: There were Jews with Peter in Act 10:44, While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

And then even Peter made this comment about Paul’s epistles in 2Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, and I reckon the circumcision were just not ready for it.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished (I suppose they had never knew that Gentiles were going to be saved), as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. (Something very new to them.)

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

What or is there a difference between the Gospel of the circumcision and the Gospel of the uncircumcision?

There is. Salvation is of the Jews, not Gentiles, so the difference is the good news to the Jews was Jesus is the Messiah. To the Gentiles, the good news is they were included in the redemption of Christ.

Jews natural branches, Gentiles grafted on. Other than that, no difference.

 

[JLB]

There are actuall two commings of Christ..so to speak.
The first is at the rapture where Jesus comes in the clouds the same way He left and a second coming on a white horse...which is not the way the bible describes Jesus as leaving during His ascension .

Acts 1:11....This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Here are the events that take place at the coming of the Lord.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• And the dead in Christ will rise first.
• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

All His people in heaven, who He brings with Him, and all His people on earth, who are alive and remain, will be caught up together.

• we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

That's all His people caught up together.

Once all His people are gathered together from all over the entire earth, and from all over heaven, they will be with Him, in the clouds, in the air.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

• And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Once all His people are gathered together, to be with Him, in the clouds and in the air, they will always be with Him, in which their are safe, and secure, and the destruction of the wicked will commence, because that's all that's left on earth, since all His people on earth, and all His people in heaven are with Him, in the clouds in the air.

The destruction of the wicked will include the lawless one, the false messiah, the man of sin.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

• whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

After His people are resurrected, and raptured, in which they are gathered together to be with Him, at His coming, He will personally destroy the antichrist, man of sin, lawless one, false messiah... at His coming; By the brightness of His coming.


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

Here are the events that take place at the coming of the Lord.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• And the dead in Christ will rise first.
• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

All His people in heaven, who He brings with Him, and all His people on earth, who are alive and remain, will be caught up together.

• we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

That's all His people caught up together.

Once all His people are gathered together from all over the entire earth, and from all over heaven, they will be with Him, in the clouds, in the air.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

• And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Once all His people are gathered together, to be with Him, in the clouds and in the air, they will always be with Him, in which their are safe, and secure, and the destruction of the wicked will commence, because that's all that's left on earth, since all His people on earth, and all His people in heaven are with Him, in the clouds in the air.

The destruction of the wicked will include the lawless one, the false messiah, the man of sin.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

• whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

After His people are resurrected, and raptured, in which they are gathered together to be with Him, at His coming, He will personally destroy the antichrist, man of sin, lawless one, false messiah... at His coming; By the brightness of His coming.


JLB

Thanks for the info.
I'll stick with the 2 return scenarios.

 

[Nathan]

Thanks for the info.
I'll stick with the 2 return scenarios.

I only post this to try to help you here. While we may see two different views of His coming again, we are told many times that it is just going to be one return. Even when Christ was asked about it He never spoke of two times He would return.

Hebrews 9:28 (ESV)
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Matthew 24
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[dirtfarmer]

There is. Salvation is of the Jews, not Gentiles, so the difference is the good news to the Jews was Jesus is the Messiah. To the Gentiles, the good news is they were included in the redemption of Christ.

Jews natural branches, Gentiles grafted on. Other than that, no difference.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Jesus as the messiah was an earthly kingdom thing. The disciples in Acts 1:6 asked the risen Christ; " Wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" is what Peter preached at first, but Paul preached" the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ". Do you believe there is a difference in those messages?

Was Abraham a Jew or a Gentile when God told him that through his descendants the world would be blessed? It wasn't until Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, that the earthly kingdom was established from his 12 sons. This is what Peter was referencing in Acts 1:6.

The Gentiles were not grafted into a branch, but were grafted into the root, Jesus Christ- Romans 10:18, " Boast not against the branches, But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." Paul understood Genesis 22:17; the difference between "the sands of the sea" and "the stars of heaven."

 

[Cygnus]

I only post this to try to help you here. While we may see two different views of His coming again, we are told many times that it is just going to be one return. Even when Christ was asked about it He never spoke of two times He would return.

Huh, now I thought JLB posted it.

.....anyway, Jesus didn't leave on a horse. You need to get past that. He ascended into the clouds not riding a horse. The next return will be with the clouds...not on a horse.
Place a horse at Christ ascention and you may have a point....

 

[reba]

Why is "His place" beneath the thrown of heaven ?

 

[Eugene]

Yes, and He will soon remove the wicked from this earth, and take His place on the Throne of David in Jerusalem.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne.

In Rev 4:1 John is told to come up “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” (Isn’t this in heaven?)
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. (Here Jesus receives His own throne, and it is in heaven. Why would He return to the earthly Jerusalem to rule for the thousand years?)
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Is this Jesus?)

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by Him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:

Please consider these following verses.
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched . .
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:4 . . .These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Of Israel)
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. (God’s throne is in heaven.)

When will Jesus come back to the earth as the lamp of the heavely Jerusalem?
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (When does this occur? after the millennium?)
Thanks.

 

[JLB]

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne.

In Rev 4:1 John is told to come up “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” (Isn’t this in heaven?)
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. (Here Jesus receives His own throne, and it is in heaven. Why would He return to the earthly Jerusalem to rule for the thousand years?)
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Is this Jesus?)

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by Him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:

Please consider these following verses.
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched . .
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:4 . . .These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Of Israel)
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. (God’s throne is in heaven.)

When will Jesus come back to the earth as the lamp of the heavely Jerusalem?
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (When does this occur? after the millennium?)
Thanks.

Please share with us the point you are making with these scriptures.


JLB

 

[Eugene]

Then He will take His place on His throne in Jerusalem, as King over the whole earth.

Yes, and He will soon remove the wicked from this earth, and take His place on the Throne of David in Jerusalem.

Please share with us the point you are making with these scriptures.

From your two previous posts shown as quotes above, I supposed that you were saying that Jesus is going to rule over the earth during the millennium from the earthly Jerusalem, and with the following post I was attempting to show why that I believe Jesus will rule from heaven instead.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (This could also be the word OVER the earth, because that is where Jesus and us will be in heaven.)
The following post is repeated here for clarity"

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne.
In Rev 4:1 John is told to come up “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” (Isn’t this in heaven?)
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. (Here Jesus receives His own throne, and it is in heaven. Why would He return to the earthly Jerusalem to rule for the thousand years?)
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Is this Jesus?)

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by Him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:

Please consider these following verses.
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched . .
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:4 . . .These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Of Israel)
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. (God’s throne is in heaven.)

When will Jesus come back to the earth as the lamp of the heavely Jerusalem?
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (When does this occur? after the millennium?)