The Church

[RichardBurger]

Many people interpreted the scriptures to have different meanings. This is why there are so many different church denominations and doctrines.

Is Christ divided? NO. Is the "SPIRITUAL CHURCH" divided? NO.

Is man's understanding divided? YES. Are church denominations, organized by men, divided? YES.

What is Religion? It is organized groups of people professing certain religious beliefs and having a hierarchy of leadership. The leadership determines their religious beliefs based upon their interpretation of their reference book writings (the Bible or similar book) and doctrine studies.

The Jewish religion consisted of ceremonies and rituals that people performed. The people had faith (trust) that by performing these ceremonies and rituals they were doing what God wanted them to do.

But there was/is a problem with this; ** ANYONE COULD (CAN) DO THEM **. They don't require a personal commitment of the heart. They don't require a repentant, humble heart. In fact, if you think about it, most all religions in the world teach ceremonies and rituals that people must perform in order to be right with God.

Jesus taught us that God is not pleased with ceremonies and rituals.
(Ps 40:6, Ps 51:16-17, Heb 10:5-6, Heb 10:10-12) God is pleased with a humble, repentant, trusting heart (like a child). Jesus taught us that He, Jesus, wants us to know that He is alive and sits at the right hand of God ready and wanting to hear our prayers (our conversation with Him in our hearts). We must come to Him in a spirit of humility, repentance, and faith (trust), in His love and His promises. He taught us that we must worship Him in the spirit (from the heart). He taught us that if we worship in the spirit He is faithful and will hear and keep us.

There are still those that teach ceremonies and rituals and there are still those that trust in them. However, people must have a personal relationship with Jesus so that, in the Day of Judgment, Jesus will not say depart from me, I never knew you. (John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own, NKJ). He will say this if they trusted in what they thought they could do in ceremonies and rituals to save them instead of going to Jesus in a personal relationship so that He can know and save them. But there are those that think a person can trust in both God and in what they can do. The Jewish nation was carried off into captivity because of this idea.

What is a Christian? A person who is personally trusting that God loves him and sent his son, Jesus Christ, into the world to die on a cross for his sins. A person that trusts God to save and keep him just as Abraham did. (Read Romans 4:1-8) A Christian is a person that has been reborn (filled) with God's Spirit "by God."

What is the Church? The Church is made up of Christians (see above).

John 4:20-24
20 "Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."
21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
(NKJ)

Matt 15:8
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
(NKJ)

The church has this in common with the Jewish Temple of the O.T. in that it is the dwelling place of God on earth. But it is contrasted with the Temple, a physical, tangible, building made of perishable materials. The church is a structure built of living stones. (spiritual house, 1 Peter 2:4-5)

Therefore, the Church is a spiritual entity and the head of the Church is Jesus Christ who gave his life for it. No man is to be considered as head of the Church. The Church's visibility in the world is shown through Christians, individually and as groups. It is not a religious organization, or building, or certain place. The Church exists within the hearts of Christians. Read LUKE, 17:20 "The Kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, Here it is, or there it is, because the kingdom of God "is" within you". God himself controls the Spiritual Church of Jesus Christ.

How can a person become a member of the true Spiritual Church? The answer is very simple. Place faith in what God has done for them.

Rom 10:9-13 ... (NIV)
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-- the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The church, which is His body;

Scripture Reading:    Ephesians 1:22, 23

Many Christians believe that every time the word "church" appears in Scripture, it refers to the same thing.  This thinking has led to much error and confusion.  The fact is, at least three can be distinguished in Scripture.

The first church we find in the Bible is "the church in the wilderness"  (Act 7: 38).  This was the Old Testament congregation of Israel.  Some would object to calling Israel a church, but this is exactly what the Holy Spirit calls her.  In fact, the Hebrew word for "congregation", found numerous times in the Old Testament, is equivalent to the Greek word for "church" (see Psalm 22:22 & Hebrews 2:12).  Yet, the Old Testament Israelite church is not the church of today.

The next church we read of in Scripture is yet future.  Christ spoke of it in Matthew 16:18 where Christ told Peter, "I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Gk. 'hades') shall not prevail against it." This church is still future, for it is begun with a resurrected people. The "gates of hades" is not a reference to Satan's forces, as many teach, but a reference to the entrance (and exit) of the place of the dead (cf. Isaiah 38:10 where "gates of the grave" is literally "the gates of sheol" - sheol being the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek hades).

The third church is the church of today. Paul calls it "the Church which is His body" (Ephesians 1:22, 23). His body is not a physical building located on earth. All true believers today are members of the church of His body, and it is the one true Church in this dispensation of grace. I am a member of this Church?

 

[A-Christian]

The next church we read of in Scripture is yet future. Christ spoke of it in Matthew 16:18 where Christ told Peter, "I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Gk. 'hades') shall not prevail against it." This church is still future, for it is begun with a resurrected people. The "gates of hades" is not a reference to Satan's forces, as many teach, but a reference to the entrance (and exit) of the place of the dead (cf. Isaiah 38:10 where "gates of the grave" is literally "the gates of sheol" - sheol being the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek hades).

You fall victim to the very thing you spoke against earlier in your post. Personal interpretation has put you on a wild ride.

Peace

 

[RichardBurger]

The next church we read of in Scripture is yet future. Christ spoke of it in Matthew 16:18 where Christ told Peter, "I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Gk. 'hades') shall not prevail against it." This church is still future, for it is begun with a resurrected people. The "gates of hades" is not a reference to Satan's forces, as many teach, but a reference to the entrance (and exit) of the place of the dead (cf. Isaiah 38:10 where "gates of the grave" is literally "the gates of sheol" - sheol being the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek hades).

You fall victim to the very thing you spoke against earlier in your post. Personal interpretation has put you on a wild ride.

Peace

Do you have a personal interpretation or do you rely on the interpretation of other men of religion.

I see you want to make this thread about Me. That is what forum writers do when they don't want to admit that a writer is correct. It looks like the interpreations of other men have put you on a wild ride.

As for me, Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would reveal the truth to me, and I have faith that He does.

 

[toddm]

Richard,

There seem to be a few implications w/ your rant here:

1) You seem to be mixing things up a bit here. Traditions in and of themselves are not what was condemned, it was the traditions w/ lack of sincerity - just going through the motions was what was condemnable. Jesus himself instructed his followers to practice traditions/rituals - baptism & the Lord's Supper. However, sincerity of heart was expected in both of these otherwise they become quite meaningless and a mockery.

2) You seem to be condemning any kind of church authority or leadership. Now, I certainly do not propose that we have a papal type authority that tells us what to believe, but God has instructed that His Church have leaders for the purpose of teaching, correcting, and training (1 Tim. 3, 2 Tim. 2:2, Titus 1,2 and so on). Even Paul exhorts Timothy to listen to the sound words that Paul had said (2 Tim. 1:13). In fact, most of Paul's letters are corrections! God has called people to shepherd His Church (pastors & elders), and we are commanded by Scripture to heed their instruction because they are called by God (Hebrews 13:17).

3) Private interpretation is not necessarily a bad thing, but it needs to be weighed. To say that YOUR interpretation is the right one and everyone else is wrong is quite arrogant and foolish, imo. God doesn't choose to only reveal the truth of His Word to 1 or 2 people. Though there are different views on the "unclear" areas of Scripture (non-essential doctrines), that shouldn't cause us to throw out all views and draft up a brand new one which nobody else sees in the text.

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard,

There seem to be a few implications w/ your rant here:

1) You seem to be mixing things up a bit here. Traditions in and of themselves are not what was condemned, it was the traditions w/ lack of sincerity - just going through the motions was what was condemnable. Jesus himself instructed his followers to practice traditions/rituals - baptism & the Lord's Supper. However, sincerity of heart was expected in both of these otherwise they become quite meaningless and a mockery.

2) You seem to be condemning any kind of church authority or leadership. Now, I certainly do not propose that we have a papal type authority that tells us what to believe, but God has instructed that His Church have leaders for the purpose of teaching, correcting, and training (1 Tim. 3, 2 Tim. 2:2, Titus 1,2 and so on). Even Paul exhorts Timothy to listen to the sound words that Paul had said (2 Tim. 1:13). In fact, most of Paul's letters are corrections! God has called people to shepherd His Church (pastors & elders), and we are commanded by Scripture to heed their instruction because they are called by God (Hebrews 13:17).

3) Private interpretation is not necessarily a bad thing, but it needs to be weighed. To say that YOUR interpretation is the right one and everyone else is wrong is quite arrogant and foolish, imo. God doesn't choose to only reveal the truth of His Word to 1 or 2 people. Though there are different views on the "unclear" areas of Scripture (non-essential doctrines), that shouldn't cause us to throw out all views and draft up a brand new one which nobody else sees in the text.

First of all I resent your saying that I am ranting.

Weighed by who? --- So my view is arragant, tell me, is your view established by men or God? Have you been taught it by men or God? I would also like to know if you think that the corporate view (which one?)is the one that saves a person or is salvation the work of God for the individual? Does God save the individual or the crowd? Wouldn't it be a shame if you follow the crowd and wind up in Hell? Authority figures can send you there too.

Every Christian religion that I know of says they have the correct doctrines and traditions. Which one will you follow after? How do you know which one is correct?

--- As for me, I will follow none of them. God reveals the truth to those that He wishes to know it for His purpose and that does not mean that it has to be seen by the many. It is the Holy Spirit that teaches the children of God.

 

[RichardBurger]

I cannot see how people can place their trust in a religious organization that is based upon that religious organization's interpretation of Bible scripture. Think about the time of Jesus Christ. There were all kinds of different beliefs. The Pharisees believed salvation was in the promises made to Abraham and by keeping the law. The Sadducees believed they had the truth and it denied the resurrection. Look at what Jesus said about them. They were blind, leading the blind, and the truth was not in them. The Catholic Church has religious leaders and they fleeced and tormented the illiterate people in the middle ages and seem to worship idols. The Muslims believe in the Islamic religion. The Jehovah Witness people have their interpretation of the Bible. The protestant denominations have their interpretation of the Bible. The point is that they disagreed in the meaning of religious writings and even today men disagree.

Am I really supposed to place my trust (faith) in a Religious organization's leadership and wisdom? Where I spend eternity depends upon where I place my trust.

. . . . . . . . . . Which one should I choose????
. . . . . . . . . . I will choose none of them.

I do not believe that Jesus Christ came to set up just another new and improved physical organized religion run by men who can deceive themselves? I, personally, don't think so since he said that the time will come, after his death, when man will not say, let us go here, or there, to worship God, for man will worship God from within his heart, in other words, a personal worship of God whose spirit will be living within the hearts of those who love him. The following scriptures support my conclusions. Notice, in verse 28 below, how the verse acknowledges that men are weak and that the Son has been perfected forever. He did not leave us in the hands of weak human (leaders and priests). He has become our "high priest" and we need no other.

Heb 7:25-28
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
(NKJ)

Men use human wisdom interpreting the Bible, or other religious books, to build up an organized system in which he can place the responsibility for his salvation. They usually include things that men have to do. Most people feel that if they, belong to the "right church or religious organization", go to the meetings, spend some time there, and try to live a good lifestyle they are okay with God. Their only relationship with God is through their religious organization and what they do. But God looks into the heart and he knows those that trust Him.

What then, do I trust in? Is it to be man's great ideas or my great works? No, it is not. I trust God's promise of salvation through Jesus Christ. It is God's gift to me. He holds me in his hands and nothing can pluck me out of His hands. He is my Father and I am his child. Because of His love, someday I will be with Him. I will love Him and he will love me throughout eternity. All praise and glory go to my Father in heaven and to His Son, Jesus Christ, who died on the cross to pay for my sins. Salvation is by faith (trust). Read Hebrews, chapter 11, verses 1 through 40 in the Bible.

 

[Elijah674]

Christ even divorced His very own Virgin church & shut the door of their probation! (not the individuals) See John 1:11, Matt, 25:10, Matt. 23:38, Rev. 2:5. Yet, He started the New Fold of Acts up with His same Virgin set of Doctrines and a 'remnant' who followed Him out of old Israel! Matt. 23:1-3 & Isaiah 5:1-9.

Anyway: Christ Himself Tel's you the EVIDENCE you ask for a couple chapters over from Matt. 16, in Matt. 18:15-18, and note the 'KEYS' are given 'by Christ' to His New Church to BIND or REMOVE from the heavenly ZION'S Church by His OBEDIENT ones here on earth. (which is CONDITIONAL as is ALL THE ETERNAL GOSPEL CONDITIONS! Rev. 14:6) You can read Joshua 7 for this Truth. Verse 12 ibid.. tells US a Eternal Truth that 'I WILL NOT BE WITH YOU ANYMORE EXCEPT..' Achan was given several chances to come forward also.

[15] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Forum: Did you get that??)

This seems self explanatory. The [OBEDIENT CHURCH] Love Christ [FIRST] and all the members. When one is ready for Baptism (Matt. 28:20) and the church finds that the party is SINCERE, they are added to the Earthly True Fold (church) as well as being recorded into the Lamb's Book of life in the Heavenly ZION FOLD.

OK: God does not play games with the CHURCH either! As pointed out in the above verses. The CHURCH IS CONDITIONALLY 'ETERNAL COVENANTED (Heb. 13:20) ACCEPTED. (compare Matt. 23:38 & Rev. 2:5 with Rev. 3:16-17) So when Christ speaks of 'BEING LOOSED IN HEAVEN', it applies to the whole Fold (church) as well. Here we see when any member goes against the Law of God (1 John 3:4) & will not repent, he is REQUIRED to be removed from the earthly church membership books & is also removed from the heavenly ZION CHURCH BOOKS. That is what the Eternal Gospel of Christ has SAID> these are His Words.

When one reads of this REQUIREMENT of Christ, remember that it is not the attempted 'mind reading' things that He is talking about, but OPEN UNREPENTED SEEN & DOCUMENTED SINS that is to be brought before the whole church body,
and has nothing to do with a Peter the one man pope garbage!!

When anyone sins the sin of OMISSION by not following these Gospel REQUIREMENTS for whatever the 'Lukewarm' reason might be? They too are held accountable for the sins as if they had done the thing them selves. THEY ARE A REV. 18:4 [PARTAKER]! As seen in the case of ALL of Israel with Achan' case.

--Elijah

 

[toddm]

Richard,

You failed to address any of my points concerning God-ordained church leadership found in Scripture.

Also, how do you know that YOUR interpretation of Scripture is correct? Are you trusting a subjective "hunch"? How do you KNOW for sure that the Holy Spirit is the one showing you something?

Again, you misinterpret the point of Hebrews 7 and Jesus being our high priest. The context is one of making sin offerings and atonement for the people. That was the primary role of the high priest (Exodus 28 or so). That passage says nothing about Jesus being the only that should teach us. It has everything to do w/ the completion of atonement. He is the highest priest and the last because there is no more offerings to be made. The passage is all about sin offering, not teaching.

How does your way of thinking deal with Hebrews 13:17?
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

That's pretty clear! God desires that we obey and submit to the sub-shepherds He's placed over the flock. Now that doesn't mean we cease to be faithful like the Bereans. We should always make sure that what is taught from the pulpit is in accordance w/ Scripture. God calls for discernment in public teaching, not total abandonment.

Furthermore, your ideology detracts from God's sovereignty, whether you realize that or not. You're basically saying that God has not preserved His church like he promised in Matthew 16:18. The implications of this are that either God was a liar in Matt. 16:18 or He was unable to maintain & preserve the church. Now, I know that the church has had some dark periods but there has never been a total apostasy.

I would caution your way of thinking. It is this kind of thinking that "all religions are wrong" that give birth to cults. I'm not saying that you're cultic, I'm just seeing a pattern that others have taken and that's where it's ended (ie, Joseph Smith).

 

[Elijah674]

Richard,

You failed to address any of my points concerning God-ordained church leadership found in Scripture.

Also, how do you know that YOUR interpretation of Scripture is correct? Are you trusting a subjective "hunch"? How do you KNOW for sure that the Holy Spirit is the one showing you something?

Again, you misinterpret the point of Hebrews 7 and Jesus being our high priest. The context is one of making sin offerings and atonement for the people. That was the primary role of the high priest (Exodus 28 or so). That passage says nothing about Jesus being the only that should teach us. It has everything to do w/ the completion of atonement. He is the highest priest and the last because there is no more offerings to be made. The passage is all about sin offering, not teaching.

How does your way of thinking deal with Hebrews 13:17?
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

That's pretty clear! God desires that we obey and submit to the sub-shepherds He's placed over the flock. Now that doesn't mean we cease to be faithful like the Bereans. We should always make sure that what is taught from the pulpit is in accordance w/ Scripture. God calls for discernment in public teaching, not total abandonment.

Furthermore, your ideology detracts from God's sovereignty, whether you realize that or not. You're basically saying that God has not preserved His church like he promised in Matthew 16:18. The implications of this are that either God was a liar in Matt. 16:18 or He was unable to maintain & preserve the church. Now, I know that the church has had some dark periods but there has never been a total apostasy.

I would caution your way of thinking. It is this kind of thinking that "all religions are wrong" that give birth to cults. I'm not saying that you're cultic, I'm just seeing a pattern that others have taken and that's where it's ended (ie, Joseph Smith).

OK! ;) Thanks. (but that advice goes for me as well, huh? )
But I have NO Gen. 4:7 DESIRE to TRAMPLE on Titus 3:9-11's Truth. And 'i' can see that I have been around this CANNED SITE also past my one or two MODERATED NONESENSE!

--Elijah

 

[Adullam]

I cannot see how people can place their trust in a religious organization that is based upon that religious organization's interpretation of Bible scripture. Think about the time of Jesus Christ. There were all kinds of different beliefs. The Pharisees believed salvation was in the promises made to Abraham and by keeping the law. The Sadducees believed they had the truth and it denied the resurrection. Look at what Jesus said about them. They were blind, leading the blind, and the truth was not in them. The Catholic Church has religious leaders and they fleeced and tormented the illiterate people in the middle ages and seem to worship idols. The Muslims believe in the Islamic religion. The Jehovah Witness people have their interpretation of the Bible. The protestant denominations have their interpretation of the Bible. The point is that they disagreed in the meaning of religious writings and even today men disagree.

Am I really supposed to place my trust (faith) in a Religious organization's leadership and wisdom? Where I spend eternity depends upon where I place my trust.

. . . . . . . . . . Which one should I choose????
. . . . . . . . . . I will choose none of them.

I do not believe that Jesus Christ came to set up just another new and improved physical organized religion run by men who can deceive themselves? I, personally, don't think so since he said that the time will come, after his death, when man will not say, let us go here, or there, to worship God, for man will worship God from within his heart, in other words, a personal worship of God whose spirit will be living within the hearts of those who love him. The following scriptures support my conclusions. Notice, in verse 28 below, how the verse acknowledges that men are weak and that the Son has been perfected forever. He did not leave us in the hands of weak human (leaders and priests). He has become our "high priest" and we need no other.

Heb 7:25-28
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
(NKJ)

Men use human wisdom interpreting the Bible, or other religious books, to build up an organized system in which he can place the responsibility for his salvation. They usually include things that men have to do. Most people feel that if they, belong to the "right church or religious organization", go to the meetings, spend some time there, and try to live a good lifestyle they are okay with God. Their only relationship with God is through their religious organization and what they do. But God looks into the heart and he knows those that trust Him.

What then, do I trust in? Is it to be man's great ideas or my great works? No, it is not. I trust God's promise of salvation through Jesus Christ. It is God's gift to me. He holds me in his hands and nothing can pluck me out of His hands. He is my Father and I am his child. Because of His love, someday I will be with Him. I will love Him and he will love me throughout eternity. All praise and glory go to my Father in heaven and to His Son, Jesus Christ, who died on the cross to pay for my sins. Salvation is by faith (trust). Read Hebrews, chapter 11, verses 1 through 40 in the Bible.

No one is alone at being a Christian in the world. If we cannot recognize Christ in others and love them then we really don't know God. We are called into a Body. We will never mature into the perfection of selfless love on our own. The gifts of God have been distributed among the brethren. We need the brethren. No argument against a follower of Christ being on his own holds any water. In fact, Christians are meant to gather together to be a witness to the world. You won't find any lone ranger types in the NT.
While I understand the confusion that the carnal ways of men have sown into modern practice, being spiritual alone doesn't work whichever way one looks at it. If one is truly spiritual, then that one needs to help the weaker brethren. We will be judged on our selfless character. The gifts are God's, not ours. We won't only be judged on our acceptance of God's grace, but our willingness to bear the burdens of others. Seek the Lord for the brethren.

 

[toddm]

Richard,

You failed to address any of my points concerning God-ordained church leadership found in Scripture.

Also, how do you know that YOUR interpretation of Scripture is correct? Are you trusting a subjective "hunch"? How do you KNOW for sure that the Holy Spirit is the one showing you something?

Again, you misinterpret the point of Hebrews 7 and Jesus being our high priest. The context is one of making sin offerings and atonement for the people. That was the primary role of the high priest (Exodus 28 or so). That passage says nothing about Jesus being the only that should teach us. It has everything to do w/ the completion of atonement. He is the highest priest and the last because there is no more offerings to be made. The passage is all about sin offering, not teaching.

How does your way of thinking deal with Hebrews 13:17?
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

That's pretty clear! God desires that we obey and submit to the sub-shepherds He's placed over the flock. Now that doesn't mean we cease to be faithful like the Bereans. We should always make sure that what is taught from the pulpit is in accordance w/ Scripture. God calls for discernment in public teaching, not total abandonment.

Furthermore, your ideology detracts from God's sovereignty, whether you realize that or not. You're basically saying that God has not preserved His church like he promised in Matthew 16:18. The implications of this are that either God was a liar in Matt. 16:18 or He was unable to maintain & preserve the church. Now, I know that the church has had some dark periods but there has never been a total apostasy.

I would caution your way of thinking. It is this kind of thinking that "all religions are wrong" that give birth to cults. I'm not saying that you're cultic, I'm just seeing a pattern that others have taken and that's where it's ended (ie, Joseph Smith).

OK! ;) Thanks. (but that advice goes for me as well, huh? )
But I have NO Gen. 4:7 DESIRE to TRAMPLE on Titus 3:9-11's Truth. And 'i' can see that I have been around this CANNED SITE also past my one or two MODERATED NONESENSE!

--Elijah

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[RichardBurger]

Toddm said: “Richard, ----- You failed to address any of my points concerning God-ordained church leadership found in Scripture.

** I get this a lot. A person replies to my post and refuses to make any comment on the scriptures I give and then insists that I comment on his/hers.

Toddm said: Also, how do you know that YOUR interpretation of Scripture is correct? Are you trusting a subjective "hunch"? How do you KNOW for sure that the Holy Spirit is the one showing you something?

** It is called faith (trust) in God. He has promised that those that trust in Him will never be put to shame. I truly believe He keeps His promises.

Toddm said: Again, you misinterpret the point of Hebrews 7 and Jesus being our high priest. The context is one of making sin offerings and atonement for the people. That was the primary role of the high priest (Exodus 28 or so). That passage says nothing about Jesus being the only that should teach us. It has everything to do w/ the completion of atonement. He is the highest priest and the last because there is no more offerings to be made. The passage is all about sin offering, not teaching.

** Are you denying that the Holy Spirit, who indwells the child of God also teaches the child?

Toddm said: How does your way of thinking deal with Hebrews 13:17?
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

** And who is your leader? Paul is mine. --- You use this as a means of giving legitimacy to human teachers in religions of today. The scriptures teach that men are weak. Is your teacher weak? I certainly do not think that a child of God has to submit to a false teacher. A false teacher can send those he/she teaches to Hell. -- Trust in whom you wish but as for me I will trust in God.

Hebrews 7:26-8:2
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
The New Priestly Service 8 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
NKJV


Toddm said: That's pretty clear! God desires that we obey and submit to the sub-shepherds He's placed over the flock. Now that doesn't mean we cease to be faithful like the Bereans. We should always make sure that what is taught from the pulpit is in accordance w/ Scripture. God calls for discernment in public teaching, not total abandonment.

** And who are your sub-shepherds? Anyone that claims to be closer to God than anyone else. I remember that at one time that role was filled by Pharisees. God provided Paul who taught the gospel of God’s grace. He is my sub-shepherd. You say, oh but he is not alive. His writing are alive today.

Toddm said: Furthermore, your ideology detracts from God's sovereignty, whether you realize that or not. You're basically saying that God has not preserved His church like he promised in Matthew 16:18. The implications of this are that either God was a liar in Matt. 16:18 or He was unable to maintain & preserve the church. Now, I know that the church has had some dark periods but there has never been a total apostasy.

** That is you idea and it is false. God has preserved His Church of Christ’s body. It is not a physical, man-ran and organized church. It is a spiritual church as I have written before. --- You follow after religious man and do not realize that the gospel of ther kingdom was rejected by the Jews. God did not turn around and offer to set up a Gentile kingdom on this earth. He sent Paul with the gospel of grace that was hidden in God.

Matthew 16:18
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
NKJV

** This verse is used by the RCC in an attempt to legitimize the RCC. The Church Jesus is referencing is a future church that will be established by Jesus during His 1,000 year reign after the 7 year tribulation. In this church the 12 Apostles will sit on 12 thrones reigning over the 12 tribes of Israel. --- When Jesus came to Israel, He came to set this church up. But the Jews rejected Him (and therefore rejected His Church).
----- But you won’t accept this as true.

Toddm said: I would caution your way of thinking. It is this kind of thinking that "all religions are wrong" that give birth to cults. I'm not saying that you're cultic, I'm just seeing a pattern that others have taken and that's where it's ended (ie, Joseph Smith).

** Of course you will say this. Do you think much about the RCC inquisitions? Jesus said you can’t get good fruit from a bad tree. To me the RCC is a bad tree. --- But you are right, I see all religion as being the Devil’s workshops. ---- Religion is ALL about what man does for the god in their imaginations. I see that Satan (the Devil) wants men/women to be religious and lost. A child of God knows that his/her Father in heaven has done all that is necessary for a persons salvation and they trust Him. God gets all the credit and the glory.

 

[RichardBurger]

Adullam said: --- No one is alone at being a Christian in the world. If we cannot recognize Christ in others and love them then we really don't know God. We are called into a Body. We will never mature into the perfection of selfless love on our own. The gifts of God have been distributed among the brethren. We need the brethren. No argument against a follower of Christ being on his own holds any water. In fact, Christians are meant to gather together to be a witness to the world. You won't find any lone ranger types in the NT.

*** Are you referencing the following scripture?
Hebrews 10:25
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
NKJV

Nothing is said about a man ran organized religion. So you are saying that no one can be a child of God unless he/she belong to a religious organization ran by men. -- I don’t believe that at all. I believe a child of God has a personal relationship with his/her Father in heaven. What more do you need?

From all the writings of Paul he recognizes the children of God by their “faith†and I do not think the word faith is used to denote a religious church label.

Adullam said: --- While I understand the confusion that the carnal ways of men have sown into modern practice, being spiritual alone doesn't work whichever way one looks at it. If one is truly spiritual, then that one needs to help the weaker brethren. We will be judged on our selfless character. The gifts are God's, not ours. We won't only be judged on our acceptance of God's grace, but our willingness to bear the burdens of others. Seek the Lord for the brethren.

*** I am on this, and many other, forums and in many Bible study classes trying to help weaker brothers understand that all a person needs is Jesus (God). I do this knowing that many will vilify me and attack my character. This is my work for God. --- You are indicating that knowing Jesus is just not enough and you should be ashamed for doing it. He is the center of everything. He is a great treasure, a Pearl of great price and I am content in knowing Him.

Matthew 13:44-46
44 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls,
46 who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
NKJV

What did Paul give up? According to the scripture below he gave up religion.

Philippians 3:5-11
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
NKJV

 

[toddm]

Richard,
Please answer this question - "does God ordain men as overseers of the Church?" If you answer "no", please provide some Scriptural support for your answer. I think this is the meat of the discussion, so I don't really see any need to comment on the minutia.

And it seems that you're assuming that I'm Roman Catholic, and I'm not. Just wanted to clarify just in case you were making that assumption.

 

[toddm]

Nothing is said about a man ran organized religion. So you are saying that no one can be a child of God unless he/she belong to a religious organization ran by men. -- I don’t believe that at all. I believe a child of God has a personal relationship with his/her Father in heaven. What more do you need?

I don't think he or I ever implied that you must belong to some organization to be saved. However, we created as relational beings and God desires that we fellowship w/ one another (Acts 2) and grow as a Body (1 Corinthians 12).

From all the writings of Paul he recognizes the children of God by their “faith†and I do not think the word faith is used to denote a religious church label.

Yeah, but by their faith they are called "ekklesia" which is the Greek work for Church and means "called out ones". Because they are a group, then their should be fellowship for building, teaching, and encouragement (Hebrews 10).

What did Paul give up? According to the scripture below he gave up religion.

Philippians 3:5-11
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
NKJV

Paul gave up a false and insincere religion for true religion - a relationship w/ God. However, Paul was a church planter and never did he say that the Corinthians, Ephesians, Thessalonians, Colossians, etc. should just love Jesus and not worry about being united as a Body. In fact, this was one his common reprimands in most of his letters. Also, Paul's letters to Timothy are nothing but exhortations to stay committed to leading the church in Ephesus. He never tells Timothy to walk away from the church and just "focus on Jesus".

 

[Adullam]

Adullam said: --- No one is alone at being a Christian in the world. If we cannot recognize Christ in others and love them then we really don't know God. We are called into a Body. We will never mature into the perfection of selfless love on our own. The gifts of God have been distributed among the brethren. We need the brethren. No argument against a follower of Christ being on his own holds any water. In fact, Christians are meant to gather together to be a witness to the world. You won't find any lone ranger types in the NT.

*** Are you referencing the following scripture?
Hebrews 10:25
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
NKJV

Nothing is said about a man ran organized religion. So you are saying that no one can be a child of God unless he/she belong to a religious organization ran by men. -- I don’t believe that at all. I believe a child of God has a personal relationship with his/her Father in heaven. What more do you need?

From all the writings of Paul he recognizes the children of God by their “faith†and I do not think the word faith is used to denote a religious church label.

Adullam said: --- While I understand the confusion that the carnal ways of men have sown into modern practice, being spiritual alone doesn't work whichever way one looks at it. If one is truly spiritual, then that one needs to help the weaker brethren. We will be judged on our selfless character. The gifts are God's, not ours. We won't only be judged on our acceptance of God's grace, but our willingness to bear the burdens of others. Seek the Lord for the brethren.

*** I am on this, and many other, forums and in many Bible study classes trying to help weaker brothers understand that all a person needs is Jesus (God). I do this knowing that many will vilify me and attack my character. This is my work for God. --- You are indicating that knowing Jesus is just not enough and you should be ashamed for doing it. He is the center of everything. He is a great treasure, a Pearl of great price and I am content in knowing Him.

Matthew 13:44-46
44 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls,
46 who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
NKJV

What did Paul give up? According to the scripture below he gave up religion.

Philippians 3:5-11
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
NKJV

I'm not talking about organized religion here. The church is the brotherhood of the community of the saints. They share a common life. They break bread from house to house. They pray together. They confess their sins to each other. They are acountable to each other.

 

[RichardBurger]

I'm not talking about organized religion here. The church is the brotherhood of the community of the saints. They share a common life. They break bread from house to house. They pray together. They confess their sins to each other. They are acountable to each other.

Then why are you argueing with me?

This is what I said in the OP. There is a physical organized man-ran religious church and there is a Spiritual Church ran by the Holy Spirit. All children of God are members of the Spiritual Church but there are many in the physical man-ran organized church that are not children of God. -- I do not go to a physical church just because you, or someone else, feels I should. Since I know they preach false ideas I do not care to go to them. And no one is going to lay a guilt trip on me because I don't. I walk with God and am at peace with Him.

 

[toddm]

I'm not talking about organized religion here. The church is the brotherhood of the community of the saints. They share a common life. They break bread from house to house. They pray together. They confess their sins to each other. They are acountable to each other.

Then why are you argueing with me?

This is what I said in the OP. There is a physical organized man-ran religious church and there is a Spiritual Church ran by the Holy Spirit. All children of God are members of the Spiritual Church but there are many in the physical man-ran organized church that are not children of God. -- I do not go to a physical church just because you, or someone else, feels I should. Since I know they preach false ideas I do not care to go to them. And no one is going to lay a guilt trip on me because I don't. I walk with God and am at peace with Him.

You're implying that most people fellowshiping in a local congregation are not saved and following a false religion. As a church leader, I can personally and affirmatively say that is not the case. Yes, there are people who don't know Jesus. But i have seen many give their lives to Christ in our services because of how the Holy Spirit used the preaching. Paul didn't have this mindset. He was always preaching the Gospel and reasoning with people in congregations. Never once do we see anywhere in the NT that gathering as the Body of Christ is condemned.

Your attitude toward the Church saddens me as I believe that you are throwing many Christians out w/ the "bath water".

 

[RichardBurger]

I'm not talking about organized religion here. The church is the brotherhood of the community of the saints. They share a common life. They break bread from house to house. They pray together. They confess their sins to each other. They are acountable to each other.

Then why are you argueing with me?

This is what I said in the OP. There is a physical organized man-ran religious church and there is a Spiritual Church ran by the Holy Spirit. All children of God are members of the Spiritual Church but there are many in the physical man-ran organized church that are not children of God. -- I do not go to a physical church just because you, or someone else, feels I should. Since I know they preach false ideas I do not care to go to them. And no one is going to lay a guilt trip on me because I don't. I walk with God and am at peace with Him.

You're implying that most people fellowshiping in a local congregation are not saved and following a false religion. As a church leader, I can personally and affirmatively say that is not the case. Yes, there are people who don't know Jesus. But i have seen many give their lives to Christ in our services because of how the Holy Spirit used the preaching. Paul didn't have this mindset. He was always preaching the Gospel and reasoning with people in congregations. Never once do we see anywhere in the NT that gathering as the Body of Christ is condemned.

Your attitude toward the Church saddens me as I believe that you are throwing many Christians out w/ the "bath water".

And I have, personally, seen the results of what some of those same religious people teach and it wasn't GOOD works.

I have said "MANY." If you feel I am talking about you then you must think what I said is about you. What I hear the religious churches preaching is the "MORAL / SOCIAL" gospel; the gospel of good works; the gospel of how when you become a Christian you will progressively be made good in the flesh. Paul never taught this gospel. A blended gospel containing the last dispensation "gospel of the kingdom" and the "gospel of grace" that Paul preached for this dispensation. You can't mix law (works) with grace. To try and do so destroys both.

Whether you will admit it or not the Scriptures teach that there will be, in the later times, an apostate church. But, of course, men will never see their religious, man-ran, organized physical church as being apostate. --- However I do. --- By the way, I can't throw a child of God out of anything. God, Himself, keeps His children.

I fail to understand how some think I should just ignore what the Holy Spirit has revealed and taught me in order to remain in the religious church and do as men tell me to. It is like the Jews who would not admit they believed in Jesus for fear that they might be put out of the synagoge. Are people trying to make me fear? They can forget it, I have peace with God in Jesus Christ, what can man do to me?

 

[toddm]

And I have, personally, seen the results of what some of those same religious people teach and it wasn't GOOD works.

I have said "MANY." If you feel I am talking about you then you must think what I said is about you. What I hear the religious churches preaching is the "MORAL / SOCIAL" gospel; the gospel of good works; the gospel of how when you become a Christian you will progressively be made good in the flesh. Paul never taught this gospel. A blended gospel containing the last dispensation "gospel of the kingdom" and the "gospel of grace" that Paul preached for this dispensation. You can't mix law (works) with grace. To try and do so destroys both.

There may be SOME churches that teach a false Gospel (ie, works+faith, or prosperity), however, you're making a generalization that this is MOST churches and I fail to see that!

Whether you will admit it or not the Scriptures teach that there will be, in the later times, an apostate church. But, of course, men will never see their religious, man-ran, organized physical church as being apostate. --- However I do. --- By the way, I can't throw a child of God out of anything. God, Himself, keeps His children.

There Scriptures do teach that some will fall away, but they never teach a TOTAL apostasy. Total apostasy is Mormon theology.

I fail to understand how some think I should just ignore what the Holy Spirit has revealed and taught me in order to remain in the religious church and do as men tell me to. It is like the Jews who would not admit they believed in Jesus for fear that they might be put out of the synagoge. Are people trying to make me fear? They can forget it, I have peace with God in Jesus Christ, what can man do to me?

Ok. The Holy Spirit has revealed TO ME that it is His will for me to commune and fellowship w/ other believers and be fed the Word of God by men that God has ordained to preach and teach for the purpose of growing His sheep. How do we know who's right and who's wrong? Because we both know that the Holy Spirit doesn't contradict Himself. This is the problem when we rest our entire conviction upon a subjective feeling.