The Conclusion of Acts 15 !

[JLB]

http://jerusalemcouncil.org/articles...e-commandment/

I don't see a problem with this.

I think you misinterpret as has already been said in this thread.

Here is what they are teaching as far as righteousness.

“It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the LORD our G-d, just as He commanded us.

Here is what Paul taught -

and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

You my friend clearly misunderstand what they teach. Clearly.


JLB

 

[smaller]

A lot of believers justify their particular flavors of Grace doctrines using their quote mines.

Galatians is a favorite of anti-Law believers. Paul utterly dispells any notions of Christian lawlessness by the time we get to chapter 5.

Some of these same say that LOVE does not murder or steal or commit adultery, etc, ect. If that's the case how is the Law any different?

And yeah, believe it or not christians still sin and still break both Law and Love. Every last one of us.

It's difficult territory, but there are solutions for anyone who is honest about the subject matter.

We all love to heap Grace upon ourselves.

Grace justifies the evil and sin in no man.

Legalists love to think they are legally obedient and temporarily sinless. But they are factually neither.

s

 

[JLB]

Here is what Messianic Judaism teaches about keeping the New Covenant.

http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/giyur/keeping-the-covenant/

Questions

• Does keeping the Covenant include getting circumcised?
  Some ask if “keeping the Covenant†includes keeping the Torah’s teaching on circumcision for males. It most certainly it does! If it’s in the Torah, then the Messiah taught it! He can only teach G-d’s commands, and this includes obedience to Him and His ways as instructed in the entire Torah, down to every jot and tittle.
• Does keeping the Covenant mean converting to Judaism?
  Others ask if circumcision is required, is then conversion to Judaism required as part of keeping the Covenant? The answer is: Yes it is. As a Covenant member, and a disciple of Yeshua, your ultimate obligation is to become his disciple and follow Him. This means obeying the Torah, and by obeying the Torah you are required to convert to Judaism in order to fulfill the mitzvot (commandments) the Master taught his disciples to follow (which is the Torah of Moses), which includes observing the Passover “in remembrance†of Him, and which the Torah teaches of the Passover: “no alien may eat of it.†(Exodus 12:43)

Clearly teaching believers to "keep the law" and be circumcised.


This is another Gospel, as taught in the New Testament.


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The big problem I have with all this is that they claim (whoever they are) that they represent messianic judaism but they don't.
I recently saw a short movie my friend loaned me showing messianic jews in Israel (about 200 small congregations in all, mostly meeting in homes).
I came away with the impression that they believe just as you and I do.
So, whoever this Jerusalem Council is, I don't know who they are representing.

 

[JLB]

So, whoever this Jerusalem Council is, I don't know who they are representing.

They represent -
A Global Association of Orthodox Jewish Believers in Messiah Yeshua

These teachings are spreading very quickly.

Psalms 119 ministry teaches the same thing.

There are many, and this is spreading quickly.


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So, whoever this Jerusalem Council is, I don't know who they are representing.

They represent -
A Global Association of Orthodox Jewish Believers in Messiah Yeshua

These teachings are spreading very quickly.

Psalms 119 ministry teaches the same thing.

There are many, and this is spreading quickly.


JLB

Yes, I agree.

 

[Ryan]

So, whoever this Jerusalem Council is, I don't know who they are representing.

They represent -
A Global Association of Orthodox Jewish Believers in Messiah Yeshua

These teachings are spreading very quickly.

Psalms 119 ministry teaches the same thing.

There are many, and this is spreading quickly.


JLB

I don't come on here much nowadays, but this perked my interest.

Yes it is spreading because people are hungry and desire to walk and live their life according to how our Master and Savior Jesus lived. Messianic Judasim whether it be affiliated within a larger body of other Messianic congregations, or independently, is a movement that is spreading quickly and you act like it's a bad thing. When church membership is waning, there is a body that is experiencing growth and you are threatened by it? We are working the harvest for the Kingdom, not for ourselves. I don't care whether you call yourself a Christian, Catholic, Seventh Day, etc, it is souls we should all be striving for to reach. false doctrines abound in every movement I have mentioned including Messianic Judaism. Some intentional, some not. Messianic Judaism is a movement that at its heart is to observe and practice the faith that Jesus walked and lived out. Why is that wrong? Wanting to walk in our Master's footsteps is now sinful?

Jeremiah 6:16
Thus says the Lord, “Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’

The Lord does not change. The ancient paths are still the good paths. The ancient path is the exact same path Jesus walked.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So, whoever this Jerusalem Council is, I don't know who they are representing.

They represent -
A Global Association of Orthodox Jewish Believers in Messiah Yeshua

These teachings are spreading very quickly.

Psalms 119 ministry teaches the same thing.

There are many, and this is spreading quickly.


JLB

I don't come on here much nowadays, but this perked my interest.

Yes it is spreading because people are hungry and desire to walk and live their life according to how our Master and Savior Jesus lived. Messianic Judasim whether it be affiliated within a larger body of other Messianic congregations, or independently, is a movement that is spreading quickly and you act like it's a bad thing. When church membership is waning, there is a body that is experiencing growth and you are threatened by it? We are working the harvest for the Kingdom, not for ourselves. I don't care whether you call yourself a Christian, Catholic, Seventh Day, etc, it is souls we should all be striving for to reach. false doctrines abound in every movement I have mentioned including Messianic Judaism. Some intentional, some not. Messianic Judaism is a movement that at its heart is to observe and practice the faith that Jesus walked and lived out. Why is that wrong? Wanting to walk in our Master's footsteps is now sinful?

Jeremiah 6:16
Thus says the Lord, “Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’

The Lord does not change. The ancient paths are still the good paths. The ancient path is the exact same path Jesus walked.

Hi Ryan

 

[Ryan]

So, whoever this Jerusalem Council is, I don't know who they are representing.

They represent -
A Global Association of Orthodox Jewish Believers in Messiah Yeshua

These teachings are spreading very quickly.

Psalms 119 ministry teaches the same thing.

There are many, and this is spreading quickly.


JLB

I don't come on here much nowadays, but this perked my interest.

Yes it is spreading because people are hungry and desire to walk and live their life according to how our Master and Savior Jesus lived. Messianic Judasim whether it be affiliated within a larger body of other Messianic congregations, or independently, is a movement that is spreading quickly and you act like it's a bad thing. When church membership is waning, there is a body that is experiencing growth and you are threatened by it? We are working the harvest for the Kingdom, not for ourselves. I don't care whether you call yourself a Christian, Catholic, Seventh Day, etc, it is souls we should all be striving for to reach. false doctrines abound in every movement I have mentioned including Messianic Judaism. Some intentional, some not. Messianic Judaism is a movement that at its heart is to observe and practice the faith that Jesus walked and lived out. Why is that wrong? Wanting to walk in our Master's footsteps is now sinful?

Jeremiah 6:16
Thus says the Lord, “Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’

The Lord does not change. The ancient paths are still the good paths. The ancient path is the exact same path Jesus walked.

Hi Ryan

Hello Allen...lol

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't come on here much nowadays, but this perked my interest.

Yes it is spreading because people are hungry and desire to walk and live their life according to how our Master and Savior Jesus lived. Messianic Judasim whether it be affiliated within a larger body of other Messianic congregations, or independently, is a movement that is spreading quickly and you act like it's a bad thing. When church membership is waning, there is a body that is experiencing growth and you are threatened by it? We are working the harvest for the Kingdom, not for ourselves. I don't care whether you call yourself a Christian, Catholic, Seventh Day, etc, it is souls we should all be striving for to reach. false doctrines abound in every movement I have mentioned including Messianic Judaism. Some intentional, some not. Messianic Judaism is a movement that at its heart is to observe and practice the faith that Jesus walked and lived out. Why is that wrong? Wanting to walk in our Master's footsteps is now sinful?

Jeremiah 6:16
Thus says the Lord, “Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’

The Lord does not change. The ancient paths are still the good paths. The ancient path is the exact same path Jesus walked.

Hi Ryan

Hello Allen...lol

Hey Ryan, because of you, I've come to realize that messianic judaism isn't the same everywhere.
Just as if you were a southern baptist and then went to a full gospel independent church, you would soon find out that those within christianity do not all believe the same.
And I had to go through that too.
But it's good to hear from you and I know you will help straighten things out here.

 

[JLB]

Messianic Judasim whether it be affiliated within a larger body of other Messianic congregations, or independently, is a movement that is spreading quickly and you act like it's a bad thing.

Messianic Judaism teaches that a believer needs to be Circumcised.

Messianic Judaism teaches that a believer needs to return to the Torah.

Messianic Judaism teaches that "keeping the Covenant of the New Testament" means that a believer needs to be Circumcised and keep the law.

Do you believe these things?

If you don't believe these things then just say no.

If you do believe these things and think that is what believers in Christ should do then please say yes.


JLB

 

[Ryan]

I don't come on here much nowadays, but this perked my interest.

Yes it is spreading because people are hungry and desire to walk and live their life according to how our Master and Savior Jesus lived. Messianic Judasim whether it be affiliated within a larger body of other Messianic congregations, or independently, is a movement that is spreading quickly and you act like it's a bad thing. When church membership is waning, there is a body that is experiencing growth and you are threatened by it? We are working the harvest for the Kingdom, not for ourselves. I don't care whether you call yourself a Christian, Catholic, Seventh Day, etc, it is souls we should all be striving for to reach. false doctrines abound in every movement I have mentioned including Messianic Judaism. Some intentional, some not. Messianic Judaism is a movement that at its heart is to observe and practice the faith that Jesus walked and lived out. Why is that wrong? Wanting to walk in our Master's footsteps is now sinful?

Jeremiah 6:16
Thus says the Lord, “Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’

The Lord does not change. The ancient paths are still the good paths. The ancient path is the exact same path Jesus walked.

Hi Ryan

Hello Allen...lol

Hey Ryan, because of you, I've come to realize that messianic judaism isn't the same everywhere.
Just as if you were a southern baptist and then went to a full gospel independent church, you would soon find out that those within christianity do not all believe the same.
And I had to go through that too.
But it's good to hear from you and I know you will help straighten things out here.

Thanks Allen I appreciate the kind words. As I am generally anonymous here I will say freely, even at our Messianic congregation, we have been experiencing some very suspect teachings. We pretty much just go for the worship, prayer time and the fellowship afterwards at the oneg. No congregation, organization is perfect, and I don't want to portray Messianic Judaism is above or below other denominations. We need to start working collectively with other Spirit filled churches and denominations and quit this territorial stuff. IMHO.

 

[farouk]

Re. some comments, above, telling even Gentile believers that might attend a Messianic congregation that they need to be circumcised would seem to undermine the whole idea of depending on the Gospel of the grace of God by which the sinner in simplicity depends in faith on the finished work of Christ.

I don't know how many Messianic congregations would do this.

 

[Ryan]

Messianic Judasim whether it be affiliated within a larger body of other Messianic congregations, or independently, is a movement that is spreading quickly and you act like it's a bad thing.

Messianic Judaism teaches that a believer needs to be Circumcised.

Messianic Judaism teaches that a believer needs to return to the Torah.

Messianic Judaism teaches that "keeping the Covenant of the New Testament" means that a believer needs to be Circumcised and keep the law.

Do you believe these things?

If you don't believe these things then just say no.

If you do believe these things and think that is what believers in Christ should do then please say yes.


JLB


JLB

I've replied to your remarks on my wall that you had asked me about before. I've addressed this question to the best of my own understanding.

 

[Ryan]

Telling even Gentile believers that might attend a Messianic congregation that they need to be circumcised would seem to undermine the whole idea of depending on the Gospel of the grace of God by which the sinner in simplicity depends in faith on the finished work of Christ.

I don't know how many Messianic congregations would do this.

I have never heard one do this. It's like saying you can't attend unless you wear tzitzits.

 

[farouk]

Telling even Gentile believers that might attend a Messianic congregation that they need to be circumcised would seem to undermine the whole idea of depending on the Gospel of the grace of God by which the sinner in simplicity depends in faith on the finished work of Christ.

I don't know how many Messianic congregations would do this.

I have never heard one do this. It's like saying you can't attend unless you wear tzitzits.

There must be different varieties that differ markedly.

 

[JLB]

Messianic Judasim whether it be affiliated within a larger body of other Messianic congregations, or independently, is a movement that is spreading quickly and you act like it's a bad thing.

Messianic Judaism teaches that a believer needs to be Circumcised.

Messianic Judaism teaches that a believer needs to return to the Torah.

Messianic Judaism teaches that "keeping the Covenant of the New Testament" means that a believer needs to be Circumcised and keep the law.

Do you believe these things?

If you don't believe these things then just say no.

If you do believe these things and think that is what believers in Christ should do then please say yes.


JLB

I've replied to your remarks on my wall that you had asked me about before. I've addressed this question to the best of my own understanding.

Ok, could you address the question so that I could understand what you believe or that others could understand as well.

Please just answer with a simple yes if you believe that believer in Christ should be Circumcised and keep the law.


JLB

 

[farouk]

Messianic Judasim whether it be affiliated within a larger body of other Messianic congregations, or independently, is a movement that is spreading quickly and you act like it's a bad thing.

Messianic Judaism teaches that a believer needs to be Circumcised.

Messianic Judaism teaches that a believer needs to return to the Torah.

Messianic Judaism teaches that "keeping the Covenant of the New Testament" means that a believer needs to be Circumcised and keep the law.

Do you believe these things?

If you don't believe these things then just say no.

If you do believe these things and think that is what believers in Christ should do then please say yes.


JLB

I've replied to your remarks on my wall that you had asked me about before. I've addressed this question to the best of my own understanding.

Ok, could you address the question so that I could understand or that others could understand as well.

Please just answer with a simple yes if you believe that believer in Christ should be Circumcised and keep the law.


JLB

JLB:

Well, clearly, since Paul withstood Peter to his face in Acts on this very question, it's a no-no.

Blessings.

 

[JLB]

I've replied to your remarks on my wall that you had asked me about before. I've addressed this question to the best of my own understanding.

Ok, could you address the question so that I could understand or that others could understand as well.

Please just answer with a simple yes if you believe that believer in Christ should be Circumcised and keep the law.


JLB

JLB:

Well, clearly, since Paul withstood Peter to his face in Acts on this very question, it's a no-no.

Blessings.

Farouk,

You may find this hard to believe, but the reason I started this thread is that there are those who teach that the conclusion of Acts 15 was that believers are supposed to Keep the law and be Circumcised.

That is what Messianic Judaism teaches and that is what Psalms 119 Ministry teaches. http://www.testeverything.net/our-teachings

They teach that the jerusalem Council in acts 15 over ruled Paul and upheld the "believing Pharisee's' that believers should keep the law, and that the way they should start out these new converts slowly to learn the law of Moses by teaching theme these simple things first - that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Then they teach that these new Gentile converts should attend a synagog regularly to indoctrinate them into full Judaism.

To substantiate this teaching they refer to verse 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Verse 21 is their iron clad scripture that states that Gentile Converts are to keep the law of Moses and be Circumcised. They say that is what James meant by saying that.

Then they point to Acts 16 where Paul takes Timothy and Circumcises him as proof that Paul was overruled at Jerusalem.

That is why Ryan believes what he does.

Because that is what Messianic Judaism teaches.


JLB

 

[farouk]

I've replied to your remarks on my wall that you had asked me about before. I've addressed this question to the best of my own understanding.

Ok, could you address the question so that I could understand or that others could understand as well.

Please just answer with a simple yes if you believe that believer in Christ should be Circumcised and keep the law.


JLB

JLB:

Well, clearly, since Paul withstood Peter to his face in Acts on this very question, it's a no-no.

Blessings.

Farouk,

You may find this hard to believe, but the reason I started this thread is that there are those who teach that the conclusion of Acts 15 was that believers are supposed to Keep the law and be Circumcised.

That is what Messianic Judaism teaches and that is what Psalms 119 Ministry teaches. http://www.testeverything.net/our-teachings

They teach that the jerusalem Council in acts 15 over ruled Paul and upheld the "believing Pharisee's' that believers should keep the law, and that the way they should start out these new converts slowly to learn the law of Moses by teaching theme these simple things first - that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Then they teach that these new Gentile converts should attend a synagog regularly to indoctrinate them into full Judaism.

To substantiate this teaching they refer to verse 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Verse 21 is their iron clad scripture that states that Gentile Converts are to keep the law of Moses and be Circumcised. They say that is what James meant by saying that.

Then they point to Acts 16 where Paul takes Timothy and Circumcises him as proof that Paul was overruled at Jerusalem.

That is why Ryan believes what he does.

Because that is what Messianic Judaism teaches.


JLB

JLB:

Well, interesting; I can't speak for Ryan.

But clearly when Paul withstood Peter in Acts, it was to counter the idea that circumcision (signifying putting converts under the bondage of the law) was supposedly compulsory.

Whereas when Paul circumcised Timothy, who was steeped in the Old Testament Scriptures and would have been in the orbit of not a few Jews, it wasn't a matter of compulsion, but rather a voltunary act on Timothy's part in submitting to it in order that he could have a hearing among Jews, not that he would be teaching that it was necessary.

Blessings.