The Church

[francisdesales]

Relying on yourself does not eliminate the "chance" you speak of... it merely eliminates the possibility that you may hear a difference of opinion from someone else who may be more wise and spiritually aware. Individuals are much more exposed to danger of such things as self-delusion.

Regards

A tree is known by it's fruit.

You are assuming that the tree ALWAYS will bear good fruit... Those who think they are without sin are lairs, according to St. John. In addition, you are judging TODAY'S fruit, not knowing WHEN the tree will indeed bear fruit, if ever. Fortunately, the Lord is more patient.

 

[francisdesales]

hi francis,

I took the liberty to edit your paragraph to focus on an issue that we have previously corresponded about.

If the call to reform happened from within the church all would agree that is a good sign, but it does not follow that the call to reform will necessarily be heeded.

I think eventually, it will be heeded, if it is a legitimate call.

In the event that the call is not heeded within the church - the call to reform then has to come from outside the church. If the reform is necessary to prevent serious crime or to bring a criminal to justice, the call is all the more urgent because the affect upon the body of Christ is all the more devastating.

Heeding the call to reform requires discernment, since the Church clearly cannot heed every "call to reform", like the call to allow abortion or birth control, or the call to allow openly gay people to be priests in a misguided "call to reform"... The Church must distinguish between a call to return to Christ and a call to the ways and whims of the world.

Only in this way can it be guaranteed that no one in the employment of the church (eg priests or bishops) are above the law or protected by the church and placed beyond the reach of justice. To do otherwise would implicate the church in the guilt of the offender/criminal.

Agree, no one is above the law, and the Church has gotten more transparent on such matters. People are fingerprinted, backgrounds are checked, and legitimate complaints are handled by the police, rather than by (or in addition to, sometimes) the ecclesiastical decisions. This is a further example of reform taking place within the Church - rather than people leaving the Church to start another "more holy" Church.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

All OPEN Unrepentant Covenant Breakers are Liars, including Churchs!--Elijah

 

[Steve76]

All OPEN Unrepentant Covenant Breakers are Liars, including Churchs!--Elijah

You know...I had a discussion the other day with an older Christian couple. I was out evangelising and sharing the Gospel when I got approached. I will mention here that I found it hard to find a Church that I felt comfortable with because there were things going on in them that I just could not agree with. Being a new and passionate believer, I want to get it right!

Well this couple approached me and went straight in with "What Church do you belong to?.."
We get this all of the time. Not "Hi, how are you bro?" or "Hey, it's nice to see other believers out sharing the Gospel"...It is always "WHAT CHURCH???".. :crazy

Anyway, I just replied 'The Body of Christ', and went on to advise that I have finally found a Church that sticks to the Word of God. They asked me what was wrong with the other ones. I said that they allow sin in them and they are more like social clubs..
Their answer was and I've heard this one before too "Tell me a Church that does not allow sin!"..
What kind of answer is this? I believe it should be dealt with or the person not allowed in. But, I guess that if a Pastor is not bothered to deal with it (maybe needing the tithes!?) then this is what happens..

And it turned out and has turned out before that the ones that approach us.....are Pastors!



http://getwiththeword.blogspot.com/

 

[toddm]

All OPEN Unrepentant Covenant Breakers are Liars, including Churchs!--Elijah

You know...I had a discussion the other day with an older Christian couple. I was out evangelising and sharing the Gospel when I got approached. I will mention here that I found it hard to find a Church that I felt comfortable with because there were things going on in them that I just could not agree with. Being a new and passionate believer, I want to get it right!

Well this couple approached me and went straight in with "What Church do you belong to?.."
We get this all of the time. Not "Hi, how are you bro?" or "Hey, it's nice to see other believers out sharing the Gospel"...It is always "WHAT CHURCH???".. :crazy

Anyway, I just replied 'The Body of Christ', and went on to advise that I have finally found a Church that sticks to the Word of God. They asked me what was wrong with the other ones. I said that they allow sin in them and they are more like social clubs..
Their answer was and I've heard this one before too "Tell me a Church that does not allow sin!"..
What kind of answer is this? I believe it should be dealt with or the person not allowed in. But, I guess that if a Pastor is not bothered to deal with it (maybe needing the tithes!?) then this is what happens..

And it turned out and has turned out before that the ones that approach us.....are Pastors!



http://getwiththeword.blogspot.com/

Though I appreciate your zeal for purity in the Body of Christ, your approach is less than gracious. I agree that sin among believers should be addressed in the church and dealt with, but if they refuse to repent after all the proper steps have been taken by church leadership (Matt. 18), then I don't think the right course of action is telling the ushers to not let this guy in. I mean, what kind of logic is that? Oh, he's a sinner, don't let him in the church to hear the Gospel preached because he might accept Jesus! I think if someone claims to be a believer and refuses to turn away from sin in their life, then the church should probably now view them as an unbeliever since there's no fruit of repentance.

To avoid churches because there's sin is absurd. We're all sinful people. The difference with the church is that we're sinful people trying to live for Jesus. Now, there are some churches out there w/ whacky theology and teachings (*cough* TBN *cough* Joel Osteen) but we don't throw out the entire body of Christ for the sake of a few less pure churches. What if the Apostle Paul did this?!? He never told the Corinthians or even the Galatians that they weren't true members of the Body of the Christ. Yes, he addressed issues that were in the church, but he did so as a gracious shepherd who cares for people. As followers of Jesus who have experienced God's grace, we should be quick to turn that grace back on to others, and if they are living in sin then to follow Jesus' approach in Matt. 18 to help correct for the sake of their own soul.

 

[Steve76]

I disagree with you Todd because I have seen what sin does to corrupt God's word within Churches.
Of course we are all sinners that go to Church, understandable, but sin spreads like cancer and for a Church to overlook a particular person/persons who have openly sinned within the Church and just...forget about it?

That to me is just not acceptable, and what kind of example is being given here by a Pastor who would not get this dealt with Biblically...?

It is leaven and must be taken out of the Church and dealt with correctly. Also, this type of witness is not good and the world take notice of it. For example, a well known local Church in my city allows open sin.
The Pastor and his minister have both been found guilty of adultery as they have divorced their wives to marry their maids. The Pastor's son is a sodomite who cross dresses and plays female roles in plays they perform. They have a female minister who believes she is a prophet and is nicknamed the swearing prophet, believing she is hearing a spirit guide telling her to preach with bad language!
The list goes on..

When the world sees or hears of these things going on in so called Churches then suffice to say that they think we are all the same!

Would you not agree? And as far as my approach being less than gracious then that is your opinion but I prefer to fellowship with believers who deal with their sin..

 

[Elijah674]

These are Christ's Truth!

Matt. 18
[14] Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

[15] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

--Elijah

 

[toddm]

I disagree with you Todd because I have seen what sin does to corrupt God's word within Churches.
Of course we are all sinners that go to Church, understandable, but sin spreads like cancer and for a Church to overlook a particular person/persons who have openly sinned within the Church and just...forget about it?

That to me is just not acceptable, and what kind of example is being given here by a Pastor who would not get this dealt with Biblically...?

It is leaven and must be taken out of the Church and dealt with correctly. Also, this type of witness is not good and the world take notice of it. For example, a well known local Church in my city allows open sin.
The Pastor and his minister have both been found guilty of adultery as they have divorced their wives to marry their maids. The Pastor's son is a sodomite who cross dresses and plays female roles in plays they perform. They have a female minister who believes she is a prophet and is nicknamed the swearing prophet, believing she is hearing a spirit guide telling her to preach with bad language!
The list goes on..

When the world sees or hears of these things going on in so called Churches then suffice to say that they think we are all the same!

Would you not agree? And as far as my approach being less than gracious then that is your opinion but I prefer to fellowship with believers who deal with their sin..

Steve, please show me where I said that open sin should be tolerated among believers within the church. I never stated that, nor implied that. In fact, I specifically said that it SHOULD be dealt w/ as Jesus outlines in Matt. 18. Your examples are sad, and those pastors have no business leading a church. However, to assume that every church is like that is an unwarranted extreme. I know of several churches in my area w/ pastors that lead w/ integrity, teach the Word of God, and have a desire to see the lost come to Christ. I think the approach of "I know of a screwed up church, therefore they're all screwed up" is simply not warranted.

 

[Steve76]

I disagree with you Todd because I have seen what sin does to corrupt God's word within Churches.
Of course we are all sinners that go to Church, understandable, but sin spreads like cancer and for a Church to overlook a particular person/persons who have openly sinned within the Church and just...forget about it?

That to me is just not acceptable, and what kind of example is being given here by a Pastor who would not get this dealt with Biblically...?

It is leaven and must be taken out of the Church and dealt with correctly. Also, this type of witness is not good and the world take notice of it. For example, a well known local Church in my city allows open sin.
The Pastor and his minister have both been found guilty of adultery as they have divorced their wives to marry their maids. The Pastor's son is a sodomite who cross dresses and plays female roles in plays they perform. They have a female minister who believes she is a prophet and is nicknamed the swearing prophet, believing she is hearing a spirit guide telling her to preach with bad language!
The list goes on..

When the world sees or hears of these things going on in so called Churches then suffice to say that they think we are all the same!

Would you not agree? And as far as my approach being less than gracious then that is your opinion but I prefer to fellowship with believers who deal with their sin..

Steve, please show me where I said that open sin should be tolerated among believers within the church. I never stated that, nor implied that. In fact, I specifically said that it SHOULD be dealt w/ as Jesus outlines in Matt. 18. Your examples are sad, and those pastors have no business leading a church. However, to assume that every church is like that is an unwarranted extreme. I know of several churches in my area w/ pastors that lead w/ integrity, teach the Word of God, and have a desire to see the lost come to Christ. I think the approach of "I know of a screwed up church, therefore they're all screwed up" is simply not warranted.

Todd, you seem to say that I think that of all Churches when I did not and I do not understand why you think I assumed this.. :gah
I said that I finally found a decent Church. Plus, as you have commented, I would not think that of all Churches either. I was also talking about sin within Church and you replied by saying that Churches should allow sinners in to hear the Gospel. It seems to have been confused as I was not talking about the unsaved going into Church, I was talking about the saved within the Church - openly sinning. Hopefully that should be a bit more clearer now.. ;)

 

[toddm]

Todd, you seem to say that I think that of all Churches when I did not and I do not understand why you think I assumed this.. :gah
I said that I finally found a decent Church. Plus, as you have commented, I would not think that of all Churches either. I was also talking about sin within Church and you replied by saying that Churches should allow sinners in to hear the Gospel. It seems to have been confused as I was not talking about the unsaved going into Church, I was talking about the saved within the Church - openly sinning. Hopefully that should be a bit more clearer now.. ;)

Hey Steve, thank for the clarification. I believe there was some miscommunication in our posts - that's the problem w/ not having a face-to-face dialog. I think we're in agreement on this one. I whole heartedly agree that professing Christians who are living in open sin should be confronted by church leadership using the process of church discipline outlined in Matt. 18. You're also right in saying that too many churches are afraid to do this for the sake of offending people. The job of church leadership is to maintain a healthy congregation, not allow sin to infect the Body of believers.

Glad you found a good church family where you can worship and grow w/ other believers.

 

[Elijah674]

Todd, you seem to say that I think that of all Churches when I did not and I do not understand why you think I assumed this.. :gah
I said that I finally found a decent Church. Plus, as you have commented, I would not think that of all Churches either. I was also talking about sin within Church and you replied by saying that Churches should allow sinners in to hear the Gospel. It seems to have been confused as I was not talking about the unsaved going into Church, I was talking about the saved within the Church - openly sinning. Hopefully that should be a bit more clearer now.. ;)

Hey Steve, thank for the clarification. I believe there was some miscommunication in our posts - that's the problem w/ not having a face-to-face dialog. I think we're in agreement on this one. I whole heartedly agree that professing Christians who are living in open sin should be confronted by church leadership using the process of church discipline outlined in Matt. 18. You're also right in saying that too many churches are afraid to do this for the sake of offending people. The job of church leadership is to maintain a healthy congregation, not allow sin to infect the Body of believers.

Glad you found a good church family where you can worship and grow w/ other believers.

OK: Seeing that you two agree :yes Now, what do you agree about any church teaching for Truth that which [you] know to not be truth?
--Elijah

 

[Steve76]

Todd, you seem to say that I think that of all Churches when I did not and I do not understand why you think I assumed this.. :gah
I said that I finally found a decent Church. Plus, as you have commented, I would not think that of all Churches either. I was also talking about sin within Church and you replied by saying that Churches should allow sinners in to hear the Gospel. It seems to have been confused as I was not talking about the unsaved going into Church, I was talking about the saved within the Church - openly sinning. Hopefully that should be a bit more clearer now.. ;)

Hey Steve, thank for the clarification. I believe there was some miscommunication in our posts - that's the problem w/ not having a face-to-face dialog. I think we're in agreement on this one. I whole heartedly agree that professing Christians who are living in open sin should be confronted by church leadership using the process of church discipline outlined in Matt. 18. You're also right in saying that too many churches are afraid to do this for the sake of offending people. The job of church leadership is to maintain a healthy congregation, not allow sin to infect the Body of believers.

Glad you found a good church family where you can worship and grow w/ other believers.

Yea, it's easily done Bro! I have to read things a few times sometimes especially when it gets late..
I've seen some things going on in some Churches and I am blessed to have found one as good as the one I'm at. I truly believe the Lord led me there also and I'm getting Baptized there on Sunday!
On the news lastnight it was showing how the Anglican Church in Wales are losing their numbers and that Evangelistic Churches are growing..interesting. But, I will mention here that I have been to an evangelical Church in my area and it was very disappointing.. :gah

 

[Steve76]

Todd, you seem to say that I think that of all Churches when I did not and I do not understand why you think I assumed this.. :gah
I said that I finally found a decent Church. Plus, as you have commented, I would not think that of all Churches either. I was also talking about sin within Church and you replied by saying that Churches should allow sinners in to hear the Gospel. It seems to have been confused as I was not talking about the unsaved going into Church, I was talking about the saved within the Church - openly sinning. Hopefully that should be a bit more clearer now.. ;)

Hey Steve, thank for the clarification. I believe there was some miscommunication in our posts - that's the problem w/ not having a face-to-face dialog. I think we're in agreement on this one. I whole heartedly agree that professing Christians who are living in open sin should be confronted by church leadership using the process of church discipline outlined in Matt. 18. You're also right in saying that too many churches are afraid to do this for the sake of offending people. The job of church leadership is to maintain a healthy congregation, not allow sin to infect the Body of believers.

Glad you found a good church family where you can worship and grow w/ other believers.

OK: Seeing that you two agree :yes Now, what do you agree about any church teaching for Truth that which [you] know to not be truth?
--Elijah

There's not much you can do if they don't or won't listen right? You could end up being accused of sowing discord amongst the Brethren. That's what I have seen when you try to speak out.. :gah
What do you feel about it Elijah?

 

[toddm]

OK: Seeing that you two agree :yes Now, what do you agree about any church teaching for Truth that which [you] know to not be truth?
--Elijah

How are you defining truth? Are you talking about church teachings that are unbiblical? Are you talking about teaching on issues that are non-essential to salvation (ie, end times, use of spiritual gifts, etc.) Or are you talking about issues essential to salvation (ie, deity of Christ, Christ's resurrection, etc.)

I would say that any church teaching "extra-biblical" or unbiblical ideas or a church that strays from essential Christian truths/doctrine should be avoided. There is room for grace on the non-essential issues where one can be blessed and not necessarily agree on the pastor's views of end times or what have you.

Oh, and congrats on getting baptized this Sunday, Steve!!

 

[Elijah674]

Truth that which [you] know to not be truth?
--Elijah[/b][/size][/quote]How are you defining truth? Are you talking about church teachings that are unbiblical? Are you talking about teaching on issues that are non-essential to salvation (ie, end times, use of spiritual gifts, etc.) Or are you talking about issues essential to salvation (ie, deity of Christ, Christ's resurrection, etc.)

I would say that any church teaching "extra-biblical" or unbiblical ideas or a church that strays from essential Christian truths/doctrine should be avoided. There is room for grace on the non-essential issues where one can be blessed and not necessarily agree on the pastor's views of end times or what have you.

Oh, and congrats on getting baptized this Sunday, Steve!! [/quote]

Elijah here: I see any True church living by Christ Word below.
I see 2 Tim. 316 & Matt. 4:4 essential doctrines on any issue. If a church goes contrary knowingly it to me is in time seen as apostasy.

2 Tim.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Matt.4
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Eccl. 3
[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, (or sayeth) it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Rev. 22
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(and it was uninspired that divided up the books of Gods Word & added the chapters, numbers +)

And Christ in Matt. 28:20 told us to teach them to 'onserve ALL THINGS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU' and then came baptism as I see it.

--Elijah

 

[seekandlisten]

Elijah here: I see any True church living by Christ Word below.
I see 2 Tim. 316 & Matt. 4:4 essential doctrines on any issue. If a church goes contrary knowingly it to me is in time seen as apostasy.

2 Tim.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Matt.4
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Eccl. 3
[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, (or sayeth) it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Rev. 22
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(and it was uninspired that divided up the books of Gods Word & added the chapters, numbers +)

And Christ in Matt. 28:20 told us to teach them to 'onserve ALL THINGS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU' and then came baptism as I see it.

--Elijah

I just have a couple questions for you Elijah if you wouldn't mind sharing your thoughts? What is your opinion of the statement 'all scripture' in 2 tim. 3:16. Do you think this only refers to what the church canonized? It wasn't until the 3rd century that the bible was canonized so do you think that what our bible consists of today is all that was considered scripture? Also in your quote of Rev. 22:18,19, do you equate this as a warning of the whole bible as it is canonized or simply the book of revelation? I also was wondering what exactly you were refering to when you say it was uninspired that divided up the books and added the chapeter and verses?? Thanks

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah here: I see any True church living by Christ Word below.
I see 2 Tim. 316 & Matt. 4:4 essential doctrines on any issue. If a church goes contrary knowingly it to me is in time seen as apostasy.

2 Tim.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Matt.4
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Eccl. 3
[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, (or sayeth) it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Rev. 22
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(and it was uninspired that divided up the books of Gods Word & added the chapters, numbers +)

And Christ in Matt. 28:20 told us to teach them to 'onserve ALL THINGS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU' and then came baptism as I see it.

--Elijah

I just have a couple questions for you Elijah if you wouldn't mind sharing your thoughts? What is your opinion of the statement 'all scripture' in 2 tim. 3:16. Do you think this only refers to what the church canonized? It wasn't until the 3rd century that the bible was canonized so do you think that what our bible consists of today is all that was considered scripture? Also in your quote of Rev. 22:18,19, do you equate this as a warning of the whole bible as it is canonized or simply the book of revelation? I also was wondering what exactly you were refering to when you say it was uninspired that divided up the books and added the chapeter and verses?? Thanks

Hi Seek.., my Belief is in THE ETERNAL WORD of God. (Rev. 14:6) + John 1. And the 'ALL SCRIPTURE is Inclusive' for me, regardless of when God allowed it in print. And this is what the Godhead has [allowed] us in Hosea 4:6 time period + ALL else. If anything ealse came along it cannot violate this. Even when measured by Isa. 8:20 Inspiration of Christ Words of the 66 Books ALONG BESIDE the Eternal Covenant there seen.. and [FIRST] mentioned. Which is so because it is the ONLY PART THAT GOD HIMSELF WROTE. Two Places! (the Born Again heart also ) And the rest is man's INSPIRED PEN, but in his own DESCRIPTION of words. (other/wise we would not need what some call 4 Gospels. for the most part they would be all nearly alike in descriptive words)

And that is why we need BOTH VERSES that were given.

--Elijah

PS: You asked my thoughts with that of the uninspired work of man with the Bible collections +? Surely these men were doing the best that they knew as Christians. Yet, there are a small number of things that are done as they thought best. We have a N.T. + an O.T. divided up into chapters. numbers, periods, comas & the like. There are a couple very obvious mistakes with this.

 

[Steve76]

OK: Seeing that you two agree :yes Now, what do you agree about any church teaching for Truth that which [you] know to not be truth?
--Elijah

How are you defining truth? Are you talking about church teachings that are unbiblical? Are you talking about teaching on issues that are non-essential to salvation (ie, end times, use of spiritual gifts, etc.) Or are you talking about issues essential to salvation (ie, deity of Christ, Christ's resurrection, etc.)

I would say that any church teaching "extra-biblical" or unbiblical ideas or a church that strays from essential Christian truths/doctrine should be avoided. There is room for grace on the non-essential issues where one can be blessed and not necessarily agree on the pastor's views of end times or what have you.

Oh, and congrats on getting baptized this Sunday, Steve!!

Thanks Todd! Can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Elijah674]

There can be NO DOUBT that this was the True Virgin Fold to be! But, which ones were to be the Church? See Acts 7:18's CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS! after their TESTING!

Exod.16 (in part)

[1] And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.

[2] And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness:

[3] And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

[4] Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

(Tested on just the one 7th Day Sabbath Commandment to see if they were faithful! See James 2:8-12 + 1 John 2:4 )

[5] And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

[6] And Moses and Aaron said unto all the children of Israel, At even, then ye shall know that the LORD hath brought you out from the land of Egypt:

[7] And in the morning, then ye shall see the glory of the LORD; for that he heareth your murmurings against the LORD: and what are we, that ye murmur against us?

[8] And Moses said, This shall be, when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full; for that the LORD heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the LORD.

[9] And Moses spake unto Aaron, Say unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, Come near before the LORD: for he hath heard your murmurings.

[10] And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

[11] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

[12] I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God.

[13] And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.

[14] And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.

[15] And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.

[16] This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.

[17] And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.

[18] And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.

[19] And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.

[20] Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

[21] And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.

[22] And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.

[23] And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

[24] And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

[25] And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

[26] Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

[27] And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

[28] And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

...

[35] And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited; they did eat manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan.

(And what are you looking for right after being tested with the mark of the Beast?? And yes, we know, some already think that they are in their land of Canaan.)

Eccl. 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

(666 is this same 7th Day Sabbath 'REMEMBER THE SABBATH' Testing! Just on this one commandment to see if they are safe to save for all of Eternity! Nah. 1:9. And 40 years?? Not this time around, for Christ + Paul through Inspiration stated that 'IT SHALL BE CUT SHORT IN RIGHTEOUSNESS!!)

Eccl. 3

[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, (or sayeth!) it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

(This is almost a perfect repeat from Rev. 22:18-19 which also will get ones name removed from the Book of Life.. if it were there to begin with! See also the DOCUMENTATION of Exod. 32:33!)

[15] That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

+ the dual documentation as seen in Gen. 42

[32] And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

This Eternal Gospel Truth has been from the day before Gentile Adam was created well into Eternity! With just the simple documentation of IF ye Love Me keep My Commandments! And then will be seen the recorded answer of only yes or No. Eccl. 12:13-14.

--Elijah

 

[Rick W]

Thread cleaned of previous debating of the validity or invalidity of one earthly church.
This thread is not a debate about which earthly church is true or which is not.

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