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The Church

RichardBurger said:
Whether you will admit it or not the Scriptures teach that there will be, in the later times, an apostate church.

Whether you admit it or not??? :lol

How about some Scriptural evidence? Where does the Bible say that there will be an apostate CHURCH??? It says that INDIVIDUALS will fall AWAY from the Church, not that the Church ITSELF will become apostate. You are fulfilling the prophesy, it would seem...

This is just another invention of the "i don't need church" idealists who forget that the Church on earth is journeying to heaven and has not YET ACHIEVED perfection...

It is a good sign that people call for reform within the Church. It is prophetic, in many ways. However, there is no biblical warrant, OT or NT, to LEAVE the Church and pretend that it is "me and Jesus" and darn the rest of the "religious folks"... This is an invention of men. Reform happens WITHIN the Church.

RichardBurger said:
But, of course, men will never see their religious, man-ran, organized physical church as being apostate. --- However I do. --- By the way, I can't throw a child of God out of anything. God, Himself, keeps His children.

Of course, INDIVIDUAL men will never see THEIR "religion" as being apostate, either... But the Bible does...

RichardBurger said:
I fail to understand how some think I should just ignore what the Holy Spirit has revealed and taught me.

Begging the question... Anyone can make a pronouncement that they have been visited by the Holy Spirit and have been given personal catechism lessons... However, the Spirit of Truth is not one of confusion. He does not tell you "x", and another person "y"... This is why it is important to understand the Church as extending through space AND TIME... This is why it is important to bear in mind the Church of yester-year was also led by the same Spirit.

RichardBurger said:
in order to remain in the religious church and do as men tell me to.

Korah said the same thing to Moses...

Your line of thought sounds good to another American unversed in the ways of the Bible, but it has very little backing from the Scriptures themselves...
 
2 Peter 2:1-3 Destructive Doctrines

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
NKJV
 
francisdesales said:
RichardBurger said:
Whether you will admit it or not the Scriptures teach that there will be, in the later times, an apostate church.

Whether you admit it or not??? :lol

How about some Scriptural evidence? Where does the Bible say that there will be an apostate CHURCH??? It says that INDIVIDUALS will fall AWAY from the Church, not that the Church ITSELF will become apostate. You are fulfilling the prophesy, it would seem...

This is just another invention of the "i don't need church" idealists who forget that the Church on earth is journeying to heaven and has not YET ACHIEVED perfection...

It is a good sign that people call for reform within the Church. It is prophetic, in many ways. However, there is no biblical warrant, OT or NT, to LEAVE the Church and pretend that it is "me and Jesus" and darn the rest of the "religious folks"... This is an invention of men. Reform happens WITHIN the Church.

RichardBurger said:
But, of course, men will never see their religious, man-ran, organized physical church as being apostate. --- However I do. --- By the way, I can't throw a child of God out of anything. God, Himself, keeps His children.

Of course, INDIVIDUAL men will never see THEIR "religion" as being apostate, either... But the Bible does...

RichardBurger said:
I fail to understand how some think I should just ignore what the Holy Spirit has revealed and taught me.

Begging the question... Anyone can make a pronouncement that they have been visited by the Holy Spirit and have been given personal catechism lessons... However, the Spirit of Truth is not one of confusion. He does not tell you "x", and another person "y"... This is why it is important to understand the Church as extending through space AND TIME... This is why it is important to bear in mind the Church of yester-year was also led by the same Spirit.

RichardBurger said:
in order to remain in the religious church and do as men tell me to.

Korah said the same thing to Moses...

Your line of thought sounds good to another American unversed in the ways of the Bible, but it has very little backing from the Scriptures themselves...
Great post! :amen
 
RichardBurger said:
2 Peter 2:1-3 Destructive Doctrines

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
NKJV
Yeah, and....

There were heresies in the early church, there are heresies in the modern church. What's your point?
 
False religion results:

In the O.T. we read where God sent Prophets to the Jews to tell them that they were not listening to Him and if it did not stop the Jews would be carried off into captivity. The Jewish leaders were teaching false things to the Jewish people. The Prophets told the Jews and especially their religious leaders that they were saying things that God did not tell them to say. It all boiled down to the religious leaders practicing false ideas and teaching the Jews it was okay. --- We know the results. The religious leaders refused to listen to the warnings that God sent them. Instead they wanted to kill the messengers.

I believe the same thing is occurring today and no one will listen. They are too busy defending the religious church they have faith in.

Jesus said this about His sheep and the Jewish religious leaders of His time:

John 10:4-18
4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.

MY COMMENT: I believe verses 12 and 13 are referring to the Jewish religious leaders of His day and that it can also be applied to the false religious teachings of today.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it do
NKJV

MY COMMENT: The above scripture teaches me that Jesus is my Shepherd and I need no other. I do not need a hireling.

The writer of Hebrews says the same thing;
Heb 7:18-22 (NKJ)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, 'You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek' "),
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

MY COMMENT: Since Jesus is my High Priest why do I need a human man as my Priest and or religious leader?

Heb 8:6-7 (NKJ)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant (Law) had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Note: The first covenant (the kingdom gospel) faded away and has been replaced by the gospel of God’s grace.

Like I said on another thread, am I really supposed to place my trust (faith) in a Religious organization's leadership and wisdom? Where I spend eternity depends upon where I place my trust.

. . . . . . . . . . Which one should I choose????
. . . . . . . . . . I will choose none of them.

I do not believe that Jesus Christ came to set up just another new and improved physical organized religion run by men who can deceive themselves? I, personally, don't think so since he said that the time will come, after his death, when man will not say, let us go here, or there, to worship God, for man will worship God from within his heart, in other words, a personal worship of God whose spirit will be living within the hearts of those who love him. The following scriptures support my conclusions. Notice, in verse 28 below, how the verse acknowledges that men are weak and that the Son has been perfected forever. He did not leave us in the hands of weak human (leaders and priests). He has become our "high priest" and we need no other.

Heb 7:25-28
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
(NKJ)
 
Richard,
I see your point concerning the Pharisees, and I'm not going to sit here and say that there aren't any Pharisee-ical or false teachers in the church (Lord knows I can list a bunch). But what you are failing to see is that not EVERY church is like that. There are good, solid churches that love God and love others out there and I think it's extremely and unfair and quite judgmental for you to label ALL Christian teachers as false.

Just out of curiosity, could you list some of these supposed false teachings/doctrines that have corrupted the entire Church?
 
toddm said:
Richard,
I see your point concerning the Pharisees, and I'm not going to sit here and say that there aren't any Pharisee-ical or false teachers in the church (Lord knows I can list a bunch). But what you are failing to see is that not EVERY church is like that. There are good, solid churches that love God and love others out there and I think it's extremely and unfair and quite judgmental for you to label ALL Christian teachers as false.

Just out of curiosity, could you list some of these supposed false teachings/doctrines that have corrupted the entire Church?

There are some teachers that are trying to teach the truth but they aren't in the main stream of religion.

The Christian religious churches teach a gospel that is a blend of two gospels;

The first gospel was the gospel of the kingdom. The gospel of the kingdom that Jesus and the 12 taught (it was all about the setting up of a Jewish kingdom on this earth just as God had promised). It would still be a kingdom based on the Law of Moses. However, the Jews rejected Jesus and His kingdom.

The second gospel had nothing to do with Jesus setting up a kingdom for the Jews---- After Jesus' rejection He (Jesus) gave Paul a gospel of God's grace; a gospel that had been hidden in God. This grace gospel was/is based entirely on the atoning shed blood of Jesus on the cross. It has nothing to do with the Jewish religion, the Jewish Law of Moses, nor any other religion. --- God is making sure that His Son's work on the cross brings results and He (God) is not leaving it in the hands of religious men.

But, of course you will not believe what I just wrote. I wonder why you asked me to list a false teaching since you already knew you would not believe what I write. But you asked and I replied.
 
RichardBurger said:
There are some teachers that are trying to teach the truth but they aren't in the main stream of religion.
Trying? Are you implying that their efforts are futile?

The Christian religious churches teach a gospel that is a blend of two gospels;
I'm still trying to understand what you mean by "Christian religious churches", and what do you mean by "mainstream"? Are you referring to preachers on TV like Joel Osteen or TD Jakes, because I would agree w/ you that those guys are "out to lunch" on their teaching.

Secondly, by 2 gospels, do you mean that God had 2 separate plans of salvation (ie, dispensational theology)? There has always been one promise that has been built upon until culminating in Christ. The promise was given to Abraham that his offspring would be a blessing to many nations. That fulfillment is seen in Christ (note: this is a very basic and loose interpretation of covenantalism and I'm defining it as such for the simplicity of the thread as to not de-rail it).


The second gospel had nothing to do with Jesus setting up a kingdom for the Jews---- After Jesus' rejection He (Jesus) gave Paul a gospel of God's grace; a gospel that had been hidden in God. This grace gospel was/is based entirely on the atoning shed blood of Jesus on the cross. It has nothing to do with the Jewish religion, the Jewish Law of Moses, nor any other religion. --- God is making sure that His Son's work on the cross brings results and He (God) is not leaving it in the hands of religious men.
Okay, here's where I see your argument fall apart and self-defeat. You say that God is not leaving the Gospel in the hands of religious men, but you preface that statement by saying that Jesus gave Paul (a religious man!) the true gospel. Do you see your contradictory and self-defeating argument?
 
RichardBurger said:
2 Peter 2:1-3 Destructive Doctrines

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
NKJV

All spoken about people such as yourself, a wolf in sheep's clothing of 21st century America...

"Leave the Church behind, you can worship God in the woods or where ever you desire. Who needs to belong to a community of fellow believers when it can be just you and the Holy Spirit and Jesus."

Yes, you are indeed leading people to destruction with the speech that fits in well with the times...
 
--Elijah here:
Let me tell you how I see the Word teaching it.

I will agree that 'some' have it fairly hard to follow Christ! Saul in Acts 9 perhaps?? Think of what all he had to give up to do as Christ COMMANDED of him in Acts 9:6? Think perhaps of his even having to leave a Mrs. Saul in the ex/virgin fold? because she would have nothing to do with his nonsense as she might have thought?? And the prestige forfeited! & the sufferings to follow, + he was told to go to this 'church' that he had been having some executed.. [and being told what he MUST to do]??? Sure, and some might loose their false church membership! or even their ministerial salary, + many other supplements or sustenance. And it might be like pulling teeth, huh? So what do most do??? See John 12:42-43

And these ones with their many posts against simple plain truths from the Word itself are 'led' of the Holy Ghost?? Rom. 8:14. Even [teaching] that Christ will be in the church's who have [OPEN SIN IN THEM!]

'And He came unto His OWN, and His own received Him NOT'! John 1:11

Matt. 27

[24] When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

[25] Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
(remember that theses are His Own! And Eccl. 3:15 finds these ones again in today's setting! Heb. 6:6 +!!!!)

[26] Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
[27] Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
[28] And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

[29] And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
[30] And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.
[31] And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

And what did his own do? They cried out that 'we have NO King but Caesar.! (John 19:15) PARTAKERS FOR SURE!


John 10;

[16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

(OK: If Christ were in these Rev. 17:5 false abominable folds, why are they required to leave? And still yet! when Christ has been put out with these satanic false doctrines, who now takes His place? again Rev. 3:9)

Rev.17
[1] And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. (false satanic garbage doctrines!)
[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (see Daniel 7:25)
[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
(even inside of this mess there are ignorant ones who still will leave this trite, Not of only false doctrines taught for years, but also the daily documented open filth of the priests!)
[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (can this stuff be spotted by Christ very own??)

Rev.18
[1] And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

(this message is CLEAR for those who have their 'spiritual' eyes open! what Christian could miss seeing 'THE' ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH ONES???? And take note that the Holy Ghost has enlightened the SINCERE ONES! Acts 3:19... but most will not recognize the latter Rain anymore than did most the Early Rain of the Holy Spirit!)

[2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
[3] For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
[5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
[6] Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

 
Elijah674 said:
--Elijah here:
Let me tell you how I see the Word teaching it....

I read your post twice and am not able to ascertain your point. Could you please clarify what you are trying to say, if you desire a reasonable response? Are you trying to say that Christ only dwells in the perfect??? That He would not even consider coming to a sinner??? :confused

Regards
 
I see the the organized religious system that many see as representing Christianity as a hospital of sorts; an emergency clinic for those who are spiritually sick. It doesn't take any spiritual discernment to find these....even a cab driver can take you to one. Once there, a person is brought into contact with many other diseased sufferers. A hospital is not the healthiest place to be in as it is the center for all types of diseases.

Notice the sign of the times. Hospitals now are bercoming more and more unsafe as they are become a breeding ground for viruses and super-bugs. So it is with the modern church system.

Those who are healthy should leave the system to pursue a life in the true church among the brethren in accordance with the Spirit and biblical practice. One needs to be spiritually awake and healthy in order to discern the Body of Christ.
 
Adullam said:
I see the the organized religious system that many see as representing Christianity as a hospital of sorts; an emergency clinic for those who are spiritually sick. It doesn't take any spiritual discernment to find these....even a cab driver can take you to one. Once there, a person is brought into contact with many other diseased sufferers. A hospital is not the healthiest place to be in as it is the center for all types of diseases.

Notice the sign of the times. Hospitals now are bercoming more and more unsafe as they are become a breeding ground for viruses and super-bugs. So it is with the modern church system.

Those who are healthy should leave the system to pursue a life in the true church among the brethren in accordance with the Spirit and biblical practice. One needs to be spiritually awake and healthy in order to discern the Body of Christ.

So are you agreeing with my [ post] that has [the Word Of God DOCUMENTED] in it?
It seems that most want to be foirgiven while living in OPEN DOCUMENTED SIN. I do not think that, that is your thinking.
--Elijah
 
I just want to interject a note of encouragement for Richard here. I am not ready at this time to put forth a statement here in regards to this thread in full as I don't know how I can organize my thoughts on the matter constructively. I do agree with Richard here and I see fault with the arguments against him. Lots of believers are blinded by the church, not a personal attack on anyone or a generalization. I challenge anyone to follow the roots of their church and the beliefs they believe so much in and understand how they have come to be. Someone mentioned earlier something about reforming the church. How many times in history has the church been reformed and what do we have?? It teaches in the bible that Christ's church will never fall. It also teaches about division and separation. When you look at the history of the church and see nothing but division and separation and false doctrines coming into play its kind of hard to say that the church in this sense is the true church. I also don't know how a protestant can say the catholics are wrong but they are right, when the protestant church stems from the catholic church. If we started out with faulty logic how can we be sure we changed that? Judge everything by its fruit and I will stand by the fact that there are a lot beliefs within organized religion, christianity or others, that are nothing more than man's idea and don't reflect the Truth as put forth in Scriptures judging from their fruit. Satan doesn't lie, he's a deceiver. In order to be deceived one doesn't know they are deceived and yes the same can be said about me, but we must pray continually that God opens our eyes to the truth. When you enter into the study of Scripture sure of you beliefs are you able to be taught by the Holy Spirit??


Well this even dragged out for a quick comment lol. I leave my statement as this for now. If you want to ask me a question in the honest attempt to learn truth or understand where I am coming from don't hesitate to ask. Please refrain from personal attacks.
 
Elijah674 said:
So are you agreeing with my [ post] that has [the Word Of God DOCUMENTED] in it?
It seems that most want to be foirgiven while living in OPEN DOCUMENTED SIN. I do not think that, that is your thinking.
--Elijah

Are you refering to the "once saved, always saved" idea? I realize that many Christians appear to have that attitude, but in God's eyes, we all continue to fall short from time to time.

I agree with Adullam, the Church is a hospital for sinners, but it doesn't follow that the Church is "unhealthy" because one can catch diseases in a hospital... One doesn't have to go to the Church to "catch" spiritual diseases. To suggest otherwise is a naive attitude that does not take into account the reality of the world we live in.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Elijah674 said:
So are you agreeing with my [ post] that has [the Word Of God DOCUMENTED] in it?
It seems that most want to be foirgiven while living in OPEN DOCUMENTED SIN. I do not think that, that is your thinking.
--Elijah

Are you refering to the "once saved, always saved" idea? I realize that many Christians appear to have that attitude, but in God's eyes, we all continue to fall short from time to time.

I agree with Adullam, the Church is a hospital for sinners, but it doesn't follow that the Church is "unhealthy" because one can catch diseases in a hospital... One doesn't have to go to the Church to "catch" spiritual diseases. To suggest otherwise is a naive attitude that does not take into account the reality of the world we live in.

Regards


While I agree with FDS that spiritual diseases are not only caught in the temporal system that is designed (by men) to alleviate such, it is wise to be cautious and to test every spirit leaving nothing to "chance."
 
Adullam said:
While I agree with FDS that spiritual diseases are not only caught in the temporal system that is designed (by men) to alleviate such, it is wise to be cautious and to test every spirit leaving nothing to "chance."

Relying on yourself does not eliminate the "chance" you speak of... it merely eliminates the possibility that you may hear a difference of opinion from someone else who may be more wise and spiritually aware. Individuals are much more exposed to danger of such things as self-delusion.

Regards
 
Just wondering aloud, does anyone around here rely on God's Word?? Jer. 17:5 :crying

--Elijah
 
francisdesales said:
Adullam said:
While I agree with FDS that spiritual diseases are not only caught in the temporal system that is designed (by men) to alleviate such, it is wise to be cautious and to test every spirit leaving nothing to "chance."

Relying on yourself does not eliminate the "chance" you speak of... it merely eliminates the possibility that you may hear a difference of opinion from someone else who may be more wise and spiritually aware. Individuals are much more exposed to danger of such things as self-delusion.

Regards


A tree is known by it's fruit.
 
francis wrote:

It is a good sign that people call for reform within the Church. It is prophetic, in many ways.... Reform happens WITHIN the Church.

hi francis,

I took the liberty to edit your paragraph to focus on an issue that we have previously corresponded about.

If the call to reform happened from within the church all would agree that is a good sign, but it does not follow that the call to reform will necessarily be heeded. In the event that the call is not heeded within the church - the call to reform then has to come from outside the church. If the reform is necessary to prevent serious crime or to bring a criminal to justice, the call is all the more urgent because the affect upon the body of Christ is all the more devastating.

Only in this way can it be guaranteed that no one in the employment of the church (eg priests or bishops) are above the law or protected by the church and placed beyond the reach of justice. To do otherwise would implicate the church in the guilt of the offender/criminal.

blessings
 
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